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  • Subject: Another Bungie.net Feedback Opportunity...
Subject: Another Bungie.net Feedback Opportunity...
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Posted by: Anton P Nym
One trend I've noticed in the feedback here that I don't agree with is making privileges dependant upon post-count. Raw number of posts means very little... in fact, I'm starting to think that high post-count should be PENALISED and not rewarded. Spamming and flooding are both prime causes for post-count inflation.

If you're going to do graduated privileges for the board here, base it upon calendar elapsed time (to encourage people to keep the same ID) or by moderator/admin feedback (to keep biases and electioneering to a minimum) or you'll end up encouraging the same bad behaviour that we're trying to stop.

Of course, if you do post rate analysis (posts/hr or posts/min) and generate an automatic break on excessive posting rate for a user then you might be able to use raw post count as a measure of participation... but not if you don't. And I don't much care for the idea even if you do compensate for spamming.

-- Steve notes it's not the size of your post count, but what you do with it that's important.


Consider - if you get extra benefits because you've been here longer, that doesn't reward the more active members of the community. If there's a guy who's been here since 2001 but (somehow) HASN'T reached the required post count, then I'd say he's not an active enough member of the community to be rewarded. Who cares what the guy looks like if he only posts once a month?

I realize you're defending yourself because you don't post frequently, but be realistic.

Edit: Also, if there's going to be a way to improve one's standing it needs to be automatic. There will simply be too much traffic for mods to EVER justly give out kudos.

Edit2: Actually, maybe we could work in a recommendation system? Let the mods or Bungie staff flag certain posters are responsible, active community guys, then they're able to say "Yeah, this guy's a really good poster" and bypass the post-count requirement for people such as yourself who posts' are very meaningful, but who doesn't post frequently.

[Edited on 8/8/2004 8:23:03 PM]

  • 08.08.2004 8:06 PM PDT

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Well - the way I suggested didn't exactly reward multiple posts. It rewards each positive post with a smal increment of your "trust level" if you will. And a heavy penalty on your trust level for spammed and superfluous posts. But I think that you've got a great point with the calendar idea. If you're going to do graduated privileges for the board here, base it upon calendar elapsed time (to encourage people to keep the same ID) or by moderator/admin feedback (to keep biases and electioneering to a minimum) or you'll end up encouraging the same bad behaviour that we're trying to stop. Maybe you could add a number of points to their trust level based on a Month with no infractions?

  • 08.08.2004 8:09 PM PDT
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Edit: Nevermind, my 2nd edit is a bad idea. Too hard to moderate, I think.

If only the mods were addict posters and posted more often, the "happy flagging" idea might work.

  • 08.08.2004 8:27 PM PDT
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Posted by: impurity
However the amounts of karma are determined to start with I'm not sure but I have an idea. Once members get to a certain point, whether its time or posts or whatever, they get the privlege to give karma points. And take them I guess too.

Like once they get to a trusted status they get the privs. Then new members have something to work for and don't piss off their peers. The people with less karma have stupid restrictions normal new members wouldn't have. I don't know.
What if it was once the member got enough karma they can give/take karma from others. It might start off slow, but once the ball gets rolling...I dislike the idea of letting every member give or take karma, mainly because there are too many ways to abuse that.

Prehaps the system could be set up so that anytime a member's karma gets too low (I'm assuming members don't start at the bottom) they get banned, maybe subject to the review of a mod or something.

  • 08.08.2004 9:23 PM PDT
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Karma and things like custom avatars and titles should really not be governed by the same system, in my opinion(ie; once one reaches a certain karma level they automatically earn the right to receive such benefeits).

Instead, as suggested, karma is simply a way to determine a user's behavior and activity level so people will be able to determine how trustworthy you are. Karma gain/loss would be determined by doing things already mentioned (such as linking GTs). My thought is that one would gain a single karma point a day for posting. A karma loss of 1-5 for minor infractions, a larger loss for more serious problems.

Some people assume that member privilages (custom titles, etc.) would be tied to karma gain. Rather, that would be left up to Bungie's (Sketch, Frankie, Achronos) discression. They, being human, won't be fooled by a spammer's attempts to "work the system" and only give those out to people that they know they can trust.
They wouldn't have to give them out to anyone if they were so inclined. Just a fun bonus for people who they think deserve it. Even those with low karma could get these benefeits if Bungie felt they deserved it.

