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Subject: Team SWAT - flawed?

On hiding dead bodies:
Posted by: Psuedo
Posted by: teh Chaz
Inside another dead body. It's the last place they'll look
A corpse within a corpse.
CORPSEPTION.
Win.

This was originally in Optimatch, but no-one seemed interested.

I've recently taken to Team SWAT on Halo 3, to improve my highest skill, since I can't compete in FFA gametypes anymore.
IMO it's a fantastic gamemode. The lack of shields and the ever-present capability for a one-shot-headshot with any weapon makes the gameplay fast, frenzied and brutal.

However, there are some flaws.

Elite player modelsIn regular gamemodes, where it can take upwards of 5 BR bursts to kill a player, the difference between Elite and SPARTAN player models is irrelevant. In SWAT, however, I feel those who play as elites have an unfair advantage.
Head:
Their head is basically where their chest is, due to a neck that is constantly bowed forward. Not only does this make headshotting harder in the first place, but it also means, unlike a SPARTAN it is impossible to headshot an Elite from behind unless you are above them - otherwise, you just shoot them in the back. Their generally tall stature also means radically different hitboxes to other player. If everyone played as an Elite, or it was an SvE gametype, then it wouldn't be an issue - every player would have to aim at the same point, making the game more balanced.
It is also incredibly difficult to headshot an elite from the side due to their long and hunched neck - so the only place to headshot an elite from is ideally when facing them, on the same level which exposes your player to all kinds of enemy fire from your target. A SPARTAN can be headshotted from any angle and any side, making the ability to play as an Elite incredibly imbalanced.
As such, Elites are bizarrely harder to kill - people in the Halo 3 forum have actually admitted to playing as an Elite only in SWAT gametypes because they think it gives them an edge, in being harder to kill.
Take the choice to play as Elites out of SWAT, they imbalance it too far.

Bodyshots versus HeadshotsHeadshots are the nom de jour of SWAT - one shot to the head with any weapon, boom, goodnight sweet dixie.
We have no shields, so why can is still take upwards of 5, 6 or 7 bursts to the chest with a BR, when it is an OSK for a headshot? It makes the game highly unbalanced, especially versus Elite players for the reason above - miss by an inch, and pay the price by being OSK headshotted, when you've already put three or four bursts into their chests.
Three bursts into nothing but armour plate is ridiculous when one burst to the head is instant death - body shots should be no more than 3. It's possible to plant 6 bursts either into someone's spine or the base of their neck before they die, regardless of player model.

Carbine overpowered?The Carbine - generally underrated in regular gametypes, in SWAT it becomes a power weapon. IMO, it is far overpowered compared to the BR and massively overpowered to the magnum. It has a very high rate of fire, and one shot from a Carbine is roughly equivalent to a BR burst, so can kill much faster. I would always ditch my magnum for a carbine, since it can fire close to twice as fast as a BR and do the same damage.
As a side note: Weapon Lag - yes, it needs to be semi-realistic, but when it can take over half a second for my rounds to hit someone 30 feet away, it puts me at a disadvantage. Is this lag from the network, or does hitscan really take that long to run?

Level choicesMaps that have wide open spaces, or are designed around a central structure are imbalanced in gamemodes where every burst has the potential to be an OSK. On a map like Heretic, if the four players of one team camp in each of the four corners of the upper walkway around the map, then they can spawncamp any spawning players on the other team. There is also the possibility of being OSK'd from across the map by a lucky kill - not so much of a problem in maps like Blackout and Snowbound where there is lots of cover and enclosed spaces and corridors, but Heretic has too little cover.

In the Halo Reach Beta, Powerhouse was a terrible SWAT map as it was easy for the enemy team to take the high ground and OSK spawn camp, but Sword Base was for more balanced for its cover, walkways and tight spaces.

Diversity of GametypeTeam SWAT has 5 game modes (that I have seen):
Team SWAT, regular 4v4 TDM with no shields, and BR/magnum starts
Team SWATball, Team Oddball with the SWAT twist
SWAT Magnums, Team SWAT with only Magnums on the map and magnum starts
Team ShWATguns, Team SWAT with only shotgun spawns/starts
SWAT 2 Flag, 2 Flag with the SWAT twist
(Not sure, but has there been SWAT swords? I can't see the point if there is nor can I remember)

Not only is regular Team SWAT far too common, but with the exception of ShWATguns and Magnums, the gametypes aren't diverse enough.
It needs more gametypes and those other gametypes need to be far more frequent, to stop it getting stale.

