Halo: Reach Forum
This topic has moved here: Subject: Does bungie care about the competitive community?
  • Subject: Does bungie care about the competitive community?
Subject: Does bungie care about the competitive community?

Posted by: elementf89
Well it's a legitimate question and if bungie has this website to be in tune with their fans this is what they accomplished here. I have been playing since Combat Evolved, and it's just disappointing to see a game that could be about skill and strategy, and attracts fans around the world to gather at events be compromised just because bungie needs to tune it for noobs to compete with less competitive games.

obviously they do, or else they wont have the mlg playlist...

  • 11.15.2009 11:24 AM PDT

Most kills in the world with the Storm rifle in halo 4, the Plasma Repeater in halo reach, and the Plasma rifle in halo 3.
check out my youtube channel

any way if mlg wasnt full of douches i would play it more but i go in and out br kids who think there bad and then never hear the end of the whining and challenges to 1vs 1

  • 11.15.2009 11:25 AM PDT

Posted by: elementf89
MLG is a huge part of halo, and encompasses a large part of the fan base. Many say that the MLG style of play is the most competitive and fast paced way to play. For instance, any new gamer to halo can take an ar, and charge people for a few kills. However it takes accuracy and strategy to "out br" people who are good at the game. Also, there is zero team work with AR games. What is the point of calling out when everyone just has a spray gun that shoots literally up to 25 feet?

My question is, does bungie care enough about the competitive community to taylor halo reach to continue to play well in the MLG style we have been playing for years? Or will they keep trying to chase the leisurely noob friendly style of play, which will attract the less talented, and less serious gamers who are now playing CoD?

ITT: an OP that worships MLG like it is god, and thinks that if it isnt tailored to MLG style gameplay, it is noobish.

  • 11.15.2009 11:25 AM PDT

Your in Bad Company.

Posted by: elementf89
Posted by: UNKNOWN iXi
Posted by: elementf89
Posted by: UNKNOWN iXi
Posted by: elementf89
Let's just hope the customization you speak of is very present. There is a rumor going around that we should expect health bars in reach (like in Halo: CE). This will be detrimental to competitive gaming.


Like I told you in another thread... Health bars were in Halo 1, yet it was the most competitive of all 3 Halo games. Stop acting foolish.

You have placed no logic or reasoning behind you claim, and can't get your point across without an insult, but I'm sure you are much more articulate in person.

The MLG community has been increasing growing since halo 1 and 2. Halo 3 actually has the largest MLG fan base out of all three.


lmfao I bet you're just a little turd in person as you are online.

Just because something grows in numbers over the years does NOT mean the original should be discredited and not referred to. You're just being EXTREMELY biased and hard headed/close minded.

Halo 1 STARTED your "precious" MLG fanbase, so pay your respects and acknowledge that competitive play WILL continue REGARDLESS of the easy play of Halo 3. Halo 1 was a MUCH more skill-based game over Halo 3, if you argue against this then you "credibility" is destroyed.




What say you now little man?

Well it took you like three posts just to get one fact across, which was that halo 1 started the competitive play-style we still see. You still have not backed up your entire argument which was that halo 1 was the most competitive. Actual health which needs to be regenerated with health packs does not breed competitiveness. And you still need to work on getting points across without insults.
You haven't either, all I've heard from the "little man" here was some MLG kid whining and whining, just like what 80% of all the other "MLG" players do. You haven't put up an arguement that talks about the MAJORITY of Halo players which is "everyone else" and that everyone else can be newcomers, people who play everyday, etc. What about them? MLG gets what they want, they don't.

  • 11.15.2009 11:25 AM PDT
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Posted by: tepezcuintle
Posted by: dangerbyrnes
skill = the ability, coming from one's knowledge, practice, aptitude, etc., to do something well. this includes anything, good at killing with an AR? it's skill. good at driving vehicles? it's skill. skill does not depend on what you use.

now if i recollect, most of bungies decisions have been in favor of the competitive community after halo 3 launched. why were shield doors removed? why did bungie add MLG? why are swat and snipers permanent and grifball and infection not? why were anvil and other foundry maps removed? and why was equipment such as the radar jammer removed?

i'm pretty sure bungie cares about the competitive community, sometimes i think they care too much...

nice, game over


You fail to realize the argument. You oversimplify it and play semantics to your advantage. Nobody argues that Halo as it is takes no skill whatsoever. Heck, the skill starts when you pick up your remote to turn on the television. There are plenty of people out there who are not in the right mind or physical condition to even do such a menial task. But I doubt you'd consider turning on your television a real skill, or one that we should take into consideration here.

