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Posted by: UNKNOWN iXi
...if people fall back because they have low health and base camp and they LOSE the important weapons because of it, then they deserve it. My point was that health may encourage base camping for a winning team, once their health is low out mid. My fear isn't that they'll lose their weapons in this scenario, it's that the new playstyle will be to fall back to base with the power weapons (if health is located on each team's half as opposed to in the middle).
Posted by: UNKNOWN iXi
I said it all depends on map layout, such as fitting them in properly with weapons and the such. Clearly it would be a bad choice to put a health pack in the middle of Standoff right next to the Laser lol... Actually, putting health in the middle wouldn't be so bad, since it's a death trap to go there. I'd say put it out on the wings in the middle of the bubble shield launch silos. Nobody goes out there, it's neutral, and it would actually open up the middle more instead of clogging it.
Posted by: UNKNOWN iXi
Ok again you're only looking at the extremes lol. So, what? The health packs can only be far back in bases or wide open in the middle of the maps? Yes. What are the other options? If you have two on a map, you probably either have them in the middle on opposite sides (maybe one in the exact middle) or... on a team's side. There is no "nobody's side." It's either closer to red, closer to blue, or in the middle. That means if it's middle, and you're the team controlling middle, you have a huge advantage and can clean house. If it's back on either side, that means you have to fall back and slow down gameplay when you want health.
Posted by: UNKNOWN iXi
No... Why can't a health pack be by the Plasma Grenades of each Camo? Why can't a health pack be ANYWHERE between either the base and the middle of the map? It's all about balance which again seems like Bungie wouldn't be able to do. Plasma spawn would be horrible because it's essentially just like spawning at your base. If we're using Standoff, I'd use the launchpads mentioned above, but I'd consider that middle.
Now, I can see your point on larger maps. If you're controlling Valhalla, putting health at caves on either side (water side is more passages as opposed to caves), that would make you vulnerable enough out of base, but far enough away from middle that I'd consider that workable. Big maps would work. But when it comes to small maps, healthpack gameplay would become very random, IMO. Teams die and switch spawns all the time and I can just see someone running around Guardian randomly picking up a newly spawned healthpack by luck and winning a duel. Luck happens so as it is, but this would be bad on small maps. With the switching sides spawning all the time, I could easily foresee one team just constantly unluckily missing the health spawns and getting beat not because of tactics, but luck. Luck happens, but I'd rather control it as much as possible.
Posted by: UNKNOWN iXi
I guess this is where we disagree. I strongly believe that Halo should not be as slow and especially get any slower than it already is. I agree as well, I would just rather see that gameplay come by putting that potential to kill into weapons with large skill gaps as opposed to spawning magic boxes.
Posted by: UNKNOWN iXi
I think they need to increase the speed up the overall gameplay than what we see in Halo 3 because right now it just feels way too sluggish sometimes, especially if you think fast and work fast with your fingers... going against skill based gameplay over casual gameplay (which might I add you said you'd rather have skill over casual). Agreed. But if you play MLG or higher level slayer, you can't tell me those games aren't pretty fast paced for the most part.
Posted by: UNKNOWN iXi
Sluggish and slow gameplay = Casual
Faster than Halo 3 and fluid gameplay = Much more skill based. I don't necessarily agree. I remember playing GOW when it first came out and some of those games were long. It was all about coordinating movement and finding positioning. Yes, whoever out-thought the other person faster won, but relative to other games, it was slow.
Posted by: UNKNOWN iXi
I disagree. We've spoken before about balance issues and you've agree with me on what you just said about the Warthog being balanced or the Banshee, etc. From my personal experience, it almost always seems as though when I get the drop on someone on maps like Standoff, they just hide behind a rock for a few seconds and maintain map control with full health. I don't know... Maybe we've just been experiencing different things I guess. I think a lot of this is more map specific, and some of it happens more in large vs. small maps. I definitely think the laser and the banshee are unbalanced, among several other things in the game.
Standoff is definitely a map where you may not finish kills...if you just try to shoot down the middle. I use camo or mongooses to my advantage quite frequently, flanking the enemy. I also use the BS conveniently positioned around the outside. When you get to the side of their rocks or behind their base, you either push them out of cover, finish off kills, or distract them for your team to clean up. If you're just standing there shooting 1v1 and not working with positions, you'll get unfinished kills all day long. I think that's what I like. Instead of just playing pop out, pop in, pop out, pop in - this gameplay forces you to do something if you want to get it done. You can't just wear them away, you have to out think them.
Posted by: UNKNOWN iXi
That being said, maybe it's just because Halo 3 overall has poor map layout and game mechanics which sway our views one way or the other. I don't know about you, but I find Halo 3 way too sluggish a lot of the time.Agreed
Posted by: UNKNOWN iXi
I disagree again. The way it works now, as I've stated many many times before, is that even if you can get the upperhand on someone they can still find a SIMPLE way to turn that situation around, be it because of the random BR spread or just hiding behind a tiny piece of cover for a few seconds. It has nothing to do with skill... lol I agree that there are random factors in there that help to change this situation - which should be eliminated - but I can't tell you how many times I've gotten kills while shieldless. Go to my fileshare and look up numbers 1, 4, 17, and especially 19, as just a few of the many examples of how enemies missed their opportunities and my skill allowed me to come back. I'm sorry, but if you get the jump on someone, most of the time you should beat them unless they find cover. But shields keep you in the game against lesser skilled opponents. Just because a few random factors exist that shouldn't does not mean you can make a blanket statement about this.
Cover can be blown with grenades or teammates quite easily, not to mention preparation and ensuring you time your shots right so your victim can't escape.
Posted by: UNKNOWN iXi
I guess I'm just having good faith in Bungie to step up their game a little bit because they can't possibly get more casual than what Halo already is without losing many consistent players. So worst case scenario, EVERYTHING will be exactly the same which isn't tooooooooo bad, but in my opinion Halo can only get better from this point.
I agree, as they've had a long time to work on Reach. I also agree about the pace, but just differ in my opinion on how to do that (although I think you agree with me on that too, you just go one step farther with health).
Final statements here, I again want to say that I think health could be very interesting if done properly. I think smaller maps may not do so well with it, and I think the placement would have to be very good. I honestly don't think health would add or detract all that much from the game. My hope would be that it adds good pace and tactics, but my fear would be that it actually detracts from both of those things.
[FOOD FOR THOUGHT: Other ideas] I don't know if you'll like any of these, and frankly I haven't thought through them, but rather skimmed them off the top of my mind.
1. Instead of having health placed around the maps (particularly on small maps which already have crowded items and weapons, not to mention would probably have the problems I mentioned earlier in the post, randomizing things), what if you had a portable health pack. This healthpack would be filled up after you deal X amount of damage to the enemy, and then used like equipment is now.
2. Have very slow regenerating health, but still have healthpacks. (I think you already responded to this one)
3. Have healthpacks at middle locations (like caves of valhalla or launch pads of Standoff) on medium/larger maps, with 90 second respawn times. That makes them controllable and not too random, plus it locates the healthpacks away from the key holding places, not highly easy to be dominated by either those holding middle or the defenders. I just can't see how they could place these on smaller maps = perhaps Guardian Forest and launch.
4. Have everyone start with a healthpack they can use at any time. This way you choose when to use yours, and if you use it, you're out. Also have one healthpack, centrally located, spawning every 60 seconds, like equipment.
I'd go with number 3, as it's the most normal and halolike, and some of the others may just be weird. Just trying to throw some ideas out there and facilitate some other thoughts.
[Edited on 11.18.2009 5:02 PM PST]