Potential examples:
SWAT Snipers (speaks for itself)
AutoSWATics - SWAT with only SMG and AR spawns, for super-fast combat. No spawn waiting and 100 kill limit?
AsSWAlT (maybe not with that name) - OSK BR Assault.
SWAT Bareback - No weapon spawns, only grenades and melee. Doubt that would be popular.

  • 09.03.2010 3:55 AM PDT

fear me, for i am pro sauce

i cant beleive you wasted your time typing that.

Posted by: JDYeash937 MkII
The lack of shields and the ever-present capability for a one-shot-headshot with any weapon makes the gameplay fast, frenzied and brutal.


swat games are not fast or brutal and there is only the slightest chance of acctually killing someone in one shot.



  • 09.03.2010 4:20 AM PDT
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Posted by: JDYeash937 MkII
Elite player modelsIn regular gamemodes, where it can take upwards of 5 BR bursts to kill a player, the difference between Elite and SPARTAN player models is irrelevant. In SWAT, however, I feel those who play as elites have an unfair advantage.
Head:
Their head is basically where their chest is, due to a neck that is constantly bowed forward. Not only does this make headshotting harder in the first place, but it also means, unlike a SPARTAN it is impossible to headshot an Elite from behind unless you are above them - otherwise, you just shoot them in the back. Their generally tall stature also means radically different hitboxes to other player. If everyone played as an Elite, or it was an SvE gametype, then it wouldn't be an issue - every player would have to aim at the same point, making the game more balanced.
It is also incredibly difficult to headshot an elite from the side due to their long and hunched neck - so the only place to headshot an elite from is ideally when facing them, on the same level which exposes your player to all kinds of enemy fire from your target. A SPARTAN can be headshotted from any angle and any side, making the ability to play as an Elite incredibly imbalanced.
As such, Elites are bizarrely harder to kill - people in the Halo 3 forum have actually admitted to playing as an Elite only in SWAT gametypes because they think it gives them an edge, in being harder to kill.
Take the choice to play as Elites out of SWAT, they imbalance it too far.

Elites aren't harder to kill. You're just bad.

  • 09.03.2010 4:22 AM PDT

On hiding dead bodies:
Posted by: Psuedo
Posted by: teh Chaz
Inside another dead body. It's the last place they'll look
A corpse within a corpse.
CORPSEPTION.
Win.


Posted by: SUPER MOOSE93
i cant beleive you wasted your time typing that.

Posted by: JDYeash937 MkII
The lack of shields and the ever-present capability for a one-shot-headshot with any weapon makes the gameplay fast, frenzied and brutal.


swat games are not fast or brutal and there is only the slightest chance of acctually killing someone in one shot.



You clearly don't play SWAT. I've played nothing but over the last 3 or 4 days, and probably 80% + of all kills made by anyone in the game have been OSK.

Posted by: ieatkittenz1112
Elites aren't harder to kill. You're just bad.
Elites can't be headshotted from behind unless from above, and it's difficult to headshot from the side. a SPARTAN can be headshotted from any angle and any direction. Elites are harder to kill, especially when they can only easily be OSK'd from in front, and especially when it's easier to headshot a SPARTAN, and especially when it takes OSK to the head, yet still 4 or 5 bursts for a body shot kill, even in the neck, back and chest.

You've both just made me repeat the OP, which is based off of 4 days of playing nothing but SWAT.

[Edited on 09.03.2010 4:27 AM PDT]

  • 09.03.2010 4:24 AM PDT

If your never sure if a post has sarcasm or not, my posts are cooked in pot of sarcasm, has sarcastic filling added to it, and then has lots of little sarcastic sprinkles put on top.

Nothing wrong with Team SWAT.
Elites have exactly the same hitboxes that a Spartan does, its more of a psychological thing than anything else. Ive headshotted plenty of elites in the back of the head without jumping.
The fact that its a headshot only gametype should point to the fact that shooting people in the chest is completely pointless. Every game is set so only a headshot, even in ShWATguns will get you a kill.

[Edited on 09.03.2010 4:29 AM PDT]

  • 09.03.2010 4:27 AM PDT
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OK, first of all, if you don't like the fact that elites eat bullets and spartans don't, just play as a elite, we all know that the hitboxes aren't the best but it cannot and will not be changed.