Halo 3 does take skill, and yes, better people typically do better. But people argue that there is too much randomization and too little of a skill gap to distinguish skill in Halo as it stands now. Why do we have double experience weekends? Why are 9/10 of the weapons in Halo fully automatic, CQ, or highly explosive and easy to use? Why do spartans move so slowly? Why is there so much autoaim? Why is there melee lunge? And all of this for a group of people who largely dwindle as the game ages.

I just created a thread that deals with these exact issues (you'll find FinalHazard trolling there as well). You'll find that allowing the game to be more difficult (potentially) and providing the means for a larger skill gap actually benefits the casual players as well as the hardcore.



[Edited on 11.15.2009 11:31 AM PST]

  • 11.15.2009 11:28 AM PDT

Your in Bad Company.

thank you fifthderelicte!

Finally someone with a reasonable argument that has a point.

  • 11.15.2009 11:31 AM PDT
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Taken from a similar thread.

Posted by: disgruntledfan2
Please stop trying to change Halo into a competitive game when it has never been.


All across this post I see you and others saying that Bungie creates the game how they want it, it's not meant to be competetive, don't change it. You forget that it was Bungie who implemented the best MM system created in Halo 2(which I would argue Bungie still does). Not only did they create a very competitive MM, but they had leaderboards for H2. And on top of all this, they tracked your game stats on their site. And all of this before MLG tried to take it over.

I'm not one who drools over MLG, but neither am I one who thinks an online game should give out smiley faces to everyone like they're kindergarteners. In fact, I think a competitive system is the most fair system. If you have a COD type system, you can get thrown in the mix with anyone. If you have a competitive system where people claw for ranks, you get the competitive people out of the lower ranks who don't care. You fail to see that a non-competitive system is actually deleterious to the casual players. Campaign has the easy option, but multiplayer doesn't have that. The only way to ensure that the "easy" players get to play on easy is to have a large skill gap with a competitive ranking system. That's the only way people like you will get your smiley faces and feel good about yourself, knowing that what your mother has always said about you being the best is true.

Bungie should change some of the gameplay mechanics and weapon balancing in Reach to make for a competitive game. The casual players won't care, as they'll be holding down the RT as they try to center their reticule ahead of them, but only ever see the ground and the sky. They won't notice if the BR has a single shot, 5 shot kill or a burst 4 shot kill. The players they'll be playing against will be shooting at the same sky and rock they are. Making the game competitive gets the higher players out of the bottom by creating a larger skill gap, allows ALL players to enjoy the game, whether competitive or casual, etc.

Reach doesn't have to gear towards one group or the other. In fact, focusing on the competitive players will actually help the casual players, as I've stated above, or could expound upon in many other ways, if you'd like. The competitive players are the ones who will notice gameplay issues, balancing issues, etc. Not only that, but they're the ones who will stick around the longest and buy the next game the company comes out with. If you look at my record, you'll see that I haven't played for about 6 months, and when I get my xbox here in another month, I'll be a weekend warrior myself. But I'm not too egocentric to see that competition is good and proper and fair. Competition is the capitalism of the gaming industry. We all know what socialism does to an economy...

  • 11.15.2009 11:35 AM PDT

Tegernako and fifthderelicte, I thank you for being mature and intelligent in your posts. Honestly to me it shows there are people who care about the details instead of fighting.

  • 11.15.2009 11:46 AM PDT

Your in Bad Company.

I can be a jerk, but I admit it. =D

I love a good debate more than I love a good fight. I'll sometimes stand up for the person everyone is flaming (which doesn't do my ego, nor my inbox any good) because I have this sense of "right"


  • 11.15.2009 11:52 AM PDT

Posted by: Tegernako
I can be a jerk, but I admit it. =D

I love a good debate more than I love a good fight. I'll sometimes stand up for the person everyone is flaming (which doesn't do my ego, nor my inbox any good) because I have this sense of "right"


Well, I love an intelligent debate where everybody isn't smashed into the ground. Me and my two friends often have them about halo nowadays, and we never descend into rage and hatred.

  • 11.15.2009 12:00 PM PDT

Marine Corps.
Semper Fi.

Posted by: Wikked Navajoe
My problems [with Reach] are basically just full parties, mlg, and people who go out of their way not to get killed.

