Halo: Reach Forum
This topic has moved here: Subject: Does bungie care about the competitive community?
  • Subject: Does bungie care about the competitive community?
Subject: Does bungie care about the competitive community?

Posted by: A 3 Legged Goat
"Team shoot the wraith!"
"What's a team shoot and what's a wraith?!"
"It means we all shoot at the big blue thing together!"
"Okay!"
*starts betraying blue teammate*

Posted by: Methew
This will entirely end well and not with a flame war or lock.

LOL
On topic, of course.
They gave you BR starts and a BR and a ridiculously overpowered sniper.

  • 11.16.2009 5:43 AM PDT

.:. îXî - $ìgñ øf thé GøÐz .:.


My Profile - iXi Gaming


Î ũňķñ{ǾẄŃ} ū

Posted by: fifthderelicte
Posted by: UNKNOWN iXi
Posted by: CookieMan
There's less tactical thinking necessary when you have a gun with a high rate of fire and damage (BR).




I stopped caring about your post after I read this, especially the stuff in italics. Clearly you have NO CLUE as to what you're talking about...


I know what you're saying about the BR being a relatively slow kill, but it does have a high ROF. It's the damage of the bullets that make the ROF less important. That being said, you have to remember that the BR does kill rather quickly, particularly considering it is usually used in combination with either a grenade/headshot, or team firing. Team firing makes kills nearly instantaneous with a mid-long ranged semi-precision weapon.

Personally, I think the BR has two problems : 1) Random bullet spread which emphasizes luck over skill, 2) burst headshots - How hard is it to headshot someone when you can aim at their chest or swipe the reticule across their head.



That's not true at all, being able to kill quickly with a Grenade or team firing has nothing to do with its ROF. You can kill someone just as quickly with a Grenade + headshot with a Magnum and almost as quickly with team firing with a Magnum, yet the Magnum is the slowest firing weapon in the game. So your theory is flawed...

Now when you mention the spread being able to easily headshot someone because you have a 1 in 3 chance, that's also very false. What have we been talking about all this time in numerous threads with regards to the BR? There's way too many times that you may THINK you're hitting someone in the head because your aiming is spot on, but the game doesn't record this as so because of the randomness of the spread.

Again, I bring it back to Halo 1. The Pistol had a faster ROF and was a much harder weapon to use, making for extremely fun and fast gameplay. The BR shoots too slow for the speed you squeeze the triggers, bottom line. I can spam the trigger like 3-5 times and have only one shot come out, leading to a sluggish and slower gameplay experience.

  • 11.16.2009 6:31 AM PDT
  • gamertag: BJRSCJ
  • user homepage:

Posted by: UNKNOWN iXi
That's not true at all, being able to kill quickly with a Grenade or team firing has nothing to do with its ROF. You can kill someone just as quickly with a Grenade + headshot with a Magnum and almost as quickly with team firing with a Magnum, yet the Magnum is the slowest firing weapon in the game.
Quite true, particularly about the grenades. However, you need to keep in mind that range is a huge issue. You may be able to team fire with pistols or ARs at pretty close ranges, but the precision (relatively, anyway) at distances is what allows me to say this about the BR. You don't really hear much about team firing from any other weapons because most of the engagement ranges are long range, or so short that it's all up to your AR/melee. For the range the BR is intended to work, the kills are quite quick, and the tactics in Halo gear towards teamfiring mostly, if not exclusively, with the BR.

Posted by: UNKNOWN iXi
Now when you mention the spread being able to easily headshot someone because you have a 1 in 3 chance, that's also very false. What have we been talking about all this time in numerous threads with regards to the BR? There's way too many times that you may THINK you're hitting someone in the head because your aiming is spot on, but the game doesn't record this as so because of the randomness of the spread.
You're partially correct again. At semi-long to long range I'd agree with you, though sometimes the inaccuracy actually helps by causing you to hit a shot you otherwise wouldn't, nullifying both of our points. But if you've ever played SWAT, you can't tell me that the burst of the BR does not make the gun far too simple to use against unshielded opponents. The random spread may necessitate a 5 shot instead of 4 sometimes, but we're generally talking about 1-2 bullets missing. When you fire three bullets at one target to kill, I'll take a 1/3 chance over an all or nothing any day. You can't tell me it's not easier with a BR, especially considering that the first bullet goes almost exactly where you tell it to, and it's the other two that are more randomized, but still relatively accurate.

Posted by: UNKNOWN iXi
Again, I bring it back to Halo 1. The Pistol had a faster ROF and was a much harder weapon to use, making for extremely fun and fast gameplay.
I wouldn't mind a faster ROF weapon, and by George I'd like a single shot weapon for reasons stated above. But I do feel that a lot of the difficulty in HCE was due to a lack of strong aim assist. I would HATE a HCE pistol in H3 (though I wouldn't mind a single shot precision weapon) because of the stronger autoaim. If they bring a pistol back, they should significantly reduce autoaim and require one to lead shots on moving targets at distances, keeping the weapon single shot. I want precision weapons, but they should have a huge skill gap.

