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Subject: Computer Bots

Were it so easy.

Yes

  • 10.26.2009 11:42 PM PDT

No thanks.

  • 10.27.2009 12:01 AM PDT

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[Edited on 10.27.2009 12:03 AM PDT]

  • 10.27.2009 12:02 AM PDT

bungie has proven that a bunch of monkeys sitting in front of keyboards can randomly type out a masterpiece. the thing is, when you go to play the masterpiece, you cant help but notice all the monkey s**t smeared all over it.

it gets real old having to wait months for someone like mlg to clean off all the monkey poo.

Posted by: PrimeGhost548
Posted by: Eagleznest
No bots simply aren't smart enough to compete on 3 dimensional maps.
I beg to differ. 007 NightFire was 3 dimensional, and the Bots could be set from easy to difficult. That had a good system.

you can program bots to have 0% to 100% accuracy, and everything in between. you can program them to wander around a simplistic map and notice enemies gears or firefight style. those maps are so simple for a reason. they consist of several spawn points for enemies, who proceed down one of several obvious travel paths, having only to navigate around small blocks of cover like cars, columns, and rocks.

you cant program them to know when to rush snipe tower on guardian, when to camp top gold to wait for camo, when to strongside to safety, when to bunny hop, when to go for the oddball, when to wait for your teamates, or when you need to sit in your base and wait for a powerdrain to deal with the warthog thats outside spawn killing.

since bungie cant figure out which weapons, equipment, or positions are powerful (nothing wrong with putting ov, carbine, needler, and snipe at snipe tower, and expecting the other team to be able to kill them with 1 br and a 90 second camo, right?). their ai would end up choosing useless weapons and dying constantly while trying to get to terrible positions.

add in ridiculously customizible maps and weapon layouts through forge and it gets worse. now they are getting stuck on boxes, crates, unable to find simple jumps to higher positions and unaware of the existance or value of say, rockets or lazer in the corner of the map. getting a forged set of rockets on guardian= instant win. rockets on sandtrap= less valueable then a br.

[Edited on 10.27.2009 12:20 AM PDT]

  • 10.27.2009 12:10 AM PDT

Ever heard of Pod Bot for counter-strike. Wasn't made by vavlve, most likely a 40 year old hacker but those bots are pretty damn good and this is 10 years ago made by just fans, they even respond to what ever you say in the chat (well not exactly the answers you expect) but still the whole of bungie should be able to pull off bot system.

  • 10.27.2009 1:39 AM PDT

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I doubt it, I can't imagine Bungie doing something like this, plus, Halo isn't the type of game that would have very "Team worthy" bots, even if they were as hard as they could get.

  • 10.27.2009 1:41 AM PDT

Posted by: xReconAssassinX
I doubt it, I can't imagine Bungie doing something like this, plus, Halo isn't the type of game that would have very "Team worthy" bots, even if they were as hard as they could get.


They don't have to be as skilled as a human player or be able to strategize like a human. Even if all they were capable of was basic attack and evade and had some decent pathfinding so they didn't get hung up on objects they could be of use to a team. You could even incorporate them into a custom gametype like VIP only the VIP was a bot. It would offer some challenge as you couldn't direct the bot but had to follow it around and make sure it was protected.

All I know is that if done right the bots could be a welcome feature for Halo, and it's not like they would have to be used, but it would be nice to have the option.

  • 10.27.2009 2:03 AM PDT

it should IF it doesnt affect the rest of the gameplay.

  • 10.27.2009 2:29 AM PDT

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Posted by: GhostlyInferno
They don't have to be as skilled as a human player or be able to strategize like a human. Even if all they were capable of was basic attack and evade and had some decent pathfinding so they didn't get hung up on objects they could be of use to a team. You could even incorporate them into a custom gametype like VIP only the VIP was a bot. It would offer some challenge as you couldn't direct the bot but had to follow it around and make sure it was protected.

All I know is that if done right the bots could be a welcome feature for Halo, and it's not like they would have to be used, but it would be nice to have the option.

