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Subject: Blacklisting and perma-banning.

Posted by: dmbfan09
Well, how much hope do you have that people that break the rules enough to be blacklisted multiple times will actually learn something? I understand why perma-bans are currently used for extreme purposes, but don't you think that a perma-ban looming over somebody will make them follow the rules?

They could break three completely different rules because they haven't read the rules. Admittedly that's a bad thing, but the temp ban would mean that they'd learn about a rule.

  • 07.26.2005 3:29 PM PDT
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Posted by: goweb
Posted by: dmbfan09
Well, how much hope do you have that people that break the rules enough to be blacklisted multiple times will actually learn something? I understand why perma-bans are currently used for extreme purposes, but don't you think that a perma-ban looming over somebody will make them follow the rules?

They could break three completely different rules because they haven't read the rules. Admittedly that's a bad thing, but the temp ban would mean that they'd learn about a rule.


He has a point too, I mean, look how many people can't seem to read the words "THIS IS NOT A HALO BOARD" over in the underground.....

  • 07.26.2005 4:28 PM PDT
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Well I can see you lot are a lot more tolerant than me, on the websites I moderate I sit there for hours waiting for someone to misbehave then BAM. Yes I am completely evil and as such few spam in my forums. :D

Yes the 3 strikes your out is a good policy. BTW I try to tell some of my misbehaving friends to stop spaming and being annoying but I don’t think they will.

[Edited on 7/26/2005]

  • 07.26.2005 8:21 PM PDT

Save a cow, Eat a baby!
Posted by: ChiChi
Gimpy, don't be an idiot. Comparing the wiimote to the power glove is like comparing sex to dieing.

I'm scared...

  • 07.26.2005 8:47 PM PDT

Posted by: goweb
They could break three completely different rules because they haven't read the rules. Admittedly that's a bad thing, but the temp ban would mean that they'd learn about a rule.

So you would prefer to take the responsibility to spoon-feed members the rules one by one only after they have broken them rather than having the member take the responsibility to read all of the rules at once? I know you are just trying to be nice to the members, especially the younger ones that don't really know any better, but there should be a point where they should take responsibility for their own actions. Is there any way to make them read the rules after their blacklistings?

I truly believe that if given the ultimatum between getting perma-banned and just reading and following the rules, many members would prefer to follow the rules.

Posted by: LordCrotchpants
I'm scared...

Why is that LordCrotchpants?

  • 07.27.2005 4:52 AM PDT

With B.B. gone, the passion of Bungie.net has lessened.

I don't know... Personally, I think people should be permabanned and not blacklisted at all... I was blacklisted, and believe it or not, all it did was make me want to cause more trouble. I found it quite amuzing. But I'm no troublemaker on these forums, so I don't do that sort of thing.

I'm sure that there are other people that have been blacklisted that had more of a inkling to sturr up trouble when they got back.

Why not perma-ban right off the bat if someone disobeys the rules? As moderators have so kindly pointed out time and time again on various forums, we have no rights here. It is not our website.

And I doubt that Bungie will lose it's fanbase if a few troublesome users are banned for not following the rules. In my mind, doing that would not make Bungie any less of a company.

[Edited on 7/27/2005]

  • 07.27.2005 5:36 AM PDT

*reads Shai's post*

And there are those who thought my idea was harsh...

  • 07.27.2005 5:43 AM PDT

Add the email above to your MSN to contact me with emergencies on the forum.

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I agree with the idea on general principle, but because of the nature of the average user on Bungie.net, the plan needs to be reworked.

For instance, 3 strikes your out, seems a little harsh in the long term, because even the most grizzled veteran members of Bungie.net will forget themselves. Notice I didn't say "may forget themselves". They will, it's the luck of the draw whether or not a moderator happens to be there when they do, and if the moderator is feeling lenient, or feeling the need to make an example.

So you ramp up the punishment in a more minor way. I would suggest a scaled probationary period. Once that could reset every 90 or 120 days with good behavior.

Once you get blacklisted you have 7 days, then everything is back as normal. Oops, I screwed up.
2nd time, 7 day, plus 24 hours of no new topics (but still able to reply)
3rd time, 7 day, plus 7 days of no new topics (still able to reply)
4th time, 30 day, and everything is back as normal
5th time, a 30 day, plus 7 days with no new topics,
More serious repititions would result in a permaban. This also still allows for the scaled punishments as decided by Master Forum Ninjas.

[Edited on 7/27/2005]

  • 07.27.2005 6:15 AM PDT

Posted by: GameJunkieJim
I agree with the idea on general principle, but because of the nature of the average user on Bungie.net, the plan needs to be reworked.

For instance, 3 strikes your out, seems a little harsh in the long term, because even the most grizzled veteran members of Bungie.net will forget themselves. Notice I didn't say "may forget themselves". They will, it's the luck of the draw whether or not a moderator happens to be there when they do, and if the moderator is feeling lenient, or feeling the need to make an example.


