Halo: Reach Forum
This topic has moved here: Poll [67 votes]: Health Packs?
  • Poll [67 votes]: Health Packs?
  • Pages:
  • 1
  • 2
  • of 2
Subject: Health Packs?
  • gamertag: vrbtny
  • user homepage:

T.O.A.S.T stands for: Totally. Over. Analyzing. Short. Trailers.

Poll: Health Packs?  [closed]
Yes:  49%
(33 Votes)
No:  34%
(23 Votes)
Carry able:  16%
(11 Votes)
Total Votes: 67

I was searching around the internet, when i stumbled across the leaked pictures.

I know they are probably fake, but they appeared to have health bars.

This set me thinking, would health packs be a good thing or bad thing to have in reach?

Also the VISR?

  • 11.17.2009 4:31 PM PDT

"Dear Humanity; we regret being alien bastards. We regret coming to Earth. And we most definitely regret that the Corps just blew up our raggedy-ass fleet!"
—Avery J. Johnson
click it you know you want to

I would like health packs, reminds me of the good ol' days.

  • 11.17.2009 4:33 PM PDT

No signature found. Click here to change this.

They would be a good thing. Not being able to visually see your health is a real pain. And if they get rid of that horrid beeping that constantly reminds you you're almost dead, then it may even have a taste of the awesome that was Halo Combat Evolved.

  • 11.17.2009 4:36 PM PDT
  • gamertag: [none]
  • user homepage:

Why are you reading my signature? Who actually opens these things and reads them!

And as always, SEND ME A PM. Please. Or really bad things will happen to you.

I want to know how fast Bungie plans on having them respawn. They will definitely add a level of play that has never been seen online before. You can now hold a team back by holding a position where a health pack spawns. I wonder if each base will have one inside and one outside. I can see there being trouble if there are too few, and them being useless if there are too many.

  • 11.17.2009 4:41 PM PDT
  • gamertag: BJRSCJ
  • user homepage:

Why I don't want healthpacks (notice, I did not say I don't want a health bar, I said healthpack, or a pick-up health system):

1. Healthpacks don't inherently create better tactics. Sure, camping kiosks can be a tactic, but does that really add to the game? Sure, counting the cost before rushing into battle is important, but don't we do that now? Don't you determine if going into battle is worth it based on if you will live or die? If you mean that you should carry the punishment of damage across battles, are you saying that you think good tactics are equal to those where you come out with no damage at all? How is that even possible in most situations?

2. Healthpacks are redundant and have the potential to diminish teamwork. We are already punished for losing a fight as well as for getting hurt in a fight - our shields go down. While you say healthpacks increase tactics by making you only engage when - not only certain of a win - but certain of no damage done to self, couldn't this discourage teamwork in some ways? Right now it's vital that a teammate assists you or your opponent can walk away from a fight and have shields back up within twenty seconds. Having a teammate with you gives you a higher chance for a kill. With healthpacks, you can hurt a guy and be happy, because you know it'll be easy to clean them up later.

I would like to note that I realize healthpacks can also encourage teamwork, as team firing not only kills faster, but reduces damage done to you. However, teamwork is vital now but isn't always used. How many times have you died and wished a teammate would have cleaned up the kill? With healthpacks, dieing in a fight alone isn't so bad.

3. Healthpacks slow down the gameplay. Halo is one of the slowest paced shooters out there. Don't get me wrong, I love it. It can definitely be intense and fast paced, but it's a relatively slow shooter based on the type of map control and weapon sets necessitated. If you add healthpacks, it will invariably slow down the game. No, I don't have scientific evidence for this, but common sense has tended to serve me well in the past. I love Halo as it is, even though it's slow, but I can't imagine it being much slower and being enjoyable. That, of course, is just my opinion.

4. Objective games go out the window with healthpacks. OK, so of course Bungie could shift some things to make objective games work with healthpacks. However, I don't think healthpacks are very conducive to this type of gameplay. If my team assaults a base and kill everyone fairly quickly, but before we get out, the team starts to spawn - we're low on health. We don't have time to go look for health in between our killing and their spawning because we need the objective.

5. Randomness is even more evident in healthpack gameplay. Taking the concept of number four into slayer, if I lose a fight on the enemy's side or near an enemy spawn, I am instantly at a disadvantage. Why? I have superior map control, I earned my power weapon, and now some guy who isn't as good as me spawns in front of me. Of course I'd normally be able to take him, but not now, as I'm low on health. When we talk about spawn kills now, it's usually the one who spawns who gets owned. But now you're turning the tables and making it a disadvantage to be aggressive and be skillful. Regenerating shields/health provides players with a fair fight each time. If they get out of the fights they choose to enter (or are entered into by an action of the enemy) due to better skills, luck, or poor teamwork on the other side, great. But with health, you really randomize the fights and take away the fair fight concept.

As one possible result, I could see teams grabbing the power weapons and just sitting. Some do this now depending on the maps, but a lot of good teams take control of the middle and are aggressive. But with a health system on top of the shields, this would be a bad move. Now teams will always sit back on their own side so that when a power weapon is lost (as it will be fairly quickly, as the health is depleted) and you take away the fair fight), it drops on their side.

