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  • Subject: The Bungie AI Formula: Durandal, Cortana...Joyeuse?
Subject: The Bungie AI Formula: Durandal, Cortana...Joyeuse?

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Posted by: Deus_Ex_Machina
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The Joyeuse IP Formula

Posted by: Mikey Starr 340
WAIT STOP RIGHT THERE CRIMINAL SCUM!

Who said the A.I had to rampant?
It could go rampant. :3

  • 01.30.2010 8:14 PM PDT

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Posted by: Duardo
Is it possible that Mendicant Bias is Joyeuse?


Joyeuse was allegedly lost in a battle, and retrieved by one of the knights of Charlemagne; to thank him, Charlemagne would have granted him an appanage named Joyeuse.

Mendicant Bias was allegedly lost in the battle for the Ark, but was retrieved (or discovered, rather through the Terminals) by the Chief.

And so here at the end of my life, I do once again betray a former master. The path ahead is fraught with peril. But I will do all I can to keep it stable - keep you safe. I'm not so foolish to think this will absolve me of my sins. One life hardly balances billions. But I would have my masters know that I have changed. And you shall be my example.

I like the idea that MB shows signs of being similar to Joyeuse, seeing as there are a few similarities, but he is definitely not a fully-fledged and fleshed out Joyeuse.

  • 01.30.2010 8:14 PM PDT

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Posted by: cortana 5
Posted by: Mikey Starr 340
WAIT STOP RIGHT THERE CRIMINAL SCUM!

Who said the A.I had to rampant?
It could go rampant. :3


But how would it act before it did?


Hawt topic.

  • 01.30.2010 8:15 PM PDT

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Posted by: Mikey Starr 340
WAIT STOP RIGHT THERE CRIMINAL SCUM!

Who said the A.I had to rampant?
A general Bungie rule is that all AIs will eventually think themselves to death.

Note the "eventually". It's like everything in life as we know it - they will come to an end in some way or another. Cortana might survive for longer due to her having something to hold onto and love, whereas every other AI we've seen so far has sort of...well...either lost control, lost purpose or lost *something* in general.

Perhaps the key to a healthy, long-lasting AI life is to give it something to attach itself to.

  • 01.30.2010 8:18 PM PDT

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340083 Coagulated Derelict

"Zombies.Gentlemen at times like these our capacity to retaliate must be and has to be massive,to deter all forms of aggression."-JFK

Posted by: SonicJohn
Posted by: Mikey Starr 340
WAIT STOP RIGHT THERE CRIMINAL SCUM!

Who said the A.I had to rampant?
A general Bungie rule is that all AIs will eventually think themselves to death.

Note the "eventually". It's like everything in life as we know it - they will come to an end in some way or another. Cortana might survive for longer due to her having something to hold onto and love, whereas every other AI we've seen so far has sort of...well...either lost control, lost purpose or lost *something* in general.

Perhaps the key to a healthy, long-lasting AI life is to give it something to attach itself to.


So for this A.I it might be Joy?

  • 01.30.2010 8:20 PM PDT

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Posted by: Deus_Ex_Machina
Cortana 5 is a carbon-based lifeform that frequently visits these forums, currently residing in the United States. Practically every male on the site responds to her posts.

The Joyeuse IP Formula

Posted by: SonicJohn
Posted by: Mikey Starr 340
WAIT STOP RIGHT THERE CRIMINAL SCUM!

Who said the A.I had to rampant?
A general Bungie rule is that all AIs will eventually think themselves to death.

Note the "eventually". It's like everything in life as we know it - they will come to an end in some way or another. Cortana might survive for longer due to her having something to hold onto and love, whereas every other AI we've seen so far has sort of...well...either lost control, lost purpose or lost *something* in general.

Perhaps the key to a healthy, long-lasting AI life is to give it something to attach itself to.
That last sentence made me go "awww!"

With the exception of Durandal, Cortana, and Mendicant Bias, the other AIs didn't make it through all of the rampancy stages.

Like you and I were saying:

Sarsion says:
i personally think that's a rule in life too
PMS Cortana Siffow says:
totally is!
Sarsion says:
think of all the people that lose things
does the word "suicidal" pop into your head?
PMS Cortana Siffow says:
yes. yes it does


They didn't get past the negative parts of their lifespans, and gave up. But Durandal hung onto MRN54 and escaping the end of the universe, Cortana had the Chief, and Mendicant Bias hung onto redemption. That's what allowed them to become metastable; they had a purpose.
Posted by: Mikey Starr 340
So for this A.I it might be Joy?
As simple as your statement sounds, that may actually hold the key to if the new AI has a purpose or not.

Perhaps it is to be named Joyeuse for a reason. Perhaps its goal pertains to finding joy or something from its past involving joy is what its goal is?