Swat is about getting headshots, it is not unbalanced that 4-5 body shots dousn't kill, thats not the whole point of swat!

There is a variety of maps for a reason, all require different play styles therefor increasing the skill gap. And getting spawn trapped only shows that the opposing team are more skilled and have better communication than yours.
Dont like it? Then get better.

The carbine being a power weapon is the most rubbish i've ever heard, it takes one bullet of a BR to kill to the head, not a whole burst. Therefor making the BR and Carbine compleatly balanced, END OF.

And finnaly the idea of the new game types is ubsurd, bungie made objective swat, and the other slayer varients extreemly rare because no one liked them and even when they come up they are vetoed immediatly. So no, it is not a good idea, it would be hated.

  • 09.03.2010 4:27 AM PDT

fear me, for i am pro sauce


Posted by: JDYeash937 MkII

Posted by: SUPER MOOSE93
i cant beleive you wasted your time typing that.

Posted by: JDYeash937 MkII
The lack of shields and the ever-present capability for a one-shot-headshot with any weapon makes the gameplay fast, frenzied and brutal.


swat games are not fast or brutal and there is only the slightest chance of acctually killing someone in one shot.



You clearly don't play SWAT. I've played nothing but over the last 3 or 4 days, and probably 80% + of all kills made by anyone in the game have been OSK.


i dont play SWAT yet i have a 34 in it? all the swat games i play are crap, they are too slow, no real action.

  • 09.03.2010 4:27 AM PDT

Elites and Spartans have the same hitbox apparently. So that argument is invalid.
If not that, then it's completely invalid by the fact that (Protip:) you can be an Elite too. There's no unfair advantage if you can do it too. Not to mention Bungie already said that 'taking out the option' will NEVER happen.
:/

You can take a few bodyshots because while you have no shields, you do have increased health. This is to encourage aiming and... well, headshots. That's the POINT of SWAT- not something that needs to be 'fixed.'

The carbine one is just silly so I'll move on. Well, the map one I have no comment on either.

'SWAT Snipers' you want? What the heck is that? Is that just Team Snipers with no radar or something? That's pointless.
The others I don't care about.
Mmm.

  • 09.03.2010 4:29 AM PDT
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Posted by: JDYeash937 MkII

Posted by: SUPER MOOSE93
i cant beleive you wasted your time typing that.

Posted by: JDYeash937 MkII
The lack of shields and the ever-present capability for a one-shot-headshot with any weapon makes the gameplay fast, frenzied and brutal.


swat games are not fast or brutal and there is only the slightest chance of acctually killing someone in one shot.



You clearly don't play SWAT. I've played nothing but over the last 3 or 4 days, and probably 80% + of all kills made by anyone in the game have been OSK.

Posted by: ieatkittenz1112
Elites aren't harder to kill. You're just bad.
Elites can't be headshotted from behind unless from above, and it's difficult to headshot from the side. a SPARTAN can be headshotted from any angle and any direction. Elites are harder to kill, especially when they can only easily be OSK'd from in front, and especially when it's easier to headshot a SPARTAN, and especially when it takes OSK to the head, yet still 4 or 5 bursts for a body shot kill, even in the neck, back and chest.

You've both just made me repeat the OP, which is based off of 4 days of playing nothing but SWAT.


And in response to that -BLAM-, I have played swat for well over 3000 games and have had several 50 generals in it.
I think I know best, he is right, you are wrong!

  • 09.03.2010 4:30 AM PDT

Hey.


Posted by: SUPER MOOSE93
i cant beleive you wasted your time typing that.

Posted by: JDYeash937 MkII
The lack of shields and the ever-present capability for a one-shot-headshot with any weapon makes the gameplay fast, frenzied and brutal.


swat games are not fast or brutal and there is only the slightest chance of acctually killing someone in one shot.




Then you're doing it wrong.

  • 09.03.2010 4:31 AM PDT
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Honestly I except someone who can't get much over a 20 in swat to make these complaints. Also whats stopping you from playing as an elite as well? As clearly it is the superior character model in swat.

/sarcasm

  • 09.03.2010 4:34 AM PDT

fear me, for i am pro sauce


Posted by: Kit Airwave

Posted by: SUPER MOOSE93
i cant beleive you wasted your time typing that.

