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This topic has moved here: Subject: Has Bungie outgrown the Bungie.net forums?
  • Subject: Has Bungie outgrown the Bungie.net forums?
Subject: Has Bungie outgrown the Bungie.net forums?
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Posted by: KeyserNI
It’s easy to explain some people are just plain annoying and they deem it necessary to annoy others. A typical example is Zanzibar some guy created a thread looking for friends from his own country Canada almost immediately somebody feels the need to flame him for looking for Canadian friends and a couple of other people decide to flame as well. The first flamer then decides to create a thread called Americans only and in turn gets flamed. It’s a vicious cycle. How about giving certain members of each forum the power to lock a thread until a Mod has the time to give it a look over and see if it’s relevant or does indeed need locked. An even simpler solution is to have a report thread button.



My point is not how the forums are run, but that they cannot be what Bungie wants them to be. Yes, what I am advocating is killing exactly one of things we love about them.

  • 08.18.2005 3:13 PM PDT
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Posted by: CinderSkip
My point is not how the forums are run, but that they cannot be what Bungie wants them to be. Yes, what I am advocating is killing exactly one of things we love about them.


Why do you think you know what Bungie wants it's forums to be? it seems to me that this is what you want to Bungie.net forums to be. If Bungie didn't want a community based forum they wouldn't have spent so much time making it.

  • 08.18.2005 3:17 PM PDT
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Posted by: Hogbipe
[Why do you think you know what Bungie wants it's forums to be? it seems to me that this is what you want to Bungie.net forums to be. If Bungie didn't want a community based forum they wouldn't have spent so much time making it.

I DO believe Bungie wants a community based forum.

I would love for the forums to stay community based, I just don't believe that is actually happening in any of the Halo 2 forums. All the "mature" folks are leaving and they are becoming hateful places where Bungie's only presence is an iron first. But since people THINK thatthey have a real connection with Bungie they just get angry when they don't get a response. So I am NOT saying Bungie can respond to every tom, dick and jane. That is unreasonerable. So if it becoes impossible to create an actual community, it becomes a case of figiuring how what they can do.

I assume the way the forums are are NOT the way Bungie would like them.

[Edited on 8/18/2005]

  • 08.18.2005 3:28 PM PDT
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Bungie's community has to self-manage itself, as I said. People think that Bungie will fix all the Forums' troubles; they just aren't willing to try themselves. In the end, the only thing I believe they can do is leave things as they are. Add a new feature or two every so often. Maybe add a few more moderators as time progresses. They try their best to maintain a good community site. How can they fix the Halo 2 Forums? Remove them all together, or leave them as they are? Interns would still not be able to change the type of people joining.

I agree that action has to be taken. But it is not Bungie who should be taking it. It should be us, the community. Post relevant responses in Zanzibar and New Mombasa. Let new people know they're not alone, maybe go further still. And those new people, they need to use their own initiative. If a Forum labelled "Community" isn't enough to bring them over and feel that they are connected to Bungie (because, to be frank, this is by far the best Forum and the one most frequented by employees), then they're clearly lacking a degree of willingness to help themselves get involved.

Bungie's presence is all around us. The individual webpages. Knowledge instilled into the minds of regular/experienced Forum visitors. And of course, the visits from employees themselves. The definition of community is a group of people who are as a unit. Not a bunch of scattered people relying on guidance from the overseers. People not working together and helping out = no community = complete domination of useless posts, death of anything worthwhile on Bnet, no more new and mature members.

  • 08.18.2005 3:43 PM PDT
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There are only a certain number of members I respect and they are the only one's I take seriously. If someone asks a question and I have the answer then I give it to them. If someone flames I ask why. I try to be a decent member what more can I do. Almost everyone that reads this and posts will be a decent member because they took the time to read all the way to the end but most of the wrong doers don't enter the Septagon because they receive no encouragement for there actions.

[Edited on 8/19/2005]

  • 08.18.2005 3:52 PM PDT

I'll be on my own side.

The message conveyed by this thread is: Halo 2 attracted a lot of idiots, and all of the old-school and cool members arent around anymore. The forums have degraded because of that, and as a result, the Bungie community has degraded as well.

I agree, most of the cool guys arent around anymore, but some of the most prominent have stuck around (Barron, Shai) and we have newer people that are equally kickass (Vella, Psyched), but they are far outweighed by the number of retards we have here now. Just look at Zanzibar.

More moderators would help, provided they are as helpful and intelligent as the current bunch.

