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  • Subject: The way to balance the Spartan Laser.
Subject: The way to balance the Spartan Laser.
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ya, gotta know who you are...

Having an effective anti-vehicle weapon is essential.
It is balanced.

The laser is dangerous I agree, and it does make using vehicles next to impossible when in the right hands. But a vehicle is just as dangerous with a good driver, and average players can handle gunner duty. Anyone out in the open will be mowed down mercilessly. Why shouldn't it be just as dangerous for a vehicle. There has to be a counter that's just as effective.

The argument you are making is that the counter is too effective. Make the laser a one time use weapon, think of the overshield or any powerup.
Make the power source on the laser expire after so long.
*You tap the battery on the first shot, and it slowly leaks till it's gone. That way you can keep people from holding onto it forever and magically coming out of nowhere with it when you think it's safe to jump in and go for a ride.

It would be a one time use, but have multiple shots at the same time. The laser would be just as effective, but it's presence would be toned down. You would have to wait for it to respawn if you wasted it.

  • 11.09.2009 8:39 PM PDT
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You can't kill what's dead.

Stand. Fight. Resist. S2F.

Posted by: blackstreak1
Who cares.


Shut up, douche bag.

As for the OP, I do like the idea. The homing rockets were a very good anti-vehicle weapon. They gave a good chance of hitting the vehicle, but the driver still have a chance at surviving and dodging the rocket.

  • 11.09.2009 8:44 PM PDT
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Posted by: Methew
Posted by: fifthderelicte
Very good point. On High Ground there is a lot of cover and it's hard for the laser to get set up and get a good shot. On Sand Trap there are two lasers evening out the gameplay, and the vehicles respawn relatively quickly. Not to mention, there are missile pods on the map as well. High Ground doesn't produce much vehicle play, however, which is partially due to the laser. Sand Trap does use a lot of vehicles, but that's because of the fast vehicle respawn to laser respawn ratio, as well as the lasers picking off the other laser guy.

Construct also has a laser, but it's worthless there because you get out BRed before you can ever use it. Also, though Avalanche is large like Sand Trap, lasers stifle the vehicle play of one side significantly. The laser on Last Resort also makes vehicle play hard for the beach team, which is really unnecessary, as it's such a tight map they could be taken out skillfully without it.

Overall I think the laser is too easy to use for how much power it gives. The only maps it works well on without stifling vehicle play for one/both teams or making one team's vehicular arsenal too powerful are tight maps that are extremely infantry focused. The one exception to that is Sand Trap, which is so open and only contains one sniper rifle, so lasers have to shoot at each other to take the other one out for their team, wasting shots. Maps can be changed to help gameplay with the current laser, but overall this laser is too good without an appropriate tradeoff. I can't believe people are actually arguing against making something more skillful to use - especially such a powerful weapon (not you, Jay, but the people in this thread in general_

I'm interested in your opinion since you write a lot and say things that not only do I agree with but make sense.

Aside from retooling Standoff and Valhalla so that there is no neutral SpLaser how would you change the SpLaser to make it less powerful and/or more skill demanding?


I personally think the problem is inherent in the laser. It is far too easy to use for how effective it is. Of course since its purpose is ant-vehicular, that plays out the most on maps which could easily rely on a vehicle emphasis. On Sandtrap we see that the lasers are SOMEWHAT balanced, as vehicles do manage to play around. But even still, most vehicles get destroyed. The only salvation for them is fast vehicle respawn times, many vehicles, and a lack of snipers on the map (only 1 at a neutral spot) - causing the laser to become the sniper for the other laser, wasting shots. In general, the problem is with the laser.

I'd prefer a H2 style lock on weapon, or a modified missile pod. With that weapon, you have to have skill to kill a vehicle, as you can't just shoot the instant you lock on. You have to wait for them to be at a good spot so they can't easily dodge. So it takes skill to use and skill to avoid. The laser has a 3 second charge, but if you've got the laser on a larger map like Valhalla, you have vehicle control and probably have control of the middle. This means that you don't have to worry too much about being attacked other than from the front, plus you have a lot of cover. So you charge for three seconds behind your teammates and cover, then pop out shooting a beam of light that demolishes a whole vehicle instantaneously. There's no chance to avoid it, really. And if the other team has the laser, they also control the vehicles, so you are spawn trapped. What tactics can you really use against a competent team who gets the laser first on Valhalla? The only reason people think there are adequate tactics is because they've won when they haven't gotten the laser first. That's not because the laser's fair, it's because the team was incompetent.