6. Complexity does not always mean better. Adding a healthpack to the game would definitely add complexity, but so would making a player jump up and down and turn around three times before they fired each bullet. Add a little dizzying effect for MC and it would take a lot of skill and judgment to hit another player... I know that's not really a fair comparison, but I hope you see my point. Complexity can definitely add a skillful element to the game, but sometimes making something more complex is deleterious to gameplay and skillful tactics.

Healthpacks, IMO, are a complexity that takes away from the game. They bring in randomness, cheap tactics, redundancy, slow gameplay, and a plethora of other minor annoyances. I don't think it would absolutely be gamebreaking, and I'm sure I'd still play and like Reach. However, the fluidity of multiplayer would be greatly diminished. Just play ODST for a while and you'll see how much you have to sit and wait. As it is now, the lack of healthpacks allow tactics to be performed over and over again relatively quickly, as opposed to waiting for your teammate to go get a healthpack before you attack, falling back because one of your team needs a healthpack, etc.

I just don't think healthpacks add any strategizing that isn't already there in Halo without them.

Posted by: Cranium Crater
I want to know how fast Bungie plans on having them respawn. They will definitely add a level of play that has never been seen online before.
I could name a thousand (literally, I'm fairly sure) games that have played online with healthpacks. They don't add strategy, they add drudgery.

[Edited on 11.17.2009 4:48 PM PST]

  • 11.17.2009 4:43 PM PDT

I will be there to answer your questions! No matter how obvious or stupid they may be, don't be afraid to ask. It'll pay off in the long haul.

Yes, it would be nice.

But keep it like HaloCE, where theres no BLAM! beeping and your screen dosn't blare red.

  • 11.17.2009 4:44 PM PDT

I will be there to answer your questions! No matter how obvious or stupid they may be, don't be afraid to ask. It'll pay off in the long haul.

Posted by: fifthderelicte
Why I don't want healthpacks (notice, I did not say I don't want a health bar, I said healthpack, or a pick-up health system):

1. Healthpacks don't inherently create better tactics. Sure, camping kiosks can be a tactic, but does that really add to the game? Sure, counting the cost before rushing into battle is important, but don't we do that now? Don't you determine if going into battle is worth it based on if you will live or die? If you mean that you should carry the punishment of damage across battles, are you saying that you think good tactics are equal to those where you come out with no damage at all? How is that even possible in most situations?

2. Healthpacks are redundant and have the potential to diminish teamwork. We are already punished for losing a fight as well as for getting hurt in a fight - our shields go down. While you say healthpacks increase tactics by making you only engage when - not only certain of a win - but certain of no damage done to self, couldn't this discourage teamwork in some ways? Right now it's vital that a teammate assists you or your opponent can walk away from a fight and have shields back up within twenty seconds. Having a teammate with you gives you a higher chance for a kill. With healthpacks, you can hurt a guy and be happy, because you know it'll be easy to clean them up later.

I would like to note that I realize healthpacks can also encourage teamwork, as team firing not only kills faster, but reduces damage done to you. However, teamwork is vital now but isn't always used. How many times have you died and wished a teammate would have cleaned up the kill? With healthpacks, dieing in a fight alone isn't so bad.

3. Healthpacks slow down the gameplay. Halo is one of the slowest paced shooters out there. Don't get me wrong, I love it. It can definitely be intense and fast paced, but it's a relatively slow shooter based on the type of map control and weapon sets necessitated. If you add healthpacks, it will invariably slow down the game. No, I don't have scientific evidence for this, but common sense has tended to serve me well in the past. I love Halo as it is, even though it's slow, but I can't imagine it being much slower and being enjoyable. That, of course, is just my opinion.

4. Objective games go out the window with healthpacks. OK, so of course Bungie could shift some things to make objective games work with healthpacks. However, I don't think healthpacks are very conducive to this type of gameplay. If my team assaults a base and kill everyone fairly quickly, but before we get out, the team starts to spawn - we're low on health. We don't have time to go look for health in between our killing and their spawning because we need the objective.

5. Randomness is even more evident in healthpack gameplay. Taking the concept of number four into slayer, if I lose a fight on the enemy's side or near an enemy spawn, I am instantly at a disadvantage. Why? I have superior map control, I earned my power weapon, and now some guy who isn't as good as me spawns in front of me. Of course I'd normally be able to take him, but not now, as I'm low on health. When we talk about spawn kills now, it's usually the one who spawns who gets owned. But now you're turning the tables and making it a disadvantage to be aggressive and be skillful. Regenerating shields/health provides players with a fair fight each time. If they get out of the fights they choose to enter (or are entered into by an action of the enemy) due to better skills, luck, or poor teamwork on the other side, great. But with health, you really randomize the fights and take away the fair fight concept.

As one possible result, I could see teams grabbing the power weapons and just sitting. Some do this now depending on the maps, but a lot of good teams take control of the middle and are aggressive. But with a health system on top of the shields, this would be a bad move. Now teams will always sit back on their own side so that when a power weapon is lost (as it will be fairly quickly, as the health is depleted) and you take away the fair fight), it drops on their side.

