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This topic has moved here: Subject: Forge Lessons ***UPDATED*** Lesson 30 (10/18/10)
  • Subject: Forge Lessons ***UPDATED*** Lesson 30 (10/18/10)
Subject: Forge Lessons ***UPDATED*** Lesson 30 (10/18/10)

Check out my Forge Handbook blog at http://forge-life.blogspot.com for everything you could possibly need to know about the technical aspect of using Forge 2.0.

The Guide is nearly complete, but there is always room for new submissions, so remember to check back.

@Mr. Battlefield Whiner-Boy

I always love it when people seem to think that non-specific nouns and verbs can be trademarked in any degree or fashion....


@G-Perf

I'mma just be nice and not enter; that means you (GP) can't either. Also, I don't know how you are with general design and page layouts, but I'd be glad to help with the PDFing and other such publication hassles. (my PDF that's up right now is NOT an example of what I know how to do, it took about 25 mins to throw together, not including stuff like the visual aides.

@Lego Man

I adore legos. We should build a map about legos. No, EVERYONE should build a map about legos.

@EVERYONE

Build a map about legos.

@Legos

Prepare to have a map about you.

@Map

Prepare to be legos.


I am sorry about my sanity, it has run off.

  • 10.23.2010 8:29 PM PDT

Check out my personal game/level design blog at:
http://www.reachingperfection.com

Want to get better at forging maps? Check out my
Forge Lessons.

Looking for a quality map to play with your friends? Then check out: Affinity and Think Twice.

Posted by: The Ardly374

@G-Perf

I'mma just be nice and not enter; that means you (GP) can't either. Also, I don't know how you are with general design and page layouts, but I'd be glad to help with the PDFing and other such publication hassles. (my PDF that's up right now is NOT an example of what I know how to do, it took about 25 mins to throw together, not including stuff like the visual aides.


Actually I hadn't planned on entering. :P I definitely need some judges though. Which means some of the top designers will not be entering and will be judging instead. :P That means you, Bart, and several others. Hopefully I can get Louis or Grim to put it up on the front page to grab some attention. I'm sure some people are tired of just forge contests and are not as dedicated as some people. This will be more of a thinking contest rather than a work contest. And with everyone using the same map there will be no aesthetic nonsense with people saying that "You just chose that map cuz it looks good". In order to know what a good entry is, people will have to play it.

For those that missed it... this is the contest we are talking about:

Posted by me:

So I had this interesting idea for setting up a challenge over at my blog that utilizes these lessons. I was thinking about setting up a map and fully forging it myself. And then use it as a template for a challenge. What people would do is take the map and they would have to finish it up. The catch is that you will not be allowed to use any objects under the structure category. So you can only use scenery, spawning, objectives, weapons, vehicles, and gadgets. I would give you a gametype to build for... say one flag CTF. As a designer you would have to take the map and decide where teams spawn, setup your spawn perspectives properly, use incentives, eye catching, and all of the other forge lessons to perfect the maps gameplay. Then I would get a group of people who have not seen the map before play on all of the maps or the top X and vote for the best playing one.

What do you guys think of this?

  • 10.24.2010 1:20 AM PDT

Check out my Forge Handbook blog at http://forge-life.blogspot.com for everything you could possibly need to know about the technical aspect of using Forge 2.0.

The Guide is nearly complete, but there is always room for new submissions, so remember to check back.

Jeez...Always sooo serious. But aight, I do it, I do it.

  • 10.24.2010 2:33 AM PDT

- Dragon Ball/Z/GT and it's merchandise are awesome.
- All "abriged" parodies are hilarious.
- Humanity, as a whole, is stupid.
- I have asperger's syndrome
- This is the best used 20 seconds of your life
- Official helper to the Halo: Reach - The Armor You'll Be Wearing This Fall! Thread


Posted by: Godly_Perfection
So I had this interesting idea for setting up a challenge over at my blog that utilizes these lessons. I was thinking about setting up a map and fully forging it myself. And then use it as a template for a challenge. What people would do is take the map and they would have to finish it up. The catch is that you will not be allowed to use any objects under the structure category. So you can only use scenery, spawning, objectives, weapons, vehicles, and gadgets. I would give you a gametype to build for... say one flag CTF. As a designer you would have to take the map and decide where teams spawn, setup your spawn perspectives properly, use incentives, eye catching, and all of the other forge lessons to perfect the maps gameplay. Then I would get a group of people who have not seen the map before play on all of the maps or the top X and vote for the best playing one.

