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This topic has moved here: Subject: Has Bungie outgrown the Bungie.net forums?
  • Subject: Has Bungie outgrown the Bungie.net forums?
Subject: Has Bungie outgrown the Bungie.net forums?
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Here are my thoughts.
Back in the day, when Bungie was relatively small and unknown, the community was small and tightknit. Even in the years after Halo game out, there was little reason for folks to come here UNLESS they wanted to swoon over the coming Halo 2 or appreciate Bungie. It had a small town feel where the community moderated itself for the most part. Volunteer moderators were fine because it was a "we all help each other out" type world.

But Halo 2 expanded the online issue many many fold. Now, anyone with Halo 2 and XboxLive will come here to check out all the cool features. They are great and expansive. However, the forums have continued to crumble under the weight. As individuals and groups have used Nungie.net to create mini-communities and factions, the control of the forums as been as it was before. The leash was very very loose. And of course maddness has insued.

Don't get me wrong. I am not bagging on the moderators. They try. But they are volunteers and apparently given little direction. One never knows if a post might be off topic (Should it be in Zanzibar or Optimatch? Should it be in Underground or The Sept?). The policies on when to lock, delete or move seem extremely arbitary. Some one can flood a forum with a hundred spams full of hate and end up with a 7 day blacklist, and a humorous if mildly off topic post can get someone a 6 month ban. Moderators, not being Bungie employees, are given no real control to give actual answers if it is more complicated than "Who is Ling Ling" or "How to I link my GT," and often answers must come from the random users who often don't know what they are talking about. One never knows exactly who to PM when there is a trouble on the site because you never know who is around.

I have heard it said this is NOT a customer support site. Which is fine, but they DO NOT have a customer support site. 18004MYXBOX is supposedly it, but unless you have a connection issue they are alll but useless. And the portions of the site that are there for customer support are neglected (see multiplayer map guides).

Don't get me started on the webcam.

It seems that they don't have the staff to handle it. It is too big and unruly not to have fulll time moderators (hint: interns) who you can count on to handle issues in a standard way and can give "official answers." These answers may very well be, "Bungie has no opinion on that," but that is better than "I don't actually work for Bungie so I won't be able to tell you but here are my thoughts...." They could also handle banning questions by actually looking the information up, which, when it happens, currently falls upon Achronos and that is not his job.

Bungie is no long small town. It's fan base is in the leagues of EA and UbiSoft and should probably start acting like it. I realize this would take a lot ofthe personality out ofthe place, but currently the personality is maddness and hate and yelling and complaining. Perhaps there are places for private groups where Bungie can invite those long term fans or ones who have earned a place. Yes, it is elitist. But right now it s mob rule.

  • 08.18.2005 12:50 PM PDT
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....heathen....

  • 08.18.2005 12:58 PM PDT
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Ah, I know this will be unpopular. But this happens when ever anything grows beyond its smaller roots. You remember that band you used to see in the small bar and could hang out with them afterwards, but now that they've signed a contract you can't get near them?

  • 08.18.2005 1:02 PM PDT
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what are you suggesting?

  • 08.18.2005 1:04 PM PDT

Ach! Was ist los?

I think (s)he's suggesting that being successful has hurt Bungie's community side.

I would have disagreed with that opinion, but then Halo 2 came out. If you ask me, we just need more moderators with Perma-Ban rights.

  • 08.18.2005 1:09 PM PDT
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I totally agree. Rememeber just two days ago the flood was spammed all the way to the 19 page with "Shishka is a Pegboy" and then finally the problem was eventually taken care of, but still a couple of spammers were left over spamming various threads. I think one mod to a forum would cover this spam more effeciently.

[Edited on 8/18/2005]

  • 08.18.2005 1:11 PM PDT
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I am suggesting that they make it a lot more "corporate." Make clearer forums. Remove the flood. Make it a customer support site and not a commmunity center. Put it a lot more controls that are not so arbitrary. Sure, keep "groups."
It is not just spam. It is also totally well meaning folks who think they are part of the community is some way but discover that they aren't. The community is way to diverse to be run by itself. Sure a town with a population of 1000 can function pretty well with just a sheriff. New York needs police helicopters.