Actually, if you think about it, if the Bots aren't equal to the Human players, than the Team without the Bots could get easy kills off of them.

Just imagine how many people would come complaining on the Forums about how they lost because there Bots sucked and kept rushing the enemies.

  • 10.27.2009 2:30 AM PDT

Posted by: LA HARRIS
YESSSSSS for those very annoying days when your internet doesnt feel like working.


Bots all the way!
- for those of you that think it wont work then play gears of war 2

Gears of war is much simpler than halo. Halo has tons of levels, weapons vehicles, places that you have to jump and many other things. Gears also has a cover system which makes it really easy to program them.

  • 10.27.2009 7:56 AM PDT

Posted by: eraseme
Posted by: PrimeGhost548
Posted by: Eagleznest
No bots simply aren't smart enough to compete on 3 dimensional maps.
I beg to differ. 007 NightFire was 3 dimensional, and the Bots could be set from easy to difficult. That had a good system.

you can program bots to have 0% to 100% accuracy, and everything in between. you can program them to wander around a simplistic map and notice enemies gears or firefight style. those maps are so simple for a reason. they consist of several spawn points for enemies, who proceed down one of several obvious travel paths, having only to navigate around small blocks of cover like cars, columns, and rocks.

you cant program them to know when to rush snipe tower on guardian, when to camp top gold to wait for camo, when to strongside to safety, when to bunny hop, when to go for the oddball, when to wait for your teamates, or when you need to sit in your base and wait for a powerdrain to deal with the warthog thats outside spawn killing.

since bungie cant figure out which weapons, equipment, or positions are powerful (nothing wrong with putting ov, carbine, needler, and snipe at snipe tower, and expecting the other team to be able to kill them with 1 br and a 90 second camo, right?). their ai would end up choosing useless weapons and dying constantly while trying to get to terrible positions.

add in ridiculously customizible maps and weapon layouts through forge and it gets worse. now they are getting stuck on boxes, crates, unable to find simple jumps to higher positions and unaware of the existance or value of say, rockets or lazer in the corner of the map. getting a forged set of rockets on guardian= instant win. rockets on sandtrap= less valueable then a br.

Thanks for agreeing with me. And to all the people who don't have live, why don't you just play firefight or campaign?

  • 10.27.2009 8:00 AM PDT
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Posted by: Achronos
It isn't our shiznit anymore.

The reasons I am against this are:
1.) Creating good AI is arguably the hardest thing a programmer has to create in video games, which would distract attention from other more profitable gametypes that programmer could be making.
2.) Why make bots when humans are infinitely better?
3.) Pleasing the offline crowd isn't exactly Microsoft's (or even Bungie's) thing, as they have showed time and again that they like online players better than offline players (and sometimes they practically force the offline player to get live to keep up with the new content). Simply put, Microsoft doesn't give a -blam!- about offline players.

  • 10.27.2009 8:21 AM PDT

Posted by: xReconAssassinX
Posted by: GhostlyInferno
They don't have to be as skilled as a human player or be able to strategize like a human. Even if all they were capable of was basic attack and evade and had some decent pathfinding so they didn't get hung up on objects they could be of use to a team. You could even incorporate them into a custom gametype like VIP only the VIP was a bot. It would offer some challenge as you couldn't direct the bot but had to follow it around and make sure it was protected.

All I know is that if done right the bots could be a welcome feature for Halo, and it's not like they would have to be used, but it would be nice to have the option.

Actually, if you think about it, if the Bots aren't equal to the Human players, than the Team without the Bots could get easy kills off of them.

Just imagine how many people would come complaining on the Forums about how they lost because there Bots sucked and kept rushing the enemies.


Of course it wouldn't be fair to have 1 team with bots and 1 with all humans, which is why bots would only be allowed for custom gametypes and offline play. Matchmaking would be strictly for human players. If people choose to use them in custom gametypes it's their choice so they would have no reason to complain.