What do you guys think of this?


It'd be interesting, but I'd have to pass.

The part of forge I excel at is thinking up crazy concepts and map design, not the actual weapon/objective placement, gametype desgin, etc.

But I suppose that's why I read these, isn't it? to get better. :)

  • 10.24.2010 1:36 PM PDT
Subject: Forge Lessons w/ PDF ***UPDATED*** Lesson 31 (10/22/10)

Eagle Rock Blue

WHO ARE WE?!

Thanks alot! I've been having lots of trouble with forge. Very complicated in my opinion. Hopefully this will help me!

  • 10.24.2010 2:28 PM PDT

Check out my Forge Handbook blog at http://forge-life.blogspot.com for everything you could possibly need to know about the technical aspect of using Forge 2.0.

The Guide is nearly complete, but there is always room for new submissions, so remember to check back.


Posted by: My Gamertag ls
Thanks alot! I've been having lots of trouble with forge. Very complicated in my opinion. Hopefully this will help me!


Remember dude, if you're having technical troubles, check out the Forge Handbook. Gawdly keeps forgetting to links it :P. Just go to the index or use the side navigation to find what you need, and questions are always welcome. G-perf just kinda wants to keep this thread's comments more or less on topic.



  • 10.24.2010 7:05 PM PDT

Check out my personal game/level design blog at:
http://www.reachingperfection.com

Want to get better at forging maps? Check out my
Forge Lessons.

Looking for a quality map to play with your friends? Then check out: Affinity and Think Twice.

I did link it bro... see :P : I just did it last night... lol. It is right after the lesson list.

NOTE: If you are looking for forge technical advice, like how to get your spawns to work or how to use gametype labels, this is not the thread to ask my friend. Either take the time to PM your question or head on over to TheArdly's Forge Handbook where he has a whole bunch of technical information. He will also take the time to answer your questions if you need it.

  • 10.24.2010 7:44 PM PDT

Check out my Forge Handbook blog at http://forge-life.blogspot.com for everything you could possibly need to know about the technical aspect of using Forge 2.0.

The Guide is nearly complete, but there is always room for new submissions, so remember to check back.

Awww...my lazy is fail...oh well, I still got to feel put out = my day is complete. But yeah, thanks rafiki yangu.

  • 10.24.2010 8:04 PM PDT
Subject: Are you waiting to make maps in Forge 2.0? This will help you wait...

The candy man can!
Posted by: FlipTaco
Posted by: FlipTaco
Somebody with extreme moral value is about to post and tell you how bad it is that you're going to miss one day of school. Just wait for it... wait for it...

Posted by: overhem
Education is the most important thing in your life. Don't skip it for a video game.

Tada!

Um. Why would anyone need this/waste their time reading it when they can watch a 6 minute youtube video?

  • 10.25.2010 5:32 PM PDT

Posted by: wi1lywonka
Um. Why would anyone need this/waste their time reading it when they can watch a 6 minute youtube video?


Most people don't want to be watching a youtube video with all 31 lessons crammed in it (I know I wouldn't). Anyways, reading never hurt anyone, has it? You could ask all the people who posted comments or read these lessons and most of them would prefer reading the lessons. Reading these lessons make us think about these lessons and how they could be interpreted. Go ahead and read any one of these thirty-one lessons and you'll see how much time and effort Godly has put into writing these lessons. When you read a book and then see its movie, which is better the book or the movie? The movie is just one interpretation of the book. Go back and read the other thirteen pages of comments. Some people have criticized these lessons while other understood and got something out these lessons. I've read most of these lessons and skimmed through a few and I have not thought of them as a waste of time. What you think of these lessons is your own opinion.

  • 10.25.2010 6:25 PM PDT
Subject: Forge Lessons w/ PDF ***UPDATED*** Lesson 31 (10/22/10)

great thread, saved
I will surely use this to help me forge my first legit map not just something I build on the fly

  • 10.26.2010 8:16 AM PDT

Wow, no one is leaving any comments. I guess some people don't find this so interesting anymore as it was in the first few lessons. Post to keep this thread alive! Read and post about it.

