Halo 1 & 2 for PC
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  • Subject: Halo:Reach For PC
Subject: Halo:Reach For PC

Bring Back Rocket Race!!!


Posted by: Dr Syx
I'm sorry but name one character in any of the Unreal Engine games that has a bulky structure to them that's not meant to be like that. Dom and Cole both are meant to be over-muscular characters. That's the entire idea behind the male protagonists.


Well, let's take the game Army of Two as an example. The main characters in Army of Two have pretty much the same bulkiness and armor style as Gears of War and Unreal Tournament. However, Army of Two is set in modern times from 1993-2009. Therefore, it's meant to reflect a more realistic war scenario. However, in reality, we don't have giant meat tanks wearing armor that's about the same thickness of 2-3 people. Army of Two was intended to be a modern warfare game like Call of Duty. It does pretty good in terms of gameplay, but as it uses Unreal Engine, its character models are way bulkier than any real life infantry we have. The only time someone would wear bulky armor like that is if you're in bomb squad. However, we don't send bomb squad members on missions in the battlefield or undercover spec ops missions. So there you go, there's absolutely no reason a modern warfare shooter game would share the same armor style and bulkiness as Gears of War and Unreal Tournament.

In pretty much every non-Unreal Game, the main male protagonists are not bulky. Master Chief is nowhere near as bulky as Gears of War characters despite all his Spartan II augmentations and armor. Alcatraz from Crysis 2, with his nanosuit, is not bulky either. And not a single character from the Call of Duty series is bulky. Characters in Counter Strike are not bulky, all Source Engine games don't have any bulky characters like what you see in Unreal games.

  • 03.30.2012 8:54 PM PDT
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You keep on saying you don't see those types of bulky characters in games outside UE3 then repeatedly refer to about 4 games from the UE3 engine. Let me show you why you don't find as many games with bulky characters in them:

List of Source Engine games (Dota 2, Dark Messiah, and Left 4 Dead have bulky models)

List of CryEngine games (Specifically 3) (Nexuiz has bulky models)

List of Unreal Engine games

Let's see... Hmmm... Why in the world would you end up finding 5 games with the same sort of "bulky" characters in it while you don't find it much for the other two engines? No idea... It wouldn't be about the massive amount of UE3 games, would it!?!?

Using your logic I bet I could make a case about UE3 games having more examples of anything compared to the other engines. Let's say for example... Fish. Apparently the source and Cryteck engines are terrible for creating fish with because I've played 4 games out of the massive library of UE3 games with fish in game whereas I haven't seen many from the other engines' games.

Here are some games without bulky models/with many models that aren't bulky on UE3:
Mirror's Edge
Mortal Kombat
Tribes Ascend (Light classes look very thin)
Tom Clancy games
Homefront
Borderlands/Borderlands 2
APB Reloaded
Brothers in Arms games
Alliance of Valiant Arms
Infinity Blade/II
Red Orchestra 2
TERA

Those are just the games I know for a fact, too. Even in the games that do have a number of bulky characters, there are also characters that aren't bulky. Like I said, the females aren't bulky in the areas that aren't armored on Gears of War. Mass Effect's humans aren't bulky at all.

As for the Army of Two stuff, these models look bulky to you? They look no where near as bulky as you keep on saying. In fact, they look similar to Quake IV (on iD Tech 4)

P.S. Lol at Army of Two being called anything near "realistic".

[Edited on 04.01.2012 9:37 PM PDT]

  • 03.30.2012 9:41 PM PDT
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Yeah. That's right. I don't have a 50 in H3. I never got Onyx in Reach. If a game sucks too much, I won't even bother trying for such trivial "accolades". Besides, I've done way more things that take far more skill and talent than anything that can be done in a video game.

Posted by: General Heed
If Gears of War was the ONLY Unreal Engine game with characters like this, then I'd agree it's just merely a design choice by the developers, but when several games from different developers with the same game engine show the same design, that implies that the engine has something do with it. When games of the same engine share some characteristics, those common characteristics are probably from the game engine.

It's like you're completely ignoring every single example we gave. Every single one.

  • 03.31.2012 12:39 AM PDT

Bring Back Rocket Race!!!