I don't see any problems in that. At least, no more than we have right now.

  • 08.08.2004 9:40 PM PDT

bah

I like the karma thing as long as people here before the new hotness get full karma (or just full privs). Let their actions from there determine if it goes up or down.

  • 08.08.2004 9:44 PM PDT

Veteran member of The Frozen Minority.

This idear's pretty good. But really, shouldn't we be showing this idea to people in the New Mombasa forums? That's were most of the, *ahem*, idiots are really. I also agree with Rip on the, if you were a member before the new hotness thing, I mean, most of us who post at the Septagon has been here well before the new hottness. We've seen people come and go, and lately what I've seen come, I personally don't like. Mind you not everyone, but just the people who spam and, well, talk about the damn bees 24/7. What I have to say about all of this, is that if the employees think's it'll be a good idear, then I guess we do as well. I've said this a coons age ago, but I wish there was a system that we can track down all of the spammers and take their Halo2 privilages away. Ah, look at me I'm babbling again. Ah!
So, Sketch, what do YOU think about this??

  • 08.08.2004 10:02 PM PDT
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Some people assume that member privilages (custom titles, etc.) would be tied to karma gain. Rather, that would be left up to Bungie's (Sketch, Frankie, Achronos) discression. They, being human, won't be fooled by a spammer's attempts to "work the system" and only give those out to people that they know they can trust.
They wouldn't have to give them out to anyone if they were so inclined. Just a fun bonus for people who they think deserve it. Even those with low karma could get these benefeits if Bungie felt they deserved it.


That's cool, but neither bungie staff nor the mods have the time to do something like that. It would work best if system privs were automated. If we had to do it by hand then there would be far less users with cool privs -- such as new avatars -- we'd essentially create a small elite group of forum goers who believe they're superior in some silly way. I really want avoid that type of thing. We just don't have the time to assign member privs by hand.

Yea a couple of devious forum users could figure out a way to trick the system, but bungie or mods could easily fix the problem and wipe the jerks karma back down to zero.

I would also like to note that custom avatars will never be handed out to anyone other than the mods or bungie staff members. Even with the karma system in place...it's just too tricky and each avatar would have to be approved by bungie. No one has time for that.

[Edited on 8/9/2004 2:57:06 AM]

  • 08.09.2004 2:51 AM PDT

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Posted by: ObbiQuiet
Consider - if you get extra benefits because you've been here longer, that doesn't reward the more active members of the community. If there's a guy who's been here since 2001 but (somehow) HASN'T reached the required post count, then I'd say he's not an active enough member of the community to be rewarded. Who cares what the guy looks like if he only posts once a month?

Okay, slightly poor phrasing in my earlier post. I'd meant that basing rewards solely on post count will tend to reward bad actors.

However, I think (and this is opinion, not position, so take it for what it's worth) that I'd prefer to reward someone who posts one absolutely brilliant idea once a month than a yammerer who posts ten dollops of drivel a day. Quantity does NOT have a quality of its own on a forum.

I realize you're defending yourself because you don't post frequently, but be realistic.
Actually, my proposal hoses me too... check my join date. People assume I'm an Elder Fan, but I only joined last April. It's just that I did my homework. Newer fans out there, take the hint!

(By the way, Obbi, you never did return my last couple of PMs. Your Mom and I were getting worried.)

Edit: Also, if there's going to be a way to improve one's standing it needs to be automatic. There will simply be too much traffic for mods to EVER justly give out kudos.
Yeah, doing it solely by moderator input would be too much work as well. It does need to be semi-automated at least.

If I'm going to boil this down to one point, it would be that there should be no one criterion that determines advancement in privileges here; any system that rewards interaction needs to look at level and quality of participation, and needs to be adaptable when the "hard-and-fast" rules start rendering out absurd results. That means human intervention.

At work I'm a quality analyst for a call centre. I know how hard it is to make universal rules to apply to all situations.... that's why I haven't been automated out of a job yet! So we need to make sure that the system is flexible enough to take the "one-offs" into account.

-- Steve wants to make sure that we don't get too hung up looking at trees here, when it's the forest we're trying to keep tidy.

  • 08.09.2004 7:13 AM PDT
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Posted by: Anton P Nym
(By the way, Obbi, you never did return my last couple of PMs. Your Mom and I were getting worried.)

Dink!