The only safe havens from all the madness of the other forums is the Septagon. All the old-school and decent people are usually in here, and its kept clean because the mods focus on it a lot more than the others. Maybe more moderators would help keep other forums as clean as the Septagon.

  • 08.18.2005 4:21 PM PDT
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For the most part, this is one of the better threads I've read on Bnet in quite some time... actual intelligent conversation around a single on-topic post. There are some great points here and as always everyone is entitled to their opinions.

Suffice it to say that in many ways we feel your pain and agree with much of what is being said regarding the current state of our site and our forums. The experience is obviously not at the level we'd like it to be. We are currently working on development specs for future updates that are primarily designed to improve and enchance the existing community aspects of our site. We aren't going to abandon this - we are going to embrace it even more.

We will not turn into a sterile customer support website for that is not who we are. In that case, we'd probably be more apt to just shut down the site altogether. How many other MGS 1st party developers have their own website? (for "community" or for "support"?) We choose to operate this site because we want to, we could easily shut it down tomorrow. We don't generate any revenue from it, in fact, just the opposite. And yes, most of the time we just subject ourselves to infinite amount of hate and complete stupidity. We do it because we always have and even through all the spammers and haters and jerks there are some people who do enjoy meeting new people and sharing common experiences and learning more about our studio. Admittedly, this is becoming less common now as the sheer volume of negativity has officially far outweighed the positives.

We are working on several ways to hopefully improve the situation here and make it more enjoyable for the people who want to be here. The rumored "karma system" is being spec'd out and if it comes to fruition will bring a system that rewards positive contributors and shields you from people you'd rather not be exposed to. Elitist? Perhaps a bit, but for the people who care it will become the norm, not the exception.

We are also bringing on more moderators though despite their best efforts, that alone isn't going to be the savior for our forums. We are also going to be implementing stricter restrictions for forum use, as we see it as a privelege, not a right. There may very well end up being a new forum that can't even be accessed by some people and perhaps even the ability to only see posts by people you want to. We are discussing a variety of options, all aimed at ultimatley improving the user experience here.

For now we mostly enjoy Bungie.net, despite it's usual negative outpooring. True, it's not always fun to hang out in the forums, but when meaningful posts like this one appear it makes it worthwhile. We know we've grown, and to some extent it's happened faster than we were prepared to handle. Ultimately our priority is always going to be making great games and telling great stories but we'll continue to offer a portal into our world as long as there are people interested in stopping by. Unfortunately since we don't have a huge team of dedicated people working on Bungie.net it takes us longer than we'd like to implement these new features and react to fan suggestions. We are working though and we are listening.. heck, maybe by the time we get things really cleaned up most of the jerks will be bored and will have moved on... we can only hope. Well, until we announce our next game, then everyone can come back and tell us how terrible every aspect of it is. : )

  • 08.18.2005 5:26 PM PDT

- Mike

You say the webteam is small, why not look for hiring new employees so the new features will come out soon and there will be lesser of a load on you?

  • 08.18.2005 5:43 PM PDT
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Posted by: SketchFactor
We are working on several ways to hopefully improve the situation here and make it more enjoyable for the people who want to be here. The rumored "karma system" is being spec'd out and if it comes to fruition will bring a system that rewards positive contributors and shields you from people you'd rather not be exposed to. Elitist? Perhaps a bit, but for the people who care it will become the norm, not the exception.


Really? That's actually pretty good. I really want a karma/mod point system get on Bnet. SketchFactor, please... make that happen.
:-)


[Edited on 8/18/2005]

  • 08.18.2005 5:47 PM PDT
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These forums are to small and in too much of a mess

[Edited on 8/18/2005]

  • 08.18.2005 5:50 PM PDT

I'll be on my own side.

Good ideas Sketch. Karma would be nice, as well as exclusive forums. It may be elitist, but then again, the only people who would balk would be the people we would'nt want here anyways. The people who would like it would be the intelligent part of our community. It should all pan out.

If you need anyone to help out with the site, I've got lots of free time. I'd be happy to help out this site, with moderating, checking cheater emails, whatever. I've been here close to two years, I'm not leaving it now!

[Edited on 8/18/2005]

  • 08.18.2005 6:07 PM PDT
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The Karma system would be great for the forums although i think for the best of it, only the Moderators should have the power to give them to members, and once pass a certain number of points that member should the power to give karma points. If you give them to just every member, the system will undoubtedly be abused and crumble.