  • 10.26.2010 3:14 PM PDT
Subject: Are you waiting to make maps in Forge 2.0? This will help you wait...

Say what again. I dare you!

I found this series at the perfect time as I am just about to start working on my forgetacular entry, even though I can't win the X-Box as I am a Canadian. My goal is just to get my map into multiplayer, and your tutorials have given me the insight I need to make that a possibility.

  • 10.26.2010 3:58 PM PDT

Check out my personal game/level design blog at:
http://www.reachingperfection.com

Want to get better at forging maps? Check out my
Forge Lessons.

Looking for a quality map to play with your friends? Then check out: Affinity and Think Twice.

Glad you guys are loving the lessons. The are starting to get tons of attention at various sites. So let's keep going shall we? Today's lesson builds off of lesson 31 on immersion. You can read it with a little bit more commentary on ReachingPerfection.com, but if you are too cool to fall for advertising here is the BNet link and synopsis:


Lesson 32: Cohesion

* Cohesion is all about creating a unity between all of the objects in your map to create one flowing experience
* The lack of cohesion breaks immersion for players, making them more critical and perceptive
* Slow progression of aesthetics is a very basic concept that can help the cohesion of your map

  • 10.26.2010 10:10 PM PDT
Subject: Forge Lessons w/ PDF ***UPDATED*** Lesson 32 (10/26/10)


Posted by: OldLegoexpert

Posted by: Godly_Perfection
Thank you Ardly... I actually haven't truly discovered any true theory behind the differences of designing a asymmetric vs a symmetric map. When I do come up with one you can count on me turning it into a lesson bro.


What are symmetric and asymmetric maps??? I've been wondering for ages and it's been killing me!




Symmetrical map layout are those that do not give one team an advantage over the other and have some type of objective associated with the game type. You do not want one team to initially spawn half the distance to the objective or fixed goal than the other team, or they would have an advantage.

But symmetry in the context of the game type property is neither a map nor game type, but a property of game types. It has nothing to do with map layout, but it does influence map layout heavily. It has nothing to do with FFA v Team, although FFA is always asymmetrical. It is not spawning, but it influences where you set initial spawn points and should lead to neutral respawn points exclusively for some types of games.

If you have any question about which game types are symmetrical, tag an object as symmetrical and try out every game type. It will be present only in those that are symmetrical and absent in those that are asymmetrical. You will find that all FFA games (not game types) are asymmetrical. This is because you cannot form a symmetrical game play between numerous individuals, even with objectives (e.g.- odd ball). And some team games are symmetrical, while others are asymmetrical.

Note that headhunter has a bug in it where the property is reversed for FFA v team. I believe I know why it was overlooked, and while it is insignificant in almost every case, it is definitely wrong.

Someone said that slayer was always symmetrical. (I copied his post, but I don't know who it was and I am trying to find the original post now.) This claim is wrong in both theory and practice. All slayer games, regardless of team or FFA, are asymmetrical. This is because there is no objective or fixed goal that one must maintain equal distance for team respawn. You could respawn anywhere on the map, which can give you an advantage that an opponent had prior.

In this regard, one must keep in mind that maps for slayer should use neutral respawns (to support slayer team), particularly if they have asymmetrical layout.





[Edited on 10.26.2010 10:32 PM PDT]

  • 10.26.2010 10:28 PM PDT

“We are the Mirratord. We strike with speed and stealth. Our enemies will not see their deaths. They will not know their fate. In darkness, we will see light. In light, we will see darkness. No matter the location, we will see victory. If we fail, no one will know. Like a ghost, our presence is a mystery. For the honor of the Mirratord" Join the Mirratord here

I actually really like the idea of that "Contest". I think it would not only be an exciting way to flex the creative muscle, but it would also help teach players the right and wrong way to fix spawns. I've always thought that the difference between a good map, and an acceptable map lay in the spawns, hence the major difference between Bungie Narrows and MLG Narrows.

  • 10.26.2010 10:31 PM PDT

Check out my Forge Handbook blog at http://forge-life.blogspot.com for everything you could possibly need to know about the technical aspect of using Forge 2.0.

The Guide is nearly complete, but there is always room for new submissions, so remember to check back.


