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Subject: Proof of a Second Class of Spartan IIs!

In the days of old, there were legends of a land long lost to time. This land was known as Ranna'Mor. Ranna'Mor was said to contain in its borders 7 warriors. These warriors had once unleashed a veritable hell upon the ancient world, until they were locked away. My name is Toriad, and I am one of those warriors. Our return is approaching. Do not run away, do not cower in fear; take solace in your final days, for that is all we can do. -Legend of Ranna'Mor

Since the release of the books "Fall of Reach" and "First Strike" and the ilovebees ARG, Halo fans have been debating the existence of a second class of Spartan II soldiers. I have personally believed they existed for a while, and I am surer of it than ever. Below I have gathered the evidence and can prove at a second class or something similar exists.

To Start, we have a list of every known Spartan II from the 33 that survived the augmentation process, and their status as of the Battle of Reach.

Spartan II Status Up to Battle of Reach
1. SPARTAN-006 Jai (MIA; Grey Team)
2. SPARTAN-008 Li (@Reach)
3. SPARTAN-029 Joshua (@Reach)
4. SPARTAN-030 Vihn (@Reach)
5. SPARTAN-034 Samuel (KIA 2525)
6. SPARTAN-039 Issac (@Reach)
7. SPARTAN-042 Douglas (MIA 2531; Spirit of Fire)
8. SPARTAN-043 William (@Reach)
9. SPARTAN-044 Anton (@Reach)
10. SPARTAN-047 Keiichi (MIA @ First Battle of Arcadia)
11. SPARTAN-051 Kurt (MIA; secretly training Spartan IIIs)
12. SPARTAN-058 Linda (@Reach)
13. SPARTAN-059 Malcolm (@Reach)
14. SPARTAN-062 Maria (Retired)
15. SPARTAN-066 Soren (Unknown; Possibly @ Reach)
16. SPARTAN-087 Kelly (@Reach)
17. SPARTAN-092 Jerome (MIA 2531; Spirit of Fire)
18. SPARTAN-093 Grace (@Reach)
19. SPARTAN-104 Fred (@Reach)
20. SPARTAN-111 Adriana (MIA; Grey Team)
21. SPARTAN-117 John (@Reach)
22. SPARTAN-130 Alice (MIA 2531; Spirit of Fire)
23. SPARTAN-141 Cal (Unknown; Likely @ Reach)
24. James (@ Reach)
25. Mike (MIA; Grey Team)
26. Randal (MIA 2532)
27. Sheila (KIA 2544)
28. "Homecoming Spartan" (Unknown; Possibly @Reach)
29. Unknown 1
30. Unknown 2
31. Unknown 3
32. Unknown 4
33. Unknown 5

There are also an unknown number of Spartans that exist as a part of the Spartan: Black team, a black-ops team of Spartans.

There were 13 confirmed Spartans at Reach. If one were include the 5 unknown Spartans, the Homecoming Spartan, Cal-141, and Soren-066, that would account for 21 Spartans at the battle of Reach. In the Halo Wars timeline and "Halo: Fall of Reach", we are told there are 25 Spartans alive before the battle of Reach, not including Grey Team. A later part of "Fall of Reach" and parts from "Halo: First Strike" tell us that there are 30 Spartans. Going from the lowest number, we would need to account for 4 additional Spartans, or another 9 (taken from the 30 count). Where are these extra Spartans?

Now look at the Reach trailer, specifically at the statement made by Sierra-259: "You've got SPARTANS on the ground, sir. We're not going anywhere." When Red team crashed during "First Strike" there was no transmission made to say they had made it to the Planet's surface, at least, not in the context seen from the trailer. And any confirmation made was not done so by a Sierra-259. Who are the Spartans we hear about in the Trailer? None we currently know of.

Finally, we have the issue of Spartan: Black, the black-ops team featured in the up-coming comic "Spartan: Blood lines". Where do they fit into the picture? Could they be the unknown Spartans listed above? It still does not explain the missing numbers mention earlier.

From the evidence above, there seems to be a high possibility of a Class II of Spartans II's existing, or something like a class II.

Please, do not let this topic die. Help me build and expand on it, if possible. And of course, point out any flaws you can find.