  • 10.27.2009 9:22 AM PDT

Posted by: P3P5I
The reasons I am against this are:
1.) Creating good AI is arguably the hardest thing a programmer has to create in video games, which would distract attention from other more profitable gametypes that programmer could be making.
2.) Why make bots when humans are infinitely better?
3.) Pleasing the offline crowd isn't exactly Microsoft's (or even Bungie's) thing, as they have showed time and again that they like online players better than offline players (and sometimes they practically force the offline player to get live to keep up with the new content). Simply put, Microsoft doesn't give a -blam!- about offline players.


1. Bungie already has full working AI code as seen in firefight. This is plenty sophisticated enough for the types of bots I would like to see.
2. Why not make bots? I don't see why you would be against having a feature that would only add to the gameplay and wouldn't take anything away from it. If you could fully customize their health, shields, speed, etc...you could create a whole new set of custom gametypes. Not to mention the benefit to people without internet or Live.
3. Since when does Microsoft not like their offline players? I'm pretty sure to Microsoft any 360 owner is a good 360 owner. Plus they do try and please the offline customer by offering plenty of offline options. People without live can download updates via xbox.com and burn them to a disc, a lot of blockbuster games with downloadable content get a rereleased edition which has all the extras on disc. Or how about Bungie's Halo 2 map pack which you could purchase all the extra maps on a disc for the offline peeps. Oh yeah...all of that tells me that Microsoft and Bungie doesn't give a **** about their offline customers.

[Edited on 10.27.2009 9:41 AM PDT]

  • 10.27.2009 9:36 AM PDT
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I would love to see this in BTB. A game with over 100 players or so would be a dream come true.

100 players
Giant maps= Christians dream.

  • 10.27.2009 9:43 AM PDT
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Posted by: Achronos
It isn't our shiznit anymore.

Posted by: GhostlyInferno
1. Bungie already has full working AI code as seen in firefight. This is plenty sophisticated enough for the types of bots I would like to see.

Sure, but you don't make up the general consensus. You said you wanted bots so offline players could hone their skills and improve themselves. This is impossible with bots because they are very predictable and can be outplayed by anyone with at least a little game experience. The practice needed to make one good or even great with certain weapons (BR?) comes only from fighting against other players. If we fought bots that had the AI sophistication level of firefight, you would be fighting a few enemies on heroic difficulty (if that because the bots would have to be equal to the player to simulate an actual player). That is why there is so much AI in campaign, it makes up for its own stupidity by throwing mass numbers at you. Firefight AI is just Halo 3 campaign AI. And even that is extremely unsophisticated AI.

2. Why not make bots? I don't see why you would be against having a feature that would only add to the gameplay and wouldn't take anything away from it.
It takes away time that could be spent making other gametypes or improving on existing ones (forge, theater, Campaign, MM, etc.). The opportunity cost is just not worth it imo.

If you could fully customize their health, shields, speed, etc...you could create a whole new set of custom gametypes. Not to mention the benefit to people without internet or Live.
Granted, it would be fun to have bots you could customize. But once you put them in your custom maps (or even default maps) they fail extremely hard, this post explains it rather nicely:

Posted by: eraseme
you can program bots to have 0% to 100% accuracy, and everything in between. you can program them to wander around a simplistic map and notice enemies gears or firefight style. those maps are so simple for a reason. they consist of several spawn points for enemies, who proceed down one of several obvious travel paths, having only to navigate around small blocks of cover like cars, columns, and rocks.

you cant program them to know when to rush snipe tower on guardian, when to camp top gold to wait for camo, when to strongside to safety, when to bunny hop, when to go for the oddball, when to wait for your teamates, or when you need to sit in your base and wait for a powerdrain to deal with the warthog thats outside spawn killing.

since bungie cant figure out which weapons, equipment, or positions are powerful (nothing wrong with putting ov, carbine, needler, and snipe at snipe tower, and expecting the other team to be able to kill them with 1 br and a 90 second camo, right?). their ai would end up choosing useless weapons and dying constantly while trying to get to terrible positions.

add in ridiculously customizible maps and weapon layouts through forge and it gets worse. now they are getting stuck on boxes, crates, unable to find simple jumps to higher positions and unaware of the existance or value of say, rockets or lazer in the corner of the map. getting a forged set of rockets on guardian= instant win. rockets on sandtrap= less valueable then a br.
The technology is simply nonexistent right now.

