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  • Subject: Unexplainable errors in the Halo canon. (Spoilers)
Subject: Unexplainable errors in the Halo canon. (Spoilers)

Nice thread, Maybe 343 will use it in the future,

  • 06.12.2011 4:23 PM PDT


Posted by: TheGreenAlloy


Quote from colonel Holland during long night of solace:
"we've flagged a covenant corvette on a predicted docking course with the super carrier..."

Do you still disagree?

  • 06.12.2011 9:53 PM PDT

If you can read this, that means I'm not a Shaolin monk...

yet.


Posted by: otterboyz

Posted by: TheGreenAlloy


Quote from colonel Holland during long night of solace:
"we've flagged a covenant corvette on a predicted docking course with the super carrier..."

Do you still disagree?

I didn't disagree, I asked whether or not it was on it's way.

  • 06.13.2011 4:16 AM PDT
  • gamertag: Moirai
  • user homepage:

Posted by: otterboyz

Quote from colonel Holland during long night of solace:
"we've flagged a covenant corvette on a predicted docking course with the super carrier..."

Do you still disagree?


Indeed he does. No question about it. But let's have a look at the possible 'logic' flow that could have made them arrive at this particular assumption:

Subordinate: "Sir, we've spotted a Covenant corvette!"
Superior: "A corvette, eh? What's it doing?"
Subordinate: "Ah...it's currently heading in the direction of the Covenant supercarrier, sir."
Superior: "Really..? How convenient... Well, that can only mean one thing..."
Subordinate: "Which is, sir?"
Superior: "It's going to dock with it."
Subordinate: "Er...we don't know that, sir. There could be other reasons why..."
Superior: "Don't be stupid, son. It stands to reason that it will be."
Subordinate: "But, sir. There could be any number of valid tactical reasons why it's heading back towards the supercarrier. It might have even been directly recalled back into formation by the carrier commander himself. We simply don't know..."
Superior: "Shut up, son. I'm thinking. Hmmm...so if it's going to dock with it, that can only be for one reason... Refuelling! Damn it, we've got them! All we need to do is attack that corvette in plain sight of the supercarrier and hijack it, plant the bomb on it and then send it on a automated refuelling run. That will be the perfect cover. Ha ha... Those dumb Covies won't know what hit them!"
Subordinate: "Er, sir? How do we know they have a 'automated refuelling' procedure...?"
Superior: "Stop asking dumb questions, son. Of course they do. Yup. It's as clear as day. That corvette is definitely on a predictable track for docking. Flag it as such and then pass it up the chain to Holland."
Subordinate: "Jeez. Whatever..."

Yup. Works for me... -_-

  • 06.13.2011 7:16 AM PDT

If you can read this, that means I'm not a Shaolin monk...

yet.


Posted by: Moirai
Posted by: otterboyz

Quote from colonel Holland during long night of solace:
"we've flagged a covenant corvette on a predicted docking course with the super carrier..."

Do you still disagree?


Indeed he does. No question about it. But let's have a look at the possible 'logic' flow that could have made them arrive at this particular assumption:

Subordinate: "Sir, we've spotted a Covenant corvette!"
Superior: "A corvette, eh? What's it doing?"
Subordinate: "Ah...it's currently heading in the direction of the Covenant supercarrier, sir."
Superior: "Really..? How convenient... Well, that can only mean one thing..."
Subordinate: "Which is, sir?"
Superior: "It's going to dock with it."
Subordinate: "Er...we don't know that, sir. There could be other reasons why..."
Superior: "Don't be stupid, son. It stands to reason that it will be."
Subordinate: "But, sir. There could be any number of valid tactical reasons why it's heading back towards the supercarrier. It might have even been directly recalled back into formation by the carrier commander himself. We simply don't know..."
Superior: "Shut up, son. I'm thinking. Hmmm...so if it's going to dock with it, that can only be for one reason... Refuelling! Damn it, we've got them! All we need to do is attack that corvette in plain sight of the supercarrier and hijack it, plant the bomb on it and then send it on a automated refuelling run. That will be the perfect cover. Ha ha... Those dumb Covies won't know what hit them!"
Subordinate: "Er, sir? How do we know they have a 'automated refuelling' procedure...?"
Superior: "Stop asking dumb questions, son. Of course they do. Yup. It's as clear as day. That corvette is definitely on a predictable track for docking. Flag it as such and then pass it up the chain to Holland."
Subordinate: "Jeez. Whatever..."

Yup. Works for me... -_-

You're stretching it a bit, but it's probably still fairly accurate.