6. Complexity does not always mean better. Adding a healthpack to the game would definitely add complexity, but so would making a player jump up and down and turn around three times before they fired each bullet. Add a little dizzying effect for MC and it would take a lot of skill and judgment to hit another player... I know that's not really a fair comparison, but I hope you see my point. Complexity can definitely add a skillful element to the game, but sometimes making something more complex is deleterious to gameplay and skillful tactics.

Healthpacks, IMO, are a complexity that takes away from the game. They bring in randomness, cheap tactics, redundancy, slow gameplay, and a plethora of other minor annoyances. I don't think it would absolutely be gamebreaking, and I'm sure I'd still play and like Reach. However, the fluidity of multiplayer would be greatly diminished. Just play ODST for a while and you'll see how much you have to sit and wait. As it is now, the lack of healthpacks allow tactics to be performed over and over again relatively quickly, as opposed to waiting for your teammate to go get a healthpack before you attack, falling back because one of your team needs a healthpack, etc.

I just don't think healthpacks add any strategizing that isn't already there in Halo without them.


^ you bring up a lot of great points, points I'll admit I didn't really think through.

One of the things I love in Halo is how when your finished with a battle you can jump right back in there with full sheilds. None of that, go back I need a Health pack stuff.

  • 11.17.2009 4:48 PM PDT
  • gamertag: BJRSCJ
  • user homepage:

Posted by: Hellzwolfz666
To be perfectly honest, I believe some of the points are hyperbolized. I don't really think it would be a hopeless game with health, but I think it would go downhill. Plus, everyone hyperbolizes (yes, I know it's not a word, but I like verbing things) the good healthpacks will do, so it's all fair and balanced...

  • 11.17.2009 4:53 PM PDT

PLEASE DO NOT SEND ME GROUP INVITATIONS

The Halo REACH Script (post thoughts in thread)

Writing Lead of Whisper Studios. Check out Heron!

Look... I'm on bungiepedia!

I want Health bars but no Health packs.

  • 11.17.2009 5:08 PM PDT

.:. îXî - $ìgñ øf thé GøÐz .:.


My Profile - iXi Gaming


Î ũňķñ{ǾẄŃ} ū

Posted by: fifthderelicte
Why I don't want healthpacks (notice, I did not say I don't want a health bar, I said healthpack, or a pick-up health system):

1. Healthpacks don't inherently create better tactics.


Not better, but different and adds an even newer layer of tactics.

2. Healthpacks are redundant and have the potential to diminish teamwork.

Not true. Look at Halo 1.

3. Healthpacks slow down the gameplay.

Not true. Look at Halo 1.

... Seriously, Halo 1 had the fastest and most frantic gameplay of all 3 Halo games.

4. Objective games go out the window with healthpacks.

Not true. Look at Halo 1.

5. Randomness is even more evident in healthpack gameplay.

To a certain degree. With the example you gave, isn't it ALSO skillful to remain alive if someone were to spawn right in front of you and you had health?

Either way, again look at Halo 1. It was not as bad as you portray.

Also, with the example you gave regarding teams who are in control of the map take a look at Hang 'Em High from Halo 1. It's all placement of the health packs... There was one health pack in the trench in the middle of the map which was rather open, but with proper cover fire, both from yourself and your teammate/s, it was successful to get. There was also another health pack in the Shotgun tunnel on that map. Even take a map like Chill Out... The health packs were spaced around that map very well and didn't hurt the gameplay whatsoever.

6. Complexity does not always mean better.

Again, you're exaggerating. Just look at Halo 1.





I think you keep expecting the worst case scenario in things... I think if this WERE to be implemented into Halo Reach, Bungie would do it correctly where it's balanced and easily becomes 2nd nature again like it was in Halo 1. There are far worse things to worry about than healthpacks which might I add again, originally worked flawlessly in Halo 1.

[Edited on 11.17.2009 5:40 PM PST]

  • 11.17.2009 5:29 PM PDT

The two key aspects to having health packs in a game instead of regenerating health are:1, the health packs must be placed correctly in the map, and 2, the health packs must fit in with the gameplay.

Generally speaking, health packs should be placed in areas that are commonly transversed when attacking across the map or located near the main battlefields. It is important that health packs are located in places where they are easily accessible, but not directly in the locations that a team wishes to hold.

More importantly, health packs must also fit into the gameplay. Health packs fit in Halo CE because it was more of a dueling shooter. Most battles were one on one with more focus on each player's individual shooting and strafing skills. No matter the result, each player was rewarded (or not rewarded) relative to their skill. The winner gets a kill and the loser takes off a portion of the winner's life which will carry over into the next battle unless the winner finds a health pack.

The faster kill speeds in Halo CE are also important. When one player got a jump on another, it was not uncommon for the advantaged player to win a battle without take any damage to his health. In this case, victory has nothing to do with health and everything to do with superior tactics. Camping is actually hurt by not having regenerating health because it forces campers to leave their positions. Camping health packs would not be a concern as long as they are placed in locations that are not advantageous to hold (potential grenade traps and open locations).

