Halo 1 & 2 for PC
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Subject: Xbox emulators; read carefully before you ban me ninjas ;)
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I’ve seen a lot of talk about BLAMing “Moneysoft” and grabbing an emulator for halo 2 recently. So I did a little research and came up with two reasons you REALLY don’t want to do that players.

1. Any emulator that claims to run halo 2 at the time of this post is a virus. You download it onto your computer; you’re in for a nasty surprise. To dispel the myths that there are Halo 2 emulators already out there, read on:

Windows can not interpret the Xbox disc because it is burnt as "fat-x" format whereas windows uses "fat-32". Also, the chipset has to be emulated, along with a hard drive which doubles as 3 RAM drives and that Xbox games are essentially programs. The Xbox reads a CD, searches for "default.xbe" and executes it. I’m not sure on the progress of Xbox emulation, but I would pin a consistently (i.e. an emulator that can run most Xbox games on your computer) working emulator as nearly impossible and useless without an original Xbox to begin with.

It’s kind of like getting a person who speaks French to understand someone who only speaks Spanish. Both are romantic languages, with similar words and sounds, but actually getting them to have a conversation (or in this instance, play a word game) would be nearly impossible. Information is misunderstood, poorly translated, or otherwise corrupted.

In short, you end up with cruddy gameplay even if you do get a working emulator. But as I said, you won’t find one…yet.


2. Xbox uses copyrighted and trademarked information as part of the handshake between their CD programs and the Xbox OS. Some of you may decide when a working H2 emulator comes out that they will buy or rent Halo 2 and just play it on their computer to see what it’s like. I mean, you’re not hurting anyone, and you’re not really breaking a law, right?

WRONG!

The information (and probably even the software code) used to speak between game CDs and consoles is copyrighted. Now Microsoft could make a PCI card which translated the CD into readable Windows language, but they won’t. They want to sell consoles. Add to that, such a translation card would make pirating easier and…well, you get the picture.

To summarize: Players. If someone is advertising an emulator on open chat in Halo PC, avoid them. They’re trying to get you to break your own computer. And when the day does come that emulators start popping up, dish out the green for halo 2 anyway. You’ll enjoy the game better.

And a friendly reminder in case you think halo 2 will never come out for PC: Companies globally piss off hackers at their own peril. They won’t leave the computer community hanging, they know better.

[Edited on 8/9/2005]

  • 08.08.2005 10:26 AM PDT
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This is probably a dumb question but whats an emulator?

  • 08.08.2005 5:43 PM PDT
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an emulator is a program that simulates a system (computer, game console).

  • 08.08.2005 5:51 PM PDT
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Wow, you done your research. I'm amazed that I understanded it.

[Edited on 8/8/2005]

  • 08.08.2005 10:44 PM PDT
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Are there any true emulators? If so is there one for the PS2? And If microsoft sold the emulator card for = or + than the actuall system then they would be making even more profit for those who want to use their graphics card, ect.

  • 08.09.2005 10:14 AM PDT
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I dont think there any true emulators for the xbox, gamecube, or PS2.

i have seen snes and playsation 1 and n64 work very well.

  • 08.09.2005 10:42 AM PDT
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what i dont get is why you would try to get an emulator not only do you have to go to a contraband website to get(you will probbly be traced)it, most of the time they will have vrusus or hacking programs and it hurts when you find out to late. so my suggestion is this; dont get one its not worth breaking piracy laws not only will your comp get trashed you WILL be arrested and get a $10,000 fine and/or ten years in prison. bungie has already said that this is not a joke.

  • 08.09.2005 1:24 PM PDT

* Pr: ĭnʹtərnĕts: "I hear there's rumors on the uh (pause), Internets...

Well, the CD has a ROM in it, dosen't it?

A program could just emulate the video, RAM, processor and such.

  • 08.09.2005 2:34 PM PDT
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There are a few true emulators but none can even run Halo 1 entirely. There is a PS2 emulator in beta. NO THE ARE NOT VIRIUSES.

Emulator Zone

  • 08.09.2005 2:52 PM PDT
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isnt there a rule about posting the sites for emulators on here?

(im talking to the guy who posted above this, not the original author of the post)

[Edited on 8/10/2005]

  • 08.10.2005 11:01 PM PDT
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Posted by: Heero139
isnt there a rule about posting the sites for emulators on here?