Other than that, others have already expressed all my ideas and concerns. I hate coming in late to a good conversation :-\

  • 08.09.2004 10:05 AM PDT

Tom Achronos
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Posted by: ajenteks
Posted by: impurity

I think the karma system would work if it was only maintained by Bungie and mods though.


Then it's too easy for people to accuse the mods and Bungie staff of playing favorites, or to claim that the mods and staff are out to get them.


That's easy to solve:

1. We don't care. People accuse us of that now. Since it never has been true and never will be, we just ignore those foolish people.
2. The system would not be us deciding what posts are good. It would look at actions. Like, if your thread gets pinned, or if you get blacklisted, etc.
3. We are, in fact, out to get people. Spammers in particular. We're gunning for them. <g>

  • 08.09.2004 10:58 AM PDT

Tom Achronos
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"I have no words that would do justice to the atrocities you commit to the English language, as well as your continued assaults on the concepts of basic literacy and logical reasoning."

Posted by: Recon Number 54
These are only (of course) my thoughts. They carry little weight in my world, and (I would imagine) even less in Bungie's. I like the idea of a karma system, with privileges that develop as a person demonstrates their ability to be trusted.

However, I do not know how much I would participate in something that required me to demonstrate repeatedly that I was trustworthy. I am an adult and if I am in a place where I am going to be treated as a child, I tend to move along to somewhere I can be treated appropiately for who and what I am. It's why I like the idea of giving people the tools themselves and then dealing appropriately with those who insist on abusing the opportunity they have been given to voice their views.


Don't sell yourself short. The reason this thread was started was for exactly this kind of discussion. As you guys use the system the most, asking for your opinions on how to improve it is natural to us.

As for the comment about "demonstrating trust", you misunderstand my karma system. My system's primary purpose is NOT for keeping out spammers. That would be a "symptom-fix". No, the purpose is to solve a fundamental problem with our account system - that your identity is not valuable. In Xbox Live, your Gamertag is valuable - your identity and stats are connected to it. On bungie.net, you have nothing.

With the karma system, I'm attempting to make it attractive to not just discard one's account, to give our long time members and our newer, active members rewards for being "good members". It isn't about demonstrating trust - it is about receving rewards for being trustworthy - positive reinforcement. Better avatars, titles, maybe the ability to lock your own threads... etc. It just has the side effect of making those dummy accounts easier to spot and it makes it more painful if you get blacklisted.

  • 08.09.2004 11:11 AM PDT
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Posted by: Achronos

That's easy to solve:

1. We don't care.


As long as you've got that attitude, you can do anything, and you've got my full support (for what it's worth) :)

  • 08.09.2004 11:23 AM PDT

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Posted by: Recon Number 54
I'm quite impressed that even though there are a wide variety of suggestions and even disagreement on the merits of some, that the discussion has not once gotten nasty or personal. Well, except for Steve's mention of Obbi's mom.... Whew! I have definitely GOT to remember that one! Do you want a licensing fee if I ever use it? Or would a copyright disclaimer suffice?

LOL! Since I stole the reference, uncredited, from a variety of archeo-fan sources going back to the Marathon pre-release days I'm assuming that it's public domain. (Hmm... open-source cheap shots. There's an idea... I wonder if Red Hat is interested in distribution?) No disclaimer or fee required. All contributions cheerfully accepted, of course.

More seriously, I too am impressed that we could debate this in a rational and mature fashion. Refreshing, isn't it, to discuss the ideas here on their merits and to openly seek the benefits and faults of each? It's a shame that many of the other forums can't do this... a sign that something like Achronos' karma system is indeed needed.

With the apparent thought and planning that is going into Phase 2 of the New Hotness, I will now do my best to stop -blam!-ing, sit back and wait like a good little boy. Just like for my pre-ordered limited edition.
Any criticism on my part was strictly to point out hazards and potential faults... frankly, I'm flattered that we were even consulted on something like this. In the end I trust that the board admins will find a good middle course after all the feedback here (and elsewhere, I presume) and analysis of trends noticed over the past couple of months on the boards.

Running these forums can't be easy; caring about the results has got to lead to a middling portion of grief. That we get this level of participation in Bungie fan activities is a measure of just how much they appreciate us, and for that I'm thankful. It's part of what converted me from a Halo fan to a Bungie fan.

Thanks, guys.