The answer is yes. The game will probably be similar to Halo 3 in the way that it appeals to both crowds just fine.

  • 11.15.2009 12:06 PM PDT

Your in Bad Company.

Good, because I've had maybe three of those since I've been here.

  • 11.15.2009 12:29 PM PDT

Clearly because the desktop uses a 3 prong plug and a laptop uses a 2 prong plug, the microwave will fill your car with tostitos better

Yes, but they care more about the casual gamer who makes up a much larger portion of Halo fans than competitive fans. They've done a lot for the competitive community, take what you can get and stop crying about the rest.

  • 11.15.2009 12:43 PM PDT
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Posted by: Tegernako
Good, because I've had maybe three of those since I've been here.


I agree. Unfortunately people make a few mistakes in forums. They feed trolls and go off topic instead of ignoring them and posting about the issue, they don't address the heart of the issue, but instead focus on topical and temporary fixes, or they let their bias cloud reality.



[Edited on 11.15.2009 12:44 PM PST]

  • 11.15.2009 12:43 PM PDT

Posted by: fifthderelicte
Posted by: Tegernako
Good, because I've had maybe three of those since I've been here.


I agree. Unfortunately people make a few mistakes in forums. They feed trolls and go off topic instead of ignoring them and posting about the issue, they don't address the heart of the issue, but instead focus on topical and temporary fixes, or they let their bias cloud reality.



Where did the intelligence go in the general public?

  • 11.15.2009 12:45 PM PDT
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Posted by: Xx Mr Bill xX
Yes, but they care more about the casual gamer who makes up a much larger portion of Halo fans than competitive fans. They've done a lot for the competitive community, take what you can get and stop crying about the rest.
The casual community makes up more initial sales, but they're not the ones who keep up with it. Add to this that catering to the competitive crowd helps the casual crowd, it's a win/win. It's just too bad that the casual community is so biased against MLG and competition that they would rather take a hit and have MLG suffer than to compromise and have it better for everyone.

[EDIT] I'm always amazed that the majority of mythic members (or higher ranked members in general) are the ones who are so against competition. Almost all of the higher levels I've seen despise competition and the skillful components of the game. That's neither here nor there, it's just an observation.

[Edited on 11.15.2009 12:48 PM PST]

  • 11.15.2009 12:46 PM PDT

Posted by: fifthderelicte
Posted by: Xx Mr Bill xX
Yes, but they care more about the casual gamer who makes up a much larger portion of Halo fans than competitive fans. They've done a lot for the competitive community, take what you can get and stop crying about the rest.
The casual community makes up more initial sales, but they're not the ones who keep up with it. Add to this that catering to the competitive crowd helps the casual crowd, it's a win/win. It's just too bad that the casual community is so biased against MLG and competition that they would rather take a hit and have MLG suffer than to compromise and have it better for everyone.

[EDIT] I'm always amazed that the majority of mythic members (or higher ranked members in general) are the ones who are so against competition. Almost all of the higher levels I've seen despise competition and the skillful components of the game. That's neither here nor there, it's just an observation.


I'm fine with competition, and using skill to win instead of mindless running in circles. My problem is how MLG members treat those that play for fun, I'm merely speaking from firsthand experiance.

  • 11.15.2009 12:50 PM PDT
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Most "MLG" players on these forums aren't really MLG. They think it's cool to say "MLG," but they're just posers. A lot of MLG stays away from Bungie and hangs around the MLG forums because of the bias towards them on here. So for the most part, if they hang around here and troll/flame like morons, they're probably not MLG. They just play customs with other kids who think they're cool and download the MLG maps. It's really just cyclical. You say the MLG people are jerks, so you're (general "you") a jerk to them. They say you're a jerk, so they're jerks to you. Where does it end?

Even if you hate MLG or MLG gameplay, building a game around skill is NOT going to hurt the casual player. If anything, it gets the better players away from the casual players, making their experience more enjoyable.

  • 11.15.2009 12:55 PM PDT

Clearly because the desktop uses a 3 prong plug and a laptop uses a 2 prong plug, the microwave will fill your car with tostitos better

Posted by: fifthderelicte
Posted by: Xx Mr Bill xX
Yes, but they care more about the casual gamer who makes up a much larger portion of Halo fans than competitive fans. They've done a lot for the competitive community, take what you can get and stop crying about the rest.
The casual community makes up more initial sales, but they're not the ones who keep up with it. Add to this that catering to the competitive crowd helps the casual crowd, it's a win/win. It's just too bad that the casual community is so biased against MLG and competition that they would rather take a hit and have MLG suffer than to compromise and have it better for everyone.