Posted by: Dr Syx
You keep on saying you don't see those types of bulky characters in games outside the source engine then repeatedly refer to about 4 games from the UE3 engine. Let me show you why you don't find as many games with bulky characters in them:

List of Source Engine games (Dota 2, Dark Messiah, and Left 4 Dead have bulky models)

List of CryEngine games (Specifically 3) (Nexuiz has bulky models)

List of Unreal Engine games

Let's see... Hmmm... Why in the world would you end up finding 5 games with the same sort of "bulky" characters in it while you don't find it much for the other two engines? No idea... It wouldn't be about the massive amount of UE3 games, would it!?!?

Using your logic I bet I could make a case about UE3 games having more examples of anything compared to the other engines. Let's say for example... Fish. Apparently the source and Cryteck engines are terrible for creating fish with because I've played 4 games out of the massive library of UE3 games with fish in game whereas I haven't seen many from the other engines' games.

Here are some games without bulky models/with many models that aren't bulky on UE3:
Mirror's Edge
Mortal Kombat
Tribes Ascend (Light classes look very thin)
Tom Clancy games
Homefront
Borderlands/Borderlands 2
APB Reloaded
Brothers in Arms games
Alliance of Valiant Arms
Infinity Blade/II
Red Orchestra 2
TERA

Those are just the games I know for a fact, too. Even in the games that do have a number of bulky characters, there are also characters that aren't bulky. Like I said, the females aren't bulky in the areas that aren't armored on Gears of War. Mass Effect's humans aren't bulky at all.

As for the Army of Two stuff, these models look bulky to you? They look no where near as bulky as you keep on saying. In fact, they look similar to Quake IV (on iD Tech 4)

P.S. Lol at Army of Two being called anything near "realistic".


Maybe Unreal Engine is better suited for designing fish than CryEngine is. After all, a game engine provides you with a default set of tools to build your game. There's bound to be similarities between games that share the same game engine.

With Need For Speed: The Run and Battlefield 3, it's very easy to tell that they both share the same Frostbite 2 engine. Going back to the Halo Engine, Halo 1 and Stubbs the Zombie share the same physics and death animations. So is it really that farfetched for Unreal Engine games to share the same default bulky character model? Like I said, it's the "default" model meaning game developers are free to change it if they want, but to save time, perhaps many developers just use the default models.

  • 04.01.2012 2:31 PM PDT
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Yeah. That's right. I don't have a 50 in H3. I never got Onyx in Reach. If a game sucks too much, I won't even bother trying for such trivial "accolades". Besides, I've done way more things that take far more skill and talent than anything that can be done in a video game.

"Many developers" as in just the one you keep citing, apparently.

  • 04.01.2012 3:57 PM PDT
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Posted by: General Heed
So is it really that farfetched for Unreal Engine games to share the same default bulky character model?
It is if you cite it as a negative towards the engine its self when it really has nothing to do with the game's actual engine. You can't name seem to name a single example where it wouldn't make sense to have a bulky character. If you want proof, look for concept art for the characters you're claiming are bulky because of the engine.

Here are some examples:
Gears of War
Unreal Tournament 3
Mass Effect 3 (Even though most models/concept art pieces aren't bulky at all. Don't even know why you'd keep saying they are.)

If they were like that in concept, it has nothing to do with the engine. There are more games on UE3 that don't have lots of bulky models than do have lots, the games that do have bulky character models were always meant to be bulky from concept, and there are so many games that use UE3 that I could make up any argument about UE3 compared to the other engines using your logic. If you really want to continue with this discussion you obviously can't see reason what so ever.

[Edited on 04.01.2012 9:27 PM PDT]

  • 04.01.2012 9:27 PM PDT
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Yeah. That's right. I don't have a 50 in H3. I never got Onyx in Reach. If a game sucks too much, I won't even bother trying for such trivial "accolades". Besides, I've done way more things that take far more skill and talent than anything that can be done in a video game.


Posted by: Dr Syx
Mass Effect 3

Ugh, those salarians are clearly too bulky. Must be the engine.

  • 04.01.2012 9:32 PM PDT

Bring Back Rocket Race!!!


Posted by: DusK

Posted by: Dr Syx
Mass Effect 3

Ugh, those salarians are clearly too bulky. Must be the engine.