  • 11.06.2009 2:03 PM PDT

I hunt for the Prophet of Contentment, the San 'Shyumm that murdered my son, and stole his birthright, his Energy Sword. They call our species Heretics. They claim to all that our tongues sting, our words a vile poison that feeds on the unworthy. I have seen the true face of Heresy. The head of a gallant warrior lay on the ground. His neck scorched and blistered, scarred by his own blade. I shall retrieve the weapon, and drive it through that bastard's heart! Punishment for his sins is nigh.

Great detail. And definitely an accurate speculation on the possability of Spartan 259 and 3whatever.

I couldn't have put this one better myself.

  • 11.06.2009 2:06 PM PDT

Ugh...

First on a BWU.. yeah, I'm cool.

ODST;MYTHIC Screenshot winner! One of the first to get their hands on the mythic map pack.

It is always a possibility. Also there was a fighting game with a Spartan, and her back story said she was a Spartan II Class II. (I think anyways)

Bungie made that back story. It isn't nessecarily canon, but Bungie went through the work to make a back story for this Spartan, and maybe they carried the idea over onto Reach.

I doubt it, but maybe.

  • 11.06.2009 2:07 PM PDT

I dont know exactly what to call it, but it has something to do with spaggetti, duct tape and razor blades...

-GamerTag- CopSuicide (used to be Weedpot420)

Some very interesting points. As far as the "we've got Spartans on the ground" line, that could've been thrown into the trailer for effect, it sounds BA. I like the other points you made, though. I haven't re-read the books in some time, so I'm not 100% on the accuracy, but I'm sure if this thread survives your theories will be fact-check a dozen or so times.

Good work, dude.

  • 11.06.2009 2:09 PM PDT

I dont know exactly what to call it, but it has something to do with spaggetti, duct tape and razor blades...

-GamerTag- CopSuicide (used to be Weedpot420)

Posted by: POKEY CLYDE
It is always a possibility. Also there was a fighting game with a Spartan, and her back story said she was a Spartan II Class II. (I think anyways)

Bungie made that back story. It isn't nessecarily canon, but Bungie went through the work to make a back story for this Spartan, and maybe they carried the idea over onto Reach.

I doubt it, but maybe.



DoA 3 was the game. Kelly was the Spartan's name, I believe.

Bungie posesses a Halo Bible. I read of it in the latest GI issue. It's under tight lock and key at all times. Maybe someday they will release some snippets. It would be good.

  • 11.06.2009 2:13 PM PDT

In the days of old, there were legends of a land long lost to time. This land was known as Ranna'Mor. Ranna'Mor was said to contain in its borders 7 warriors. These warriors had once unleashed a veritable hell upon the ancient world, until they were locked away. My name is Toriad, and I am one of those warriors. Our return is approaching. Do not run away, do not cower in fear; take solace in your final days, for that is all we can do. -Legend of Ranna'Mor

Posted by: POKEY CLYDE
It is always a possibility. Also there was a fighting game with a Spartan, and her back story said she was a Spartan II Class II. (I think anyways)

Bungie made that back story. It isn't nessecarily canon, but Bungie went through the work to make a back story for this Spartan, and maybe they carried the idea over onto Reach.

I doubt it, but maybe.

That's Spartan-458, Nicole. She was created for Dead or Alive 4. She was going to be the Chief, but Bungie said no, but allowed whoever makes DOA to use the Spartan model. Thus, Nicole-458 was born. I think she was just put into Class II because of it's non-canon status of the time.

  • 11.06.2009 2:14 PM PDT

I hunt for the Prophet of Contentment, the San 'Shyumm that murdered my son, and stole his birthright, his Energy Sword. They call our species Heretics. They claim to all that our tongues sting, our words a vile poison that feeds on the unworthy. I have seen the true face of Heresy. The head of a gallant warrior lay on the ground. His neck scorched and blistered, scarred by his own blade. I shall retrieve the weapon, and drive it through that bastard's heart! Punishment for his sins is nigh.

Posted by: Toa Freak
Posted by: POKEY CLYDE
It is always a possibility. Also there was a fighting game with a Spartan, and her back story said she was a Spartan II Class II. (I think anyways)

Bungie made that back story. It isn't nessecarily canon, but Bungie went through the work to make a back story for this Spartan, and maybe they carried the idea over onto Reach.