(im talking to the guy who posted above this, not the original author of the post)

i believe that the rule applies to warez, hacks, key generators, etc. Correct me if i'm wrong, but i don't think having an emulator is illegal if you own the system that the emulator is for. I think the same rule applies to the game ROMs. And i think you can delete the ROMs you don't own for real within 24 hours to avoid serious penalty.

  • 08.11.2005 2:38 AM PDT
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There seems to be some confusion about a portion of this post topic, so I’ll attempt to clarify:

As I said, any emulator that boasts the ability to play HALO 2 at the time of this post is a virus. Yes, there are emulators that work for older Xbox games.

Also, when I wrote this post, I was speaking about console emulators. I don’t know the legalese on the issue, but it’s my understanding that to have an emulator for a console is illegal, whether you own the console or not. Both the software used to talk to the CD and the software used to RUN the CD (the software IN the CD) are copyright protected. Any emulator not provided by the copyright owner would then be pirated code and, therefore, illegal to make and to own.

Think of it this way: Microsoft owns the paper and the words printed in the “Halo 2 book”. No; this "book" is not for download online and you can only buy it at stores Microsoft wants you to buy it from. You can’t have one without the other. What console emulators (try to) do, is give you the paper for free. But if you do that, you’ve just stolen a part of the “book” from Microsoft.

Don’t get your knickers in a twist though; there are some good emulators out there. These are not console emulators, but OS emulators, that allow people to run programs from older versions of Windows on newer OS. It’s hard to get some Windows 98 programs to run on Windows XP (for instance I have a problem getting Heavy Metal 2 to run on my new system) due to changes in the code and how the software talks to the hardware.

There are also emulators which allow other OS to run programs designed to run on Windows. These don’t duplicate the code of the Windows OS that they ‘emulate’ but rather translate so the program can understand an OS that it was not designed to, and vice versa.

In this case, Microsoft was paid its royalties by the company that made software using Windows code. The company you bought the program from gave you the “paper” whne you bought the program and paid Microsoft for the right to use its “words”.

These types of emulators are not illegal (though Microsoft might wish they were) as they are end user and assume you have purchased the software and the OS you want, but can’t get one to work with the other. An example of this is the Cedega (WineX) for Linux, an emulator downloaded to play Windows programed games on it. Theoretically, you could run halo PC on a Linux operating system, though it will not play as stable (well, compared to Linux, no microsoft software is stable...).

If these types of emulators were illegal, Microsoft would be jumping on Linspre right now like a pack of wild dogs on fresh ground round.

So, to restate the mission of this post: console emulators = bad (as in “Why are my hard drives deleting themselves?” bad) = jail time & heavy fines most of us can’t pay.

Thank you for your time and I hope this cleared up any confusion.

“-“ Minus Sign

[Edited on 8/11/2005]

  • 08.11.2005 6:38 AM PDT
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you guys have to understand copyright laws, if you have it they dont give a crap. if you get it again illegaly through an emulator you are still breaking copyright law. of course the one minus mentioned no one cares for since they are extremely helfull.but console emulators that are younger than the nintendo are illegal. i say this cause the copyrights on the atari and the first nintendo and sega consoles are expired. pretty short the ps, the super nintendo , n64 and the remaining sega consoles will also expire their copyrights. but for now they are still illegal so in short MOST console emulators are bad but some of them are legal.

  • 08.11.2005 1:42 PM PDT
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you're only realy allowed to download an emulator if you alredo own the system. but most roms have crappy ports, so i'm happy playing my REAL n64.

  • 08.11.2005 7:12 PM PDT
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Posted by: grimreaper01919
you guys have to understand copyright laws, if you have it they dont give a crap. if you get it again illegaly through an emulator you are still breaking copyright law. of course the one minus mentioned no one cares for since they are extremely helfull.but console emulators that are younger than the nintendo are illegal. i say this cause the copyrights on the atari and the first nintendo and sega consoles are expired. pretty short the ps, the super nintendo , n64 and the remaining sega consoles will also expire their copyrights. but for now they are still illegal so in short MOST console emulators are bad but some of them are legal.


No.I have read Nintendo, Sega, and Sony's official statements regarding Intellectual Property. I have witnessed firsthand the Wonderful World of Emulation wwwoe.net being shut down by Nintendo. I have stood aside and spectated Nintendo's crusade through any and all ROMs sites.