  • 08.18.2005 6:25 PM PDT
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Posted by: SketchFactor
We do it because we always have and even through all the spammers and haters and jerks there are some people who do enjoy meeting new people and sharing common experiences and learning more about our studio. Admittedly, this is becoming less common now as the sheer volume of negativity has officially far outweighed the positives.


I don't think the number of positive people has decreased - the percentage definetly has, but if anything that number has gone up. If that's what you said then great.

Also, I would just like to emphasize the point that Psyched made about the community failing without the input and devotion of the community members. This is the most important topic on our hands, and this is what will pull us back from where we are now.

  • 08.18.2005 6:40 PM PDT

Tom Achronos
Bungie.net Overlord
twitter: http://twitter.com/Achronos

"I have no words that would do justice to the atrocities you commit to the English language, as well as your continued assaults on the concepts of basic literacy and logical reasoning."

No. You suggest make the place more "corporate." There is an easy way to do that. We shut this place down and you guys go to xbox.com's Halo 2 forums. See, not that hard, right?

No - what you propose is way more extreme when there are other solutions that are available. You aren't really attempting to solve the problem, you simply want to sidestep it. That's not very creative. Think about the problem for a while. You sound like the battle is lost. It isn't. Not by a long shot.

Spam can be controlled. We have various measures coming online to strengthen it. Offtopic stuff always exists, so merging forums or the like doesn't really help. Getting rid of the Septagon is stupid - it is one of the better forums.

And I have no intention of ruling this place with an iron fist (more than I already do, anyway). This community will change and evolve based on the members in it. I'll make you a deal - we'll continue to work at refining the features on this site (not just game features, but community stuff as well), but you guys have to do your part. We don't create the community, we just maintain the place where you meet. It is up to you guys to shape it.

Posted by: CinderSkip
It is too late to return. It's too big. I also believe the moderators do a good job, but there are too few of them, they are not on all the time and they are not given the ability to give actual answers.

The Flood is not the problem. It fact it is relatively well behaived. Because folks don'tget much satisfaction from attacking The Flood.

I am saying keep private groups. Let folks moderate themselves there. Make no pretense that Bungie will control those.
Remove all none game related forums. That includes The Sept. Remove the Love Bungie for Just Being Bungie side ofthe website (which I do Love Bungie for Just being Bungie). Tighten the other forums. Combine Zanzibar and Optimatch. And the rule the place wioth an iron fist and make no bones about it. It would be for Bungie support or nothing. Allow a suggestion box that is private but don't open it to discussion. Folks want to discuss it, they can do it in private groups. Occasionally open a Topic ("Should we have Such and Such Playlist") but them moderate the topic HEAVILY.

  • 08.18.2005 6:52 PM PDT

Tom Achronos
Bungie.net Overlord
twitter: http://twitter.com/Achronos

"I have no words that would do justice to the atrocities you commit to the English language, as well as your continued assaults on the concepts of basic literacy and logical reasoning."

Argh...

This isn't a support site. I think you say that, but you don't seem to understand that. We are the developer of the Halo games, but we are not the publisher. The publisher handles game support. We don't have a support department at all.

Support is already at xbox.com, 1800-4MyXbox, and more importantly, support.microsoft.com has specific phone numbers to call for support. There are guys there trained to support our products.

Bungie.net will NEVER be a support site - it will always be a news and community site. Again, I think you're trying to make it something its not. Microsoft already has lots of faceless, empty, corporate web sites for its games (xbox.com, support.microsoft.com). We don't want to be that. Our goal is to be a community site that brings to the table stuff fan-run community sites can't due to the fact that this is our site and we made the game!

Posted by: CinderSkip
Posted by: Psyched
While your points have merit, there's a limit to what Achronos can do.

This is my point. The current system is beyond saving and will continue to get worse.

Answers often go days without being answered and erupt into hate filled flame wars that end in a moderator say, "Enough is enough," and locking it.

There is middle ground being walked right now and you can tell that it is getting to the moderators because they can't keep up. And when they do act, the all react so diiferently. And moderators have been contricting other moderators.

What I am saying is that Bungie doesn't need a community forum any more. Others can make community forums. The need a product support site.

I realize how much folks would hate this, but in lots of ways the forums are causing more ill will then good (spend a day in Zanzibar or Optimatch). But, as the topic says, I think they;ve outgrown the small town and can't go back.

  • 08.18.2005 6:58 PM PDT
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^^ Well, that just says it all.

  • 08.18.2005 7:02 PM PDT

Tom Achronos
Bungie.net Overlord
twitter: http://twitter.com/Achronos

"I have no words that would do justice to the atrocities you commit to the English language, as well as your continued assaults on the concepts of basic literacy and logical reasoning."