Fine, the only way to settle this once and for all is for someone to get the UDK and take a look at what the default offerings are including the included samples. If the default models don't indicate any level of bulkiness and is pretty much the same as Halo Engine, IW 4.0, CryEngine 3, Frostbite 2, and so on, then I'll admit I was wrong. So if anyone can provide the necessary screenshots to show what the default character and skeletal models are like in the UDK, it would be much appreciated. Until then, I don't think either side is going to admit they were wrong yet.

  • 04.01.2012 9:40 PM PDT
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I just showed you concept art of all the bulky characters you were talking about before. That clearly shows they were originally intended to be like that and not the fault of the engine. You are incredibly hard headed...

  • 04.01.2012 9:49 PM PDT
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Yeah. That's right. I don't have a 50 in H3. I never got Onyx in Reach. If a game sucks too much, I won't even bother trying for such trivial "accolades". Besides, I've done way more things that take far more skill and talent than anything that can be done in a video game.

Not to mention there's no such thing as a "default model" when using the version of UE3 that game developers have access to, so Heed's argument was pretty much laughable from the start.

  • 04.01.2012 9:58 PM PDT

i dont know about any of this and only read this page, but it piqued my interest.

http://udn.epicgames.com/Three/UDKCustomCharacters.html

provides skeletons,

"Below are 4 different skeletons which can be used as guides or foundations for building your own characters for use in UDK:

UT3_Male.max (3D Studio Max 9)
UT3_Female.max (3D Studio Max 9)
UT3_Krall.max (3D Studio Max 9)
UT3_Corrupt.max (3D Studio Max 2009) "

i'm not sure how much of a default it is, but this is the picture of the male one.

http://udn.epicgames.com/Three/rsrc/Three/UDKCustomCharacters CH/Male_Bones.jpg

So i don't know if this post is useful in the least.

  • 04.01.2012 10:19 PM PDT
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Now, do those actually resemble anything that he's been talking about? No. They're just taken from Unreal Tournament 3. In fact, I'm willing to bet that it would be easier to start from scratch than to use this for a model that looks completely different to this one.

When someone creates a model for a game they go into 3ds Max/a modeling program of their choice and then important it. This has nothing to do with the actual engine. It doesn't matter what the skeletons in the examples are like.

[Edited on 04.01.2012 10:27 PM PDT]

  • 04.01.2012 10:25 PM PDT

alrighty then.

  • 04.01.2012 10:35 PM PDT

Bring Back Rocket Race!!!


Posted by: Dr Syx
Now, do those actually resemble anything that he's been talking about? No. They're just taken from Unreal Tournament 3. In fact, I'm willing to bet that it would be easier to start from scratch than to use this for a model that looks completely different to this one.

When someone creates a model for a game they go into 3ds Max/a modeling program of their choice and then important it. This has nothing to do with the actual engine. It doesn't matter what the skeletons in the examples are like.


But developers can choose to use the examples included with the engine (default models) and all they'd have to do is add textures. It'd save them a lot of time with having to create a whole new model and skeletal structure. Hence the prevelance of bulkier characters. What was in those screenshots is a bit bulkier than what I had in mind, but if you look at the basic skeletal structure underneath, you can start to see why it would cause bulkiness.

I know for a fact that regardless of who uses the UDK, it will always come with some samples to help developers get started. You can choose to continue building off of those samples to save time, or you can disregard it and make your own. The reason why developers prefer to license a game engine instead of creating a brand new engine from scratch everytime they want to make a game, is because it saves them a lot of time and money. Therefore, that means the game engine already has the basics laid out. That's why there's consistency between games of the same engine. And therefore, brings up the possibility that bulky character models could be the default one.

As for the concept art, yes, it could've been how they originally intended it to be. Or, because they've already used the engine so many times before that they've gotten used to working with the larger skeletal structure and thus their concept art reflects that.

[Edited on 04.02.2012 12:07 PM PDT]

  • 04.02.2012 12:02 PM PDT
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Yeah. That's right. I don't have a 50 in H3. I never got Onyx in Reach. If a game sucks too much, I won't even bother trying for such trivial "accolades". Besides, I've done way more things that take far more skill and talent than anything that can be done in a video game.

Posted by: General Heed
But developers can choose to use the examples included with the engine (default models) and all they'd have to do is add textures.

Uh, no, they can't. The engine itself can be used, but resources like UT3's models can't be just ripped from that game and put into a new commercial game without explicit permission from Epic Games. There's only one game where you'll find any of those sample models or a skeleton; UT3.