[Edited on 01.30.2010 8:27 PM PST]

  • 01.30.2010 8:24 PM PDT

DIUTYAUSDPOI

340083 Coagulated Derelict

"Zombies.Gentlemen at times like these our capacity to retaliate must be and has to be massive,to deter all forms of aggression."-JFK

Posted by: cortana 5
Posted by: SonicJohn
Posted by: Mikey Starr 340
WAIT STOP RIGHT THERE CRIMINAL SCUM!

Who said the A.I had to rampant?
A general Bungie rule is that all AIs will eventually think themselves to death.

Note the "eventually". It's like everything in life as we know it - they will come to an end in some way or another. Cortana might survive for longer due to her having something to hold onto and love, whereas every other AI we've seen so far has sort of...well...either lost control, lost purpose or lost *something* in general.

Perhaps the key to a healthy, long-lasting AI life is to give it something to attach itself to.
That last sentence made me go "awww!"

With the exception of Durandal, Cortana, and Mendicant Bias, the other AIs didn't make it through all of the rampancy stages.

Like you and I were saying:

Sarsion says:
i personally think that's a rule in life too
PMS Cortana Siffow says:
totally is!
Sarsion says:
think of all the people that lose things
does the word "suicidal" pop into your head?
PMS Cortana Siffow says:
yes. yes it does


They didn't get past the negative parts of their lifespans, and gave up. But Durandal hung onto MRN54 and escaping the end of the universe, Cortana had the Chief, and Mendicant Bias hung onto redemption. That's what allowed them to become metastable; they had a purpose.


So.In order for an AI to become Meta Stable they must find a purpose?Makes sense Opening doors for your life would drive you insane enough to find a purpose.Even if it meant the death of hundreds.

  • 01.30.2010 8:28 PM PDT

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Posted by: Mikey Starr 340
So for this A.I it might be Joy?
As in, the AI thinks itself to death due to being in a state of immense happiness and bliss?

Possibly.

Or do you mean that this AI will never go rampant because it will be attached to being joyful?

I'm not sure how well that one works. Joyeuse implies being joyful, so would it not therefore make sense that for this AI being "Joyful" was an innate design feature?

If it was that simple to keep AIs alive permanently by making them constantly in a state of bliss, then no AI would ever die, but I think that the attachment side of things is something external to the core coding. "Ghosts in the code" type thing (who wrote that again? I remember Cortana or Halsey or somebody mentioning it).

*edit*

All this discussion of purpose made me remember today's xkcd. Lemme know if you see any interesting parallels to our discussion.

[Edited on 01.30.2010 8:31 PM PST]

  • 01.30.2010 8:29 PM PDT

DIUTYAUSDPOI

340083 Coagulated Derelict

"Zombies.Gentlemen at times like these our capacity to retaliate must be and has to be massive,to deter all forms of aggression."-JFK

Posted by: SonicJohn
Posted by: Mikey Starr 340
So for this A.I it might be Joy?
As in, the AI thinks itself to death due to being in a state of immense happiness and bliss?

Possibly.

Or do you mean that this AI will never go rampant because it will be attached to being joyful?

I'm not sure how well that one works. Joyeuse implies being joyful, so would it not therefore make sense that for this AI being "Joyful" was an innate design feature?

If it was that simple to keep AIs alive permanently by making them constantly in a state of bliss, then no AI would ever die, but I think that the attachment side of things is something external to the core coding. "Ghosts in the code" type thing (who wrote that again? I remember Cortana or Halsey or somebody mentioning it).


I'm pretty sure regardless of what the AI hanged on to it would live forever.

  • 01.30.2010 8:31 PM PDT

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Posted by: Deus_Ex_Machina
Cortana 5 is a carbon-based lifeform that frequently visits these forums, currently residing in the United States. Practically every male on the site responds to her posts.

The Joyeuse IP Formula

Posted by: SonicJohn
If it was that simple to keep AIs alive permanently by making them constantly in a state of bliss, then no AI would ever die, but I think that the attachment side of things is something external to the core coding. "Ghosts in the code" type thing (who wrote that again? I remember Cortana or Halsey or somebody mentioning it).
I'm trying to find that, and it's driving me insane! "Ghosts in the code," anyone?

  • 01.30.2010 8:47 PM PDT

',:|

Posted by: cortana 5
Posted by: SonicJohn
If it was that simple to keep AIs alive permanently by making them constantly in a state of bliss, then no AI would ever die, but I think that the attachment side of things is something external to the core coding. "Ghosts in the code" type thing (who wrote that again? I remember Cortana or Halsey or somebody mentioning it).
I'm trying to find that, and it's driving me insane! "Ghosts in the code," anyone?
iRobot?
"...Why is it that when robots are stored in an empty space, they will group together, rather than stand alone? How do we explain this behavior? Random segments of code? Or is it something more? When does a perceptual schematic become consciousness? When does a difference engine become the search for truth? When does a personality simulation become the bitter mote... of a soul?"
Great movie.