I doubt it, but maybe.

That's Spartan-458, Nicole. She was created for Dead or Alive 4. She was going to be the Chief, but Bungie said no, but allowed whoever makes DOA to use the Spartan model. Thus, Nicole-458 was born. I think she was just put into Class II because of it's non-canon status of the time.

It could become Canon though, Halo is full of possibilities.

  • 11.06.2009 2:15 PM PDT

Posted by: Duardo
I'd love to be a 10 year old and tell my mom I'm going on an adventure out into the world catching Pokemon, with her full support. Never mind the fact that there are rapists, criminals, and murders out there, or the fact that I may get killed by a Pokemon.

Luckily I have Pikachu.

Posted by: humpsalot
DoA 4 was the game. Nicole was the Spartan's name, I believe.
Fixed.

  • 11.06.2009 2:15 PM PDT

In the days of old, there were legends of a land long lost to time. This land was known as Ranna'Mor. Ranna'Mor was said to contain in its borders 7 warriors. These warriors had once unleashed a veritable hell upon the ancient world, until they were locked away. My name is Toriad, and I am one of those warriors. Our return is approaching. Do not run away, do not cower in fear; take solace in your final days, for that is all we can do. -Legend of Ranna'Mor

Posted by: Fos Tis Krisis
Posted by: Toa Freak
Posted by: POKEY CLYDE
It is always a possibility. Also there was a fighting game with a Spartan, and her back story said she was a Spartan II Class II. (I think anyways)

Bungie made that back story. It isn't nessecarily canon, but Bungie went through the work to make a back story for this Spartan, and maybe they carried the idea over onto Reach.

I doubt it, but maybe.

That's Spartan-458, Nicole. She was created for Dead or Alive 4. She was going to be the Chief, but Bungie said no, but allowed whoever makes DOA to use the Spartan model. Thus, Nicole-458 was born. I think she was just put into Class II because of it's non-canon status of the time.

It could become Canon though, Halo is full of possibilities.
Well, that's what I'm hoping to prove. Of the original 33 Spartan IIs to survive the augmentation process, only 13, possibly 21 were at Reach, which leave some unaccounted for.

  • 11.06.2009 2:22 PM PDT

I dont know exactly what to call it, but it has something to do with spaggetti, duct tape and razor blades...

-GamerTag- CopSuicide (used to be Weedpot420)

Posted by: The BS Police
Posted by: humpsalot
DoA 4 was the game. Nicole was the Spartan's name, I believe.
Fixed.


Lol, thanks, dude.

  • 11.06.2009 2:24 PM PDT

Signatures are for squares.

Oh FFS...

THERE IS NO GOD DAMN CLASS II's!

It's been proven time and time again that the class II's simply don't exist, they were a cancelled project!

Oh, and The Spartan numbers have been off since First Strike's release. There has been more and more inconsitancy's with each peice of literature. At this point, it's safe to assume that maybe 40 spartans survived the aguementation. Other things have been retconned before.

But honestly, there is TON'S of evidence agaisnt the Class II's existance. Even Joe Staten, the man in charge of Halo 3 and ODST, said it wasn't canon.

[Edited on 11.06.2009 2:31 PM PST]

  • 11.06.2009 2:31 PM PDT

I hunt for the Prophet of Contentment, the San 'Shyumm that murdered my son, and stole his birthright, his Energy Sword. They call our species Heretics. They claim to all that our tongues sting, our words a vile poison that feeds on the unworthy. I have seen the true face of Heresy. The head of a gallant warrior lay on the ground. His neck scorched and blistered, scarred by his own blade. I shall retrieve the weapon, and drive it through that bastard's heart! Punishment for his sins is nigh.

Posted by: privet caboose
Oh FFS...

THERE IS NO GOD DAMN CLASS II's!

It's been proven time and time again that the class II's simply don't exist, they were a cancelled project!

Oh, and The Spartan numbers have been off since First Strike's release. There has been more and more inconsitancy's with each peice of literature. At this point, it's safe to assume that maybe 40 spartans survived the aguementation. Other things have been retconned before.

But honestly, there is TON'S of evidence agaisnt the Class II's existance. Even Joe Staten, the man in charge of Halo 3 and ODST, said it wasn't canon.