My join date's earlier than any other non-employee I've seen post on these forums, and I've never "forgotten myself". Of course, I've never been able to work out who I am in the first place, but still...

I think the current system works well. If someone needs a longer ban than seven days, it's not difficult for us to email stosh or Shishka. It's not like they need to be checking their email every minute, because, hey, they have seven days before the blacklist lapses! You have to remember that 3 minor-but-just-blacklistable offences aren't the same as 3 spam fests, and should be dealt with accordingly. A single link to offensive photos or movies will lead to an instant perma-ban; a flame and "noob" will be a 7-dayer. 3 flames isn't the same as a pornographic movie.

While the idea has merit, it still requires ironing.

- Reiginko

  • 07.27.2005 6:43 AM PDT

Posted by: GameJunkieJim
For instance, 3 strikes your out, seems a little harsh in the long term, because even the most grizzled veteran members of Bungie.net will forget themselves. Notice I didn't say "may forget themselves". They will, it's the luck of the draw whether or not a moderator happens to be there when they do, and if the moderator is feeling lenient, or feeling the need to make an example.

Well, what I had stated would treat all members as equals, as I believe it should. It would probably be more of a deterrent for the veterans because the have already made a name for themselves. I am sure that any member that really wants to keep that prestige of being a long-term member will make sure they don't get even close to that perma-ban. I also think that somebody who joined 2 years ago should be treated no differently than somebody who joined 2 days ago when they break the rules.

Once you get blacklisted you have 7 days, then everything is back as normal. Oops, I screwed up.
2nd time, 7 day, plus 24 hours of no new topics (but still able to reply)
3rd time, 7 day, plus 7 days of no new topics (still able to reply)
4th time, 30 day, and everything is back as normal
5th time, a 30 day, plus 7 days with no new topics,
More serious repititions would result in a permaban. This also still allows for the scaled punishments as decided by Master Forum Ninjas.

This could also work pretty well, but I still think that an eventual perma-ban would be a better deterrent.

I think your reset idea would work very well in either system.

Edit: By the way, it doesn't have to be 3 blacklistings, that was just an example. It could be 5 for all I care, I'm not the one who would have to implement it.

[Edited on 7/27/2005]

  • 07.27.2005 6:45 AM PDT
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GameJunkieJim's logic works, but in the long run it begins to get complicated. If you need a gradually worsening system, it should be easy go understand.

I just figured that on the sign-up to B.net, the is not "I agree to the 'code of conduct' and 'terms of use'" Ticky box, although chances are, people would tick them without reading. Overall, a compilation of punishment schemes would be the better idea.

  • 07.27.2005 6:46 AM PDT
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It must be an extreme burden to look after a site with so many members you can't count. It would seem pointless and a waste of time to concentrate on people as individuals. Its a shame but i don’t think this is like the little corners of dirt I look after (web sites with between 30 and 150 members).

I seriously consider this to be a daunting task. Don't people have more important things to do than worry about the old troublemaker, I say just deal with them on the spot. Ah, sorry I'm extremely bored at the moment, that’s why I’m posting in the public forums.

  • 07.27.2005 6:55 AM PDT
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I've got two bans on this account but speaking from experience its not exactly hard to get around it. Its extremely difficult because some people have more than one computer or if during term time alot of computers. I dont know any forum that can completly stop people from getting around there ban. All bungie.net can do is make it an inconvenience to get banned.

  • 07.27.2005 7:27 AM PDT
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Posted by: KeyserNI
I've got two bans on this account but speaking from experience its not exactly hard to get around it. Its extremely difficult because some people have more than one computer or if during term time alot of computers. I dont know any forum that can completly stop people from getting around there ban. All bungie.net can do is make it an inconvenience to get banned.


Two words...

Disembodied Soul.

  • 07.27.2005 8:43 AM PDT
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Is he still there i mean he only labelled some marathon disc's wrong give him a break bungie.

  • 07.27.2005 9:31 AM PDT

With B.B. gone, the passion of Bungie.net has lessened.

Posted by: dmbfan09
*reads Shai's post*

And there are those who thought my idea was harsh...


Heh, true, what I said was harsh... but also ill-explained.

I don't think any offense should equal a smash from the banhammer. It depends on how the rules are broken. There is "bending the rules," "breaking the rules," and "complete and utter disobedience."

Bending the Rules: Every minor flame (ones that are "well-mannered" and good-humored... like mom-jokes), spam, misplaced thread (wrong forum placement), unknowingly repeated-topic, etc. Threads containing these should be locked... but I don't think it deems whoever participated in them banhammer-worthy.