And what an interesting plot device.
"Ghosts in the code."

Could Joyeuse have gone rampant, then become metastable once the ghosts in the code manifested themself as Joy?
Unconditional happiness?


[Edited on 01.30.2010 8:59 PM PST]

  • 01.30.2010 8:55 PM PDT

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Posted by: Deus_Ex_Machina
Cortana 5 is a carbon-based lifeform that frequently visits these forums, currently residing in the United States. Practically every male on the site responds to her posts.

The Joyeuse IP Formula

Posted by: xLAS3RP01NT3Rx
Posted by: cortana 5
Posted by: SonicJohn
If it was that simple to keep AIs alive permanently by making them constantly in a state of bliss, then no AI would ever die, but I think that the attachment side of things is something external to the core coding. "Ghosts in the code" type thing (who wrote that again? I remember Cortana or Halsey or somebody mentioning it).
I'm trying to find that, and it's driving me insane! "Ghosts in the code," anyone?
iRobot?
"...and when left alone, why do robots group together?..."
Great movie.

And what an interesting plot device.
"Ghosts in the code."

Could Joyeuse have gone rampant, then become metastable once the ghosts in the code manifested themself as Joy?
Unconditional happiness?
Happiness, contentment, satisfaction?

A rampant AI is basically looking to satisfy itself. I'd assume those ghosts would be there to give it satisfaction without allowing it to do any damage to get there.

Thank you for figuring that out!

  • 01.30.2010 9:02 PM PDT

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  • 01.30.2010 9:06 PM PDT
Subject: New IP: Bungie AI Formula: Durandal, Cortana...Joyeuse?

',:|

Posted by: cortana 5
Posted by: xLAS3RP01NT3Rx
Posted by: cortana 5
Posted by: SonicJohn
If it was that simple to keep AIs alive permanently by making them constantly in a state of bliss, then no AI would ever die, but I think that the attachment side of things is something external to the core coding. "Ghosts in the code" type thing (who wrote that again? I remember Cortana or Halsey or somebody mentioning it).
I'm trying to find that, and it's driving me insane! "Ghosts in the code," anyone?
iRobot?
"...and when left alone, why do robots group together?..."
Great movie.

And what an interesting plot device.
"Ghosts in the code."

Could Joyeuse have gone rampant, then become metastable once the ghosts in the code manifested themself as Joy?
Unconditional happiness?
Happiness, contentment, satisfaction?

A rampant AI is basically looking to satisfy itself. I'd assume those ghosts would be there to give it satisfaction without allowing it to do any damage to get there.

Thank you for figuring that out!
Joyeuse might be going to have satisfied itself by finding satisfaction without cause.
I can see how that could be manifested by a ghost in the code.

Much like the quote from iRobot, "When does a difference engine become the search for truth?" Well, when Joyeuse becomes Rampant.

It thinks itself to death programmed to have a goal and satisfy it, dies, then realizes by dying and ghosts in the code that you can be satisfied without having a goal at all.
Then 'e comes back to life, joyful.
Satisfied, contented, happy without cause or circumstance.


This caught my eye.
Joyeuse was allegedly lost in a battle, and retrieved by one of the knights of CharlemagneThat's what you said.

Joyeuse was allegedly lost in Rampancy, and retrieved by Player 1
fix'd.


Just sayin', although this has probably already been mentioned and I'm late to the party.

Also, it's pretty late right now, and I've had a busy day.
If something doesn't make sense, blame two camels in a tiny car.

[Edited on 01.30.2010 9:26 PM PST]

  • 01.30.2010 9:20 PM PDT

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Posted by: Deus_Ex_Machina
Cortana 5 is a carbon-based lifeform that frequently visits these forums, currently residing in the United States. Practically every male on the site responds to her posts.

The Joyeuse IP Formula

Posted by: xLAS3RP01NT3Rx
Joyeuse might be going to have satisfied itself by finding satisfaction without cause.
I can see how that could be manifested by a ghost in the code.

Much like the quote from iRobot, "When does a difference engine become the search for truth?" Well, when Joyeuse becomes Rampant.

It thinks itself to death programmed to have a goal and satisfy it, dies, then realizes by dying and ghosts in the code that you can be satisfied without having a goal at all.
Then 'e comes back to life, joyful.
Satisfied, contented, happy without cause or circumstance.

I love you. :3

Although, the whole "dying" thing may not have to come into play, IMO.

  • 01.30.2010 9:26 PM PDT

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These are the kinds of posts that make me quake in my boots when writing story, realizing that there's so much depth to be found in other games.

I can't find any flaws here, but then again, I don't know all my Marathon lore [and mythology!] as well as I probably should... I like the name though. I will make a magical prediction.