You also have to remember that we completely changed the infrastructure of bungie.net in April 2004. While we thought that was enough time to mature, it didn't count on the fact that the jerks would come mostly after Halo 2 launched. So, the site is still maturing. The game hasn't even been out a year yet. I think people are quitting on this place way too easily. There are a lot worse places on the net. Go read the Penny Arcade forums for a while. :)

Posted by: Gnome
Bungie.net Is (albeit slowly) Improving since the halo 2 boom. The boom came at the forums in one big clump of spamers and morons and a few good ones mixed in, but sense then the forums are moving back in the direction of what they were in the first place. When that happens hopefully the B.net team will then have more time on their hands to once again be all that they can be.

  • 08.18.2005 7:04 PM PDT
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IThis is not here.

Achronos you -blam!- rock!

  • 08.18.2005 7:09 PM PDT
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Posted by: Achronos
There are a lot worse places on the net. Go read the Penny Arcade forums for a while.


Hey! Wait, that's so unfai-

Forums=down

Elitist PA fans am cry.

  • 08.18.2005 7:10 PM PDT
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Posted by: Achronos
Go read the Penny Arcade forums for a while. :)


Hehe...that made me giggle.

  • 08.18.2005 7:10 PM PDT

I'll be on my own side.

Posted by: Vella

Elitist PA fans am cry.


PA fans am cry? is that some kind of inside joke im not aware of?

[Edited on 8/18/2005]

  • 08.18.2005 7:37 PM PDT
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Sigh.

I apparently am being incredibly unclear.

I do realize that it is not a customer support site. I understand that you have no intent to make it one. I think that is perhaps a mistake. Many of the users who come here are looking for that and you offer it.. part way. And then get upset when people get upset that they aren't getting customer support.

But let's leave that aside. Let us talk about the community. I fully undrestand that it will be user created, but that is the problem isn't it. With the amount of traffic you get now, the sense of community and unity that would would allow that the happen in the majority of forums.

Believe me, Achronos, I have tried. I have given smart, correct answers when I knew them. i have ingored spam and reported it only to have it fill up the forum for hours. I have watched countless of anti-american, anti-british, anti-everything threads fill up the forums and you can ignore it. I have seen wonderouly, humorous non-negative in any way threads get shut down because someone has decide to have a bump fest in them. I have seen threads locked with no explaination and then a week later watch an almost identical threads florish. When you have to make dictums on whole playlist types that must not be discussed, only to cause more discussion on WHY they can't be discussed. It may be user created but what happens if what the users create is entire unpleasant?

This is the best community oriented video game company run forum out there. I am not comparing it to others. But when those who care about it find there only answer is to hide in there chapters or here, what does that say? When the feeling is so hostileelse where and whenver one tries to bring levity or intelligence there, they feel it is either destroyed by the mob, totally ignored or possibly deleted or locked or moved in the rae case that someone shows up.

If the community is going to be user created, if you feel that you should take a hands off approach, then do. Come in only when it is spam or hate speach or pornographic or illegal. Let the rest of it take its toll. Let conversations wend their crazy way off topic allowing them to come back again. Allow the borderline topics. Move off topic to the flood.

I really appreciate the huge amount of work that went in and continues to go in here. I trully hope it ends up in a good place. I hope it finds it's tone and is allowed to change when time warrents. I worry aboutthe image that is being presentedto outside world. Halo 2 might be remembered for part of the cornerstone of games that not only made online gaming incredible accessible but also ushered it fully into mainstream culture. When games a start to be truelly recognized as media in the lines of literature and film. It is in the place comics were 15 years ago. Halo 2 might be remembered like The Drak Knight Returns and The Watchmen (we have yet to see Maus... although I fear GTA may take that spot). Or Hao 2 might be remembered as cultural blip that decended into name calling and such.

Yes, I am being overdramatic. It will not overly affect either Bungie's image or bottom line. But the amount of resources and energy and talent that are being put into it... I worry that the very scale of it will make it undoable.

Prove me an idiot. I trully hope you do.

  • 08.18.2005 7:43 PM PDT
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Posted by: Nedus
Posted by: Vella

Elitist PA fans am cry.


PA fans am cry? is that some kind of inside joke im not aware of?


Not really, it's just an internet joke. Like say, OMGWTFBBQ.

  • 08.18.2005 7:51 PM PDT

I found this to be kinda cute. [image]

  • 08.18.2005 7:53 PM PDT