As far as Valhalla goes, the sniper at each base both helps and hinders. Having a sniper allows you a chance to pick off the laser, but at the same time, if the other team has the laser, they have the middle, which means their sniper is just one more addition to the havoc reigning down upon your base. Honestly, though, I think the biggest issue is with the banshee. It is IMPOSSIBLE to down any decent banshee driver. You have a missile pod, but that is worthless on that map if the banshee knows anything. You can counter warthogs with good tactics, you can counter the laser if you have some freedom of movement, but with the banshee on the map, you really can't do anything. It reminds me of Ascension from H2. If a team got the banshee and the rockets, it was game over. If you took the banshee out, Valhalla would be much better (but I do love the banshee).

I guess another option would be to have a laser at both bases and a sniper in the middile, but that would be too much laser and even less vehicles used than already used. Perhaps sniper spawns could be replaced with rockets, and the laser could be posted up around the bubble shield mongoose, while the sniper posted at the pelican. This would give another antivehicular weapon, plus spread out the gameplay and the rushes. I think messing around with this too much could throw off the gameplay, so the easiest fix is just taking out the banshee.

That being said, I've heard a few good ideas for a laser fix. 1) Make the reticule smaller so it's harder to aim and hit targets
2) Have the battery drain while holding down the trigger and the when you let the laser go, it does X amount of damage, based off how long you've held it down - up to 3 seconds
3) Make less shots (I don't like this one, as it's still just as powerful)
4) Have the laser deal damage over time. Instead of a burst laser, the laser would be more like a sentinel beam. That would require you to be accurate over time, not just pop out and instakill.

Personally, I think reducing the reticule size is one of the easiest options and compromises. Even if they don't change anything else about the laser, that would help. I vote for that as well as perhaps a mix of one or two of the others (except #3). The laser is just way too easy to use as it stands, and it throws off vehicle use and the quality of gameplay on many maps.

However, I'd prefer more of a lock on weapon over the laser. Make it similar to the H2 rockets but make the warning sound louder. Also, make it so that you have to follow the vehicle to keep a strong lock on. Give the rocket a natural small lock on, but give it a strong lock on when you continue to follow the vehicle and keep lock on with your reticule. This requires continuous skill for the rocketeer and leaves him vulnerable, but also allows skill from the driver to avoid it. This would really help each to count the cost on driving and when to use the rockets.

[Edited on 11.10.2009 5:01 AM PST]

  • 11.10.2009 4:58 AM PDT

Look out.... -boom- (headshot)
I told you to look out, but know, you got in my way, was going to shoot that splaser....

Posted by: TW InKoGnIto
Here is my solution.

For those who can't read more that 500 words, basically, 2 shot spartan laser, a VISIBLE pre-fire laser, and a 150/180 second spawn time. Period.

The rockets should travel at a faster speed, have as much tracking ability as the needler does. But when not locked on to a vehicle, they veer off course after a distance.


I know this is Off-topic , but...
TW InKoGnIto, the only thing I have wrong with all that is the sniper rifle. If you have read the books you know that the retical is on your HUD because the Spartans armor digitally uplinks with the gun you use, so there would be no "shooting for the hip" they wanted the Spartans to be as deadly and accurate as possible. If you don't want the retical, just get the Skull "shooting from the Hip."

  • 11.10.2009 5:52 AM PDT
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Posted by: Will_Spartan043
Having an effective anti-vehicle weapon is essential.
It is balanced.

The laser is dangerous I agree, and it does make using vehicles next to impossible when in the right hands. But a vehicle is just as dangerous with a good driver, and average players can handle gunner duty. Anyone out in the open will be mowed down mercilessly. Why shouldn't it be just as dangerous for a vehicle. There has to be a counter that's just as effective.