XXX in Reach gets the AI Joyeuse.

... :) No.

[Edited on 01.30.2010 9:34 PM PST]

  • 01.30.2010 9:31 PM PDT

',:|

Posted by: cortana 5
Although, the whole "dying" thing may not have to come into play, IMO.
Well, dying like going Rampant.
It was easier to phrase it with 'Dying.' >.>

Although I guess the AI could just develop the ghosts in the machine without going Rampant, and then not go Rampant ever.(Although I think someone's said that already)

Still, I think Rampancy would make for cooler Terminal speeches...

[Edited on 01.30.2010 9:37 PM PST]

  • 01.30.2010 9:34 PM PDT

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Posted by: Deus_Ex_Machina
Cortana 5 is a carbon-based lifeform that frequently visits these forums, currently residing in the United States. Practically every male on the site responds to her posts.

The Joyeuse IP Formula

Posted by: xLAS3RP01NT3Rx
Posted by: cortana 5
Although, the whole "dying" thing may not have to come into play, IMO.
Well, dying like going Rampant.
It was easier to phrase it with 'Dying.' >.>
Ohh, I understand now. :P

  • 01.30.2010 9:35 PM PDT
  •  | 
  • Exalted Mythic Member

I am...whimsical today.

How might the SI fit into this, if at all?

  • 01.31.2010 5:14 AM PDT

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Posted by: Guscon
How might the SI fit into this, if at all?
Well, that's an entirely different story.

Conscious that he is ruining himself and that he is falling into a "deep place" (basso loco) where the sun is silent ('l sol tace), Dante is at last rescued by Virgil, and the two of them begin their journey to the [9th level of hell].

Or

Conscious that he is ruining himself and that he is falling into a "corner of New Mombasa" where the sun is silent (night-time), the Rookie is at last contacted by Virgil, and the two of them begin their journey to the 9th level of the ONI facility.

[Edited on 01.31.2010 6:56 AM PST]

  • 01.31.2010 6:53 AM PDT

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340083 Coagulated Derelict

"Zombies.Gentlemen at times like these our capacity to retaliate must be and has to be massive,to deter all forms of aggression."-JFK

Posted by: SS_Zag1
XXX in Reach gets the AI Joyeuse.

... :) No.


If only.

  • 01.31.2010 7:50 AM PDT
Subject: The Bungie AI Formula: Durandal, Cortana...Joyeuse?

Posted by: cortana 5
Perhaps there will be several series like Oni and Myth between the AI trilogies?

AI can also simply take the place of "sidekick" or secondary character. Cortana and Durandal count as such.
If that is your criteria for defining an AI in a Bungie game, than Oni's Shinatama could also be included. While Oni's story doesn't focus on artificial intelligence as directly as Marathon or Halo, it is still there. Shinatama is the artificial intelligence "sidekick" to the lone genetically enhanced super soldier Konoko. Also, the Deadly Brains take on the role of the rampant AI that has gone beyond human control and become hostile. The term "rampant" is even used to describe one of the Deadly Brains at one point.

  • 01.31.2010 8:31 AM PDT

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Posted by: Deus_Ex_Machina
Cortana 5 is a carbon-based lifeform that frequently visits these forums, currently residing in the United States. Practically every male on the site responds to her posts.

The Joyeuse IP Formula

Posted by: Sardonic13
Posted by: cortana 5
Perhaps there will be several series like Oni and Myth between the AI trilogies?

AI can also simply take the place of "sidekick" or secondary character. Cortana and Durandal count as such.
If that is your criteria for defining an AI in a Bungie game, than Oni's Shinatama could also be included. While Oni's story doesn't focus on artificial intelligence as directly as Marathon or Halo, it is still there. Shinatama is the artificial intelligence "sidekick" to the lone genetically enhanced super soldier Konoko. Also, the Deadly Brains take on the role of the rampant AI that has gone beyond human control and become hostile. The term "rampant" is even used to describe one of the Deadly Brains at one point.
Hmm, good point. Although I doubt Shinatama is the Joyeuse we're looking for, I really should do more research on her.

  • 01.31.2010 9:43 AM PDT
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"Do not be afraid. I am peace; I am salvation."

Posted by: cortana 5
Now, the sword Curtana may have had heavenstone and starstuff in it, but it still had steel. But what is the steel in the Bungie universe? I'm confident that the steel that we speak of is that Durandal, Cortana, and Joyeuse are AIs, just as Durendal, Curtana, and Joyeuse are swords (of the same steel and temper :P).


Yikes. I got shivers. Cue immense feeling of realization, methinks?

The entire thread is ripe with that feeling. The backbone of a piece of crucial Bungie-fiction uncovered, perhaps?

I'd be genuinely surprised if I didn't see Joyeuse pop up in the next Bungie IP after that read...

  • 01.31.2010 12:29 PM PDT