  • 06.13.2011 11:24 PM PDT

I am all our makers once held dear: [Alexandria before the Fire].

((Farewell Halo 2! You will not be forgotten! Farewell!))

Here's just one thing (out of many things) that bother me about Halo: Reach.

So as we all know, in the original events of The Fall of Reach, Reach fell in a single day (a matter of hours to be precise) and that day was August 30th.
The Covenant attacked with about 300 warships against Reach's defenses, which included about 120 UNSC warships and 20 MAC-platforms. It takes 7 UNSC destroyers to match one Covie destroyer, and heavy human casualties always ensue. Those numbers are from memory so they might be a little off.
I'm also given to understand from an earlier comment that the number of Covie warships was changed from about 300 to about 700. I will point out that is not totally random. In Halo 2 when the prophet Regret arrives at Earth with his 15 ships, Lord Admiral Hood says, "Something's not right; the fleet that destroyed Reach was 50 times this size." If you take 15 and multiply it by 50, you get 750. But since TFoR originally stated the number to be about 300, I took Hood's statement to be hyperbole. Guess they decided to make that literal. Whatever.

Wow, where was I? Oh, right--Halo: Reach plotholes--specifically the assault on Reach as depicted in the game.

This is what we know about the Covenant's battle strategy: they overwhelm their enemies with great numbers and superior technology, proceed to glass the planet, then leave without so much as blinking. The only time they've ever diverged from this path is when there is something of interest, namely, Forerunner artifacts. They then go about overwhelming their opponents with great numbers and superior technology, then NOT glassing the planet but sending excavation teams and what-have-you. This is how they conducted the assault on Reach.
This is what bothers me. In the game, Reach is invaded towards the end of July and does not fall until approximately one month later. This is stupid for so many reasons. Where do I start?
Since I've already devoted about 2000 characters to Covenant attack methodology, I really should stick to that.
So the game opens with Noble Team investigating a downed relay outpost thinking it might be Insurrectionists trying to steal some ships. Since I've mentioned "Innies", as they are colloquially called, I might as well mention that this in itself is a little silly because Reach is the second most important planet after Earth AND it is the quintessential military fortress world of the entire UNSC. Their main shipyards are there and it's home to the top-secret Spartan-II Program, as well as other military projects. You know how every centimeter of ground in and around Area 51 is (or was) guarded and monitored by satellites and Lord knows what else? Imagine the same thing for Reach only with 500-year-future tech on a planetary scale. Not to mention an overwhelming military presence, including ONI CASTLE Base. Talk about security. This is the UNSC's most fortified planet next to Earth, and (at this point in the timeline) the last line of defense between the Covenant and our homeworld. The idea of Innies (who are extremely insignificant at this point) infiltrating Reach is contrived to say the least. If they're looking for freighters or cargo, why not just hit one of the less fortified UNSC worlds if that's all you need; there were 800 of them--though, admittedly, I don't know how many of those were left by 2552, but I find it hard to believe the Covenant got them all (800!). Their chances of finding a non-glassed colony world are much higher than cracking Reach's security.

Wow, side-tracked again. That's how plot-hole ridden Halo: Reach is.

So with everything I have said in mind, the Covenant somehow managed to sneak a small fleet passed Reach's outer defenses, all so they could build a landing zone and their Zealots could look for relics... whaaat?
Putting aside a number of new problems this creates, this is the most inefficient way for the Covenant to handle the problem when we know they are capable of carrying out a much faster and more efficient method. What they do in the Reach game is an incredible waste of time, resources, and troops when all they have to do is overwhelm the UNSC's defenses in a matter of hours, THEN they can search for artifacts. There is no reason for them to hold back their 300 (or 750) ships. What, is mobilization a problem? There's no need to rush, they have time and Reach isn't going anywhere. They also have thousands more ships at their disposal they can use. Yikes, Covies, hold your horses...

I could end this here, but frankly, I'm just getting started.

The other problems this raises are issues with canon, Covenant technology, and consistency (that seems to be a major theme here).
Let's look at the Covenant's procedure to Reach-domination in the game:

I. The Covenant sneaks a small fleet of an unspecified number of corvettes and one assault carrier past the defenses of Reach using, according to Halo Waypoint, a variation of their cloaking technology.
II. They simultaneously knock out a relay creating a blind spot in the security grid for 26 hours (Reach has a 27 hour day, but I guess that's neither here nor there); the blind spot allows them to
III. have their Zealots search for Forerunner artifacts and
IV. build more stealth pylons, giving them precious hours so they can continue to build a landing zone and teleportation towers for a surprise invasion after potentially having the relay brought back online.