Posted by: UNKNOWN iXi
The BR shoots too slow for the speed you squeeze the triggers, bottom line. I can spam the trigger like 3-5 times and have only one shot come out, leading to a sluggish and slower gameplay experience.
I recall that the halo pistol had some sort of delay as well, though maybe not quite as long. As I said above, I'm not against this, I just think other things need to be implemented (or re-implemented) with it. My current go-to for skill is the carbine. It has a random spread as well, which sucks, and it's not as easy to get headshots as the BR. However, it's the most skillful precision weapon in the game overall and functions a lot more like you said - hence my avatar.

  • 11.16.2009 6:54 AM PDT

Does bungie care about the competitive community?
Yes.

  • 11.16.2009 7:11 AM PDT

.:. îXî - $ìgñ øf thé GøÐz .:.


My Profile - iXi Gaming


Î ũňķñ{ǾẄŃ} ū

fifth, I completely disagree with everything you said.

  • 11.16.2009 8:33 AM PDT
  • gamertag: BJRSCJ
  • user homepage:

Posted by: UNKNOWN iXi
fifth, I completely disagree with everything you said.
I don't see much there to disagree with other than opinions stated on what the game needs. It's true that team firing doesn't typically occur with other weapons. It's true that the burst makes headshotting statistically easier, especially considering the first bullet is just as accurate on the first shot. Almost everything I said in my first two points was fact, not opinion.

After that I elaborated on the solutions I felt would make gameplay better. I even agreed with you that a quicker kill weapon would be better, provided that it actually required skill to do it. I really don't see what you have to disagree with, unless you're going to argue either that we need to have no precision weapons and we should keep randomness, or we should have precision weapons that are quick kills but don't require skill. Seriously, what do you even disagree with and on what grounds?

  • 11.16.2009 8:42 AM PDT

.:. îXî - $ìgñ øf thé GøÐz .:.


My Profile - iXi Gaming


Î ũňķñ{ǾẄŃ} ū

Oh, I meant that I disagree with everything you said to support the BR's current ROF.

  • 11.16.2009 8:58 AM PDT
  • gamertag: BJRSCJ
  • user homepage:

Posted by: UNKNOWN iXi
Oh, I meant that I disagree with everything you said to support the BR's current ROF.


I do agree that it's not the best support to say that since a weapon is usually used as a team, it should kill more slowly. I think you have to base the weapons off a 1 vs. 1 scenario and balance them according to that. So yes, I do agree with you, but I was trying to point out that the way people interpret Halo and play it tactically, I think it adds in some good elements.

If everyone was walking around with a 1 second kill weapon that extended out to almost any range, teamfiring would be advantageous, but most engagements would be over before a teammate was ever alerted and used. Not only that, but mobility on the maps would be decreased because of the quick deaths even at longer ranges, unless Bungie supplied more than ample cover.

I personally like longer battles. They give a person the chance to respond and think through the situation. It rewards team play exponentially more, it's great to promote consistency over one lucky headshot, etc. I really understand where you're coming from and don't disagree all that much, I guess there's just one thing I'd ensure, like I said before, and that's skill.

1. If you're going to create a rapid ROF weapon that kills quickly, up the skill required. Make it like the carbine in that it fires fast, but you have to hit a lot of shots. The more shots you have to land, the more that shows your consistency. Obviously we don't want players to have to land 100 shots, but I'd be much more for a 6 round per second, 7 shot kill with headshot from a semiautomatic weapon as opposed to a 4 shot over 2.5 seconds or a 3 shot over 1.5 seconds. More shots equals more skill to land them.

2. Have a pretty fast ROF, but make it semiauto, which means the gun is only as good as the person who pulls the trigger. Skill here would be limited by your ability to pull the trigger and keep your aim consistent.

3. Reduce autoaim significantly, more like HCE.

4. Reduce the size of the reticule

5. Make movement speed a little faster to compensate for lost mobility as well as making sure accuracy is harder and takes more skill.

6. Require the weapon to lead at farther distances on moving targets.


I'm not saying they have to implement all of these to the extreme, but I want to see a larger skill gap in the game and a skillful core weapon.

[Edited on 11.16.2009 9:51 AM PST]

  • 11.16.2009 9:50 AM PDT

Posted by: elementf89
Halo is a huge part of MLG

Fixed.

  • 11.16.2009 12:59 PM PDT

"Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind." - Albert Einstien

Posted by: elementf89
Let's just hope the customization you speak of is very present. There is a rumor going around that we should expect health bars in reach (like in Halo: CE). This will be detrimental to competitive gaming.