Besides, as I said before, modders' version of the UE3DK =/= developer version of the UE3DK.

  • 04.02.2012 1:00 PM PDT
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My God you're persistent. Every single one of the characters that are bulky are meant to be bulky in the games you're listing. Developers hire people who do model work and they wouldn't pay them just to copy/paste models like this. In fact, those examples are set there in a download, not inside the actual development kit.

It's not hard to create a skeletal structure and I've never seen any game from a developer with one of these same assets. Anyone that knows the development of games knows that this isn't the case. These characters were meant to be bulky and skeletal models are not the fault of the engine. Definitely seeing as though they're developed outside of the engine.

You can't even see reason in this. You're just too damned embarrassed to admit you were wrong about it. It's so bad I've even stopped laughing at it.

  • 04.02.2012 3:39 PM PDT

Bring Back Rocket Race!!!


Posted by: Dr Syx
My God you're persistent. Every single one of the characters that are bulky are meant to be bulky in the games you're listing. Developers hire people who do model work and they wouldn't pay them just to copy/paste models like this. In fact, those examples are set there in a download, not inside the actual development kit.

It's not hard to create a skeletal structure and I've never seen any game from a developer with one of these same assets. Anyone that knows the development of games knows that this isn't the case. These characters were meant to be bulky and skeletal models are not the fault of the engine. Definitely seeing as though they're developed outside of the engine.

You can't even see reason in this. You're just too damned embarrassed to admit you were wrong about it. It's so bad I've even stopped laughing at it.


Then going back to the Halo Engine, for the game Stubbs the Zombie which used the Halo Engine, you could tell they re-used a lot of configurations from the Halo Engine when it was used in Halo 1. Not only were the death animations and physics the same, but you could tell the zombies were just re-textured flood with slightly modified animations. Yeah the engine was modified to be a bit more advanced than the original Halo Engine, however, you could still tell it's the Halo Engine.

If the developers re-used Flood skeletal structures and basic designs, then why is it impossible that other developers did a similar thing with the Unreal Engine?

  • 04.02.2012 7:06 PM PDT
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Yeah. That's right. I don't have a 50 in H3. I never got Onyx in Reach. If a game sucks too much, I won't even bother trying for such trivial "accolades". Besides, I've done way more things that take far more skill and talent than anything that can be done in a video game.

Posted by: General Heed
Then going back to the Halo Engine, for the game Stubbs the Zombie which used the Halo Engine, you could tell they re-used a lot of configurations from the Halo Engine when it was used in Halo 1. Not only were the death animations and physics the same, but you could tell the zombies were just re-textured flood with slightly modified animations. Yeah the engine was modified to be a bit more advanced than the original Halo Engine, however, you could still tell it's the Halo Engine.

If the developers re-used Flood skeletal structures and basic designs, then why is it impossible that other developers did a similar thing with the Unreal Engine?

That's a bold claim. I'm sure you can provide examples.

Well, go ahead.

  • 04.02.2012 7:11 PM PDT

Bring Back Rocket Race!!!


Posted by: DusK
Posted by: General Heed
Then going back to the Halo Engine, for the game Stubbs the Zombie which used the Halo Engine, you could tell they re-used a lot of configurations from the Halo Engine when it was used in Halo 1. Not only were the death animations and physics the same, but you could tell the zombies were just re-textured flood with slightly modified animations. Yeah the engine was modified to be a bit more advanced than the original Halo Engine, however, you could still tell it's the Halo Engine.

If the developers re-used Flood skeletal structures and basic designs, then why is it impossible that other developers did a similar thing with the Unreal Engine?

That's a bold claim. I'm sure you can provide examples.

Well, go ahead.


If you've played Stubbs the Zombies before, you wouldn't question that statement. In interviews with developers, they were asked how they've used and improved on the engine. They said the changes they made were mainly with graphics and AI. They said what was included with the engine was already good enough to power their game.

http://news.teamxbox.com/xbox/7627/Stubbs-the-Zombie-Intervie w/

That means the developers used a lot of the "default" features of the Halo Engine when they developed Stubbs the Zombie. One such example is the death positions. In all the Halo games including Stubbs the Zombie, there is always a default death position that happens when ragdoll is not present for some reason. This usually happens after an explosion and the body will land and adjust into a standard position. This was the best example I could find on short notice:

http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20110119005016/halo/ima ges/7/7c/Halo_3_grunt_death_position_Large.jpg

It doesn't matter what character model dies, this death position will apply to any character model including the ones from Stubbs the Zombie. I like to call it the Halo 1 death position since it first appeared in halo 1. Since then, it appears in every Halo game including Halo: Reach.