Class IIs 'dont' exist, just like Kurt was killed in an anti-grav jetpack accident, and the plasma incident at Paris IV that gave Johnson Boren's Syndrome wasn't spoofed.

[Edited on 11.06.2009 2:37 PM PST]

  • 11.06.2009 2:37 PM PDT

Wash: "I told them Caboose did it. Apparently they already have a short-cut on their keyboard for reporting his teamkills."
Caboose: "Ctrl-F-U"

lukems: "I do a lot of ball holding" http://www.bungie.net/News/content.aspx?type=topnews&cid= 13158

The only evidence toward the Second Class of Spartan IIs was an audiophile in ilovebees, which Bungie has stated is not canon.

  • 11.06.2009 2:40 PM PDT

I hunt for the Prophet of Contentment, the San 'Shyumm that murdered my son, and stole his birthright, his Energy Sword. They call our species Heretics. They claim to all that our tongues sting, our words a vile poison that feeds on the unworthy. I have seen the true face of Heresy. The head of a gallant warrior lay on the ground. His neck scorched and blistered, scarred by his own blade. I shall retrieve the weapon, and drive it through that bastard's heart! Punishment for his sins is nigh.

Posted by: MAS73R 117
The only evidence toward the Second Class of Spartan IIs was an audiophile in ilovebees, which Bungie has stated is not canon.

ILB is cannon, took along time for ToaFreak to get that in my head.

And that wasn't about Spartan II c2s, that was about Spartan Is and the Orion Project.

  • 11.06.2009 2:41 PM PDT

Posted by: MAS73R 117
The only evidence toward the Second Class of Spartan IIs was an audiophile in ilovebees, which Bungie has stated is not canon.

Bungie stated PARTS of it were not canon. We as the community do not know which parts are or aren't.

  • 11.06.2009 2:42 PM PDT

Signatures are for squares.

Posted by: Fos Tis Krisis
Posted by: MAS73R 117
The only evidence toward the Second Class of Spartan IIs was an audiophile in ilovebees, which Bungie has stated is not canon.

ILB is cannon, took along time for ToaFreak to get that in my head.

And that wasn't about Spartan II c2s, that was about Spartan Is and the Orion Project.


JOE STATEN said that ILB was NOT canon. (Joe wrote contact Harvest, and was the man in charge of Halo 3/ODST.)
Frank O Connor then said that it was.
THEN Joe said that the company wasn't sure.

THEN. In the Halo encylcapedia, it has Yasmine, (The class II from ILB) Listed as a class I. MEANING THAT THE CLASS II'S DON'T EXIST.

  • 11.06.2009 2:44 PM PDT

Wash: "I told them Caboose did it. Apparently they already have a short-cut on their keyboard for reporting his teamkills."
Caboose: "Ctrl-F-U"

lukems: "I do a lot of ball holding" http://www.bungie.net/News/content.aspx?type=topnews&cid= 13158

I have an interview to back myself up. What do you have?

  • 11.06.2009 2:45 PM PDT

In the days of old, there were legends of a land long lost to time. This land was known as Ranna'Mor. Ranna'Mor was said to contain in its borders 7 warriors. These warriors had once unleashed a veritable hell upon the ancient world, until they were locked away. My name is Toriad, and I am one of those warriors. Our return is approaching. Do not run away, do not cower in fear; take solace in your final days, for that is all we can do. -Legend of Ranna'Mor

Posted by: privet caboose
Oh FFS...

THERE IS NO GOD DAMN CLASS II's!

It's been proven time and time again that the class II's simply don't exist, they were a cancelled project!

Oh, and The Spartan numbers have been off since First Strike's release. There has been more and more inconsitancy's with each peice of literature. At this point, it's safe to assume that maybe 40 spartans survived the aguementation. Other things have been retconned before.

But honestly, there is TON'S of evidence agaisnt the Class II's existance. Even Joe Staten, the man in charge of Halo 3 and ODST, said it wasn't canon.
Oh, there's 40 survivors now? Where he evidence? Nowhere, that's where.

You are probably one of those sick of hear the argument and just wanna bash my idea with no evidence for yourself. The number inconsistencies you speak of were with the number of Spartans at Reach. Frank O'Connor has said these are not inconsistencies, but that the numbers will be explain in time. I'm trying to find a way to fill those numbers now.

