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This topic has moved here: Subject: Forge Lessons w/ PDF ***UPDATED*** Lesson 32 (10/26/10)
  • Subject: Forge Lessons w/ PDF ***UPDATED*** Lesson 32 (10/26/10)
Subject: Forge Lessons w/ PDF ***UPDATED*** Lesson 32 (10/26/10)

Check out my Forge Handbook blog at http://forge-life.blogspot.com for everything you could possibly need to know about the technical aspect of using Forge 2.0.

The Guide is nearly complete, but there is always room for new submissions, so remember to check back.


Posted by: MrGreenWithAGun

Posted by: The Ardly374

Very, very close, but you were wrong about Slayer...

Utilizing the correct formulae for placing respawn modifiers, such as Respawn Zones, Anti Respawn Zones, and Weak Respawn Zones, one can make a game of Team Slayer as Symmetrical as they want...


I hope no one takes this reply the wrong way. I don't want to sound arrogant or talking down to anyone, so please take my post the way I am intending it to be read - I want to clarify this discussion here.



Definitely not taken the wrong way, I was simply expanding. Now, for further clarification, have you seen that the game truly does not list Team Slayer under Symmetrical? I'm going to test this, just to confirm...


[EDIT]


Sure enough, the game treats Team Slayer as an Asymmetric Game Type, so, if defined by the parameters of the game, it cannot be Symmetric, which would only truly effect your gameplay if you had set items to spawn in only Symmetric or only Asymmetric games. That actually is a very helpful bit of information for when it comes to building multipurpose maps, as it would greatly effect the settings per Item.

Now, to clarify what this means based on what I had already said: Spawning items, weapons, vehicles, and opponents would have to be taken into consideration as the objectives for a Slayer match, as they quite literally are. This being said, even though the game sees it as Asymmetric, a Slayer match on a map can be set up to be Asymmetric, Symmetric, or TRULY Symmetric, as per my previous definitions, when taking into consideration the fact that items other than true objective BECOME the objective of a Slayer Game Type.


Imma be fixin up these words and putting 'em in a post on my blog to help flesh out the soon-to-come Multi-Purpose Map series that I'm going to be making. It will include exposition on item settings across the board, save Tagging, which I've already covered in extreme detail. You sir, Mr. Green, will have mui credit for this bit.


Sorry Gawdly for das spammy spam, but maybe it'll help with your Symmetry theory (or you could just use the supplemental I'll be writing for the technical bits, which I do intend to make able to stand on it's own; I'll try and keep it within the usual length of your lessons)


[Edited on 10.27.2010 12:11 PM PDT]

  • 10.27.2010 11:52 AM PDT
Subject: Are you waiting to make maps in Forge 2.0? This will help you wait...

“We are the Mirratord. We strike with speed and stealth. Our enemies will not see their deaths. They will not know their fate. In darkness, we will see light. In light, we will see darkness. No matter the location, we will see victory. If we fail, no one will know. Like a ghost, our presence is a mystery. For the honor of the Mirratord" Join the Mirratord here

Posted by: l MySterY l
They said you can forge buy the centimeter.

but how do i do that ? cuz its hard to get everything without flaws.
Not sure what the buttons will be for you, but as I play on Bumper Jumper they might be different.

After you select an object, hit Object Tools and then hit Edit Co-ordinates.

  • 10.27.2010 12:19 PM PDT


Posted by: l MySterY l
They said you can forge buy the centimeter.

but how do i do that ? cuz its hard to get everything without flaws.


I think they were talking about the coordinates. Just pick up an object, click b, then click edit coordinates. You can even turn and flip objects precisely with this.

  • 10.27.2010 12:28 PM PDT
Subject: Forge Lessons w/ PDF ***UPDATED*** Lesson 32 (10/26/10)

Posted by: Godly_Perfection
So I had this interesting idea for setting up a challenge over at my blog that utilizes these lessons. I was thinking about setting up a map and fully forging it myself. And then use it as a template for a challenge. What people would do is take the map and they would have to finish it up. The catch is that you will not be allowed to use any objects under the structure category. So you can only use scenery, spawning, objectives, weapons, vehicles, and gadgets. I would give you a gametype to build for... say one flag CTF. As a designer you would have to take the map and decide where teams spawn, setup your spawn perspectives properly, use incentives, eye catching, and all of the other forge lessons to perfect the maps gameplay. Then I would get a group of people who have not seen the map before play on all of the maps or the top X and vote for the best playing one.