So that's an example of a similarity between all the games that use the Halo Engine. It's clearly a default setting and was not added in by design in every Halo game or Stubbs the Zombie. That death position also does not appear in games that do not use the Halo Engine, much like how the style of bulkiness in Unreal games do not appear in non-Unreal games.

So while I may still be speculating about Unreal Engine, it's not totally farfetched that the developers decided to keep a lot of default settings in the engine. Otherwise, they might as well just start from scratch and create a brand new engine.

  • 04.02.2012 7:41 PM PDT
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There are no "default settings" in the engine. There are examples in beginner tutorials that no professional model designer would ever pay attention to. There are tons of other versions they can download if they feel like being lazy. Creating/Modifying models are not a part of an engine's development kit.

It's obvious you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. First you say this, then you start claiming that Halo 2 Vista dropped from the #1 spot on GFWL out of no where for no clear reason, then you claim Reach was "too balanced", then you say mouse versus controller is debatable for FPS games, then you say that Microsoft would have liked to show that the 360 controller was proven inferior to the mouse. I hope you're trolling with this because you have to be the ultimate example of ignorance on these forums.

[Edited on 04.02.2012 8:15 PM PDT]

  • 04.02.2012 8:00 PM PDT

Bring Back Rocket Race!!!


Posted by: Dr Syx
There are no "default settings" in the engine. There are examples in beginner tutorials that no professional model designer would ever pay attention to. There are tons of other versions they can download if they feel like being lazy. Creating/Modifying models are not a part of an engine's development kit.

It's obvious you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. First you say this, second you start claiming that Halo 2 Vista dropped from the #1 spot on GFWL out of no where for no clear reason, then you claim Reach was "too balanced". I hope you're trolling with this because you have to be the ultimate example of ignorance on these forums.


The how do you explain the consistency of death animations across all games that use the Halo Engine?

If you followed Major Nelson's Xbox Live Activity charts, you'll see Halo 2 Vista pretty much suddenly dropped. The other person in that thread was kind enough to post the necessary links. Major Nelson is the only source I need for this. You can't deny what he posts.

Halo: Reach most definitely is way too balanced. The addition of reticule bloom and vehicle health are all examples of how Halo: Reach has become way too balanced compared to the previous Halo games. And I'm only comparing Halo: Reach to Halo games, I'm not comparing it to Call of Duty or anything else. And of all the Halo games so far, Halo: Reach is definitely the most balanced, to the point where it's over balanced. Now this is just my opinion, others may argue otherwise, but it seems you're the type that doesn't allow other people's opinions unless they agree with your own opinions.

  • 04.02.2012 8:14 PM PDT
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Posted by: General Heed
The how do you explain the consistency of death animations across all games that use the Halo Engine?
The hell does this have to do with the discussion at hand? They used Halo's engine along with assets from Halo. No one is debating this with you.

If you followed Major Nelson's Xbox Live Activity charts, you'll see Halo 2 Vista pretty much suddenly dropped. The other person in that thread was kind enough to post the necessary links. Major Nelson is the only source I need for this. You can't deny what he posts.I posted showing links that say Halo 2 Vista was going between 7th - 10th in 2009. That shows it was never at the #1 spot on those lists. You're just making -blam!- up.

Halo: Reach most definitely is way too balanced. The addition of reticule bloom and vehicle health are all examples of how Halo: Reach has become way too balanced compared to the previous Halo games. And I'm only comparing Halo: Reach to Halo games, I'm not comparing it to Call of Duty or anything else. And of all the Halo games so far, Halo: Reach is definitely the most balanced, to the point where it's over balanced. Now this is just my opinion, others may argue otherwise, but it seems you're the type that doesn't allow other people's opinions unless they agree with your own opinions. I just... I just can't believe you're being serious. You might think I'm just being an -blam!- saying people who have differing opinions than mine are wrong but this is absolutely crazy. To actually say Reach was the most balanced Halo game to be released is insanity. Definitely to say bloom added balance... I just... I... You're trolling. I've decided it. You're just coming back to the forums to troll. You got me.