This plan is good... if you don't think about it too hard. I'll tackle each problem numerically as presented.

I. Now remember everything I said about Reach's defenses in addition to what I'm about to say. Up until Halo: Reach there has NEVER, in any other piece of canon, been mention of the Covenant possessing cloaking technology for their ships; not for their corvettes and definitely not so for something as massive as an assault carrier. You might say, cloak tech for Covie ships doesn't sound that far-fetched, and you'd be right but for one thing: it isn't necessary anyway. Covie ships can perform slipspace jumps with unprecedented precision. They could pop up right next to you and you'd be non the wiser until it's too late. It is its own sneak and surprise mechanic; what's better than cloaking? Not being in physical space! But there's one problem: even UNSC scanners can pick up objects traveling through slipspace long before they exit (See TFoR), so if slipspace doesn't work, how on earth would a cloaking mechanic be any more effective? (Not only that, but the Covies didn't realize they could jump into atmosphere with their own technology at that time, but that's a moot point anyway.)
II. Knocking out the relay is a redundancy with problem I.
III. N/A
IV. Up until this game, NOWHERE in the canon have the Covenant possessed teleportation technology. That was strictly Forerunner. I suppose I might be able to believe it if the towers collectively created a crude portal similar to the Forerunner Gate on Earth so that more Covenant ships could slip through, but unfortunately that's not how the towers work. Each appears to be an individual teleporter for ground troops specifically from... the assault carrier?
Whaaaat...?
Why not just use your bloody gravity lift? Look, even if it's not for that specific carrier, it's still a moot point because of everything else I have brought up.

So in short, the ENTIRE plot of Halo: Reach is undone by the fact that the Covenant could have easily steamrolled over Reach, THEN search for their stupid Forerunner crap.

I could conclude this analysis here, but frankly... you guessed it... I'm just getting started.

In conclusion (for now), Halo: Reach is a plot-hole ridden mess that disregards and disrespects the (nearly) flawlessly told story that Eric Nylund laid down in the first place. The fact alone that the UNSC now suddenly holds out against the Covenant at Reach for a little over a month either insults or degrades the Covenants former strength which maims the tension and disparity we originally felt over the Human-Covenant War in The Fall of Reach novel.

Now I'm going to bed. I'm tired.

[Edited on 06.14.2011 7:32 AM PDT]

  • 06.14.2011 1:24 AM PDT



Posted by: Moirai
Posted by: otterboyz

Quote from colonel Holland during long night of solace:
"we've flagged a covenant corvette on a predicted docking course with the super carrier..."

Do you still disagree?


Indeed he does. No question about it. But let's have a look at the possible 'logic' flow that could have made them arrive at this particular assumption:

Subordinate: "Sir, we've spotted a Covenant corvette!"
Superior: "A corvette, eh? What's it doing?"
Subordinate: "Ah...it's currently heading in the direction of the Covenant supercarrier, sir."
Superior: "Really..? How convenient... Well, that can only mean one thing..."
Subordinate: "Which is, sir?"
Superior: "It's going to dock with it."
Subordinate: "Er...we don't know that, sir. There could be other reasons why..."
Superior: "Don't be stupid, son. It stands to reason that it will be."
Subordinate: "But, sir. There could be any number of valid tactical reasons why it's heading back towards the supercarrier. It might have even been directly recalled back into formation by the carrier commander himself. We simply don't know..."
Superior: "Shut up, son. I'm thinking. Hmmm...so if it's going to dock with it, that can only be for one reason... Refuelling! Damn it, we've got them! All we need to do is attack that corvette in plain sight of the supercarrier and hijack it, plant the bomb on it and then send it on a automated refuelling run. That will be the perfect cover. Ha ha... Those dumb Covies won't know what hit them!"
Subordinate: "Er, sir? How do we know they have a 'automated refuelling' procedure...?"
Superior: "Stop asking dumb questions, son. Of course they do. Yup. It's as clear as day. That corvette is definitely on a predictable track for docking. Flag it as such and then pass it up the chain to Holland."
Subordinate: "Jeez. Whatever..."

Yup. Works for me... -_-


This makes UNSC command sound like idiots, but anyway they claimed it was on a predicted docking cause with the super carrier, they never said it was know it was going to dock from the information they gathered that the corvette was the only ship returning to the carrier making it unlikely that it was to be called into formation. And why else would a corvette that isn't supposed to be deployed independently through the lack of shields and the need of refueling other than to dock with the corvette?