[Edited on 8/18/2005]

  • 08.18.2005 1:12 PM PDT
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That's the same spammer.
He just keeps creating new accounts.

  • 08.18.2005 1:12 PM PDT
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Posted by: CinderSkip
I am suggesting that they make it a lot more "corporate." Make clearer forums. Remove the flood. Make it a customer support site and not a commmunity center. Put it a lot more controls that are not so arbitrary. Sure, keep "groups."


But I like the flood.

  • 08.18.2005 1:13 PM PDT
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I like the Flood too. But is it really Bungie's position to have it. It creates an atmosphere of "Oh, this is our community," when it's not anymore.

  • 08.18.2005 1:17 PM PDT
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No, the flood stays. I'm sorry but that is a requirement. Frankly that would be an atrocity to the forums if you took away the flood. I just think we need more mods, and one or two mods taking shifts or something to each forum. We can still keep some personality what the hell do you think Frankie's for?

  • 08.18.2005 1:18 PM PDT
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Posted by: CinderSkip
I am suggesting that they make it a lot more "corporate." Make clearer forums. Remove the flood. Make it a customer support site and not a commmunity center. Put it a lot more controls that are not so arbitrary. Sure, keep "groups."

At first it sounded like you wanted bungie to return to its "small town" roots, but this is going the complete opposite way.

  • 08.18.2005 1:18 PM PDT
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The flood needs to be there, else we would have everyone creating random off topic post that belong there in every other forum. I also think that the mods do a good job.

  • 08.18.2005 1:18 PM PDT
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While your points have merit, there's a limit to what Achronos can do. Yes, he could upgrade more users to moderators; and probably, at some point, will. But that will never solve the problems we have here. People will be stupid, more moderators might decrease the time in which malicious users can disrupt, but they are not able to eliminate idiocy and spamming altogether.

The way the community has changed is a result of the popularity Halo and Halo 2 have received. Unfortunately, a lot of the users attracted by Halo 2 are spammers and flamers, there is no way to fix this. No matter what Bungie do, the personalities of their new users is something they cannot change.

As far as I know, all questions are answered swiftly and accurately; if not by an employee, then by a moderator; if not by a moderator then by a knowledgeable regular member. It's safe to assume that if the mods say something is official, it's official. They are in contact with the employees.

The elitist private groups have been discussed before. There are some groups who accept only the mature members on Bungie.net and frown on morons, but it's not particularly pleasant for new and potentially good members to see a special area for the best of the best; in fact, it could be quite offputting. At some point a karma system may be implemented, but unfortunately a large portion of the community would likely abuse it.

  • 08.18.2005 1:19 PM PDT
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Yeah, I don't want Bungie to become a facist dictatorship.

  • 08.18.2005 1:22 PM PDT
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Posted By: Psyched
While your points have merit........would likely abuse it.

*applauds*

  • 08.18.2005 1:26 PM PDT
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It is too late to return. It's too big. I also believe the moderators do a good job, but there are too few of them, they are not on all the time and they are not given the ability to give actual answers.

The Flood is not the problem. It fact it is relatively well behaived. Because folks don'tget much satisfaction from attacking The Flood.

I am saying keep private groups. Let folks moderate themselves there. Make no pretense that Bungie will control those.
Remove all none game related forums. That includes The Sept. Remove the Love Bungie for Just Being Bungie side ofthe website (which I do Love Bungie for Just being Bungie). Tighten the other forums. Combine Zanzibar and Optimatch. And the rule the place wioth an iron fist and make no bones about it. It would be for Bungie support or nothing. Allow a suggestion box that is private but don't open it to discussion. Folks want to discuss it, they can do it in private groups. Occasionally open a Topic ("Should we have Such and Such Playlist") but them moderate the topic HEAVILY.

  • 08.18.2005 1:27 PM PDT
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Posted by: CinderSkip
It is too late to return. It's too big. I also believe the moderators do a good job, but there are too few of them, they are not on all the time and they are not given the ability to give actual answers.

The Flood is not the problem. It fact it is relatively well behaived. Because folks don'tget much satisfaction from attacking The Flood.

