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Subject: Halo 3's THREE "R's"
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While I realize that all of these issues have been discussed before, I find that they must continue to be discussed over and over again, until one thread ends up becoming the "go to" thread for the topic. While my thread may not become that, I hope it can facilitate conversation and ideas until the community comes to a more agreed upon conclusion. It is with this in mind that I would like to address the three "R's" of Halo that I believe are hotly debated due to their need for being addressed. With that being said, I do not claim to come to any concrete solutions about the exact "how's," but rather show more clearly what the issue is, and what you need to address in order to find the proper solutions.

As I will describe in detail below, I think that there are three major, overarching issues Bungie should address for Halo Reach. These issues are 1) a fair ranking system that protects high and low levels, while providing fair matches with appropriate skill gaps, 2)Weaponsets and gameplay that create a large skill gap that is beneficial for everyone, 3) Weaponsets that provide options, but not at the cost of functionality.

Ranking
While most would disagree with me, I don't think the trueskill system was a bad system. The problem with the system was not the system at all, but the people who used the system. People quickly found that their mothers were right, and they were the best at everything. Even though their trueskill told them they were a 40, they knew they were better and started a new account. Having their sigma/mu essentially reset, and taking a relatively few amount of games to get to the top, allowed players to have a very flexible system where they could rank up more quickly.

If everyone would have stuck with trueskill, everything would have been great. You achieve your level because you deserve it, and it's going to take some consistency on your part to prove that you deserve the next level (once you're settled into the system anyway). But as legit 40s saw other people who weren't any better than them rise up the ranks, they realized that they too deserved a higher level. Thus the saga began. Some of these egotistical fellows also realized that while they were down in the lower ranks, it was rather enjoyable to bolster their egos by beating up on the lower levels, and another breed of perverter was born.

So as we look at the ranking system, I think there are two important factors to address: 1) We must ensure fair matches. When there is injustice in the system, such as was seen with the first wave of multiaccounters, this perceived injustice inspires rebellion in the masses. People will be unsatisfied. 2) The ranking system should not only provide for a fair rank, but should prevent the low levels from the malicious predatory egotists, as well as the high ranks from inflation. And how do we do this?

I propose that a system be created where the levels rise (and fall) extremely fast at first. Bungie can use the trueskill system already provided, but they should also incorporate a skill system that helps them determine how good a player is. This can look at kills, assists, captures, place on the team, or any number of things. Players who are anomalies in a game (they are level 1 and get 28 kills and 2 deaths in a slayer game) should be shot up in the ranks. Heck, move a player like that up to a 40 on their second game. HOWEVER, since it's so easy to move up and down, a high skill should not be assigned to a playlist/account for X number of games (X being the amount of games agreed upon as providing an accurate indication of skill). From this point on, the primary ranking system (trueskill) can take over on its own if desired. This gets multiaccounters out of the low levels fast, and it prevents boosting with a reset sigma/mu or any other means, protecting the high levels.

oRganized Gameplay (it's like the "Rithmetic of Halo)

One of the major issues many have with Halo 3 is the "catering to casual players." Before I go any further, let me express that I have no interest in supporting either MLG or casual players for any particular reason. I am very competitive when it comes to games, but I also realize that many people just want to play for fun. That being said, I don't understand why we can't have both.

If Bungie would actually implement my ranking idea (or one with similar interests in protection), and if Bungie would actually cater its multiplayer weapon and map functionality to the hardcore, it would actually be more beneficial to them and the community for several reasons:

1. Bungie would benefit because the hardcore keep the community running and would stick with Halo longer term.
2. The hardcore would benefit as they would have fair and non-randomized competition more than they do now.
3. The casual players would benefit because a larger skill gap would be produced, meaning they would play people in ranked more on their skill level.

The people who argue for the casual players on here do so out of ignorance and bias. They hate the MLG community (sometimes for legitimate reasons), but don't realize that this isn't a casual vs. MLG argument, but an issue that affects competitive players and weekend warriors alike, whether they are in one group, the other, or neither. But really, a larger skill gap provides not only a fair compromise, but the best of both worlds for both groups, and everyone in between. Seeing the issue in light of the truth, there are a few things I think Bungie should look at to bump up the skill gap:

1. Take autoaim down significantly in the game (but not out completely), at least for ranked multiplayer if nothing else. It's easy for players to bump down sensitivity to compensate, but it's hard to bump up sensitivity, as the reticule is still sticky, and can easily move to another target unless moving the reticule quickly. If they want to (and more options are always better), allow for it to be adjusted for customs.