I'll say it again: the laser actually makes vehicles more effective. Being an easy and effective anti-vehicle weapon, it may easily kill vehicles for one side, but it magnifies the power of vehicles for the other team, greatly cheapening the skill of vehicle use. It really hampers gameplay all around because one team can't use any vehicles while the other team uses them to perfection.

We need a weapon that takes more skill and does not have such a high reward. Power drainers, plasma pistols, and brute shots are perfect for warthogs and ghosts, and we don't even need any other antivehicle weapons for those. But for banshees, I think we need something like the laser (but a bit different) or a lock on capable weapon like I proposed in a previous post here.

Honestly, vehicles are not all that powerful or hard to manage other than the banshee. Warthogs can get annoying on wide open maps like Standoff or Sandtrap if you're unprepared and don't have a laser, missile pod, etc, but they're manageable.

  • 11.10.2009 9:45 AM PDT

heres a way to balance it, give it one shot and a spawn time of atleast 3 minutes.

  • 11.10.2009 9:53 AM PDT

BYAHH

Posted by: PandaJerk007
I say make the charging up targeting beam much more visible, and get rid of the scope. Then the Spartan Laser would be more skillful to use on far away opponents but still possible to take out vehicles because they are big targets.


I agree with this. The scope makes it so easy to hit a vehicle. Even if the vehicle is close you can still scope and make the vehicle take up your entire sight, thus guaranteeing a hit.

  • 11.10.2009 9:53 AM PDT

I think it should beep like the missile pod when a spartan laser is targeting you.

Also, I think it should only kill people instantly if the laser wielder directly hits the spartan(s) on the vehicle. If it simply hits the vehicle and not the spartan(s), I think it should drain or mostly drain all passengers' shields, and have the equivalent force of a gravity hammer (eg: send the vehicle tumbling like a mother-blam!-).

  • 11.10.2009 11:15 AM PDT

Its a trap!!!

Posted by: fifthderelicte
Posted by: Will_Spartan043
Having an effective anti-vehicle weapon is essential.
It is balanced.

The laser is dangerous I agree, and it does make using vehicles next to impossible when in the right hands. But a vehicle is just as dangerous with a good driver, and average players can handle gunner duty. Anyone out in the open will be mowed down mercilessly. Why shouldn't it be just as dangerous for a vehicle. There has to be a counter that's just as effective.


I'll say it again: the laser actually makes vehicles more effective. Being an easy and effective anti-vehicle weapon, it may easily kill vehicles for one side, but it magnifies the power of vehicles for the other team, greatly cheapening the skill of vehicle use. It really hampers gameplay all around because one team can't use any vehicles while the other team uses them to perfection.

We need a weapon that takes more skill and does not have such a high reward. Power drainers, plasma pistols, and brute shots are perfect for warthogs and ghosts, and we don't even need any other antivehicle weapons for those. But for banshees, I think we need something like the laser (but a bit different) or a lock on capable weapon like I proposed in a previous post here.

Honestly, vehicles are not all that powerful or hard to manage other than the banshee. Warthogs can get annoying on wide open maps like Standoff or Sandtrap if you're unprepared and don't have a laser, missile pod, etc, but they're manageable.


You know if you want to make the game more skilled the logical choice would be to get rid of both the vehicles and laser.

How many banshee pilots can out run missle pod? A good number of them I know inclunding I.

You don't have to be overly skilled to get a lot of kills before you die in the warthog. The driver just has to know not to stop and to basically know where to circle the map and what routes are less likeley to give the warthog a threat from ground forces.

So many times in a game I have seen a team come back from 10 warthog kills in a little less then a minute and a half.

But no people like vehicles. Its fun for them despite their obvious advantage in armor, mobility, range, infinite ammo, and stoping power

the laser is fun for me in retrospect. I love the metal. I love that on a rare ocasion i can get a 2 for 1, and sometimes even get an overkill in one shot because the stupid team decided to camp very close to each other.

But thats not a fail in weapon design it is a fail on them.

I know one person said "bring back H2 rockets. The good drivers get away from them but the good players time it right"

Ok so whats the trade off for that? Rocket guy is timing them while chaingun guy is racking up the kills.