[Edited on 04.02.2012 8:22 PM PDT]

  • 04.02.2012 8:21 PM PDT

Bring Back Rocket Race!!!


Posted by: Dr Syx

Posted by: General Heed
The how do you explain the consistency of death animations across all games that use the Halo Engine?
The hell does this have to do with the discussion at hand? They used Halo's engine along with assets from Halo. No one is debating this with you.

If you followed Major Nelson's Xbox Live Activity charts, you'll see Halo 2 Vista pretty much suddenly dropped. The other person in that thread was kind enough to post the necessary links. Major Nelson is the only source I need for this. You can't deny what he posts.I posted showing links that say Halo 2 Vista was going between 7th - 10th in 2009. That shows it was never at the #1 spot on those lists. You're just making -blam!- up.

Halo: Reach most definitely is way too balanced. The addition of reticule bloom and vehicle health are all examples of how Halo: Reach has become way too balanced compared to the previous Halo games. And I'm only comparing Halo: Reach to Halo games, I'm not comparing it to Call of Duty or anything else. And of all the Halo games so far, Halo: Reach is definitely the most balanced, to the point where it's over balanced. Now this is just my opinion, others may argue otherwise, but it seems you're the type that doesn't allow other people's opinions unless they agree with your own opinions. I just... I just can't believe you're being serious. You might think I'm just being an -blam!- saying people who have differing opinions than mine are wrong but this is absolutely crazy. To actually say Reach was the most balanced Halo game to be released is insanity. Definitely to say bloom added balance... I just... I... You're trolling. I've decided it. You're just coming back to the forums to troll. You got me.


I must've been thinking about Halo 2 Xbox then. I know one of those two remained number 1 for a awhile. Even if Halo 2 Vista was the one that wasn't #1, it still dropped off the list quite suddenly.

As for the death animations from Halo Engine, Dusk was asking me to verify the claims that there's cosistency between all games that use Halo Engine and that developers probably re-used or used the default assets. Stubbs the Zombie having Halo 1 death animations is the same situation as characters in Unreal games having bulky style armor or bodies.

If you don't think Reticule Bloom or Vehicle Health adds balance to a game, then please tell me what does make a Halo game more balanced. In fact, enlighten me about which Halo game is the most balanced out of the entire series (excluding ODST and Wars).

  • 04.02.2012 8:45 PM PDT
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Yeah. That's right. I don't have a 50 in H3. I never got Onyx in Reach. If a game sucks too much, I won't even bother trying for such trivial "accolades". Besides, I've done way more things that take far more skill and talent than anything that can be done in a video game.

Posted by: General Heed
The how do you explain the consistency of death animations across all games that use the Halo Engine?

That one's easy; Wideload Games is headed by a former Bungie employee (a co-founder, no less) and consists of numerous ex-Bungie employees, so they're free to do whatever the hell they want with the Halo engine's assets.

Still waiting for an example of games using the UE3 engine "using sample models" or some crap like that you've been going on about for the past couple of pages. Whenever you're ready, no rush or anything.

Or you can peruse those countless examples of UE3 games we've provided again. You know, the ones that completely prove your "consistency of bulky characters across all games using UE3" theory completely false.

I recommend the latter. :)

  • 04.02.2012 9:15 PM PDT
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Posted by: General Heed
In fact, enlighten me about which Halo game is the most balanced out of the entire series (excluding ODST and Wars).
It's either Halo: Combat Evolved or Halo 3. Before you start on it, the pistol is a balanced weapon. It's difficult to get three shot kills with it unlike the rest of the games where you're most likely going to always get a four shot kill. Pretty much the same thing for Halo 3.

I'm not going to get into how terrible bloom is in Halo: Reach. That has been discussed into the ground and I know you're going to give me some completely idiotic reason why it's an amazing system. The first part was for anyone else who might be interested in my opinion towards what I think is the most balanced Halo game. Not like anyone cares anyways.

For the rest of the crap about the UE3 engine/Halo engine discussion, it would just be a carbon copy of what DusK said.

[Edited on 04.02.2012 9:30 PM PDT]

  • 04.02.2012 9:29 PM PDT