Finally, note that I said this suggests a Spartan II Class II "or something like that".

If you have nothing constructive, don't post.

  • 11.06.2009 2:46 PM PDT

I hunt for the Prophet of Contentment, the San 'Shyumm that murdered my son, and stole his birthright, his Energy Sword. They call our species Heretics. They claim to all that our tongues sting, our words a vile poison that feeds on the unworthy. I have seen the true face of Heresy. The head of a gallant warrior lay on the ground. His neck scorched and blistered, scarred by his own blade. I shall retrieve the weapon, and drive it through that bastard's heart! Punishment for his sins is nigh.

Posted by: privet caboose
Posted by: Fos Tis Krisis
Posted by: MAS73R 117
The only evidence toward the Second Class of Spartan IIs was an audiophile in ilovebees, which Bungie has stated is not canon.

ILB is cannon, took along time for ToaFreak to get that in my head.

And that wasn't about Spartan II c2s, that was about Spartan Is and the Orion Project.


JOE STATEN said that ILB was NOT canon. (Joe wrote contact Harvest, and was the man in charge of Halo 3/ODST.)
Frank O Connor then said that it was.
THEN Joe said that the company wasn't sure.

THEN. In the Halo encylcapedia, it has Yasmine, (The class II from ILB) Listed as a class I. MEANING THAT THE CLASS II'S DON'T EXIST.

That doesn't mean class IIs don't exist, that means that class IIs dont exist for ORION

The Spartan II project was an entirely different project than the Spartan I project, and could very well have a class II of its own.

  • 11.06.2009 2:47 PM PDT

In the days of old, there were legends of a land long lost to time. This land was known as Ranna'Mor. Ranna'Mor was said to contain in its borders 7 warriors. These warriors had once unleashed a veritable hell upon the ancient world, until they were locked away. My name is Toriad, and I am one of those warriors. Our return is approaching. Do not run away, do not cower in fear; take solace in your final days, for that is all we can do. -Legend of Ranna'Mor

Posted by: Fos Tis Krisis
Posted by: privet caboose
Posted by: Fos Tis Krisis
Posted by: MAS73R 117
The only evidence toward the Second Class of Spartan IIs was an audiophile in ilovebees, which Bungie has stated is not canon.

ILB is cannon, took along time for ToaFreak to get that in my head.

And that wasn't about Spartan II c2s, that was about Spartan Is and the Orion Project.


JOE STATEN said that ILB was NOT canon. (Joe wrote contact Harvest, and was the man in charge of Halo 3/ODST.)
Frank O Connor then said that it was.
THEN Joe said that the company wasn't sure.

THEN. In the Halo encylcapedia, it has Yasmine, (The class II from ILB) Listed as a class I. MEANING THAT THE CLASS II'S DON'T EXIST.

That doesn't mean class IIs don't exist, that means that class IIs dont exist for ORION

The Spartan II project was an entirely different project than the Spartan I project, and could very well have a class II of its own.
He was still referring to Spartan II class II.

Anyway. To privet caboose:
You need proof, you can't just come in and start saying random thinks without physical back up. I know about the change of Yasmine's status, but the fact that she is now part of the canon shows that parts of ilovebees can be canon.

Finally, don't put things in caps like that. It makes you look like an idiot. Sorry, but true.

  • 11.06.2009 2:53 PM PDT

Signatures are for squares.

Posted by: Toa Freak
Posted by: privet caboose
Oh FFS...

THERE IS NO GOD DAMN CLASS II's!

It's been proven time and time again that the class II's simply don't exist, they were a cancelled project!

Oh, and The Spartan numbers have been off since First Strike's release. There has been more and more inconsitancy's with each peice of literature. At this point, it's safe to assume that maybe 40 spartans survived the aguementation. Other things have been retconned before.

But honestly, there is TON'S of evidence agaisnt the Class II's existance. Even Joe Staten, the man in charge of Halo 3 and ODST, said it wasn't canon.
Oh, there's 40 survivors now? Where he evidence? Nowhere, that's where.

You are probably one of those sick of hear the argument and just wanna bash my idea with no evidence for yourself. The number inconsistencies you speak of were with the number of Spartans at Reach. Frank O'Connor has said these are not inconsistencies, but that the numbers will be explain in time. I'm trying to find a way to fill those numbers now.