I just want instant punishment for the people who thought that they could get into something overpowered such as vehicles and not pay the price for dealing with the laser threat

  • 11.10.2009 11:32 AM PDT

I really enjoy the Spartan Laser. I hope it sticks around, I remember playing through the campaign and playing the mission with the Hornets (Can't remember the game?) and starting with the Laser (I played campaign & beat it before Multiplayer), and I was like in awe. It was so devastating and just made me feel like a total beast! Haha :]

On another note...

Based on a completely multiplayer experience:

The laser is a perfect weapon for anti-vehicular tactics.
However, on Heavy Maps, 3(+?) Lasers per map is a bit extreme. Giving each side a Laser is a good idea, but it seems like you can never get a good spree going on maps like Valhalla because everyone is spamming Lasers at every vehicle. I know it's about strategy and team control, but at least if you're going to have at least 2 lasers per map, beef up the respawn times...

  • 11.10.2009 12:10 PM PDT

I don't get how so many people think this thread makes sense. Changing the weapons when talking about vehicle-infantry balance is moot when you have forge mode.

It seems like everyone here asking for better balance just wants to get more kills in vehicles.

  • 11.10.2009 12:12 PM PDT

reconz unite

Posted by: maxzy
Posted by: DebatingBoot
Why don't we just remove every weapon, equipment and grenade? They are obviously all overpowered.

On a serious note:
The Laser is by no means OP. You get five chances to hit your opponent(s). And while you are attempting to do so, you need to stand out in the open for several seconds just to make sure that your five chances don't all miss. You also warn the enemy by making a thin red line dance around all over their screen, warning them to get behind something.

If anything, increase the visibility of the red line.


You obviously did not read my OP.

I don't want the laser removed, I want it toned down.

Nobody stands in the open for 3 seconds while charging the laser. Everybody stands behind cover then pops out for a split second to shoot their target.

The red line is virtually impossible to see. Especially if the game is laggy. And even if you see the line, what are you going to do? It only gives the target a split second to dodge.

The missle pod gives the target a real warning that they are being locked on. Not an invisible line.

atualy he said to get a clear shot and you don't get a clear shot if you are behind rock

  • 11.10.2009 12:23 PM PDT
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Posted by: BTE
Posted by: Xharpan
it doese'nt look nextgen , looks good but not nextgen
If by next-gen you mean crappy, dark and colorless, I agree. It doesnt look next-gen at all.

I want the Halo 3 Beta Trip Mine. It actually did something. Now a plasma grenade does more damage than the stupid mine.

  • 11.10.2009 12:33 PM PDT

reconz unite

Posted by: DeafHelenKeller
I really enjoy the Spartan Laser. I hope it sticks around, I remember playing through the campaign and playing the mission with the Hornets (Can't remember the game?) and starting with the Laser (I played campaign & beat it before Multiplayer), and I was like in awe. It was so devastating and just made me feel like a total beast! Haha :]

On another note...

Based on a completely multiplayer experience:

The laser is a perfect weapon for anti-vehicular tactics.
However, on Heavy Maps, 3(+?) Lasers per map is a bit extreme. Giving each side a Laser is a good idea, but it seems like you can never get a good spree going on maps like Valhalla because everyone is spamming Lasers at every vehicle. I know it's about strategy and team control, but at least if you're going to have at least 2 lasers per map, beef up the respawn times...
to balance make a map like blood gulch but with more caves that stop people getting spawn killed by snipers and put lazer on it but there must be some tunnel under the caves big enough for vehicles and a bit where banshees/hornets can fly over and all power weapons are in caves then each team is equally balanced and no team is closer to weapons and has little terrain but lots of rocks to get in lazers way this will tone it down because vehicles like the warthog can easily hide behind rocks so only the gunner is exposed to the lazer and lazer can easily be sneaked behind and assassinated.
the only problem would be this map would totally fail at free for all

[Edited on 11.10.2009 12:35 PM PST]

  • 11.10.2009 12:33 PM PDT

Why not give it some sort of ''lock on'' for vehicles? Make it so that you have to have the reticule on the vehicle the whole charge up time. This would remove the hiding-until-the-laser-charges thing. It would also make it harder, because as a driver, you could actually try and keep the aimer off of you with maneuvers.