Posted by: MrGreenWithAGun

Posted by: OldLegoexpert

Posted by: Godly_Perfection
Thank you Ardly... I actually haven't truly discovered any true theory behind the differences of designing a asymmetric vs a symmetric map. When I do come up with one you can count on me turning it into a lesson bro.


What are symmetric and asymmetric maps??? I've been wondering for ages and it's been killing me!




Symmetrical map layout are those that do not give one team an advantage over the other and have some type of objective associated with the game type. You do not want one team to initially spawn half the distance to the objective or fixed goal than the other team, or they would have an advantage.

But symmetry in the context of the game type property is neither a map nor game type, but a property of game types. It has nothing to do with map layout, but it does influence map layout heavily. It has nothing to do with FFA v Team, although FFA is always asymmetrical. It is not spawning, but it influences where you set initial spawn points and should lead to neutral respawn points exclusively for some types of games.

If you have any question about which game types are symmetrical, tag an object as symmetrical and try out every game type. It will be present only in those that are symmetrical and absent in those that are asymmetrical. You will find that all FFA games (not game types) are asymmetrical. This is because you cannot form a symmetrical game play between numerous individuals, even with objectives (e.g.- odd ball). And some team games are symmetrical, while others are asymmetrical.

Note that headhunter has a bug in it where the property is reversed for FFA v team. I believe I know why it was overlooked, and while it is insignificant in almost every case, it is definitely wrong.

Someone said that slayer was always symmetrical. (I copied his post, but I don't know who it was and I am trying to find the original post now.) This claim is wrong in both theory and practice. All slayer games, regardless of team or FFA, are asymmetrical. This is because there is no objective or fixed goal that one must maintain equal distance for team respawn. You could respawn anywhere on the map, which can give you an advantage that an opponent had prior.

In this regard, one must keep in mind that maps for slayer should use neutral respawns (to support slayer team), particularly if they have asymmetrical layout.






Very, very close, but you were wrong about Slayer. The other guy was wrong too, but just because he lumped FFA in with Team (as it sounds).

Utilizing the correct formulae for placing respawn modifiers, such as Respawn Zones, Anti Respawn Zones, and Weak Respawn Zones, one can make a game of Team Slayer as Symmetrical as they want.

The key is to place Respawn Zones, set to the team's colors, to define their spawning territory. Then, once that has been done, grid the map off (pretend that the zones you just placed don't exist, or simply ignore them) using Weak and Anti Respawn Zones to influence where you would like your players to spawn more or less often. Note: as always, it is a good idea to make sure the entire map is gridded off using these, as one will influence the Zones adjacent to it whether it has spawns inside of it or not. Remember to keep the Anti and Weak's set to Neutral.

This would make it so that players will only spawn in certain areas, depending on the team they are on, which could be used to create a perfectly symmetrical game experience, with no base switching (or spawn camping if done right).


On top of this, the map would have to be made in a way that allows for symmetrical game play. Coag and *shivers* Hemorrhage are essentially Symmetric, but are not perfectly so, and TRULY Symmetric Games are playable on them, as they offer that near-perfect Symmetric layout.

As you said, Symmetric Games, by definition, rely on the Game Type, which would mean that each team would simply have to have the same objective goals as the other (i.e. both teams are assaulting AND defending at the same time or both teams are trying to gather flags or both teams are attempting to collects skulls, not when one team is assaulting and the other is defending, or one team tries to take territories FROM the other team).

A TRULY Symmetric Game would require both a Symmetric Game Type AND a Symmetric Map. This would make Multiflag CTF on Coag TRULY Symmetrical, while Multiflag CTF on Headlong could never be more than Symmetrical.

This could also further extrapolate to games with more than two teams, wherein the map would require multiple rotational symmetries or a radially symmetric layout to be TRULY Symmetric as well as a Game Type that had all teams having the same objectives at once (i.e. all 3 teams are assaulting and defending, not 2 teams assaulting and one team defending, if that is even possible, which I haven't checked). Of course, a Non-Symmetric Map (or at least one that doesn't have enough symmetry for the number of teams) can still have Symmetric Games with all teams having the same objectives.

To clarify, I am defining a Symmetric Map as one that has a Symmetric Layout as well as a Symmetric set of OBJECTIVES. This means that they are in the same respective locations FOR ALL TEAMS.