Emulators are 100 % legal.

How should the lowly aM Inspire have the knowledge and the authority to speak such blasphemy? Because I ran a roms / emulation site for about four years. I hotlinked all over geocities to expand my storage space. I had over 100 hits a day - which wasn't bad, considering my bandwidth was capped. Finally, I got to a redesign and I got smart on all the legal issues - but eventually I just lost interest.

Emulators break no law - they do not alter the source of the console OS, they do not infringe on any copyright. What [i]are[i] illegal are ROMs made by software companies and protected under Intellectual Property Disclosures.

ROMs are the actual game image that emulators run. There are some home-made and freely distributed ROMs out there - they break no laws whatsoever.

The illegal ROMs are the ones that most folks want though - because they can get them for free. The standard disclaimer on many websites' was that you had to:

#1 Own the actual game cartridge.
or
#2 Delete the ROM after 24 hours.

That held up until Nintendo got out its beating stick. How many people do you think actually cared about the disclaimer? As a result, while websites weren't sued, they were forced via legal pressure to shut down.

ROMs have now gone the way of most cracks and warez - Peer-to-Peer networks. Half or more of which are trash or viruses.

As for the developers, Sega pretty much quit pursuing violations when it threw in the towel as a console developer.

The sites are not being monitored, folks - they are mostly shut down.

So to drive home my point, and no offense, Minus or Grim

All Emulators are 100 % legal*

* - unless they are hacked from porprietary source code (which, to my knowledge, none are - they are almost all built from the ground up.)

[Edited on 8/11/2005]

  • 08.11.2005 10:00 PM PDT
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Minus, I posted a reply before i read all the way through your post.


2. Xbox uses copyrighted and trademarked information as part of the handshake between their CD programs and the Xbox OS. Some of you may decide when a working H2 emulator comes out that they will buy or rent Halo 2 and just play it on their computer to see what it’s like. I mean, you’re not hurting anyone, and you’re not really breaking a law, right?

WRONG!


Wrong. Owning an Image of H2 without owning the cartridge is the infraction. You have committed a logical fallacy, Minus. You have equivocated a working emaultor with one that uses thi Porprieitary Information. In the realm of Computer Science and Programming, Minus, there is more than one way to skin a cat. This is why most emulators are works in constant progress, because they are built from the ground up - not using any of this Porprietary Information. That's also why most don't run perfectly. The emulator is a mark of programming ingenuity in that it demonstrates man's capacity to retro-engineer an algortihm from very little.


The information (and probably even the software code) used to speak between game CDs and consoles is copyrighted. Now Microsoft could make a PCI card which translated the CD into readable Windows language, but they won’t. They want to sell consoles. Add to that, such a translation card would make pirating easier and…well, you get the picture.

To summarize: Players. If someone is advertising an emulator on open chat in Halo PC, avoid them. They’re trying to get you to break your own computer. And when the day does come that emulators start popping up, dish out the green for halo 2 anyway. You’ll enjoy the game better.


Yes, well, you're probably right. Console emulation died at the last generation of consoles. It's very dubious that you'll be able to ply H2 via an emulator.

  • 08.11.2005 10:09 PM PDT
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Well, that shut me up…almost.

AM Inspire, you've awakened a beast: my CURIOUSITY!

If all emulators are 100% legal, why does it sound that Nintendo was successful in legal actions against their creators to the point that you can only find them on p2p networks now? Or are you just talking about ROMs there and I misread?

Also you say:

ROMs are the actual game image that emulators run. There are some home-made and freely distributed ROMs out there - they break no laws whatsoever.

But then go on to say

The illegal ROMs are the ones that most folks want though - because they can get them for free. The standard disclaimer on many websites' was that you had to:

#1 Own the actual game cartridge.
or
#2 Delete the ROM after 24 hours.

That held up until Nintendo got out its beating stick. How many people do you think actually cared about the disclaimer? As a result, while websites weren't sued, they were forced via legal pressure to shut down.


How are the legal ROMs different from the illegal ones? Do they self terminate after 24 hours? Or is there some other protocol that prevents “misuse” by end users?

Finally, how could an emulator for a new console function without at least some proprietary information? It is my understanding that new console games and consoles have a “handshake”; a dedicated set of copyrighted code that will not allow the disc to play until it is complete. One portion of the code exists in the console, the other half is held within the game itself. This, as far as my understanding goes, is one of the main reasons why Xbox emulators are so hard to create in the first place. I know the code can be duplicated, but wouldn’t that be like rewriting a portion of Moby Dick and claiming it was your own?