What do you guys think of this?


What I think of this? This is the best challenge someone has come up with in (post time you think is reasonable). Although there are a few loopholes. There are a few objects you can make structures out of. You should set up the challenge and post when the challenge is over. What will happen if we win this contest? Will there be any reward?

Posted by: Godly_Perfection
Not quite sure yet. I kinda gotta come up with a good design to play with. It is going to be difficult to come up with a good design that allows people to be extremely flexible with their setups. Don't worry you will know when the time comes on the blog. :P


You should make a seperate contest on making a map for the contest...lol. No seriously, if you can't come up with a good design, do this.

Posted by: The Ardly374
@Lego Man

I adore legos. We should build a map about legos. No, EVERYONE should build a map about legos.

@EVERYONE

Build a map about legos.

@Legos

Prepare to have a map about you.

@Map

Prepare to be legos.


I agree. This should be a third contest (or in second contest I stated above).

Happy forging!

  • 10.27.2010 12:56 PM PDT

Check out my personal game/level design blog at:
http://www.reachingperfection.com

Want to get better at forging maps? Check out my
Forge Lessons.

Looking for a quality map to play with your friends? Then check out: Affinity and Think Twice.

I would be perfectly fine with people building structures out of what is not in the structure category. Designers will be fully allowed to utilize all toys, scenery objects (crates, sandbags, etc.), weapons, effects, lights, man cannons, etc. I want to see how creative people can get with the options available to them and see what they do with what they are given. And I will come up with a reward. Probably MS points or something. We shall see. ;) As far as when it goes up, I can't guarantee you when it will. It is just an idea I had since it is something I do all the time with people wanting me to look over their map. Now you guys can do the same and experience what it is like taking someone else's map into your own hands.

  • 10.27.2010 2:21 PM PDT

Posted by: Godly_Perfection
I would be perfectly fine with people building structures out of what is not in the structure category. Designers will be fully allowed to utilize all toys, scenery objects (crates, sandbags, etc.), weapons, effects, lights, man cannons, etc. I want to see how creative people can get with the options available to them and see what they do with what they are given. And I will come up with a reward. Probably MS points or something. We shall see. ;) As far as when it goes up, I can't guarantee you when it will. It is just an idea I had since it is something I do all the time with people wanting me to look over their map. Now you guys can do the same and experience what it is like taking someone else's map into your own hands.


This is sort of how halo 3 forge maps worked (before the newer DLC). Bungie made the maps, and we would customize it with scenery, gravity lifts, and weapons. That's until Sandbox came when people asked to be able to build structures. Do you get my point?

Godly, do you know when you will start this contest and when it will end? I think a month would be reasonable for how long this contest should last. Also, have you decided on a map for the contest? You should make the map simple and have it so that it doesn't follow any of the guidlines of your lessons. That way people can follow the lessons.

Edit: I think the map should at least follow a few of the guidelines.

Questions:
-Can you delete any of the pre-forged objects?

-Are there any objects that are outside of structure that we cannot use?

-How will the judging take place?

-Must we use only the floors of the level or can we make our own that allow us to go higher?

Edit:
-Must the edited map we submit for the contest follow [i]all[/b] the lessons?
Including: First Impressions, Advertising, Nurturing, and Reputation.
If so, you must really take this contest very seriously. [10.27.2010]

NOTES: I will ask more questions.



[Edited on 10.27.2010 4:49 PM PDT]

  • 10.27.2010 3:07 PM PDT


Posted by: The Ardly374

...........

Now, to clarify what this means based on what I had already said: Spawning items, weapons, vehicles, and opponents would have to be taken into consideration as the objectives for a Slayer match, as they quite literally are. This being said, even though the game sees it as Asymmetric, a Slayer match on a map can be set up to be Asymmetric, Symmetric, or TRULY Symmetric, as per my previous definitions, when taking into consideration the fact that items other than true objective BECOME the objective of a Slayer Game Type....




As I think through the whole concept of how Bungie has used the game type Symmetry property and this entire discussion we have had and those I have had with others else where, it seems to me that you can reduce the entire discussion to a simple definition, like the one I present here.

Game type property symmetry:

Symmetric - When two teams are competing to achieve equivalent objectives requiring equivalent efforts simultaneously.