The final important aspect of Halo CE was that many of the maps were separated into various rooms. These rooms played into the dueling shooter aspect of Halo CE and afforded players a sort of safety after a battle.

Health packs do not fit as well in Halo 3 because many battles are slower and the difficulty to hit your opponent has decreased. Unless the enemy has a power weapon, players can get ambushed from behind and still have enough time to throw a well-placed grenade or, thanks to crappy hit detection, put four shots into their opponent while the opponent fails to get a headshot. As well, Halo 3 has more open maps which allow players to put shots on opponents from almost anywhere. Health packs would not work in Halo 3 because there would be few opportunities to grab one.

Posted by: fifthderelicte
(snipped for length)

You brought up a lot of interesting and valid points. For all of them, it really depends how Halo: Reach turns out. As I mentioned above, if it turns out to have combat similar to Halo 3, I would be against health packs. If Bungie changes direction and goes for an experience similar to Halo CE, I believe that Health packs could work (emphasis on "could").

  • 11.17.2009 5:40 PM PDT

.:. îXî - $ìgñ øf thé GøÐz .:.


My Profile - iXi Gaming


Î ũňķñ{ǾẄŃ} ū

On top of what I mentioned before, I also STRONGLY disagree with regenerating health bars. If health bars are in Reach, but health packs aren't, then they should NOT regenerate slowly over time because what would that lead to?

...




-wait for it-




...

MASSIVE camping. The only way it would not cause an increase to camping is if it regenerated extremely fast, but then what would be the point?

  • 11.17.2009 5:45 PM PDT

(1)the only way to escape death is death itself.
(2) pwn the world bungie
(3) never give in to BS, your always going good in your own way.

yeah... I want to have health packs. Also the ability to take health packs with you. Most other games that has health packs have someway to carry health with you.

  • 11.17.2009 5:50 PM PDT

OFF TOPIC: ARMOUR OWNS HEALTH! READ MY TOPIC!

ON TOPIC:...

  • 11.17.2009 5:51 PM PDT
  • gamertag: BJRSCJ
  • user homepage:

Posted by: UNKNOWN iXi
Not better, but different and adds an even newer layer of tactics.[/quote] Health packs have graced our presence for decades now, and many games still have them. I go to Halo because it's different by not having healthpacks (for one reason, anyway). Different isn't necessarily better.

Posted by: UNKNOWN iXi
2. Healthpacks are redundant and have the potential to diminish teamwork.

Not true. Look at Halo 1.
I said potential, though I could have said that it will. Look at H1 and you will see teamfiring relatively non-existant. Yes, there was still teamwork, but it wasn't as big of a role. Now that may be a good thing, as we want not only teamwork, but an individual component, but I believe that exists in the game right now.

Posted by: UNKNOWN iXi
3. Healthpacks slow down the gameplay.

Not true. Look at Halo 1. I'm basing this off incorporating packs into current style Halo. I believe they would slow that down. Halo 1 was a lot different with maps setups, weapon balance, and time to kill.


Posted by: UNKNOWN iXi
... Seriously, Halo 1 had the fastest and most frantic gameplay of all 3 Halo games.


Posted by: UNKNOWN iXi
4. Objective games go out the window with healthpacks.

Not true. Look at Halo 1.
Again, different game mechanics. And I don't think I am wrong on this, even for H1. CTF was extremely difficult. It's not bad to be difficult to cap a flag, but games were SO SLOW. Winning wasn't just about good tactics, you had to get pretty lucky to hit the other team at just the right time.

Posted by: UNKNOWN iXi
5. Randomness is even more evident in healthpack gameplay.

To a certain degree. With the example you gave, isn't it ALSO skillful to remain alive if someone were to spawn right in front of you and you had health?
Yes, but it's random. Put two evenly matched players against each other and the one with more health will win. The one who then has the advantage is the person who gets the power weapons and camps home as opposed to losing them up front. It's skillful, but not probably against equal opponents. The basis shouldn't be random.

Posted by: UNKNOWN iXi
Also, with the example you gave regarding teams who are in control of the map take a look at Hang 'Em High from Halo 1. It's all placement of the health packs... There was one health pack in the trench in the middle of the map which was rather open, but with proper cover fire, both from yourself and your teammate/s, it was successful to get. There was also another health pack in the Shotgun tunnel on that map. Even take a map like Chill Out... The health packs were spaced around that map very well and didn't hurt the gameplay whatsoever.
I think placement would have a lot to do with it.
Posted by: UNKNOWN iXi
6. Complexity does not always mean better.

Again, you're exaggerating. Just look at Halo 1.
If it wasn't this thread, I said somewhere that I was exaggerating. I'm pointing out the one extreme because healthpack supporters point out the others. They talk about how wonderful and complex it would make the game, when really, it would be neutral, or IMO, harmful. At the best, it would only be somewhat beneficial if I'm wrong.