Posted by: JDYeash937 MkII
The lack of shields and the ever-present capability for a one-shot-headshot with any weapon makes the gameplay fast, frenzied and brutal.


swat games are not fast or brutal and there is only the slightest chance of acctually killing someone in one shot.




Then you're doing it wrong.


i do admit i dont have the best connection and i dont really like SWAT.

  • 09.03.2010 4:36 AM PDT

On hiding dead bodies:
Posted by: Psuedo
Posted by: teh Chaz
Inside another dead body. It's the last place they'll look
A corpse within a corpse.
CORPSEPTION.
Win.


Posted by: ieatkittenz1112
Honestly I except someone who can't get much over a 20 in swat to make these complaints. Also whats stopping you from playing as an elite as well? As clearly it is the superior character model in swat.

/sarcasm
I started playing 4 days ago, from a skill... 3? Since then, it's gone up and up. Highest so far is only 21, and I got that last night.

That's like saying as well "why don't you use OMA/DC tube" on MW2? I don't like being associated with something that clearly imbalances the game.

Did I at any point degenerate into something along the lines of "z0mgz i waz skill 45 but t3h no0bz brought it down 2 20, fix this nao bungee"? No I didn't. These are a few things I've noticed over the last few days, and some suggestions with them.

I want nothing more than the game to be as good as it can be. As for the new gametypes, I just feel that 20+ games of Team SWAT to every ShWATguns or Magnums is a bit overdone. As you can probably tell, I like the other game modes.

[Edited on 09.03.2010 4:42 AM PDT]

  • 09.03.2010 4:39 AM PDT
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Posted by: JDYeash937 MkII

Posted by: ieatkittenz1112
Honestly I except someone who can't get much over a 20 in swat to make these complaints. Also whats stopping you from playing as an elite as well? As clearly it is the superior character model in swat.

/sarcasm
I started playing 4 days ago, from a skill... 3? Since then, it's gone up and up. Highest so far is only 21, and I got that last night.

That's like saying as well "why don't you use OMA/DC tube" on MW2? I don't like being associated with something that clearly imbalances the game.

There are no inbalances in swat, you just to arrogent to see it.

  • 09.03.2010 4:41 AM PDT

Hey.


Posted by: SUPER MOOSE93

Posted by: Kit Airwave

Posted by: SUPER MOOSE93
i cant beleive you wasted your time typing that.

Posted by: JDYeash937 MkII
The lack of shields and the ever-present capability for a one-shot-headshot with any weapon makes the gameplay fast, frenzied and brutal.


swat games are not fast or brutal and there is only the slightest chance of acctually killing someone in one shot.




Then you're doing it wrong.


i do admit i dont have the best connection and i dont really like SWAT.

Maybe on a bad connection and on a map like rat's nest, things are slow and your shots don't count but, on a map like Heretic it's "go go go!" all game. Rounds usually aren't over 5 min long.

  • 09.03.2010 4:43 AM PDT
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Posted by: JDYeash937 MkII

Posted by: ieatkittenz1112
Honestly I except someone who can't get much over a 20 in swat to make these complaints. Also whats stopping you from playing as an elite as well? As clearly it is the superior character model in swat.

/sarcasm
I started playing 4 days ago, from a skill... 3? Since then, it's gone up and up. Highest so far is only 21, and I got that last night.

That's like saying as well "why don't you use OMA/DC tube" on MW2? I don't like being associated with something that clearly imbalances the game.

lolwut? That explains why I was able to get a swat 50 playing as a spartan, playing almost exclusively elites. Swat is a terrible playlist anyway, full of too many derankers.

  • 09.03.2010 4:44 AM PDT

The Spartan 1 Project, the biggest, best and most active group on Bnet.

SWAT is meant to be about accuracy and speed, you get rewarded for the headshot. Ergo, its fine as it is.

Posted by: JDYeash937 MkII
Elites can't be headshotted from behind unless from above, and it's difficult to headshot from the side.


I honestly can't tell if this is trolling or not. Harder to headshot from teh side when their heads stick out a country mile from their bodies?
Elites can be killed just as easy as spartans from any angle - from the side being the easiest as you can't get confused with what you're aiming at. If you're behind them, aim high.

i can agree on map choice, but that's an 'issue' with every playlist.

SWAT Snipers? Where a headshot is an instant kill?? Oh wait....