Also, refueling wasn't mentioned up until right before you had to initiate it. Not having an automated refueling system in place would cause major damage to the ships if anything went wrong. If it wasn't automated then you would be control of a people that can make mistakes anytime where as a pre-placed automated system would be free of human error. Also the button for the refueling track was most likely for gameplay purposes but that doesn't mean that it wouldn't need to be refueled.


[Edited on 06.14.2011 1:56 AM PDT]

  • 06.14.2011 1:54 AM PDT
  • gamertag: Moirai
  • user homepage:

Posted by: otterboyz
Posted by: Moirai

(Snipped to bring down post size)

Yup. Works for me... -_-


This makes UNSC command sound like idiots, but anyway they claimed it was on a predicted docking cause with the super carrier, they never said it was know it was going to dock from the information they gathered that the corvette was the only ship returning to the carrier making it unlikely that it was to be called into formation. And why else would a corvette that isn't supposed to be deployed independently through the lack of shields and the need of refueling other than to dock with the corvette?

Also, refueling wasn't mentioned up until right before you had to initiate it. Not having an automated refueling system in place would cause major damage to the ships if anything went wrong. If it wasn't automated then you would be control of a people that can make mistakes anytime where as a pre-placed automated system would be free of human error. Also the button for the refueling track was most likely for gameplay purposes but that doesn't mean that it wouldn't need to be refueled.


Yes, that does make them sound a bit stupid, I agree. That said, I was exaggerating somewhat, in a slightly tongue in cheek manner, purely to make an important point. That being, that the whole plan was utterly ludicrous right from the start. How did Kat imagine they were going to get this contrived 'bomb' near the supercarrier in the first place? That, as Holland, would have been my first question when the idea was presented to me. Answer...they don't know. The whole 'plan' should have been rejected as ludicrous and unfeasable from a military perspective, simply because it relies on way too many assumptions, and events to occur that are outside the UNSC's control, to even consider it having the slightest possibility of real world success.

Unfortunately, there are so many illogical events in the story that it's difficult to know where to start really. But let's roll back a bit for a moment. Back to the first event in the game that made me seriously raise an eyebrow. Tip of the Spear.

Six and Jun have eyeballed a Covenant invasion army on Reach. A grave and serious threat indeed. So, how does the UNSC decide to tackle this? Do they pound the area with long distance ordinance (orbital MAC platforms) to smash as much of the army as possible and put them into a state of complete disarray, which would be a smart military tactic? Nope. Instead, within hours of discovering it, they charge in with tanks and Warthogs and guys with assault rifles... Now that is truly idiotic, and has the potential for a great and unnecessary loss of life.

Dot (AI) says right at the start of Tip of the Spear that the origin of this large Covie invasion army is currently unknown. So any smart commander, or person even, would have put two and two together and realised that there must be one or more currently unknown Covie ships at Reach offloading them somehow. And that is an even more scary and dangerous prospect. But, no. That serious story issue/possibility is very quickly passed over in game to allow for gameplay. Story-wise though, not taking that into account is a display of military incompetence bordering on criminal.

Point being, it has already been shown in game that the MAC platforms can be incredibly accurate with their fire, witnessing that they can easily hit a corvette from orbit, and not only that, a 'moving' corvette. So punching a bunch of rounds into a large stationary army should be a piece of cake. It would have also had the added advantage of revealing the supercarrier, which would have taken a number of those rounds, and given them the opportunity of taking that out as well while it was hamstrung by being in atmosphere and unable to slipspace jump away. It is also possible that, mortally wounded by MAC fire, that it would have crashed to the surface taking out a large proportion of it's own army.

However, that doesn't happen because Reach, as presented in the game, is the most badly defended military stronghold ever. From what we're shown in the game, it appears that it only has one MAC platform and two frigates defending it. And why would we accept that? Because Holland green lights the most ridiculous plan ever in the circumstances to take out a Covenant ship. Why would a seasoned military commander go along with some gung-ho B movie idea like that if they have a defence network of heavy MAC platforms and around a hundred ships available to them? The supercarrier was out on a limb on its own with no heavy support, and against the firepower that the UNSC should have been able to bring to bear on it, pretty much defenceless.

But no, game canon trumps book canon and so none of that deeply layered defensive infrastructure exists. So we end up having to accept this other wacky idea to take out the supercarrier because some twit left the planet helpless defence-wise, and we now have to wait for a large chunk of the UNSC fleet to huff and puff its way to Reach.