Posted by: UNKNOWN iXi
I think you keep expecting the worst case scenario in things... I think if this WERE to be implemented into Halo Reach, Bungie would do it correctly where it's balanced and easily becomes 2nd nature again like it was in Halo 1. There are far worse things to worry about than healthpacks which might I add again, originally worked flawlessly in Halo 1.

Posted by: Radi0Ac7iv3
More importantly, health packs must also fit into the gameplay. Health packs fit in Halo CE because it was more of a dueling shooter. Most battles were one on one with more focus on each player's individual shooting and strafing skills. No matter the result, each player was rewarded (or not rewarded) relative to their skill. The winner gets a kill and the loser takes off a portion of the winner's life which will carry over into the next battle unless the winner finds a health pack.
I fully agree. The type of weapons and the gameplay significantly affects my dislike of healthpacks, as I'm imagining putting them into H3 style play and balance. However, I don't know if I like the idea of wounding for later, as that focuses more on 1v1 than team, and it also discourages fair battles each time. It promotes more randomness.

Posted by: Radi0Ac7iv3
The faster kill speeds in Halo CE are also important. When one player got a jump on another, it was not uncommon for the advantaged player to win a battle without take any damage to his health. In this case, victory has nothing to do with health and everything to do with superior tactics.
That is almost unavoidable against good teams and typically comes as a result of camping or foolishness on the part of the other person. Imagine how slow the game could go if people were scared of losing their health and always waited for perfection.

Posted by: Radi0Ac7iv3
Camping is actually hurt by not having regenerating health because it forces campers to leave their positions. Camping health packs would not be a concern as long as they are placed in locations that are not advantageous to hold (potential grenade traps and open locations).
This is one thing I see frequently, but strongly disagree with. Camping is far more productive, ESPECIALLY if your health is down. If you place packs at heavily traversed areas and I have low health, the chances of me dying on the way to health are high. Camping allows you to get proportionally more kills, especially if you're low on health. You have the element of surprise and can pick your spot. Going for the healths that are placed sparsely and on heavily traveled, open places is risky. I believe camping would be increased for hurt players, as well as on healthpack spots.

[Edited on 11.18.2009 10:34 AM PST]

  • 11.18.2009 9:58 AM PDT

1.Arkham Asylum, 2.Mass Effect, 3.Halo CE, 4.Mass Effect 2, 5.Halo 2, 6.Splinter Cell Double Agent, 7.Gears of War 2, 8.Medievil, 9.Oblivion, 10.Crash Team Racing

Posted by: fifthderelicte
Posted by: Hellzwolfz666
To be perfectly honest, I believe some of the points are hyperbolized. I don't really think it would be a hopeless game with health, but I think it would go downhill. Plus, everyone hyperbolizes (yes, I know it's not a word, but I like verbing things) the good healthpacks will do, so it's all fair and balanced...


Wow. You really fine tuned your statement on health packs.

I'm perfectly happy if we get them. Having 2 recharging shields is more redutant than anything. 2 different kinds of health make things much more complex.

  • 11.18.2009 10:07 AM PDT

.:. îXî - $ìgñ øf thé GøÐz .:.


My Profile - iXi Gaming


Î ũňķñ{ǾẄŃ} ū

I still think you're looking too deep into the extremes on many issues and not believing that Bungie can pull it off like how they did in Halo 1. They made it work.

For example you talk about balance and camping or even how certain situations can be unfair, but you talk about these situations as if it were to only be one-sided. These scenarios would be occurring to both teams, not just to one player or one side, so if you were to run out for a health and die more BECAUSE of it, then you could also flip that around and kill more people because THEY need health like you did previously. It's all about balance, not just one-sided extremes.


Now, you keep referring to teamwork and team firing. Ok, TEAM FIRING was clearly more evident in Halo 2 and Halo 3, I got that, but you CAN'T keep suggesting that there is LESS teamwork in Halo 1 because it required LESS team firing. Team firing isn't the go-to source for defining teamwork in Halo games... There are many other aspects to be included, such as strategies to approach situations which weighs much more on teamwork than team firing will ever hold. Not to mention the fact that if your team was well-coordinated in Halo 1 and worked on taking out people together on more open maps like Hang 'Em High or Rat Race, then that also shows team firing in Halo 1. You're way of explaining these types of things keeps falling back on team firing as the main source of defining teamwork when it really is not and you make it seem as though Halo 1 had little to none of that, which again is not the case if you've played it competitively like I assumed you have.



Before we continue this I would just like to know something. You're against health packs, ok I get that. However, I think I recall you saying you want a health bar, correct? If so, would you want it to be regenerating over time? If so again, would you want it to be fast or slow?

  • 11.18.2009 10:15 AM PDT

Hey! Listen! HEY!- The words of Navi

Wait a minute, I thought Health was is Halo 3, you just couldnt see it or restore it.

  • 11.18.2009 10:22 AM PDT
  • gamertag: BJRSCJ
  • user homepage:

Before I respond, I want to mention that I love to debate issues. At the start, I thought that healthpacks logically lead to worse gameplay. I've been playing videogames since the early 90s, and multiplayer since games like Halo, Tribes, and Unreal were out. I've played plenty of games with healthpacks and know how that gameplay works. Halo is a bit unique with the shields, I agree, but overall, the game experience with healthpacks I find less enjoyable.