Competitive players play more games of Halo and will *probably* stick with the series longer than the person who just goes out and buys whatever game is big, that's true. There is still going to be a larger number of casual Halo players who stick through the whole series of Halo games, even if a larger percentage of that group only buys one or two Halo games than the competitive group, simply because of the sheer amount of casual Halo players there are compared to competitive players.

The competitive community really hasn't even been neglected. MLG, which is seen as the traditional source of competitive Halo gaming is the community that feels neglected because of them looking back at Halo CE through the rosy red glasses of nostalgia. Look at what we have now. We have the MLG playlist, Bungie is a media sponsor of MLG, they go to MLG events and unveil new maps, forge and theater are great assests to the competitive community. Its just that the fundamentals of Halo 3 do not allow for the type of competitive play or the amount of emphasis on individual skill that past Halo games have allowed.

How exactly does catering to the competitive crowd help the casual crowd? I understand that some casual players can have fun on MLG settings, but there are many who legitimately can't, whether it be because of bias or they just dislike the kind of game play it promotes.

[EDIT] I'm always amazed that the majority of mythic members (or higher ranked members in general) are the ones who are so against competition. Almost all of the higher levels I've seen despise competition and the skillful components of the game. That's neither here nor there, it's just an observation.

If you were putting me in that category I would suggest taking a look at my GT, I didn't realize I had it hidden.

Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron
I'm fine with competition, and using skill to win instead of mindless running in circles. My problem is how MLG members treat those that play for fun, I'm merely speaking from firsthand experiance.


You've played under 600 games of MM. You've don't have a single EXP in MLG leading me to believe you have probably never entered the MLG playlist. You also spend most of your time in social playlists. Excuse me if I don't really believe you have any first hand experience aside from maybe getting bad luck in one game of social once.

[Edited on 11.15.2009 1:04 PM PST]

  • 11.15.2009 1:01 PM PDT
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Posted by: Xx Mr Bill xX


1. I don't think the competitive community has been neglected, I just think that the weaponsets (which is what contributes largely to the style of gameplay) have been dumbed down. My primary concern is with the BR and it's ease of use. With a burst headshot weapon, it's far too simple to land headshots, and with randomized bullet spread on a weapon that is at the core of gameplay, it randomizes gameplay. Add cheap equipment (as opposed to tactical equipment, or even equipment spawning similarly to power weapons), melee lunge, autoaim, etc, and it just decreases the skill gap.

2. With a larger skill gap, it's easier to separate the good from the bad. With a more clear cut distinction, the lower players are actually helped. Even if you don't buy that, tweaking the weaponsets to function more like competitive players like them won't hurt the lower levels at all. At worst, the weaponsets are made for the competitive players and the lower players don't realize it at all.

3. I made my statement about high ranking Bungie.net members typically supporting less competitive gameplay, which from your statement in your previous post, seems to be true. If you go to the mythic members page and click on the names of the members, you would probably be surprised how many of them are majors, lieutenants, etc. I don't give much consideration to rank in H3, but nevertheless, their stats show a lot about them overall. I'm just amazed at how they seem to despise competition. I guess you don't, but hopefully you can understand how I would get that from your statement.

A longer thread on my thoughts can be found here.

[Edited on 11.15.2009 1:17 PM PST]

  • 11.15.2009 1:15 PM PDT

I have faced a few MLG players in ranked and social. One particular pair was very rude and full of bragging after they had won.

  • 11.15.2009 1:17 PM PDT

Posted by: Spartan2447
You can always switch to one of the most competitive games of all time

Counter-Strike


Your two cents are being drowned it a sea of quarters.

  • 11.15.2009 1:19 PM PDT

Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron
I have faced a few MLG players in ranked and social. One particular pair was very rude and full of bragging after they had won.
Like fifthderelicte said previously, they aren't really "MLG".

They most likely just put MLG in their name to make them look "pro", or to boost their egos.

You can't label whole communities based on a few encounters with MLG wannabe's.

For the most part, MLGers are rational and can have intelligent discussions without resorting to insults.

  • 11.15.2009 1:21 PM PDT

Probably, and I probably should give a few MLG playlists some runs to have a better view. Might do that next time I have some friends over after we do ODST Firefight.

I just hate people that take games so seriously they won't let others have fun.

  • 11.15.2009 1:23 PM PDT