2. Take out or significantly reduce melee lunge (other than for the sword, etc) and direction correction.

3. Make it necessary to lead moving targets with the sniper, like they made for the BR in H3.

4. Make less equipment on maps, and/or cause them to have long respawn times so they can be controlled like power weapons. Take out or significantly reduce cheap equipment like regens and bubbles, but bring back the great tactical equipment like radar jammers.

5. Bump the movement speed up to what is 110% in H3, or a bit faster than that.

6. [I'll leave this and subsequent numbers for the rest of the community to tell me what would cause a larger skill gap without throwing the game off too much]

A larger skill gap is beneficial for everyone.

Range
One of the biggest issues discussed right now in Halo deals with weapons. Some think the BR is too powerful, some think it is too weak. Whatever you conclude, the fact is that there are a lot of redundant weapons without enough varying functionalities, and there are really only a few "go to" weapons. This makes for stale gameplay and relatively thoughtless gameplay in terms of weapon strategy. However, how can Bungie put in too many different functionalities to give options, yet not so much that the game becomes "rock, paper, scissors?"

As it stands, the SMG and other weapons like it are really worthless. They are remnants of another game and don't really have any legitimate functionality. The shotgun beats them close, the sniper beats them long, the BR beats them mid, and the AR beats them short-mid. If you combine them with a PR the results may be a little better for you, but take away grenade throwing and melee (of course you can do it, but then you lose what little advantage you had with your duals), and you really have a worthless weapon. Add to this that the only real functionality of the SMG/AR category is spraying bullets, and you have a relatively skilless gun as well.

There are far too many things Bungie could do for me to address them, and the point of this thread is to address the issue and discuss, not necessarily come up with all the solutions. You can't come up with solutions to a problem you do not know the causes to. Bungie could incorporate differing shield/health damages for different weapons, they could bring back the stun effect of plasma, and they could do a lot of other things. However, one of the things I think would be most affective to make better gameplay is to add in varying functionality to all weapons. If you spray with the SMG, make it very inaccurate like it is now. But if you pump it, there should be considerably more accuracy than there is now. You have ZERO chance with an SMG against a BR at any range whatsoever. Yes, the BR should win, but it shouldn't be without taking any damage. Right now, Halo is largely rock, paper, scissors. There should be advantages to weapons, but it shouldn't be at zero cost to the one who has the right weapon.

As we take a look out at longer ranges, we come to the notorious BR. The BR is a great weapon largely because it's the only weapon for mid range. The carbine is on few maps in any significant quantity, and even if it was, the BR has a three round burst, taking little skill, ensuring you hit at least part of your shot, and making headshots the easiest type of shot in the game due to its burst. Beyond the range of the AR, there is really only the BR, Sniper, and laser class. Considering we have AR starts, the game doesn't become a careful selection for what weapon would give you an advantage, but still require you to do some thinking, the answer becomes a given.

Dversity must come along with functionality, and not move into a "rock, paper, scissors" realm of gameplay. Being hopeless is sometimes a lot different than being helpless.

[Edited on 11.15.2009 11:42 AM PST]

  • 11.15.2009 11:00 AM PDT

This thread:

Retarded
Redundant
Recyclable (?)

  • 11.15.2009 11:02 AM PDT

Posted by: FinalHazard006
This thread:

Retarded
Redundant
Recyclable (?)

thou art correct.

  • 11.15.2009 11:14 AM PDT

Your in Bad Company.

Their is only one kind of retarded, and that is "FinalHazard006"


I agree with your "three R's" even if it has been said a million times before.

[Edited on 11.15.2009 11:20 AM PST]

  • 11.15.2009 11:15 AM PDT

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Posted by: Shishka
Everything will be gone long before me. When the first living thing was born, I was here, waiting. When the last living thing dies, my job is finished. I'll put the chairs on the tables, turn out the lights and lock the universe behind me when I leave.

I also agree with your three 'R's'.
Very intreaging.