That being said, while my arguments appear to be argued with a lot of motivation behind them, I wouldn't mind my mind to be changed. Actually, I do agree with a lot of your points, as you shall see. I am feeling much less depressed at the possible inclusion of health in HR because of this discussion, and am actually seeing some bright sides to it. However, there are two things that still worry me about it:

1) If the gameplay doesn't change much from H3 and move more towards a type of game that could support health (quicker kills and a more individualized focus on kills), I wouldn't like it. One major point I agree with you on is teamwork. Teamwork is still evident in HCE, but HCE focuses a lot on individual skill as well. You CAN have both. If Bungie would change the game to create a larger skill gap (which as you know, I heavily argue), I think health could be good.

2. The health has to be properly placed in position, number, and respawn time or it would SUCK. It's a pretty big hit or miss thing here.

Posted by: UNKNOWN iXi
I still think you're looking too deep into the extremes on many issues and not believing that Bungie can pull it off like how they did in Halo 1. They made it work.
Right, but again, how much are you/others exaggerating at how much it would add to the game and not taking into account the potential downsides?

Posted by: UNKNOWN iXi
For example you talk about balance and camping or even how certain situations can be unfair, but you talk about these situations as if it were to only be one-sided. These scenarios would be occurring to both teams, not just to one player or one side, so if you were to run out for a health and die more BECAUSE of it, then you could also flip that around and kill more people because THEY need health like you did previously. It's all about balance, not just one-sided extremes.
My point was that if your health is down, you'll probably camp. That occuring on both sides is not a positive, in my opinion. I said that they WON'T run out to get the health, so no, you don't get it evened out in a positive way.

Also, just because something exists for all does not make it fair. The H2 rockets are a perfect example. You got those and a banshee and your team automatically won. Was it fair (or should I say gamebreaking) that a team one automatically in the first 20 seconds of gameplay? Healthpacks won't be like the H2 Rocks/Banshee combo, but the point is that just because something exists, it does not make the gameplay good or fitting.
Posted by: UNKNOWN iXi
Now, you keep referring to teamwork and team firing. Ok, TEAM FIRING was clearly more evident in Halo 2 and Halo 3, I got that, but you CAN'T keep suggesting that there is LESS teamwork in Halo 1 because it required LESS team firing. Team firing isn't the go-to source for defining teamwork in Halo games... There are many other aspects to be included, such as strategies to approach situations which weighs much more on teamwork than team firing will ever hold. Not to mention the fact that if your team was well-coordinated in Halo 1 and worked on taking out people together on more open maps like Hang 'Em High or Rat Race, then that also shows team firing in Halo 1. You're way of explaining these types of things keeps falling back on team firing as the main source of defining teamwork when it really is not and you make it seem as though Halo 1 had little to none of that, which again is not the case if you've played it competitively like I assumed you have.
Agreed. I mentioned that at the top.

Posted by: UNKNOWN iXi
Before we continue this I would just like to know something. You're against health packs, ok I get that. However, I think I recall you saying you want a health bar, correct? If so, would you want it to be regenerating over time? If so again, would you want it to be fast or slow?
I was assuming the healthbar would regenerate at the rate it currently does. The healthbar would be good to show us how much we had. A slow regen would be nice, as it would punish you for going into combat incorrectly or for being tactically assaulted, but it could promote camping until it was full. HOWEVER, if your health takes 30 seconds to recharge after shields are up, it means that you were probably being chased and people knew where you were headed, so you wouldn't really have a camping advantage. It would help the kill to be finished.

On the other hand, fast regens would encourage superb teamwork and teamfiring. You'd have to hit together and/or hit hard to get the kills. It would promote movement across the map and would speed up the gameplay.

Either way you look at it, there will be pros and cons. Slow regen slow down the game (like health would - as you essentially have slow regen or no regen until healthpack). However, this doesn't let you get away free of harm for hiding for 10 seconds, and may make you think twice about your strategy. On the other hand, fast regen would bring a faster speed to a relatively slow shooter, and would encourage extreme teamwork (maybe too much, if you want a 50/50 individual/team focus). It really depends on what type of game you want it to be and what skills you want highlighted. However, I do think automatic regen is better than health because you don't have to run around like crazy and to find a sparse commodity.

THOUGHT: What about having a slow automatic regeneration (let's say you have 30 health points, regenerate 10 per 30 seconds, or whatever you decide), but also have healthpacks for instafixes? I haven't thought much about it, so let me know your thoughts.

  • 11.18.2009 10:53 AM PDT

.:. îXî - $ìgñ øf thé GøÐz .:.


My Profile - iXi Gaming


Î ũňķñ{ǾẄŃ} ū

Well you have your opinion on certain things and I have mine. I still disagree with health packs slowing down gameplay and I even more so disagree with having a fast regeneration of health.