Asymmetric - Any game type for which the definition of Symmetric does not apply.


For example,

Two flags are equivalent, simultaneous objectives, with the intent of equivalent efforts that must be enforced by the map design.

Slayer is simultaneous, equivalent objectives, but with non equivalent effort, because the objectives themselves are moving, regardless of the map design.


  • 10.27.2010 6:20 PM PDT


Posted by: MrGreenWithAGun

Posted by: The Ardly374

...........

Now, to clarify what this means based on what I had already said: Spawning items, weapons, vehicles, and opponents would have to be taken into consideration as the objectives for a Slayer match, as they quite literally are. This being said, even though the game sees it as Asymmetric, a Slayer match on a map can be set up to be Asymmetric, Symmetric, or TRULY Symmetric, as per my previous definitions, when taking into consideration the fact that items other than true objective BECOME the objective of a Slayer Game Type....




As I think through the whole concept of how Bungie has used the game type Symmetry property and this entire discussion we have had and those I have had with others else where, it seems to me that you can reduce the entire discussion to a simple definition, like the one I present here.

Game type property symmetry:

Symmetric - When two teams are competing to achieve equivalent objectives requiring equivalent efforts simultaneously.

Asymmetric - Any game type for which the definition of Symmetric does not apply.


For example,

Two flags are equivalent, simultaneous objectives, with the intent of equivalent efforts that must be enforced by the map design.

Slayer is simultaneous, equivalent objectives, but with non equivalent effort, because the objectives themselves are moving, regardless of the map design.




Wow. Is this just because I asked what were symmetric and asymmetric maps? Or did someone else ask and you two are answering the question for that person.

  • 10.27.2010 8:36 PM PDT


Posted by: OldLegoexpert

Wow. Is this just because I asked what were symmetric and asymmetric maps? Or did someone else ask and you two are answering the question for that person.



Honestly, I lost track.


  • 10.27.2010 8:44 PM PDT

Check out my Forge Handbook blog at http://forge-life.blogspot.com for everything you could possibly need to know about the technical aspect of using Forge 2.0.

The Guide is nearly complete, but there is always room for new submissions, so remember to check back.

Posted by: MrGreenWithAGun

Posted by: OldLegoexpert

Wow. Is this just because I asked what were symmetric and asymmetric maps? Or did someone else ask and you two are answering the question for that person.



Honestly, I lost track.





I think it was due to a couple of things I've seen as the comments have come along, at least from my side, on top of your asking.

But that still doesn't account for the Symmetry of a Map and the experience being fully Symmetrical. If you've noticed, Bungie doesn't do Symmetric Games on Asymmetric Maps, you can, but it's just a choice that most don't make.

  • 10.27.2010 9:11 PM PDT


Posted by: The Ardly374

But that still doesn't account for the Symmetry of a Map and the experience being fully Symmetrical. If you've noticed, Bungie doesn't do Symmetric Games on Asymmetric Maps, you can, but it's just a choice that most don't make.


You lost me here...

Do you mean that a symmetrical game can be played on an asymmetrically designed map, but Bungie chose not to?

  • 10.27.2010 10:02 PM PDT


Posted by: MrGreenWithAGun

Posted by: The Ardly374

But that still doesn't account for the Symmetry of a Map and the experience being fully Symmetrical. If you've noticed, Bungie doesn't do Symmetric Games on Asymmetric Maps, you can, but it's just a choice that most don't make.


You lost me here...

Do you mean that a symmetrical game can be played on an asymmetrically designed map, but Bungie chose not to?


They can be played but they will play differently. Its like playing 2 flag on Pinnacle. Its just not fair, the map isn't even for both teams.

Sorry for bringing MW2 into this, but if you actually notice, CTF in that game has rounds for this exact reason.

Thats the best example I could come up with.

  • 10.27.2010 11:25 PM PDT

Check out my Forge Handbook blog at http://forge-life.blogspot.com for everything you could possibly need to know about the technical aspect of using Forge 2.0.

The Guide is nearly complete, but there is always room for new submissions, so remember to check back.

No problem with MW2, it was mainly large chunks of the player base that ruined it, as the game itself was pretty solid, although Matchmaking was quite lacking, as was co-op.


Blah blah blah, back to my point I was going to make...

That is exactly what I was talking about, Symmetrical Game Types are almost worthless without the Map itself being Symmetrical.