Reach isn't some outlying colony world where we have to 'hold the line' until the military arrive to save us. It is the heart of the UNSC's military power, according to the blurb on the back of the game box. Well, given that all that 'power' appears to amount to squat against one Covenant supercarrier, one has to ask how humans have survived for so long in this war.

To suggest that any of this unbelievable nonsense is anything other than a framework for gameplay is just...unbelievable.

For all its fantastic set pieces and the obvious love and attention that has been put into Halo Reach from a gameplay perspective, the story is just...bad. I consider it to be a wasted opportunity for covering a truly memorable event in the war, and one that could have not only been believable but stayed within established canon.

(Whoops. Edited for correction of typos...)

[Edited on 06.14.2011 1:05 PM PDT]

  • 06.14.2011 6:25 AM PDT

Posted by: Moirai
All of this is true except not once has there a SMAC been fired into atmosphere (in fact I don't think it can) also when you take out those covie AA guns if you stay around the cliff (first AA gun) a frigate flies by and takes out the remaining covenant forces in the area so there was Orbital assistance. Also from what I understand the spires are able to teleport dropships filled with troops, visually cloak the supercarrier, and provide a shield that doubles as an emp field. This shield may have been strong enough to resist orbital bombardments.

As for the LNoS not being shot down by SMACs, it was too close to Reach's atmosphere. Although I agree Bungie could have done a much better job on the story.

Edit: y'know that stealth pylon you put a bomb in on Nightfall and everyone refers to the area your in as the "dark zone"? Do you think this jammed up UNSC sensors allowing the Supercarrier to stay concealed?

[Edited on 06.14.2011 4:21 PM PDT]

  • 06.14.2011 4:16 PM PDT

A: Reach was not invaded in July. It was invaded after the LNOS. That is when the battle starts. So it's more like 2 weeks/ 2 weeks + and not a month.
B: For Reach to fall in a matter of hours makes the UNSC -blam!- retarded and the Covenant gods. Why?

1: Dropships flew into atmosphere, took massive loses.
2: Said dropships deploy OVERWHELMING ground forces at the generator complexes, and UNSC High Command.

Why is this odd?

A: Dropships must have skipped regrouping and figuring out what they have remaining instantly.
B: UNSC typically wins ground battles. Covenant assaulting fortified positions increases win chances.
C: Where was the UNSC Air force? The AA guns? Apparently all those Skyhawks with 4 50mm Cannons EACH sat in bases and didn't even attack the Covenant aircraft.
D: I heard it would take a spirit, moving at top safe speed, 7 hours to travel from pole to equator. Add in delays due to UNSC air forces, defenses, and searching for those high value locations, + the fact Reach is bigger then Earth... you come out to no way in hell of the generators falling within 2-4 hours.

[Edited on 06.14.2011 4:37 PM PDT]

  • 06.14.2011 4:36 PM PDT


Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron
A: Reach was not invaded in July. It was invaded after the LNOS. That is when the battle starts. So it's more like 2 weeks/ 2 weeks + and not a month.
B: For Reach to fall in a matter of hours makes the UNSC -blam!- retarded and the Covenant gods. Why?

1: Dropships flew into atmosphere, took massive loses.
2: Said dropships deploy OVERWHELMING ground forces at the generator complexes, and UNSC High Command.

Why is this odd?

A: Dropships must have skipped regrouping and figuring out what they have remaining instantly.
B: UNSC typically wins ground battles. Covenant assaulting fortified positions increases win chances.
C: Where was the UNSC Air force? The AA guns? Apparently all those Skyhawks with 4 50mm Cannons EACH sat in bases and didn't even attack the Covenant aircraft.
D: I heard it would take a spirit, moving at top safe speed, 7 hours to travel from pole to equator. Add in delays due to UNSC air forces, defenses, and searching for those high value locations, + the fact Reach is bigger then Earth... you come out to no way in hell of the generators falling within 2-4 hours.



Can't the time the generators fell be stretched out to a day or two now that Reach fell in a month?

  • 06.14.2011 5:05 PM PDT


Posted by: Moirai

Snip


There is a dark zone around the landing zone that you attack and the reconnaissance from noble 6 and Jun show that it's heavily defended and has numerous AA guns that would gut UNSC craft of any type.

Having orbital strikes would be inefficient because of the shielding around the spires which covenant forces could use as shelter and the vast size of the dark zone and not knowing exactly where you should be hitting. also the fact that there is civilian mining sites and possibly would be civilian casualties if a very inefficient orbital strike where to take place.

The whole reason for the mission of Tip of the spear was to get to the spire and deactivate it's shielding for an attack on it by the only know UNSC ship to be able to effectively work in atmosphere as a combat support role.