I don't really see this working with infantry, because it's a waste against infantry anyway.

  • 11.10.2009 12:40 PM PDT

i rarely get in vehicles in H3 apart from vehicle based games (race tracks). Because of such devastating weapons such as the SL and MP. I never used them against vehics because i detest them. I mostly use a plasma pistol, and it works perfectly.
Everyone only ever focuses on the power weapons and that's why they win most of the time. At least make all power weapons have a longer respawn time.

  • 11.10.2009 12:48 PM PDT

reconz unite

Posted by: ABotelho
Why not give it some sort of ''lock on'' for vehicles? Make it so that you have to have the reticule on the vehicle the whole charge up time. This would remove the hiding-until-the-laser-charges thing. It would also make it harder, because as a driver, you could actually try and keep the aimer off of you with maneuvers.

I don't really see this working with infantry, because it's a waste against infantry anyway.
well what if the lazer bent to try and hit as many targets as possible but it would only bend a little and it can't turn round corners

  • 11.10.2009 12:50 PM PDT

i agree that when u charge the laser it should take up battery

  • 11.10.2009 12:57 PM PDT

reconz unite

Posted by: cyclopsdias
i agree that when u charge the laser it should take up battery
no because then if you assassinate some on while they are charging it on the last shot you wouldnt have enough power to fire

  • 11.10.2009 1:00 PM PDT

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Also known as DuskSoul on GameFAQs.

Posted by: maxzy
B) Similar to the Plasma Pistol, when the Spartan Laser is being charged make it take up battery. Too many times a player will charge up a laser behind cover and step out for just enough time to fire the laser. This makes it almost immpossible to kill the player using Spartan Laser before they have time to kill their target.


I like this idea.

But, make the battery much larger, since we can't eat up the battery too easily, or the gun will just get ridiculous. The only point of this is to keep it a vehicle weapon, since it will increase the risk of shooting a normal person by a lot since the weapon can be very hard to use against a single person, even just normally charging it up. This will cause people to rather aim it at vehicles than people.

[Edited on 11.10.2009 1:10 PM PST]

  • 11.10.2009 1:05 PM PDT

-----------------------------------------------------------------
Scott Allen

This is where I got 28 Wheelmans without dieing, aiding my friend ROSSLFC94 28 kills and an untouchable.
HERE
[btw, the other team was a bit retarded, but it doesn't take anything away from my point, honestly!! xD]


It's the "Heavy" maps where they puts 100's of lasers and tanks down that wreck it, it's pointless.

If you want to use vehicles a lot, I suggest playing Squad Battles like I do, you occasionly get Valhalla Heavy but a lot of the time it's CTF, Assault or Big-Team slayer on the stock maps, and at least 9/10 the map have at least 1 warthog and usually other vehicles too like ghosts or choppers.

  • 11.10.2009 1:07 PM PDT
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<3 the DMR

I thought vehicle combat was perfectly balanced.

  • 11.10.2009 1:11 PM PDT

I don't know what to say about all of this...you noobs just need to stop complaining about this stuff. The laser is an awesome weapon and it is not even close to overpowered...if you don't suck...i don't know how many times it has kept my team from being vehicle whored by the other team...
and the game should be about controlling certain weapons on the maps and areas, otherwise this will end up like cod and it will just be a massive amount of killing with no strat.

  • 11.10.2009 1:16 PM PDT
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What vehicle fights are dumb and the spartan laser is a good way to piss off people who jump in vehicles for quick easy unskilled kills. My opinion ^. I also think that's why CODs done so well. while I don't think it should be taken away its annoying how people think they are good because they go around with a ghost or banshee and get kills. Anyway my opinion.

  • 11.10.2009 1:18 PM PDT

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Personally, I think, since the Laser takes extreme concentration and is a heavy weapon, that it should be moved into a sub genre of weapons.

Effectively, it would be between Large 3-rd Person weapons and normal weapons. It would make you slower when you have it out and while it is charging your movement would be highly restricted in terms of jumping/walking. Your crosshair would move unrestricted. I think that would help to balance it out against vehicles and personnel.

  • 11.10.2009 1:23 PM PDT