  • 10.28.2010 7:51 AM PDT


Posted by: The Ardly374
No problem with MW2, it was mainly large chunks of the player base that ruined it, as the game itself was pretty solid, although Matchmaking was quite lacking, as was co-op.


Blah blah blah, back to my point I was going to make...

That is exactly what I was talking about, Symmetrical Game Types are almost worthless without the Map itself being Symmetrical.


This is becoming so repetitive. Anyone have to say something on the lessons? Seems like htis is just becoming a forum that people say what they think of how symmetry is defined. For that you start a new forum.

I think it was me who asked what symmetric and asymmetric maps where. Think about the letter A. It can be divided in two and be equal on both sides. Same with the letter o. Although you can divide it in fourths and it will remain the same on each side. When you get the letter Q, it is a letter that iis not symmetrical.

  • 10.28.2010 1:17 PM PDT


Posted by: BlindFireSniper

Posted by: MrGreenWithAGun

Posted by: The Ardly374

But that still doesn't account for the Symmetry of a Map and the experience being fully Symmetrical. If you've noticed, Bungie doesn't do Symmetric Games on Asymmetric Maps, you can, but it's just a choice that most don't make.


You lost me here...

Do you mean that a symmetrical game can be played on an asymmetrically designed map, but Bungie chose not to?


They can be played but they will play differently. Its like playing 2 flag on Pinnacle. Its just not fair, the map isn't even for both teams.

Sorry for bringing MW2 into this, but if you actually notice, CTF in that game has rounds for this exact reason.

Thats the best example I could come up with.



Glad you joined into this conversation..

The game type property Symmetry has only one purpose - to inform the map that the game type is symmetrical. Why would it do that for? To instruct the map so that the map can enforce map design symmetry.

You are correct, you can play a game type that is symmetrical on an asymmetrical map. In that case, the map design ignores the game type property and fails to enforce the symmetry of the game play. But who would want to do that?


Correct me if I am wrong (and please be very specific with examples if you do so), but my understanding and experience is that multiple rounds are only on asymmetrical games where each team takes turn experiencing the advantages of being defense or offense. If the map is asymmetrical in design, then the players also take turns experiencing the advantages or disadvantages of the map's design. Therefore, it makes sense that asymmetrical maps are used only with asymmetrical games, because the game type already provides for "taking turns" with the game experience.

There are symmetrical games that are played on near-symmetrical maps (Vahala, Sand Trap); maps that may not be truly symmetrical in experience, but they come close enough (apparently) that they are used in those ways. Sand Trap is especially true in this regard. The valley between the structures is not nearly centered in the map and that can affect multi-flag games on that map. But what are you going to do with a map like Sand Trap? Limit it to asymmetrical games only? Bungie didn't think so...



  • 10.28.2010 5:37 PM PDT

Godly_Perfection needs to make a link to a new forum that includes your theories for symmetric and asymmetric maps. And I went back to the past comments and found that I was the one who asked the question. And sadly, I regret it and am thankful I asked that question.

Edit: New thread for all theories on symmetric and asymmetric maps: Thread (includes poll)

If it is fine with Godly, I would like it so that everyone posts their theories on symmetric and asymmetric maps. This will provide a more organized resource for these theories.

[Edited on 10.28.2010 7:52 PM PDT]

  • 10.28.2010 5:49 PM PDT


Posted by: MrGreenWithAGun

There are symmetrical games that are played on near-symmetrical maps (Vahala, Sand Trap); maps that may not be truly symmetrical in experience, but they come close enough (apparently) that they are used in those ways. Sand Trap is especially true in this regard. The valley between the structures is not nearly centered in the map and that can affect multi-flag games on that map. But what are you going to do with a map like Sand Trap? Limit it to asymmetrical games only? Bungie didn't think so...



As long as the weapon set is even enough or placed out so they can be obtained by both teams in the same time period, a map should play Symmetrical Games fine, considering Team Slayer is symmetrical. Thats what Sandtrap and Valhalla are categorized as.

[Edited on 10.28.2010 6:00 PM PDT]

  • 10.28.2010 5:58 PM PDT

The cake is a pie

Bump because your voice must be heard!