Please, clarify and enlighten.

“-“ Minus Sign


[Edited on 8/12/2005]

  • 08.12.2005 2:17 AM PDT
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I was editing the above post when you replied Mr b, so I caught it and would like to respond:

But then we’re back to the Moby Dick issue. Not only does Microsoft own the software code for the game, they also own the game itself. Right down to the dialogue.

If the ROM is for halo 2, with the same story line and information contained within halo 2, it would be illegal to duplicate or risk plagiarism.

An example:

CORTANA:
The message just repeats. 'Regret, Regret, Regret.'
The Chief watches from the stern of a Pelican as the clouds roll by below.
MIRANDA:
Catchy. Any idea what it means?
SGT. JOHNSON (as the dropships approach the outskirts of Mombasa):
Dear Humanity... we regret being alien (censored by poster). We regret coming to Earth.
Inside the cockpit of the lead Pelican, Johnson leans against the bulkhead behind the two pilots.
SGT. JOHNSON:
And we most definitely regret that the Corps just blew up our raggedy-(censored by poster) fleet!
PILOTS (in unison):
Hoo-rah!
CORTANA (radio):
Regret is a name, Sergeant….

excerpt from halosm.bungie.org/story/halo2_level_transcripts

Someone wrote that dialogue. Someone else read that dialogue into a microphone, allowing their voice to carry the words and importance to us. Though I have not technically broken copyright law, both because this information is free to the public for download and I quote the source, if I had changed the names of these characters, or edited there responses without telling you and then set this up as a ‘story” of my own, I would be liable for prosecution. Worse, if I had NOT edited them, but handed you the story as it is and claimed it for my own work, it would be flagrant plagiarism.

Microsoft owns this image. They own the characters. They own the story. They own the game. Any ROM or emulator which “duplicates” the game, in whole or in part (character, dialogue, storyline) would be stealing the intellectual property of the person who first wrote it, the person who read the script. What you’re describing sounds like plagiarism. Be it Mario brothers for NES or Halo 3 for the Xbox 360, if the storyline is being duplicated, you have a new problem.

  • 08.12.2005 3:16 AM PDT
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Posted by: Mr B
I never said X doesnt still own the game. Thats why I said about the 24 hour trial/test thing. Im not sure if thats legal, but from what I have seen, I think so.

if it was illegal, it's like saying it's illegal to borrow your friends CD for 24 hours before you buy your own.

  • 08.12.2005 12:58 PM PDT
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Thanks for the clarification on the legal ROMs, Mr. B - you nailed it - they are user created (which means they usually run a little better than Proprietary ROMs...) and most of them do, in fact, suck.


If all emulators are 100% legal, why does it sound that Nintendo was successful in legal actions against their creators to the point that you can only find them on p2p networks now? Or are you just talking about ROMs there and I misread?


Yes, I was just talking about the ROMs sites - most of them featured ROMs and emulators. The creators of these emulators are to this day unscathed. There was even one prick who made the best gameboy color emualtor ever to grace the face of the earth who eventually started charging $5 for a license to run the program. He is now rich and there is nothing anybody can do about it.


How are the legal ROMs different from the illegal ones? Do they self terminate after 24 hours? Or is there some other protocol that prevents “misuse” by end users?


Mr. B already covered some of this. They do not self-terminate; they are independently created and freely distributed. There is and never was any protocol to self-terminate ROMs after 24 hours. Therein lies the problem. People can click "I Agree" and have access to illegal content. I think the 24 hours thing was really just a half-assed attempt for some of these sites to claim they weren't violating any laws. If you actually read Nintendo's IP (Intellectual Property) statement, it states that there is no trial period for ROMs. Now, I don't think it does much more than try to scare you into thinking ROMs are 100% illegal. That's not true. You are entitled by law to backup your data. As long as you own it.

That kind of leads into something different, but related to emulation - hacking. Not the take over your computer Mission: Impossible hacking, but actually using a hex editor to screw with ROMs - Illegal? eh, yeah, depending on how the developer feels about people modifying its source and how much credit you give the original developer. Most of hacking though, is just playing around with stuff until it works - believe it or not, most of these emulation projects are done without any knowledge of the console OS, other than what they can figure out by viewing the ROMs' source - which isn't illegal in itself.