Breaking the Rules: Things that clearly go against Bungie.net's terms of use and code of conduct in a negative way. Things like minor political statements, minor religious statements, saying the "N" word once or twice (that being the derogatory term for new player)... Things that might dictate a banning, but is left to more of the discretion of whatever mod sees the thread/post. I fell into this catagory, and Shishka deemed it necessary to blacklist me for things I had said... But if I were to make his choice on the matter, I would not be writing this post (if everything had been left up to me regarding what I was blacklisted for, I wouldn't have been blacklisted to begin with... but that's my discretion, not Shishka's).

Complete and Utter Disobedience: Things like flames made for no particular reason that don't solve anything, and just get on people's nerves. Things like spam made for the sake of spam... Political and religious rants, wether for or against... Saying "so-and-so is teh uber suxxor" (wether it be 1337 speak or not, I think that people should be banned for creating threads for the sole purpose of flaming a single member). In my opionion, if you don't have any respect for the rules, you shouldn't be here.

  • 07.27.2005 10:24 AM PDT
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It's hard to imagine that any hard-and-fast rule will ever work. The current system seems mostly OK to me -- Shishka and the gang are pretty efficient when someone is being really evil.

And all of us do catch BLs at some point, my only real BL was for posting a mag scan when I didn't know it was against the rules. I'm sure I'll do something equally retarded like think I'm in Zanzibar and start talking Halo somewhere sometime. Three strikes is too few screw ups for one avatar, methinks.

  • 07.27.2005 5:17 PM PDT

Save a cow, Eat a baby!
Posted by: ChiChi
Gimpy, don't be an idiot. Comparing the wiimote to the power glove is like comparing sex to dieing.

Posted by: dmbfan09
Posted by: LordCrotchpants
I'm scared...

Why is that LordCrotchpants?

Because I have been blackisted twice already. Nothing serious, I was just being stupid.

As for me, I think perma bans should only be used for very serious offenses. I like the idea of a semi-permaban. Like after three strikes you get a month vacation. I think that would teach a lesson.

  • 07.27.2005 5:36 PM PDT
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Without going off-topic, saying noob will get you a 7-day ban? Well how come this is no longer enforced? There are many topics in Zanzibar with people saying that word in every post. I hate the use of the word noob on here just like everyone else, but if the rule isn't even a high-priority anymore, why not just drop it?

  • 07.27.2005 6:05 PM PDT

It would be nice if we could create a kind of rating system to describe what "crimes" are the most malicious. We could possibly assign numbers from one to five. It would go something like this:

1- A week long ban
2- A three week long ban
3- A month long ban
4- A two month ban
5- Permanent ban

Then you could list the crimes and their appropriate rating:

ex.

Dropping the N bomb would be a 1

Spamming a forum would be a 5

Doing something along these lines just seems more practical than just banning each person for different lengths of time depending on their Forum status. It could also be a deterrent to the more severe law breaking, and would provide a set of clear, easily readable rules that aren't up to debate. You post about politics, no matter who you are, or how deep you get into them, you receive a two month ban- and so on.

  • 07.27.2005 6:50 PM PDT

*Sgt

Yeah, I think it should purely be on the severity of the "offense." And also, don't you think "five blacklistings before a permaban" is a little weak? I mean, come on, people aren't that stupid.

  • 07.27.2005 6:56 PM PDT

Posted by: SgtSTFU
And also, don't you think "five blacklistings before a permaban" is a little weak? I mean, come on, people aren't that stupid.

People aren't that stupid? As I had stated earlier in this thread, I thought of this because somebody who already had 5 blacklistings created a religious thread.

The real point is that people might think that it is OK to break the rules if the rule is considered "minor". They might be willing to take a week off just to spam a little. Well, if getting perma-banned is the consequence to being stupid enough to break any rule, people will follow the rules much closer.

  • 07.28.2005 3:03 AM PDT

Save a cow, Eat a baby!
Posted by: ChiChi
Gimpy, don't be an idiot. Comparing the wiimote to the power glove is like comparing sex to dieing.

I still think a perma ban is a little harsh. It should vary by person, like people who really deserve a perma ban, and people who screw up a little too much. Maybe for multiple offences, month or two month blacklists could be used, just not permas. At least with a month ban, the user could maybe learn a lesson, and come back a helpful user, instead of just completly shunning them from the community.

[Edited on 7/28/2005]

  • 07.28.2005 3:22 AM PDT

I'm sorry, but if somebody doesn't learn in the first two blacklistings (or whatever the number would be), they will never learn. But they would learn much quicker if the perma-ban is the final resort.

  • 07.28.2005 3:32 AM PDT

Save a cow, Eat a baby!
Posted by: ChiChi
Gimpy, don't be an idiot. Comparing the wiimote to the power glove is like comparing sex to dieing.

Yea they'll learn, but for what? They won't be comming back.

*slams fist*

I say month bans should be used!

  • 07.28.2005 3:34 AM PDT

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