I strongly believe if you're health respawns fast, everyone who just got shot like a few times would just scurry into cover for the few secs it takes to regenerate, then come out blazing with a fresh new health pack. I know I would... To me, that doesn't make faster gameplay nor does it make it balanced OR fair. Now let's say the person's health WOULDN'T recover BUT Bungie has cleverly placed health packs in the most common places that people would run for cover. Not too many health packs, but also not too few depending on the map layouts.


I believe this would make for much better gameplay because instead of just running around a corner or running around a pole in circles as your health comes back, if you DO manage to get away from someone who got the drop on you, then you will have to think of ways to outsmart/outplay your opponent after they've already outplayed you in the first place.


Say I'm shooting you before you began shooting me and you know you're going to lose the fight. So then you decided "Uh oh let me back off and find a nice spot for cover as my health comes back!" So then you run away and I go to chase you, but we're dancing around this place on the map because I just can't finish the kill and you just can't get away. These scenarios happen very frequently in Halo these days and it's all about a game of cat and mouse.

Now let's give the same scenario where you knew you were going to lose the fight against me so you choose to back off and there are health packs placed in certain locations around the map. You decided "Oh damn I need a health pack or else my health won't come back up!" and since I know where the health packs in the vicinity are I decide that I would take a gamble to try and trick you by meeting you there. However, you somehow use mindgames and trick me by going somewhere else instead of us just running in circles as I keep narrowly trying to finish the kill. I believe this would decrease those cat and mouse chases because it would decrease the length of time you'd have to survive if you don't actually try to fight back, giving me my kill that I went way out of my way for by constantly shooting you everywhere.


I've been in and witnessed far too many situations where games would just drag on because of people scurrying away around corners because they keep on getting outplayed. You may have a different opinion on this, but I really believe that it would make for better gameplay because if you are CONSTANTLY getting the better position and outplaying someone, then why should they have the ability to just run away like a little coward every second they're getting shot at BEFORE they shoot first just to get that ONE kill? To me that's just boring, repetitive and UNSKILLFUL gameplay.



Now I can see a very slow regeneration of your health work if implemented into the game's overall mechanics correctly, so I won't argue much against that, but my position is strongly against a fast regeneration of health WITHOUT the need for a health pack.



*Food for Thought*
-I wonder how it could possibly be if we ARE given a health bar, but our health does not regenerate at all over time and we are also NOT given health packs. That would be pretty funny to mess around with lol...

  • 11.18.2009 11:22 AM PDT

Bam...Head Shot!!

Yes i do believe there should be health packs, but only in campaign, it would be ridiculous to have them in multi-player.

It would also make sense to go back to the health pack style of play since we are using the old amour again, which has less shielding.(assuming they do this, since it is a prequel)

  • 11.18.2009 11:56 AM PDT
  • gamertag: L0RCH
  • user homepage:

Why do you guys make topics about things that are in the game anyway?
The leaked pics confirmed the br, they confirmed health packs.
Why do you guys talk about wether you want it or not?
It will be in the game anyway...

  • 11.18.2009 11:58 AM PDT

°º¤ø„¸¸„ø¤º° ;¨¸„ø¤º°¨ I Bounce FX I
¨°º¤ø„¸Disturbed „ø¤º°¨
¸„ø¤º°¨ ROCKS!!!! ``°º¤ø„¸
¸„ø¤º°¨¸„ø¤º ;°¨¨°º¤ø„¸¨° ;º¤ø

ok there is a reason why most fps games switch to rechargable shield other then health pack it makes for a more fluint game experience (and yes cod does have rechargable shields im sick of people saying that it doesnt)i will admit that it worked in halo1 but i can see it now if health packs are in the game the people who want then in the game will just complain about it later. its the same with the sword people wanted it less effective so the added clashing and a lower rang of lunge people only complain about it now and say they like the h2 better.

i say leave it as is because it works. dont fix somthing that dosnt need fixing

  • 11.18.2009 12:16 PM PDT

°º¤ø„¸¸„ø¤º° ;¨¸„ø¤º°¨ I Bounce FX I
¨°º¤ø„¸Disturbed „ø¤º°¨
¸„ø¤º°¨ ROCKS!!!! ``°º¤ø„¸
¸„ø¤º°¨¸„ø¤º ;°¨¨°º¤ø„¸¨° ;º¤ø

Posted by: Rakata
Why do you guys make topics about things that are in the game anyway?
The leaked pics confirmed the br, they confirmed health packs.
Why do you guys talk about wether you want it or not?
It will be in the game anyway...


because those pics could easily be fake im pretty sure bungie wouldnt let some one with a camera in the studio

also still at this point it would not be garunteed thats what the beta is for so they can see what works and what dosnt if people dont like it in the beta they will change it befor the release

[Edited on 11.18.2009 12:19 PM PST]

  • 11.18.2009 12:18 PM PDT
  • gamertag: BJRSCJ
  • user homepage:

Posted by: UNKNOWN iXi
I strongly believe if you're health respawns fast, everyone who just got shot like a few times would just scurry into cover for the few secs it takes to regenerate, then come out blazing with a fresh new health pack. I know I would...