-- Steve's gotta stop now before he gets all maudlin, or starts fussing and whining for his shiny metal H2 box.

  • 08.10.2004 5:58 AM PDT
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Posted by: ObbiQuiet
Consider - if you get extra benefits because you've been here longer, that doesn't reward the more active members of the community. If there's a guy who's been here since 2001 but (somehow) HASN'T reached the required post count, then I'd say he's not an active enough member of the community to be rewarded. Who cares what the guy looks like if he only posts once a month?

I realize you're defending yourself because you don't post frequently, but be realistic.

Edit: Also, if there's going to be a way to improve one's standing it needs to be automatic. There will simply be too much traffic for mods to EVER justly give out kudos.

Edit2: Actually, maybe we could work in a recommendation system? Let the mods or Bungie staff flag certain posters are responsible, active community guys, then they're able to say "Yeah, this guy's a really good poster" and bypass the post-count requirement for people such as yourself who posts' are very meaningful, but who doesn't post frequently.


Why does x number posts counts as activity, why does "being a veteran" grant you power, as "Steve" perfectly said, it is not the count which matters but whats inside, how cheap it might sound to you.I think you should keep all members equal, no post counter, and no privileges(Though what i am saying now is in fight with a prev. post of mine :P)

Posted by: Achronos

Don't sell yourself short. The reason this thread was started was for exactly this kind of discussion. As you guys use the system the most, asking for your opinions on how to improve it is natural to us.

As for the comment about "demonstrating trust", you misunderstand my karma system. My system's primary purpose is NOT for keeping out spammers. That would be a "symptom-fix". No, the purpose is to solve a fundamental problem with our account system - that your identity is not valuable. In Xbox Live, your Gamertag is valuable - your identity and stats are connected to it. On bungie.net, you have nothing.

With the karma system, I'm attempting to make it attractive to not just discard one's account, to give our long time members and our newer, active members rewards for being "good members". It isn't about demonstrating trust - it is about receving rewards for being trustworthy - positive reinforcement. Better avatars, titles, maybe the ability to lock your own threads... etc. It just has the side effect of making those dummy accounts easier to spot and it makes it more painful if you get blacklisted.


Though note that granting such powers must be done very carefully, and not been based upon number of posts, nor his/her activity(though those two relate much).I think these powers/privileges must be a bit rare, or atleast have a good based reason for granting them. For reasons to do so, the feedback of the moderators will be usefull. Other ways are for me (at this moment) less effective.

-ApoX-

[Edited on 8/10/2004 3:19:40 PM]

  • 08.10.2004 3:12 PM PDT
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Sounds Awsome!!!

  • 08.10.2004 6:15 PM PDT
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Crimson Clover

[color=crimson]I think that after a few posts it's pretty easy to see who's a spammer and who isn't.[/color]

  • 08.10.2004 6:18 PM PDT
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We could actually have several levels of interaction, that people will "earn" as they use the site and obey the rules. The better user you are, the more abilities you have.

That would be a very good idea but only if us older veteran forum users don't have to start on the very lowest level. Like our time we already have would be worth somthin.

  • 08.11.2004 5:40 PM PDT
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Sounds like a good idea to me...
I know I've just recently started using the forums, made a few boo-boos, but now I know better. There is a dire need to cut down on Spam, though.

  • 08.12.2004 1:05 PM PDT
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Some of the ideas are great but a problem with a limit o posts per ay or ime between posts is that in certain threas(LASER WARS!) people have to post after each other is kind of needed.Another thing I think that would stop spammers would be a limit of names per address,some spammers have up to 10 names or more.anyway these are just ideas and I thought I might add this incase it wasn't thought of.

  • 08.12.2004 6:39 PM PDT
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I have one question (sorry if this has been asked before.) Is all banning based solely on user login? I mean, if dupe accounts are a problem, then why not just ban the IP?

  • 08.12.2004 7:59 PM PDT
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Posted by: hangbrain
I have one question (sorry if this has been asked before.) Is all banning based solely on user login? I mean, if dupe accounts are a problem, then why not just ban the IP?


Well, if they have broadband (Static IP) they can manually change the IP address, and if they use dial-up the IP address changes everytime they sign on (Dynamic IP).

  • 08.12.2004 8:04 PM PDT
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**Hangbrain suddenly feels like a dumbass**

  • 08.12.2004 8:08 PM PDT