Finally, how could an emulator for a new console function without at least some proprietary information? It is my understanding that new console games and consoles have a “handshake”; a dedicated set of copyrighted code that will not allow the disc to play until it is complete. One portion of the code exists in the console, the other half is held within the game itself. This, as far as my understanding goes, is one of the main reasons why Xbox emulators are so hard to create in the first place. I know the code can be duplicated, but wouldn’t that be like rewriting a portion of Moby Dick and claiming it was your own?


No, a better analogy would be like paraphrasing the Bible and claiming rights to the translation. You could write a program, Minus, that counts down to Armageddon, and I could write a program that does the same thing, but the code may be completely different.

The code is the program. If the code is subnstantially different, and I have revision history to prove that I developed my program independently of yours, then you can't charge me with copyright infringement (unless you're willing to lose and sustain a hefty counter-suit).

The last generation of consoles does use a lock and key style OS. That's why you don't see hardly any, to my knowledge, XBOX, PS2, or Gamecube emulators out there. Add that to the fact that, I believe all three of the systems or 256-bit (I could be wrong), and it makes it impossible to emulate on a 32-bit OS. Emulation will suffer its fate as Gaming consoles have been built to effectively rival the gaming hardware of the PC.

To emulate 16-bit DOS, my computer lags like crazy (DOSBox). Emulators eat processing time like Kazaa eats system resources. Not to mention that N64 ROMs got to be well over 10 MB large - which was a huge download back before broadband became so widespread and affordable.

You've seen a general shift in the Piracy community towards modding consoles, but even that is being stamped out.

But, back to your point - most emulators already in existence are not for the current generation of consoles, and as such, they were able to be developed without infringing on any copyrights or proprietary information.

  • 08.12.2005 1:16 PM PDT
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Posted by: Mr MA5B
Posted by: Mr B
I never said X doesnt still own the game. Thats why I said about the 24 hour trial/test thing. Im not sure if thats legal, but from what I have seen, I think so.

if it was illegal, it's like saying it's illegal to borrow your friends CD for 24 hours before you buy your own.


Sounds like a legal quagmire....

If you don't own a license and you use your friend's, that is illegal... Now there is no way to enforce that, but it is illegal unless you own a license or have permission to use the program without a license.

  • 08.12.2005 1:19 PM PDT
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Posted by: Mr B
I never said X doesnt still own the game. Thats why I said about the 24 hour trial/test thing. Im not sure if thats legal, but from what I have seen, I think so.

Posted by Mr MA5B
if it was illegal, it's like saying it's illegal to borrow your friends CD for 24 hours before you buy your own.


It’s not illegal to borrow your friends CD for 24 hours before you buy your own. He paid for that CD and has the right to do just about anything he wants with it (including give it to you). But what we’re talking about with most people using ROM and modding technology is that they want to borrow the CD and either not return it or dump the copy in the trash can when they get tired of it. That’s the conundrum and the reason for the current clash between the entertainment industry and the end user modders. You can borrow your friends CD, yes, but you can’t legally burn that CD for your own use.

Ok, I’m versed on the idea of backing up data. In theory I could burn a copy of Halo PC, if I so desired, as protection against the first disc getting damaged. That makes sense and I’m fine with that. But I need a little clarification on ROMs and how they work. From what I’ve gathered and what’s been posted, it sounds like someone is “recreating” the game as a different program.

Copying a ROM of Halo 2 would be legal IF you own a copy of the game and are just backing up the data for your own purposes. But distributing it for download is where the illegalities lie, as it would be like distributing “free” music or (more accurate in this case) free software.

Now, if an emulator is just a program to play the data on a disc you own or rent, then yes, its legal. Most of the time. It’s, of course, legal to make data viewers and other executable programs that play data from disc.

When the legal issue hits on emulation is with the lock and key protocols newer console OS (emulators) have. Now, one could assume a new lock or a new key can be made for the emulator you create, whichever side you have to recreate, but if you use the (we’ll say “key”) that the manufacturer used to protect his data, then you’ve crossing a line because this is part of the original OS of the console and copyrighted data. If that is the case, they are illegal to make (and possibly to own). You have to make your own key from scratch to legally create an emulator for new games.


[Edited on 8/13/2005]

  • 08.13.2005 1:00 PM PDT

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