[Edited on 11.15.2009 11:17 AM PST]

  • 11.15.2009 11:15 AM PDT

join my clan:
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Posted by: Shishka
Everything will be gone long before me. When the first living thing was born, I was here, waiting. When the last living thing dies, my job is finished. I'll put the chairs on the tables, turn out the lights and lock the universe behind me when I leave.

I don't get it.

  • 11.15.2009 11:16 AM PDT

Posted by: Tegernako
Their is only one kind of retarded, and that is "FinalHazard0006"


I agree with your "three R's" even if it has been said a million times before.

Oh cool, 'cause there isnt a FinalHazard0006 in here.

Also, OP, "oRganized" doesnt count, dumbass.

[Edited on 11.15.2009 11:18 AM PST]

  • 11.15.2009 11:16 AM PDT

Your in Bad Company.

Oh good, because we all know I wasn't talking about you and accidentaly added a zero.

You'd have to be a retard to think that, which it appears you are.

If it makes you feel better I'll edit it so it talks about you and you only.

  • 11.15.2009 11:19 AM PDT

Posted by: t4pb acryl
I don't get it.

lol pwnt.

oh yeah, tl;dr

  • 11.15.2009 11:20 AM PDT

I don't understand why you're looking at my profile. Just back off, and nobody gets hurt, okay?

hear, hear!

*thread saved*

  • 11.15.2009 11:22 AM PDT

Posted by: Tegernako
Oh good, because we all know I wasn't talking about you and accidentaly added a zero.

You'd have to be a retard to think that, which it appears you are.

If it makes you feel better I'll edit it so it talks about you and you only.

I'm a retard, yet you're the one getting all defensive because i pointed out that you put an extra 0, and thinking that i didnt know who you were talking about. Cool.

[Edited on 11.15.2009 11:27 AM PST]

  • 11.15.2009 11:22 AM PDT

If you read this, you've wasted a few seconds of your life.

I think that every weapon should get more range. The AR for example should get the BR's un-scoped range and the BR should get a greater range too. This way, the AR won't be so useles against the BR in midrange.

  • 11.15.2009 11:37 AM PDT

You, OP win.

I haven't even read the post, but just glancing shows you actually thought this through and made sure it was presentable and not straining on the eyes.

  • 11.15.2009 11:39 AM PDT

Your in Bad Company.

Yeah, It'd be awesome if they were more true to real life.

  • 11.15.2009 11:41 AM PDT

I'm not so sure that by increasing the amount of lead you need for your sniper shot is a good idea.

As of now I notice casual players have a hard enough time trying to BR, forget about them using a sniper.

I'll agree with you on everything else though

Maybe to change up the whole weapon thing is to implement a new rifle the can meet somewhere btwn the AR and BR.

It would be a starting weapon. The new rifle would allow you to do some damage to the snipers in the distance (unlike the AR) and it would prevent the BR from being too overpowered

  • 11.15.2009 11:52 AM PDT

Your in Bad Company.

Like a single shot BR?

  • 11.15.2009 11:53 AM PDT

I personally say get rid of this MLG gamers and 'casual' gamers.

When I play, I like to have a balanced match where both sides aren't easily overpowering another. But at the same time I don't give a -blam!- if I lose the game or die during the battle, I move on and have fun.

  • 11.15.2009 11:54 AM PDT
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Posted by: Annihilated You
I'm not so sure that by increasing the amount of lead you need for your sniper shot is a good idea.
You have to take into account that lower level players play lower level players. If they suck at the game, a sniper that leads won't matter to them. If I'm a 1, my targets aren't going to be sprinting back and forth from cover to cover, they'll be standing still for 10 seconds over a shiny weapon they see on the ground, looking at the picture and "press x to change weapons" at the top of their screen. Leading would only come in more at higher levels.

Posted by: Annihilated You
Maybe to change up the whole weapon thing is to implement a new rifle the can meet somewhere btwn the AR and BR.

It would be a starting weapon. The new rifle would allow you to do some damage to the snipers in the distance (unlike the AR) and it would prevent the BR from being too overpowered


I agree. The current AR is insufficient to do you much good on many of the maps. The pistol isn't helpful either, as it has a minimum accurate range. When you get on maps like Last Resort or other open maps, you're screwed without a BR.