Finally, note that I said this suggests a Spartan II Class II "or something like that".

If you have nothing constructive, don't post.


So, if I don't agree with you, it obviously means that my post wasn't constructive. I guess I'm just going to have to paste the proof of why class II's don't exist, AGAIN.

Anyways, alot of people out there believe that the 5 people in the Banner are Spartan II class II's, but in reality, they don't exist. The class II's were a cancelled project.


After the graduation of the first class of SPARTAN-IIs in 2525, Dr. Halsey began planning for the next wave of Spartans; her efforts, however, ran into problems. There were too few candidates that were in sync with her age restriction protocol and a majority of her funding was going towards MJOLNIR maintenance and construction; leaving little room for continued training efforts. By 2531, the majority of her funds had been diverted and she was forced to postpone the effort indefinitely.


This means that Halsey never got around to finishing the class II's, and Mendez was later called to Ackersons "Spartan III" project.

Spartan III's cost much less the Spartan II's, could be trained faster, and didn't use the costly MJOLNIR armor. These Spartan IIIs could be "produced" in bulk, since they didn't go through as many risky genetic augmentation processes. Since Halsey wasn't on board with this project, they are not class II's.

While we are on the Spartan III subject, I'm going to point out why it is impossible for Spartan IIIs to be a part of this game.

Reach was invaded August 30th, 2552.

All of Alpha company was killed in 2537
All of Beta Company was killed in 2545, except for Tom and Lucy, who went on to train Gamma.
Gamma company didn't receive orders to move off of Oynx until October 2552, After Reach had fell. And Even if Some of Gamma was at Reach (no clue how they would of gotten there) they have different call signs, such as "Ash - G099"


Enough with the Spartan III's.


Now, some people will say, "What about Nicole-458, she was a Class II" The Truth behind that is, Nicole is a non-canon character made up by Bungie to be put in Team Ninjas Dead or Alive 4. Team Ninja originally request Master Chief, but Bungie instead gave them Nicole.

However, the most controversial thing of all, is I love Bees.

In October 2004, Joe was asked if ILB is canon, he replied:
Joe Staten:
"The Bees would not make the cut. Those guys basically did their own thing with very little Bungie input (save for massaging and approving the initial plot-treatment). While we helped define the boundaries of their fiction, we let them do what they thought best. And I think the game turned out great."


However, In July 2006 Frank O Conner stated:
Frankie:
"We're going to have this huge collection of canon and things that we embrace as canon, like I Love Bees and stuff like that."


Yet, that same year, Joe Staten said:
Joe Staten:
We're in the process of figuring out what was canon and what was not, and ILB was part of that neutrality.


I love Bees hasn't been mentioned since then, so I believe it's safe to say that it is NOT canon, especially since it directly violates other canon, such as the time in which characters Shaw and Fujikawa were supposed to have been alive.


Now, that still leaves the question, "What about the higher number spartans, such as "259" and "320"

Now it is very true that we haven't seen a Spartan II with a call sign this high, but that doesn't mean there isn't anyway. MLG Cheewawa was right when he said that the Human controlled planets at that time meant that there was trillions of Humans and children to scan, it's possible that more than 320 children were scanned possible induction, then it was narrowed too 150, then 75.

Hell, it's possible that these "Higher Numbered" spartans were in our face the entire time.

Spartans such as James, Mike, and Cassandra have played large roles in the novels, and Halo canon, and they've never had their numbers stated. Plus, there is still 11 unnamed spartans who's numbers could be higher than 150.



Hopefully, this cleared some things up for you, and you know now why It is possible that these Spartans are part of the original group of spartans, and Not class II's, or spartan III's.

  • 11.06.2009 2:54 PM PDT
  •  | 
  • Senior Legendary Member

Posted by: BTE
Posted by: Xharpan
it doese'nt look nextgen , looks good but not nextgen
If by next-gen you mean crappy, dark and colorless, I agree. It doesnt look next-gen at all.

Im not sure about what to think anymore. There could be another Spartan II group. Hell even some of the Spartans that "didn't survive" the augmentations could have been listed as dead but could have been moved to some other place. As far as the Black OPS and whatnot we will have to wait.