Why? It combats camping and balances out individual skill with team play. Halo 3's weighting on the individual is incredibly low, which is why just being a good player really doesn't make you good at the game and is also the reason the BR is such a dominant gun, since it really one of the only readily accessible weapons on most maps that enhances teamwork exponentially.

Halo 2 had the proper balance of individual skill vs. teamwork. Teamwork was essential, but one guy could at least stand up to 2 or 3 people without dying.

  • 11.16.2009 1:06 PM PDT

I say bring on the customisation. Make there so many guns it makes you eyes bleed. Make health bars optional. Make a halo 1 pistol, and a halo 3 magnum. Make a semi auto and a fully auto gun. Make everything there was in halo's 1, 2 and 3. And odst for good measure. Make it so if somebody dosent like a gun, they can tweak its specifications in the custom games. Make the use of beatdowns removable. If the game was like this, no one could possibly complain because they can just change what they dont like to fit their needs. It may be difficult, but it would be goddam worth it. hell, even make the br spread changable. Mlg would love this game then because they could make it as competitive as they like.

[Edited on 11.16.2009 2:05 PM PST]

  • 11.16.2009 2:03 PM PDT

Your in Bad Company.

Posted by: fifthderelicte
Posted by: UNKNOWN iXi
Oh, I meant that I disagree with everything you said to support the BR's current ROF.



1. If you're going to create a rapid ROF weapon that kills quickly, up the skill required. Make it like the carbine in that it fires fast, but you have to hit a lot of shots. The more shots you have to land, the more that shows your consistency. Obviously we don't want players to have to land 100 shots, but I'd be much more for a 6 round per second, 7 shot kill with headshot from a semiautomatic weapon as opposed to a 4 shot over 2.5 seconds or a 3 shot over 1.5 seconds. More shots equals more skill to land them.
The only thing I disagree with is the RoF. The battle rifle techincally has a slow rate of fire, but it can still kill someone who's good with with it faster than someone with an AR. You'd have to find the perfect balance because if you make it to hard to aim or to slow, than people won't use it as much.


If you make it faster to fire but weaker, or less accurate than you get another carbine which is what we are trying to avoid: going to either BR or Carbine and find something with traits of both.

[Edited on 11.16.2009 2:12 PM PST]

  • 11.16.2009 2:12 PM PDT

"Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind." - Albert Einstien

Posted by: Tegernako
The only thing I disagree with is the RoF. The battle rifle techincally has a slow rate of fire, but it can still kill someone who's good with with it faster than someone with an AR. You'd have to find the perfect balance because if you make it to hard to aim or to slow, than people won't use it as much.


If you make it faster to fire but weaker, or less accurate than you get another carbine which is what we are trying to avoid: going to either BR or Carbine and find something with traits of both.


Accuracy shouldn't be touched. The accuracy is its skill factor. It should be made even more accurate, in fact. Similar to Halo 2 or the Halo CE pistol. This would be curbed by weakening the weapon and/or lessening the ammunition you can carry.

  • 11.16.2009 2:15 PM PDT

My honor student can beat up your honor student.

Answering the title, I'm pretty sure they do, seeing as they made Heretic, BLackout, Cold Storage, and Guardian almost strictly for MLG.

And is this so called "MLG" fan base actually paid Major league gamers? OR just a bunch of wannabe fanboys? Answer me that.

BTW you misspelled "Tailor"

  • 11.16.2009 2:19 PM PDT

How was the Halo 1 pistol balanced?
I mean, it wasn't "deadly" at all ranges, but it was overpowered.
Every other weapon had a "deadly" range, and outside that range, they were pretty much useless. The pistol, on the other hand, was deadly at mid, yet decent at close and long ranges.
Every other weapon had strengths and weaknesses, the pistol had strengths but no weaknesses.

  • 11.16.2009 2:19 PM PDT

Your in Bad Company.

Posted by: UL7IM4 G33K
Posted by: Tegernako
The only thing I disagree with is the RoF. The battle rifle techincally has a slow rate of fire, but it can still kill someone who's good with with it faster than someone with an AR. You'd have to find the perfect balance because if you make it to hard to aim or to slow, than people won't use it as much.


If you make it faster to fire but weaker, or less accurate than you get another carbine which is what we are trying to avoid: going to either BR or Carbine and find something with traits of both.


Accuracy shouldn't be touched. The accuracy is its skill factor. It should be made even more accurate, in fact. Similar to Halo 2 or the Halo CE pistol. This would be curbed by weakening the weapon and/or lessening the ammunition you can carry.
I was using less accurate as an example, not saying that it should happen. Thought I'd clear that up.

So what would be a good ammo amount? 20 shots a clip?