  • 11.15.2009 11:57 AM PDT

I think the silenced ODST smg would do a good job as a starting weapon. It has a good enough range when scoped and burst fired to knock a sniper out of scope or to damage a BR player but most likely not enough to kill them.

  • 11.15.2009 2:32 PM PDT

Here’s what Luke had to say about the differences in treatment between the Spartans and Elites in Reach:

“Instead of piece-by-piece customization like the Spartans, Elite customization is a full model swap with models selected from the various Elite classes appearing throughout the Campaign. There are all kinds of reasons for this, not the least of which is our continued emphasis on the Spartan as your identity in Reach.”

Posted by: Tegernako
Like a single shot BR?
= Carbine

The way to maintain competitive players and recreatonal players is to allow a high amount of customization so that whatever group is using the game, they can cater it to their specifics.

The way Bungie has it set up now seems to work well, with 1 playlist dedicated to the largest competitive organization, several more to the competitive players, and another set of playlists for more casual players.

  • 11.15.2009 2:37 PM PDT
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Posted by: Uncle Kulikov
Posted by: Tegernako
Like a single shot BR?
= Carbine

The way to maintain competitive players and recreatonal players is to allow a high amount of customization so that whatever group is using the game, they can cater it to their specifics.

The way Bungie has it set up now seems to work well, with 1 playlist dedicated to the largest competitive organization, several more to the competitive players, and another set of playlists for more casual players.


I agree that customization is important, and I appreciate the customization Bungie has brought here. That being said, they focus on peripheral issues (how many of what weapons on a map, what vehicles on a map, etc) as opposed to giving the ability to customize core skill issues (lunge, autoaim, br burst, bullet speed necessitating leading shots, speed [which is very limited now, as there are very few game working options between 100-200%, etc).

Posted by: in the Krutch
I think the silenced ODST smg would do a good job as a starting weapon. It has a good enough range when scoped and burst fired to knock a sniper out of scope or to damage a BR player but most likely not enough to kill them.


I agree, though I'd have to see how the power is in multiplayer to make a final decision.

[Edited on 11.15.2009 2:44 PM PST]

  • 11.15.2009 2:41 PM PDT

Here’s what Luke had to say about the differences in treatment between the Spartans and Elites in Reach:

“Instead of piece-by-piece customization like the Spartans, Elite customization is a full model swap with models selected from the various Elite classes appearing throughout the Campaign. There are all kinds of reasons for this, not the least of which is our continued emphasis on the Spartan as your identity in Reach.”

Posted by: fifthderelicte
I agree that customization is important, and I appreciate the customization Bungie has brought here. That being said, they focus on peripheral issues (how many of what weapons on a map, what vehicles on a map, etc) as opposed to giving the ability to customize core skill issues (lunge, autoaim, br burst, bullet speed necessitating leading shots, speed [which is very limited now, as there are very few game working options between 100-200%, etc).

I can see that.

The reason Bungie chose to leave those options immutable was to preserve the core gameplay.

With these constant variables, they can playtest and balance. Changing any of the values you mentioned can throw off that balance.

I would also like more options like you describe. I hope for toggle, like Autoaim: strong, medium, low, off.
BR spread: realistic, medium, low (halo 3), off (halo 2).
Damage: numeric value, per shot
Melee Mode: Lunge (halo 3, Halo 2) or Area of effect (halo 1)
More setting for player speed, damage, and health would be appreciated as well.

You should also be able to change Overshield and Invisibility settings. I know you can do it in the custom powerup, but you only get that one type of custom powerup.

Edit:
Im drooling at the thought of an AR with BR bullet speed and a tightened spread...

[Edited on 11.15.2009 3:04 PM PST]

  • 11.15.2009 3:03 PM PDT

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I agree 100% with everything you've stated. I've been increasingly disappointed as to how casual Bungie is taking their Halo games since Halo 1. Halo 2 had extreme auto aim and magnetism and the gameplay was heavily toned down from Halo 1. Halo 3 has less auto aim than Halo 2, but the gameplay is just right on the same level of casual as Halo 2 was.