By the way it is stated on the books that 25 Spartans were going to board the PoA for their mission to kidnap a prophet thus 25 is the number of Spartans that fought on Reach.

[Edited on 11.06.2009 3:02 PM PST]

  • 11.06.2009 3:00 PM PDT
  • gamertag: Sullzy
  • user homepage:

pwnin your mother since 89

I want to first point out im not trying to sound like a blunt smart *ss or demean you what your saying, because what you say is very well delivered and has some good factual points.

But its just Science-Fiction, as has already been said there have been mishaps in the Literature when things have been interpreted different i.e the numbers of the Spartan's etc.

And the problem with Fiction is, is that sometimes not every part of a story fits in perfectly, your just meant to blend it in and get on with it, which can be annoying when storys such as this can become so enveloping.

The Halo universe pretty much goes what ever way the scriptwriters etc at Bungie want it to go; its all Fiction, and what they say is Gods word on the matter.

And where you point out areas of the Story that dont fit in, contradict or arent explained, its simply because it was probably left out by the writer as something less important than filling out the whole story and they didnt bother.

  • 11.06.2009 3:01 PM PDT

In the days of old, there were legends of a land long lost to time. This land was known as Ranna'Mor. Ranna'Mor was said to contain in its borders 7 warriors. These warriors had once unleashed a veritable hell upon the ancient world, until they were locked away. My name is Toriad, and I am one of those warriors. Our return is approaching. Do not run away, do not cower in fear; take solace in your final days, for that is all we can do. -Legend of Ranna'Mor

Posted by: privet caboose
Posted by: Toa Freak
Posted by: privet caboose
Oh FFS...

THERE IS NO GOD DAMN CLASS II's!

It's been proven time and time again that the class II's simply don't exist, they were a cancelled project!

Oh, and The Spartan numbers have been off since First Strike's release. There has been more and more inconsitancy's with each peice of literature. At this point, it's safe to assume that maybe 40 spartans survived the aguementation. Other things have been retconned before.

But honestly, there is TON'S of evidence agaisnt the Class II's existance. Even Joe Staten, the man in charge of Halo 3 and ODST, said it wasn't canon.
Oh, there's 40 survivors now? Where he evidence? Nowhere, that's where.

You are probably one of those sick of hear the argument and just wanna bash my idea with no evidence for yourself. The number inconsistencies you speak of were with the number of Spartans at Reach. Frank O'Connor has said these are not inconsistencies, but that the numbers will be explain in time. I'm trying to find a way to fill those numbers now.

Finally, note that I said this suggests a Spartan II Class II "or something like that".

If you have nothing constructive, don't post.


So, if I don't agree with you, it obviously means that my post wasn't constructive. I guess I'm just going to have to paste the proof of why class II's don't exist, AGAIN.

Anyways, alot of people out there believe that the 5 people in the Banner are Spartan II class II's, but in reality, they don't exist. The class II's were a cancelled project.


After the graduation of the first class of SPARTAN-IIs in 2525, Dr. Halsey began planning for the next wave of Spartans; her efforts, however, ran into problems. There were too few candidates that were in sync with her age restriction protocol and a majority of her funding was going towards MJOLNIR maintenance and construction; leaving little room for continued training efforts. By 2531, the majority of her funds had been diverted and she was forced to postpone the effort indefinitely.


This means that Halsey never got around to finishing the class II's, and Mendez was later called to Ackersons "Spartan III" project.

Spartan III's cost much less the Spartan II's, could be trained faster, and didn't use the costly MJOLNIR armor. These Spartan IIIs could be "produced" in bulk, since they didn't go through as many risky genetic augmentation processes. Since Halsey wasn't on board with this project, they are not class II's.

While we are on the Spartan III subject, I'm going to point out why it is impossible for Spartan IIIs to be a part of this game.

Reach was invaded August 30th, 2552.

All of Alpha company was killed in 2537
All of Beta Company was killed in 2545, except for Tom and Lucy, who went on to train Gamma.
Gamma company didn't receive orders to move off of Oynx until October 2552, After Reach had fell. And Even if Some of Gamma was at Reach (no clue how they would of gotten there) they have different call signs, such as "Ash - G099"


Enough with the Spartan III's.