  • 11.16.2009 2:23 PM PDT

"Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind." - Albert Einstien

My BR:

Firing Mode: Semi-Auto
ROF: Variable to about the max speed of Halo 2 E3 Mombasa
Recoil: Exponential depending on ROF
Damage: 4-5 shots (depends on mangetism)
Clip Capacity: 8-15 rounds (depends on damage and magnetism)
Total Ammo: two clips
Melee: 150% normal melee speed (slower)

A weapon that can lay down accurate fire but a large volume for pressure as well. Gun is weak in CQ with its extremely slow melee (must turn the gun and smack with the but in animation). Effective at long range for sniper de-scope. Firing faster causes the gun to lose accuracy and drift upwards. Slower ROF keeps gun steady but sacrifices speed.

[Edited on 11.16.2009 2:35 PM PST]

  • 11.16.2009 2:34 PM PDT

Your in Bad Company.

I don't like the recoil, not even the sniper rifle has recoil defined as "exponential"

  • 11.16.2009 2:52 PM PDT

"Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind." - Albert Einstien

The SMG does. The Sniper doesn't fire fast enough. Besides, exponential makes sense. If you keep firing faster, you're shots are less likely every time to hit what your aiming. This and a smaller amount of ammo creates a more conscious effort to conserve shots and aim them well. This makes the BR less of a point and click weapon

[Edited on 11.16.2009 2:55 PM PST]

  • 11.16.2009 2:54 PM PDT

Your in Bad Company.

Posted by: UL7IM4 G33K
The SMG does. The Sniper doesn't fire fast enough. Besides, exponential makes sense. If you keep firing faster, you're shots are less likely every time to hit what your aiming. This and a smaller amount of ammo creates a more conscious effort to conserve shots and aim them well. This makes the BR less of a point and click weapon
Ah, SMG, your right.

Okay I agree, I see the light =P

  • 11.16.2009 3:03 PM PDT

"Dear Humanity; we regret being alien bastards. We regret coming to Earth. And we most definitely regret that the Corps just blew up our raggedy-ass fleet!"
—Avery J. Johnson
click it you know you want to

Posted by: elementf89
MLG is a huge part of halo, and encompasses a large part of the fan base.

Scince when? MLG is the minority in Halo. Most people don't have the time to play video games all their life, as most of MLG does, nor do they play Halo all the time.
Many say that the MLG style of play is the most competitive and fast paced way to play.
Competative, yes. Fast pace, not much more that any other Halo game.
For instance, any new gamer to halo can take an ar, and charge people for a few kills.
That was its point, it was made to be an all aroung gun.
However it takes accuracy and strategy to "out br" people who are good at the game.
No, only luck for most. If i can kill an "MLG" player with a magnum, then how is there skill in MLG?
Also, there is zero team work with AR games.
Wrong, there is no teamwork in Halo anymore. Save for objective games.
What is the point of calling out when everyone just has a spray gun that shoots literally up to 25 feet?
It's because that is where the majority reside.
My question is, does bungie care enough about the competitive community to taylor halo reach to continue to play well in the MLG style we have been playing for years?
I almost wet myself from laughing at this, MLG has changed many times over the coarse of Halo.
Or will they keep trying to chase the leisurely noob friendly style of play, which will attract the less talented, and less serious gamers who are now playing CoD?
They are all those who where "MLG" and those who like CoD as well as Halo. Remeber, Halo 3 is not the only game in the universe.

  • 11.16.2009 3:26 PM PDT

Not in the slightest. They just gave you the ability to change gametypes almost anyway you want them, and create a near infinite number of different custome maps because they hate you.

  • 11.16.2009 3:26 PM PDT

Of course they're not going to forget about competitive gaming. However, the most important thing is that Reach should be FUN for everyone. First, Bungie should worry about the majority, and then the minority.

  • 11.16.2009 3:58 PM PDT
  •  | 
  • Exalted Legendary Member

Posted by: privet caboose
The majority of the time I wonder if they care about their actual fans. Not casuals or MLG.

Look at what Bungie did for MLG.

They made Isolation for MLG purposes, and MLG doesn't touch the map.

They remade Lockout for MLG, and MLG doesn't use it.

Bungie remade Chillout for MLG, and MLG doesn't use it.

Bungie remade Heretic for MLG, they actual use this one.


But when the community begs and begs for maps like Coag or Headlong, of course they refuse those ideas.

It's just not right.


QFT. QF-mother effin-T.

And personally I dislike MLG. It's nothing but people who have way too much time on their hands. I know that some MLG Fanboy is going to look at my stats and say, "OMG UR ToD is the TURRET!!!!1" Yeah, that's because me and my brother kill stuff. Hard.

Oh, whoops. Wrong account. So, I guess you won't be able to look at my ToD. Sorry.

[Edited on 11.16.2009 4:10 PM PST]

  • 11.16.2009 4:09 PM PDT