Use of SMAC cannons in atmosphere is nonsensical as it would result in the destruction of the planet, something the UNSC don't want.

  • 06.14.2011 5:25 PM PDT


Posted by: Spartan IJS
Here's just one thing (out of many things) that bother me about Halo: Reach.

So as we all know, in the original events of The Fall of Reach, Reach fell in a single day (a matter of hours to be precise) and that day was August 30th.
The Covenant attacked with about 300 warships against Reach's defenses, which included about 120 UNSC warships and 20 MAC-platforms. It takes 7 UNSC destroyers to match one Covie destroyer, and heavy human casualties always ensue. Those numbers are from memory so they might be a little off.
I'm also given to understand from an earlier comment that the number of Covie warships was changed from about 300 to about 700. I will point out that is not totally random. In Halo 2 when the prophet Regret arrives at Earth with his 15 ships, Lord Admiral Hood says, "Something's not right; the fleet that destroyed Reach was 50 times this size." If you take 15 and multiply it by 50, you get 750. But since TFoR originally stated the number to be about
300, I took Hood's statement to be hyperbole. Guess they decided to make that literal. Whatever.

Wow, where was I? Oh, right--Halo: Reach plotholes--specifically the assault on Reach as depicted in the game.

This is what we know about the Covenant's battle strategy: they overwhelm their enemies with great numbers and superior technology, proceed to glass the planet, then leave without so much as blinking. The only time they've ever diverged from this path is when there is something of interest, namely, Forerunner artifacts. They then go about overwhelming their opponents with great numbers and superior technology, then NOT glassing the planet but sending excavation teams and what-have-you. This is how they conducted the assault on Reach.
This is what bothers me. In the game, Reach is invaded towards the end of July and does not fall until approximately one month later. This is stupid for so many reasons. Where do I start?
Since I've already devoted about 2000 characters to Covenant attack methodology, I really should stick to that.
So the game opens with Noble Team investigating a downed relay outpost thinking it might be Insurrectionists trying to steal some ships. Since I've mentioned "Innies", as they are colloquially called, I might as well mention that this in itself is a little silly because Reach is the second most important planet after Earth AND it is the quintessential military fortress world of the entire UNSC. Their main shipyards are there and it's home to the top-secret Spartan-II Program, as well as other military projects. You know how every centimeter of ground in and around Area 51 is (or was) guarded and monitored by satellites and Lord knows what else? Imagine the same thing for Reach only with 500-year-future tech on a planetary scale. Not to mention an overwhelming military presence, including ONI CASTLE Base. Talk about security. This is the UNSC's most fortified planet next to Earth, and (at this point in the timeline) the last line of defense between the Covenant and our homeworld. The idea of Innies (who are extremely insignificant at this point) infiltrating Reach is contrived to say the least. If they're looking for freighters or cargo, why not just hit one of the less fortified UNSC worlds if that's all you need; there were 800 of them--though, admittedly, I don't know how many of those were left by 2552, but I find it hard to believe the Covenant got them all (800!). Their chances of finding a non-glassed colony world are much higher than cracking Reach's security.

Wow, side-tracked again. That's how plot-hole ridden Halo: Reach is.

So with everything I have said in mind, the Covenant somehow managed to sneak a small fleet passed Reach's outer defenses, all so they could build a landing zone and their Zealots could look for relics... whaaat?
Putting aside a number of new problems this creates, this is the most inefficient way for the Covenant to handle the problem when we know they are capable of carrying out a much faster and more efficient method. What they do in the Reach game is an incredible waste of time, resources, and troops when all they have to do is overwhelm the UNSC's defenses in a matter of hours, THEN they can search for artifacts. There is no reason for them to hold back their 300 (or 750) ships. What, is mobilization a problem? There's no need to rush, they have time and Reach isn't going anywhere. They also have thousands more ships at their disposal they can use. Yikes, Covies, hold your horses...

I could end this here, but frankly, I'm just getting started.

The other problems this raises are issues with canon, Covenant technology, and consistency (that seems to be a major theme here).
Let's look at the Covenant's procedure to Reach-domination in the game:

I. The Covenant sneaks a small fleet of an unspecified number of corvettes and one assault carrier past the defenses of Reach using, according to Halo Waypoint, a variation of their cloaking technology.
II. They simultaneously knock out a relay creating a blind spot in the security grid for 26 hours (Reach has a 27 hour day, but I guess that's neither here nor there); the blind spot allows them to
III. have their Zealots search for Forerunner artifacts and
IV. build more stealth pylons, giving them precious hours so they can continue to build a landing zone and teleportation towers for a surprise invasion after potentially having the relay brought back online.