I am saying keep private groups. Let folks moderate themselves there. Make no pretense that Bungie will control those.
Remove all none game related forums. That includes The Sept. Remove the Love Bungie for Just Being Bungie side ofthe website (which I do Love Bungie for Just being Bungie). Tighten the other forums. Combine Zanzibar and Optimatch. And the rule the place wioth an iron fist and make no bones about it. It would be for Bungie support or nothing. Allow a suggestion box that is private but don't open it to discussion. Folks want to discuss it, they can do it in private groups. Occasionally open a Topic ("Should we have Such and Such Playlist") but them moderate the topic HEAVILY.


A lot of the issues for which moderators are required could be solved by the users themselves. For example, if someone fills up the Flood with disgusting topics, users ignoring them would help an enormous amount. If the community aren't willing to help themselves, then unfortunately the moderators and employees can't help them much either.

  • 08.18.2005 1:32 PM PDT
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So if I'm reading you correctly, what you want is for Bungie to just turn into a faceless drone company with no sympathy for its costumers and have it only revolve around itself?

  • 08.18.2005 1:34 PM PDT
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Posted by: Psyched
While your points have merit, there's a limit to what Achronos can do.

This is my point. The current system is beyond saving and will continue to get worse.

Answers often go days without being answered and erupt into hate filled flame wars that end in a moderator say, "Enough is enough," and locking it.

There is middle ground being walked right now and you can tell that it is getting to the moderators because they can't keep up. And when they do act, the all react so diiferently. And moderators have been contricting other moderators.

What I am saying is that Bungie doesn't need a community forum any more. Others can make community forums. The need a product support site.

I realize how much folks would hate this, but in lots of ways the forums are causing more ill will then good (spend a day in Zanzibar or Optimatch). But, as the topic says, I think they;ve outgrown the small town and can't go back.

  • 08.18.2005 1:34 PM PDT
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I don't see how combining two flame and spam thrilled threads cuts back on it.

  • 08.18.2005 1:37 PM PDT
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Psyched, I am agreeing with you. But there are too many folks to expect them to behave at all. It's just not going to happen. The current system will never be able to fix the problem. I am not blaiming them. There aren't enough of them, they aren't paid, blah blah blah. The actual Bungie.net staff spends so much time just trying to keep theforums under control that all the other issues that could make the site useful are give the short shift.

Interns.

  • 08.18.2005 1:39 PM PDT
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Therein lies the greatest problem, a lot of users' inability or unwillingness to read. They see "Bungie" in the URL and immediately think that it's for them to use as they see fit. Not only would making a site for the sole purpose of product support split up the mature existing communities but it would also succumb to the same fate as Bungie.net.

This is my point. The current system is beyond saving and will continue to get worse.

Answers often go days without being answered and erupt into hate filled flame wars that end in a moderator say, "Enough is enough," and locking it.

There is middle ground being walked right now and you can tell that it is getting to the moderators because they can't keep up. And when they do act, the all react so diiferently. And moderators have been contricting other moderators.

What I am saying is that Bungie doesn't need a community forum any more. Others can make community forums. The need a product support site.

I realize how much folks would hate this, but in lots of ways the forums are causing more ill will then good (spend a day in Zanzibar or Optimatch). But, as the topic says, I think they;ve outgrown the small town and can't go back.


[Edited on 8/18/2005]

  • 08.18.2005 1:42 PM PDT
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Posted by: Gnome
So if I'm reading you correctly, what you want is for Bungie to just turn into a faceless drone company with no sympathy for its costumers and have it only revolve around itself?

They can have tons of sympathy for their customers butthey need to stop trying to act like their buddies. And, yes, they need to become more corporate at least as far as the forums go. Put more energy towrads articles and site content, but cut down the pretense of this direct intereaction. Many folks here have an unreasonable expectation of their relationship with Bungie employees.
It would cost more money, I agree. You would have to hire people. It should be clearer what is okay and what is not okay and that means drawing a line inthe sand. It's a bit like modding in Halo 2. Noone really has a problem if folks mod in custom games but you can't open the door.

  • 08.18.2005 1:44 PM PDT