[Edited on 09.03.2010 4:51 AM PDT]

  • 09.03.2010 4:44 AM PDT

On hiding dead bodies:
Posted by: Psuedo
Posted by: teh Chaz
Inside another dead body. It's the last place they'll look
A corpse within a corpse.
CORPSEPTION.
Win.

I'm loving the fact that I'm getting called arrogant and a troll for noticing something that apparently no-one else does.

And how this has generally degenerated into a flamefest on me.

[Edited on 09.03.2010 4:47 AM PDT]

  • 09.03.2010 4:46 AM PDT

Hey.


Posted by: JDYeash937 MkII
I want nothing more than the game to be as good as it can be. As for the new gametypes, I just feel that 20+ games of Team SWAT to every ShWATguns or Magnums is a bit overdone. As you can probably tell, I like the other game modes.

You're by far the minority. Most SWAT players loathe anything but default swat; as do I. That's why the weighing is so low.

  • 09.03.2010 4:46 AM PDT

"You build on failure. You use it as a stepping stone. Close the door on the past. You don't try to forget the mistakes, but you don't dwell on it. You don't let it have any of your energy, or any of your time, or any of your space." -Johnny Cash

Team SWAT isn't flawed, it's just the way you play it. Yes, the elites can't be killed from behind as easy as the Spartans can, but they can still be killed. The headshots are all about SWAT, it wouldn't make since or feel right if we had to shoot them twice in the head. Carbines are not overpowered, and the maps are just fine. These are just my thoughts however.

  • 09.03.2010 4:54 AM PDT
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It is not fact what you are saying. What you have apparently noticed is something that isn't there, you are plain wrong.
It is quite pittifull that you think that you are correct.

  • 09.03.2010 4:55 AM PDT

Hey.


Posted by: JDYeash937 MkII
I'm loving the fact that I'm getting called arrogant and a troll for noticing something that apparently no-one else does.

And how this has generally degenerated into a flamefest on me.
It's fine that you have an opinion, but some of the info you presented is far from factual. It's hard to tell sometimes if players on these forums are just new and don't have a full understanding of the game/playlist, or are just trying to start some ruckus by making a semi-serious post like yours.

  • 09.03.2010 4:58 AM PDT

On hiding dead bodies:
Posted by: Psuedo
Posted by: teh Chaz
Inside another dead body. It's the last place they'll look
A corpse within a corpse.
CORPSEPTION.
Win.


Posted by: Kit Airwave

Posted by: JDYeash937 MkII
I'm loving the fact that I'm getting called arrogant and a troll for noticing something that apparently no-one else does.

And how this has generally degenerated into a flamefest on me.
It's fine that you have an opinion, but some of the info you presented is far from factual. It's hard to tell sometimes if players on these forums are just new and don't have a full understanding of the game/playlist, or are just trying to start some ruckus by making a semi-serious post like yours.
If I was bothered enough to put a recent SWAT vid on fileshare, I'm sure you would notice that when I headshot an elite, it is only ever from the front. If I shoot them in the side of the head, it registers as a body shot, not a headshot.

I apologise that my genuine thread makes you think I am 'semi-serious' and 'possibly trolling'.

  • 09.03.2010 5:06 AM PDT

Hey.


Posted by: JDYeash937 MkII

Posted by: Kit Airwave

Posted by: JDYeash937 MkII
I'm loving the fact that I'm getting called arrogant and a troll for noticing something that apparently no-one else does.

And how this has generally degenerated into a flamefest on me.
It's fine that you have an opinion, but some of the info you presented is far from factual. It's hard to tell sometimes if players on these forums are just new and don't have a full understanding of the game/playlist, or are just trying to start some ruckus by making a semi-serious post like yours.
If I was bothered enough to put a recent SWAT vid on fileshare, I'm sure you would notice that when I headshot an elite, it is only ever from the front. If I shoot them in the side of the head, it registers as a body shot, not a headshot.

I apologise that my genuine thread makes you think I am 'semi-serious' and 'possibly trolling'.
I never said I didn't take you seriously, I was simply pointing out why people could take it that way.

There's no video in your fileshare and everyone's harder to kill from behind.

  • 09.03.2010 5:16 AM PDT

You can head shot Elites if you shoot between their shoulders at ground level. Not that hard to do if you can aim.


I find Swat to be boring after a few games. It's only ever decent when the host is good, but other than that, it's silly.

  • 09.03.2010 5:22 AM PDT

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