This plan is good... if you don't think about it too hard. I'll tackle each problem numerically as presented.

I. Now remember everything I said about Reach's defenses in addition to what I'm about to say. Up until Halo: Reach there has NEVER, in any other piece of canon, been mention of the Covenant possessing cloaking technology for their ships; not for their corvettes and definitely not so for something as massive as an assault carrier. You might say, cloak tech for Covie ships doesn't sound that far-fetched, and you'd be right but for one thing: it isn't necessary anyway. Covie ships can perform slipspace jumps with unprecedented precision. They could pop up right next to you and you'd be non the wiser until it's too late. It is its own sneak and surprise mechanic; what's better than cloaking? Not being in physical space! But there's one problem: even UNSC scanners can pick up objects traveling through long before they exit (See TFoR), so if slipspace doesn't work, how on earth would a cloaking mechanic be any more effective? (Not only that, but the Covies didn't realize they could jump into atmosphere with their own technology at that time, but that's a moot point anyway.)
II. Knocking out the relay is a redundancy with problem I.
III. N/A
IV. Up until this game, NOWHERE in the canon have the Covenant possessed teleportation technology. That was strictly Forerunner. I suppose I might be able to believe it if the towers collectively created a crude portal similar to the Forerunner Gate on Earth so that more Covenant ships could slip through, but unfortunately that's not how the towers work. Each appears to be an individual teleporter for ground troops specifically from... the assault carrier?
Whaaaat...?
Why not just use your bloody gravity lift? Look, even if it's not for that specific carrier, it's still a moot point because of everything else I have brought up.

So in short, the ENTIRE plot of Halo: Reach is undone by the fact that the Covenant could have easily steamrolled over Reach, THEN search for their stupid Forerunner crap.

I could conclude this analysis here, but frankly... you guessed it... I'm just getting started.

In conclusion (for now), Halo: Reach is a plot-hole ridden mess that disregards and disrespects the (nearly) flawlessly told story that Eric Nylund laid down in the first place. The fact alone that the UNSC now suddenly holds out against the Covenant at Reach for a little over a month either insults or degrades the Covenants former strength which maims the tension and disparity we originally felt over the Human-Covenant War in The Fall of Reach novel.

Now I'm going to bed. I'm tired.



Someone wanna help me make a new batch of plothole filling?

  • 06.14.2011 7:08 PM PDT
  • gamertag: Moirai
  • user homepage:

Posted by: otterboyz
There is a dark zone around the landing zone that you attack and the reconnaissance from noble 6 and Jun show that it's heavily defended and has numerous AA guns that would gut UNSC craft of any type.


Indeed.


Having orbital strikes would be inefficient because of the shielding around the spires which covenant forces could use as shelter and the vast size of the dark zone and not knowing exactly where you should be hitting. also the fact that there is civilian mining sites and possibly would be civilian casualties if a very inefficient orbital strike where to take place.


Well:

a) We know that Covie shielding is not indestructible, so yes, it can be knocked out by MAC rounds. But also see my comment lower down on the spire shielding.
b) They do know where the army is. It is not an unknown. And given, as I mentioned before, they can hit a moving corvette from orbit, why would they now be incapable of hitting a stationary target of a far larger size?
c) Which civilians? The whole area you pass through on your way to discover the invasion army is overrun by Covie forces. The only humans still alive that you meet are the small bunch you come across that are using the 'stolen' UNSC equipment, and they were miles from the invasion army. The chances of any civvies having survived and being anywhere close enough to that army to get killed by placed MAC rounds is slim to none.

Besides, even if for some reason there were a few pockets of civvies around that were somehow managing to fight off the scouting Covenent forces and were close to the army, I'm sure that the benefits of hitting the Covenent invasion army hard and inflicting huge amounts of damage to it would outweigh any comparatively small civvy losses and be considered acceptable collateral damage from a military standpoint.


The whole reason for the mission of Tip of the spear was to get to the spire and deactivate it's shielding for an attack on it by the only know UNSC ship to be able to effectively work in atmosphere as a combat support role.


The spire you 'disable', by switching it off, is simply the first of three. Three very clearly obvious and stationary domes of energy that could have been targeted and punched out from orbit in the exact same way the Corvette was taken out.