Now, some people will say, "What about Nicole-458, she was a Class II" The Truth behind that is, Nicole is a non-canon character made up by Bungie to be put in Team Ninjas Dead or Alive 4. Team Ninja originally request Master Chief, but Bungie instead gave them Nicole.

However, the most controversial thing of all, is I love Bees.

In October 2004, Joe was asked if ILB is canon, he replied:
Joe Staten:
"The Bees would not make the cut. Those guys basically did their own thing with very little Bungie input (save for massaging and approving the initial plot-treatment). While we helped define the boundaries of their fiction, we let them do what they thought best. And I think the game turned out great."


However, In July 2006 Frank O Conner stated:
Frankie:
"We're going to have this huge collection of canon and things that we embrace as canon, like I Love Bees and stuff like that."


Yet, that same year, Joe Staten said:
Joe Staten:
We're in the process of figuring out what was canon and what was not, and ILB was part of that neutrality.


I love Bees hasn't been mentioned since then, so I believe it's safe to say that it is NOT canon, especially since it directly violates other canon, such as the time in which characters Shaw and Fujikawa were supposed to have been alive.


Now, that still leaves the question, "What about the higher number spartans, such as "259" and "320"

Now it is very true that we haven't seen a Spartan II with a call sign this high, but that doesn't mean there isn't anyway. MLG Cheewawa was right when he said that the Human controlled planets at that time meant that there was trillions of Humans and children to scan, it's possible that more than 320 children were scanned possible induction, then it was narrowed too 150, then 75.

Hell, it's possible that these "Higher Numbered" spartans were in our face the entire time.

Spartans such as James, Mike, and Cassandra have played large roles in the novels, and Halo canon, and they've never had their numbers stated. Plus, there is still 11 unnamed spartans who's numbers could be higher than 150.



Hopefully, this cleared some things up for you, and you know now why It is possible that these Spartans are part of the original group of spartans, and Not class II's, or spartan III's.
Okay, that's better than some previous posts. I didn't say get out, I wanted you to post and back yourself up, like this.

On topic: To start, I never wanted to discuss the situation with Sierra's 259 and 320. I believe they are Spartans, but it's irrelevant to the topic. Now, you're post has made it clear that parts of ilovebees could be made canon, and that nothing it completely out yet. Joe Staten said that ilovebees was being processed, not that it had been completely ruled out.

Now, look at my original post again. Of the original 33 Spartans, a maximum of 21 are present, when it has been stated that there were 25 or 30 Spartans Present. Again, I am presenting the question of "where did the other 4 come from?" You have made a very impressive argument, I must admit that. But none of it answers the original question.

  • 11.06.2009 3:03 PM PDT

I hunt for the Prophet of Contentment, the San 'Shyumm that murdered my son, and stole his birthright, his Energy Sword. They call our species Heretics. They claim to all that our tongues sting, our words a vile poison that feeds on the unworthy. I have seen the true face of Heresy. The head of a gallant warrior lay on the ground. His neck scorched and blistered, scarred by his own blade. I shall retrieve the weapon, and drive it through that bastard's heart! Punishment for his sins is nigh.

Posted by: privet caboose
However, In July 2006 Frank O Conner stated:
Frankie:
"We're going to have this huge collection of canon and things that we embrace as canon, like I Love Bees and stuff like that."


Yet, that same year, Joe Staten said:
Joe Staten:
We're in the process of figuring out what was canon and what was not, and ILB was part of that neutrality.


I love Bees hasn't been mentioned since then, so I believe it's safe to say that it is NOT canon


What they were talking about with the collection of Canon was the Halo Encyclopedia both of them worked on. In the Halo Encyclopedia, ILB is proven to be Canon. That was their final decision. It IS Canon.

Also, the S2C2 project was delayed indefinitely in 2531. This means that between 2531 and 2552 she had 21 years to continue the project. That is more than long enough to train a batch of Spartans, so it is possible that sometime around 2537-2543 a new batch of recruits could have been brought in. This means that though incomplete, new Spartan IIs COULD HAVE BEEN on Reach training at the time of the invasion. And by that time they would have likely been augmented and capable to participate in the fight.

[Edited on 11.06.2009 3:05 PM PST]

  • 11.06.2009 3:04 PM PDT

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