Posted by: UNKNOWN iXi
To me, that doesn't make faster gameplay nor does it make it balanced OR fair.
Sure it does, as I will attempt to show below.
Posted by: UNKNOWN iXi
Now let's say the person's health WOULDN'T recover BUT Bungie has cleverly placed health packs in the most common places that people would run for cover.
So instead of everyone being on the same system where your shields recharge automatically, only the people who are lucky enough to get to this piece of cover when there is a healthpack spawned there will get their shields regened? I really think that just boils down to luck. Unless you have a healthpack on a timed respawn at one or two central locations on the map, it's random. But if you do that, it becomes campy.

Posted by: UNKNOWN iXi
Not too many health packs, but also not too few depending on the map layouts. I believe this would make for much better gameplay because instead of just running around a corner or running around a pole in circles as your health comes back, if you DO manage to get away from someone who got the drop on you, then you will have to think of ways to outsmart/outplay your opponent after they've already outplayed you in the first place.
As it stands now, the burden of the kill is placed on the offender. The offense is assumed to have the advantage because they have put the plan into action on their terms. Therefore, if a person has time to get around cover and recharge, that's the offender's fault completely for inadequate execution, or a poor plan. That's why I love Halo. Every other game is all about who sees who first. Halo is as well, but there's a huge component present - largely due to shields - that provides for a good freturn fight. The margin for error is smaller in Halo because the defender has a chance. It's like the difference between basketball and hockey. In basketball it's all about offensive consistency and hitting a shot every time you go down court. In hockey it's about defensive consistency and scoring when the opportunities break. Since I hate basketball, I hate health. I don't want a back and forth of gimmes, I want a good, hard fight where you have to have perfect execution and teamwork, taking advantage of opportunites as they arise.

Posted by: UNKNOWN iXi
Say I'm shooting you before you began shooting me and you know you're going to lose the fight. So then you decided "Uh oh let me back off and find a nice spot for cover as my health comes back!" So then you run away and I go to chase you, but we're dancing around this place on the map because I just can't finish the kill and you just can't get away. These scenarios happen very frequently in Halo these days and it's all about a game of cat and mouse.
Like I said, it's about planning. I'm not perfect, but I can tell I have more experience than a lot of players, because I have timing. I see people chase the wounded, shoot their BR and give away their location when they aren't in good position to finish the kill, etc, all the time. I've passed up many shots until I could get in range and position to make sure the kill was quick and clean. Hitting someone and knowing they'll be an easy cleanup kill later isn't my idea of strong tactics.

Posted by: UNKNOWN iXi
Now let's give the same scenario where you knew you were going to lose the fight against me so you choose to back off and there are health packs placed in certain locations around the map. You decided "Oh damn I need a health pack or else my health won't come back up!" and since I know where the health packs in the vicinity are I decide that I would take a gamble to try and trick you by meeting you there. However, you somehow use mindgames and trick me by going somewhere else instead of us just running in circles as I keep narrowly trying to finish the kill. I believe this would decrease those cat and mouse chases because it would decrease the length of time you'd have to survive if you don't actually try to fight back, giving me my kill that I went way out of my way for by constantly shooting you everywhere.
Again, the burden is on the offender who already has the advantage of striking on their terms. Health requires less coordination because you can just finish them later if you don't get the kill.

Posted by: UNKNOWN iXi
I've been in and witnessed far too many situations where games would just drag on because of people scurrying away around corners because they keep on getting outplayed. You may have a different opinion on this, but I really believe that it would make for better gameplay because if you are CONSTANTLY getting the better position and outplaying someone, then why should they have the ability to just run away like a little coward every second they're getting shot at BEFORE they shoot first just to get that ONE kill? To me that's just boring, repetitive and UNSKILLFUL gameplay.
I do see your point on how having no health actually lengthens gameplay as opposed to quickening it. However, while the overall games may last longer at times (except for objectives, which take way longer with health), that doesn't mean their pace is slow. Due to fast regens, people can quickly recover and move across the field much more easily, from cover to cover. It gives you more confidence to attack, knowing that if those attacking you aren't good in their execution, you'll be fine.

Posted by: UNKNOWN iXi
Now I can see a very slow regeneration of your health work if implemented into the game's overall mechanics correctly, so I won't argue much against that, but my position is strongly against a fast regeneration of health WITHOUT the need for a health pack.
Again, I feel like health randomizes the game by giving a "look what I found" aspect. So you magically get healed for stepping on a healthpack? Also, I stand by what I said on it stifling aggression due to losing weapons up close, and the ease of new players spawning and killing you if you're in their turf. And like I said, it would fit great into Halo if it was like a powerup/weapon with controllable respawns, but then you run into camping something, which is lame. But if you don't do that, you make it into a random variable.

What did you think about slow regeneration along with healthpacks?


Posted by: UNKNOWN iXi
*Food for Thought*
-I wonder how it could possibly be if we ARE given a health bar, but our health does not regenerate at all over time and we are also NOT given health packs. That would be pretty funny to mess around with lol...
Great option for forge.

  • 11.18.2009 12:48 PM PDT

  • Pages:
  • 1
  • 2
  • of 2