  • 10.29.2010 4:57 AM PDT


Posted by: BlindFireSniper

Posted by: MrGreenWithAGun

There are symmetrical games that are played on near-symmetrical maps (Vahala, Sand Trap); maps that may not be truly symmetrical in experience, but they come close enough (apparently) that they are used in those ways. Sand Trap is especially true in this regard. The valley between the structures is not nearly centered in the map and that can affect multi-flag games on that map. But what are you going to do with a map like Sand Trap? Limit it to asymmetrical games only? Bungie didn't think so...



As long as the weapon set is even enough or placed out so they can be obtained by both teams in the same time period, a map should play Symmetrical Games fine, considering Team Slayer is symmetrical. Thats what Sandtrap and Valhalla are categorized as.





As I mentioned before, Slayer in all forms are asymmetrical.

  • 10.29.2010 6:45 PM PDT

"Providing targets for clear headshots since 2009"

Tagged. Can't believe I didn't see this before.

  • 10.29.2010 6:55 PM PDT
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I remember reading this awhile ago dang there are now a lot more lessons I need to read. Thanks for the help of how to make forge maps good.

  • 10.29.2010 10:20 PM PDT

Join Halo Haven for all things related to Halo 4


Tell her that If you jingle my bells, Ill promise you a white Christmas - Call Me Venom
The world can't end next month. My yogurt expires in 2013 - Princess Cadence
If Apple invented a car, would it have windows? - Xxembers

Just wanted to say these lessons are really helpful when I'm forging a map. I haven't read all of them, but the parts I always remember are Spawning, 1st impressions, and making weapons eye-catching.

The last thing you want is to have players frustrated when they play your map. Things have to be obvious so they can find it with little effort. If they have to ask you how to get to it, your map needs work.

With spawning, I always ask myself if I want to spawn here at any time during a match. I'm still getting in the habit of good spawn placement, but for the most part my maps don't have spawns that frustrate players. I strive to make them safe and obvious to players.

For weapons, I want you to find it on your first play through. On my Downtown map, it was a challenge to make the Sniper placement feel natural and obvious while making it realistic and balanced. For the final versions, I ended up placing it immediately in front of the player as they exit the Elevator, but I did it in a way so you don't have to out-snipe the other sniper as soon as you got it.

I also try to make the weapon set even for players. Some weapons are good as neutral ones, but IMO a Sniper Rifle shouldn't be unless it's a map like Rat's Nest. Then again, I'm more of a symmetric builder, so don't expect me to make crazy 1-sided maps anytime soon.

Thanks for your contribution, OP.

[Edited on 10.30.2010 1:33 AM PDT]

  • 10.30.2010 1:20 AM PDT

Godly_Perfection,

These forge lessons are fantastic. They clearly prove that there is much, much more to making maps than simple putting that next to this.

How many lessons do you intend to provide?
You deserve a custom member title like 'Forge Master' or 'Map God' as a reward for volunteering to make these forge lessons.

So thank you very much for these lessons!

  • 10.30.2010 3:37 PM PDT

Check out my personal game/level design blog at:
http://www.reachingperfection.com

Want to get better at forging maps? Check out my
Forge Lessons.

Looking for a quality map to play with your friends? Then check out: Affinity and Think Twice.

Updated the OP with the new lessons... below you will find the links and synopsis for the new lessons. Today I wrote 3 to celebrate halloween/me and my wife's first anniversary. Enjoy the lessons. Remember you can download the PDF on the Forge Lessons page.

Lesson 33: Continuity

* I define continuity as the ability to traverse the map with natural movement that does not require a conscious action
* A lack of continuity can cause a player to "wake up" from the lack of immersion and cohesion and begin fully criticizing your map
* Discontinuity isn't always a bad thing, it can be a powerful tool for controlling player's movement as well

Lesson 34: Peer Review

* Designers have a tendency of missing minor details, so getting a second pair of eyes is a powerful tool for designers
* Taking the time to look over your map and perfect it before going into playtest can help improve your map's first impression greatly
* Going over your own map in a game helps you find things that you wouldn't see from a designer's point of view

Lesson 35: Failure

* Failure is a normal thing for everyone and it helps to accept when something did meet your standards
* Failure can serve as a stepping stone to success as it teaches you new things and by learning from failure you can improve your future projects
* Don't just complete drop your failures; keep them on the back burner for the future when you are more experienced and knowledgeable

  • 10.30.2010 5:07 PM PDT

3 new lessons at once!!! Wow. This will take me about a day to read. Good job, Godly.

P.S. By day, I mean an hour or two.

  • 10.30.2010 6:06 PM PDT