Take the randomness of the BR's bullet spread for example. What is up with that? If I am able to get the drop on someone from behind and get a successful position to flank an enemy, why should they be able to easily turn around, throw a Grenade at me and pull the trigger once to kill me if my aiming has been consistently spot as the entire time shooting them? Random bullet spread, that's how. I heavily disagree with the idea of "chance" and "luck" in any game because is it my fault that even though I was able to outsmart the other player, the game decided it would make all of my shots go wild, therefore giving the other player an opportunity to capitalize on the game's inconsistencies?

No. It's poor gameplay mechanics and terrible game design.



Now, when you talk about rank I also wanted to say that I completely agree with being able to rank up fast and drop fast, depending on your results. Heck, I even felt that sometimes it would be a better ranking system if that for everyone win you rank up 1 and for every loss you derank 1, while also taking other factors into consideration. Either way, something has to change but NOT to the effect that you COMPLETELY change the ranking system to systems like CoD games or Gears of War 2... because those don't reflect skill. They just show how much you spend playing the game...



Lastly, I completely agree with different weapon functionality and making each weapon actually USEFUL again, much like how each weapon had a strong purpose in Halo 1 (Needler aside lol). In order to do this, I believe they need to take away dual wielding because let's face it, they're just going to dumb down the weapons in order for you to be able to dual wield them. Take the Halo 3 Magnum for example. Single-wielded, it takes 5 shots to kill someone (ending with a headshot), however if you dual wield it then it takes 7 shots to kill someone (from alternating fire with each Magnum). How does this possibly make sense? That right there is just a CLEAR example of how Bungie felt the need to dumb down gameplay and make these unnecessary "tweaks" to what they thought would "balance" the gameplay for everybody.





I was actually typing up a thread with some similar ideas but expanding a lot more with how Halo has gradually became much more sluggish and casual, but I haven't continued typing it in a few days. Fifth, if you're willing to help a bit let me know because I like how you think and pay attention to detail without being a troll like many other people on these forums.

  • 11.15.2009 3:07 PM PDT
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Posted by: Uncle Kulikov
Posted by: fifthderelicte
I agree that customization is important, and I appreciate the customization Bungie has brought here. That being said, they focus on peripheral issues (how many of what weapons on a map, what vehicles on a map, etc) as opposed to giving the ability to customize core skill issues (lunge, autoaim, br burst, bullet speed necessitating leading shots, speed [which is very limited now, as there are very few game working options between 100-200%, etc).

I can see that.

The reason Bungie chose to leave those options immutable was to preserve the core gameplay.

With these constant variables, they can playtest and balance. Changing any of the values you mentioned can throw off that balance.

I would also like more options like you describe. I hope for toggle, like Autoaim: strong, medium, low, off.
BR spread: realistic, medium, low (halo 3), off (halo 2).
Damage: numeric value, per shot
Melee Mode: Lunge (halo 3, Halo 2) or Area of effect (halo 1)
More setting for player speed, damage, and health would be appreciated as well.

You should also be able to change Overshield and Invisibility settings. I know you can do it in the custom powerup, but you only get that one type of custom powerup.

Edit:
Im drooling at the thought of an AR with BR bullet speed and a tightened spread...


I completely agree. There would be no reason for complaint with customization like this.

  • 11.15.2009 3:22 PM PDT
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Posted by: UNKNOWN iXi
Lastly, I completely agree with different weapon functionality and making each weapon actually USEFUL again, much like how each weapon had a strong purpose in Halo 1 (Needler aside lol). In order to do this, I believe they need to take away dual wielding because let's face it, they're just going to dumb down the weapons in order for you to be able to dual wield them. Take the Halo 3 Magnum for example. Single-wielded, it takes 5 shots to kill someone (ending with a headshot), however if you dual wield it then it takes 7 shots to kill someone (from alternating fire with each Magnum). How does this possibly make sense? That right there is just a CLEAR example of how Bungie felt the need to dumb down gameplay and make these unnecessary "tweaks" to what they thought would "balance" the gameplay for everybody.
I agree. Dual wielding is out the window and doesn't have much functionality as it is. I've seen lots of threads out there discussing fixes for this, but that's not the scope of my ideas at the moment. Very good points.

[My bad on the double post : I meant to copy and paste into my previous edited post]

[Edited on 11.15.2009 3:27 PM PST]

  • 11.15.2009 3:26 PM PDT

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