So yeah. That's what I can think of for now. As always, for more explanation of how to set up spawning, check the OP for a link to the Forge Handbook and Click on the Spawning Guide link on the left, or just click here.

[Edited on 10.27.2010 1:49 AM PDT]

  • 10.27.2010 1:44 AM PDT

Check out my personal game/level design blog at:
http://www.reachingperfection.com

Want to get better at forging maps? Check out my
Forge Lessons.

Looking for a quality map to play with your friends? Then check out: Affinity and Think Twice.

Posted by: RAG3 ON3
I actually really like the idea of that "Contest". I think it would not only be an exciting way to flex the creative muscle, but it would also help teach players the right and wrong way to fix spawns. I've always thought that the difference between a good map, and an acceptable map lay in the spawns, hence the major difference between Bungie Narrows and MLG Narrows.


I completely agree and it can also help you focus specifically on incentive placement. What I like most about the idea is that people cannot blame the judge's for just picking an aesthetically amazing map since all of the maps will look the same. And if I do a poll kind of thing it will require that people actually download and look at or play the maps to know what they are voting for. Instead of people just picking the prettiest screenshot.

  • 10.27.2010 4:01 AM PDT

“We are the Mirratord. We strike with speed and stealth. Our enemies will not see their deaths. They will not know their fate. In darkness, we will see light. In light, we will see darkness. No matter the location, we will see victory. If we fail, no one will know. Like a ghost, our presence is a mystery. For the honor of the Mirratord" Join the Mirratord here


Posted by: Godly_Perfection
Posted by: RAG3 ON3
I actually really like the idea of that "Contest". I think it would not only be an exciting way to flex the creative muscle, but it would also help teach players the right and wrong way to fix spawns. I've always thought that the difference between a good map, and an acceptable map lay in the spawns, hence the major difference between Bungie Narrows and MLG Narrows.


I completely agree and it can also help you focus specifically on incentive placement. What I like most about the idea is that people cannot blame the judge's for just picking an aesthetically amazing map since all of the maps will look the same. And if I do a poll kind of thing it will require that people actually download and look at or play the maps to know what they are voting for. Instead of people just picking the prettiest screenshot.
Something that always bothers me about ForgeHub. Sometimes maps with creative screenshots get more recognition than maps with creative ideas. I'd love to take part in a contest like that. Incentive placement is something I feel I'm rather sloppy with, so it would be a great chance for me to see tangible examples of how it's really done, along with a chance to try my hand at it with a map I didn't design.

  • 10.27.2010 4:07 AM PDT

Check out my personal game/level design blog at:
http://www.reachingperfection.com

Want to get better at forging maps? Check out my
Forge Lessons.

Looking for a quality map to play with your friends? Then check out: Affinity and Think Twice.

Posted by: RAG3 ON3

Posted by: Godly_Perfection
Posted by: RAG3 ON3
I actually really like the idea of that "Contest". I think it would not only be an exciting way to flex the creative muscle, but it would also help teach players the right and wrong way to fix spawns. I've always thought that the difference between a good map, and an acceptable map lay in the spawns, hence the major difference between Bungie Narrows and MLG Narrows.


I completely agree and it can also help you focus specifically on incentive placement. What I like most about the idea is that people cannot blame the judge's for just picking an aesthetically amazing map since all of the maps will look the same. And if I do a poll kind of thing it will require that people actually download and look at or play the maps to know what they are voting for. Instead of people just picking the prettiest screenshot.
Something that always bothers me about ForgeHub. Sometimes maps with creative screenshots get more recognition than maps with creative ideas. I'd love to take part in a contest like that. Incentive placement is something I feel I'm rather sloppy with, so it would be a great chance for me to see tangible examples of how it's really done, along with a chance to try my hand at it with a map I didn't design.


I completely agree. I think that is the problem with a lot of Forge Contests. It is all about the looks. And that is just one thing that this type of contest will fix. It will also be a much easier contest to participate in since you don't actually have to forge a map. You just have to finish it. Also I can go back over the maps and mention some of the best things people did and use them as a great example of the lessons.

Also this is something that I do daily when I help people perfect their map. So I figured that since I do it more often, why not turn it into something that more people do. Helping people perfect their map is a great skill and this will help designers look at maps that aren't theirs and learn to tweak it to perfection as best as they can.