Posted by: GhostlyInferno
3. Since when does Microsoft not like their offline players? I'm pretty sure to Microsoft any 360 owner is a good 360 owner. Plus they do try and please the offline customer by offering plenty of offline options. People without live can download updates via xbox.com and burn them to a disc, a lot of blockbuster games with downloadable content get a rereleased edition which has all the extras on disc. Or how about Bungie's Halo 2 map pack which you could purchase all the extra maps on a disc for the offline peeps. Oh yeah...all of that tells me that Microsoft and Bungie doesn't give a **** about their offline customers.

It's not that they completely ignore the offline fans, it's that they discriminate against them and the online players by giving the online players so much more content (and often, earlier) than the offline players. Think of offline players as the younger brother, and online the older brother. The younger brother will get those clothes to wear, but the older brother will have worn them first and they become hand-me-downs by the time the younger brother gets them. It's not a very profitable move making a gametype that only helps the offline players when a majority(?) of xbox users have xbox live. It is like making Reach in the needs of MLG (no offense) and not casual players (casual players make up a majority of video game players).

I like the idea of bots in the game, it's just FPS AI sophistication is no where near where it should be to make an at least decent experience.

  • 10.27.2009 1:57 PM PDT

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Firefight. I think thats the best we can hope for.

Bots on a multiplayer map would be too easy to fight unless they ramped up their accuracy to insane H2 Legendary Jackal Sniper stylee. Which would not be fun.

  • 10.27.2009 2:23 PM PDT

Posted by: P3P5I

Sure, but you don't make up the general consensus. You said you wanted bots so offline players could hone their skills and improve themselves. This is impossible with bots because they are very predictable and can be outplayed by anyone with at least a little game experience. The practice needed to make one good or even great with certain weapons (BR?) comes only from fighting against other players. If we fought bots that had the AI sophistication level of firefight, you would be fighting a few enemies on heroic difficulty (if that because the bots would have to be equal to the player to simulate an actual player)


I would disagree. Having any moving target that attacks and evades will improve your skill. Like I said already it won't improve your ability to "outwit" an opponent, but it will definitely improve your accuracy with weapons. You used the BR as an example. The hardest part about killing with the BR is learning to hit the head of a moving target. AI can be a moving target quite easily. It could also help you with sniping learning to lead opponents, it can help you learn the layouts of maps, where weapons are, etc... And who said they have to be equal to a human player? They don't, again, basic attack and evade would be enough for me, and the firefight ai has that and much more.

Posted by: P3P5I
That is why there is so much AI in campaign, it makes up for its own stupidity by throwing mass numbers at you. Firefight AI is just Halo 3 campaign AI. And even that is extremely unsophisticated AI.


How is Firefight AI unsophisticated? I think the enemies dodging and tactics are some of the best I've seen in a game. Not to mention that each enemy type attacks differently based on their strengths.

Posted by: P3P5I
I like the idea of bots in the game, it's just FPS AI sophistication is no where near where it should be to make an at least decent experience.


Yeah, it would be nice to have AI bots that are equal to human players but that technology doesn't exist yet. However, I still would like to see some AI bots even if they are very basic, they could still be of some use and add to the fun of the game. The original Perfect Dark which is over ten years old had bots in it and they were insanely stupid yet I still had fun playing around with them. I just don't think it would take much time for Bungie to tweak the ai they already have, add in some customization options for the bots, and put em in the game. It would only add to the awesomeness that will be Reach and would not take anything away from it. So why people would be against it is beyond me. It would be optional, if you don't like the bots then don't use em.

  • 10.27.2009 11:03 PM PDT

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