  • 10.27.2010 4:16 AM PDT

“We are the Mirratord. We strike with speed and stealth. Our enemies will not see their deaths. They will not know their fate. In darkness, we will see light. In light, we will see darkness. No matter the location, we will see victory. If we fail, no one will know. Like a ghost, our presence is a mystery. For the honor of the Mirratord" Join the Mirratord here


Posted by: Godly_Perfection
Posted by: RAG3 ON3

Posted by: Godly_Perfection
Posted by: RAG3 ON3
I actually really like the idea of that "Contest". I think it would not only be an exciting way to flex the creative muscle, but it would also help teach players the right and wrong way to fix spawns. I've always thought that the difference between a good map, and an acceptable map lay in the spawns, hence the major difference between Bungie Narrows and MLG Narrows.


I completely agree and it can also help you focus specifically on incentive placement. What I like most about the idea is that people cannot blame the judge's for just picking an aesthetically amazing map since all of the maps will look the same. And if I do a poll kind of thing it will require that people actually download and look at or play the maps to know what they are voting for. Instead of people just picking the prettiest screenshot.
Something that always bothers me about ForgeHub. Sometimes maps with creative screenshots get more recognition than maps with creative ideas. I'd love to take part in a contest like that. Incentive placement is something I feel I'm rather sloppy with, so it would be a great chance for me to see tangible examples of how it's really done, along with a chance to try my hand at it with a map I didn't design.


I completely agree. I think that is the problem with a lot of Forge Contests. It is all about the looks. And that is just one thing that this type of contest will fix. It will also be a much easier contest to participate in since you don't actually have to forge a map. You just have to finish it. Also I can go back over the maps and mention some of the best things people did and use them as a great example of the lessons.

Also this is something that I do daily when I help people perfect their map. So I figured that since I do it more often, why not turn it into something that more people do. Helping people perfect their map is a great skill and this will help designers look at maps that aren't theirs and learn to tweak it to perfection as best as they can.
So, when does this contest start? Hahaha.

  • 10.27.2010 4:30 AM PDT

Check out my personal game/level design blog at:
http://www.reachingperfection.com

Want to get better at forging maps? Check out my
Forge Lessons.

Looking for a quality map to play with your friends? Then check out: Affinity and Think Twice.

Not quite sure yet. I kinda gotta come up with a good design to play with. It is going to be difficult to come up with a good design that allows people to be extremely flexible with their setups. Don't worry you will know when the time comes on the blog. :P

  • 10.27.2010 5:24 AM PDT

Check out my Forge Handbook blog at http://forge-life.blogspot.com for everything you could possibly need to know about the technical aspect of using Forge 2.0.

The Guide is nearly complete, but there is always room for new submissions, so remember to check back.

I think I might have a few ideas for how the map could be laid out, should allow for loads of options.

  • 10.27.2010 10:55 AM PDT


Posted by: The Ardly374

Very, very close, but you were wrong about Slayer...

Utilizing the correct formulae for placing respawn modifiers, such as Respawn Zones, Anti Respawn Zones, and Weak Respawn Zones, one can make a game of Team Slayer as Symmetrical as they want...


I hope no one takes this reply the wrong way. I don't want to sound arrogant or talking down to anyone, so please take my post the way I am intending it to be read - I want to clarify this discussion here.

I was not trying to explain how to make a game symmetrical or asymmetrical. You cannot change the game symmetry by how you use respawn points and zones. In fact, you cannot change the game symmetry by any map decisions you make. Game symmetry is part of the game's definition and is not subject to the map design.

On the other hand, the game symmetry property should influence the map design so that the map cooperates with the game engine for a better game experience. I was explaining how to layout spawn points for a Slayer team game to cooperate with the game engine, which properly recognizes all Slayer games as asymmetrical games.

You can do what you describe for the purpose of creating a particular "feel" to your map. But in the end, it is still an asymmetrical game and it will play as such both for the user and the game engine.

  • 10.27.2010 11:24 AM PDT
Subject: Are you waiting to make maps in Forge 2.0? This will help you wait...

They said you can forge buy the centimeter.

but how do i do that ? cuz its hard to get everything without flaws.

  • 10.27.2010 11:26 AM PDT