Besides, even if one were to discount the use of orbital rounds, the 'shielding' around the spires is clearly not of the fully impenetrable type, given that they were able to fly a Falcon straight through it. It was described by DOT as being some kind of electromagnetic cloaking shield, hence the Falcon losing control to flight systems and crashing after passing through it. So, based on that in-game info, there was nothing to stop the Grafton from smashing the spire, or any of the three at those distances, with MAC rounds in the first place, and without the need to switch off its EM 'shield'.

Out of interest, where, in game, does it state that the Grafton is the only UNSC vessel available at Reach capable of in atmosphere work? I'm happy to accept that as being so, if it actually states it somewhere.


Use of SMAC cannons in atmosphere is nonsensical as it would result in the destruction of the planet, something the UNSC don't want.


My comments regarding orbital strikes were based on what is both mentioned and shown in game. That said, I'm not aware of any examples in Halo stories where an SMAC has been fired at a planet and caused its destruction. If you can point me at that info, I'd be genuinely obliged. Ta... :)

That said, higher up in your post you stated that orbital rounds would be ineffective because the Covies could just hide under their shields. I don't see how they can be both ineffective against their shields and catastrophic to the planet at the same time. :/

However...in game, DOT mentions at the start of the ONI Sword base mission that, 'Due to the sensitive nature of this facility, use of orbital rounds is, for the moment, prohibited.'. Note that she says, 'for the moment'.

If, in game, the use of SMAC's for ground strikes was potentially catastrophic then there would be no reason for DOT to even bring up the subject of it being an limited option or the subsequent use of that option when the situation allowed for it.

Given that they subsequently hit and destroy the Corvette with a single orbital round once it has been harried far enough away from the base by a pair of Longswords, they are clearly not only prepared to use orbital strikes but can do so with deadly accuracy.

Maybe it was a round fired at less than full power...? That's an unknown, unfortunately. But they do take out the Corvette with an ODP.

So is game canon or book canon correct here? Or any canon, to be honest.

That's rhetorical, btw. :P

Actually, that said, I can just imagine Johnson replying with: "Son, the only canon I'm interested in is one that kills those Covie sons of -blam!-es!"

The biggest problem with this kind of discussion is that if the story writer screws up, contradicts themselves or just gets things plain wrong, it is we, the end users, that are left trying to make some kind of sense of it all.

I've been in a similar situation before, back in early 2003, when I started a thread on HBO's forums regarding two pieces of dialogue in HALO: CE where Cortana clearly appears to lie to Foe Hammer regarding the reason for the Autumn's engines going critical at the end of the game. If you have the time and are interested, the thread is here:

http://forums.bungie.org/halo/archive7.pl?read=187716

Eventually, Louis Wu responded with the following, making my point far more succinctly:

http://forums.bungie.org/halo/archive7.pl?read=189320

All that eventually prompted one of the guys who worked on the story to send me an email stating, 'Well spotted. Not many people notice that kind of thing.' and it turned out to be just a mistake on Bungie's part. It happens, but can generate a whole heap of intricate discussion because of it.

Anyway...back on topic. :)


[Edited on 06.15.2011 11:30 AM PDT]

  • 06.15.2011 10:30 AM PDT


Well:

a) We know that Covie shielding is not indestructible, so yes, it can be knocked out by MAC rounds. But also see my comment lower down on the spire shielding.
b) They do know where the army is. It is not an unknown. And given, as I mentioned before, they can hit a moving corvette from orbit, why would they now be incapable of hitting a stationary target of a far larger size?
c) Which civilians? The whole area you pass through on your way to discover the invasion army is overrun by Covie forces. The only humans still alive that you meet are the small bunch you come across that are using the 'stolen' UNSC equipment, and they were miles from the invasion army. The chances of any civvies having survived and being anywhere close enough to that army to get killed by placed MAC rounds is slim to none.


a)The strength of the spire's shielding is just speculation as of now but I believe that if it was able to be taken out with a MAC strike than the Grafton would of used it's MAC cannon before two Spartans went in to deactivate it instead of after the shields were gone.
b)The dark zone around the spires was fairly large given from the cut scene where it was depicted. That and the fact that MACs are typically more of 'precision' ship based weapon and and not used for sweeping tactics on land targets.
c) True

The spire you 'disable', by switching it off, is simply the first of three. Three very clearly obvious and stationary domes of energy that could have been targeted and punched out from orbit in the exact same way the Corvette was taken out.

Besides, even if one were to discount the use of orbital rounds, the 'shielding' around the spires is clearly not of the fully impenetrable type, given that they were able to fly a Falcon straight through it. It was described by DOT as being some kind of electromagnetic cloaking shield, hence the Falcon losing control to flight systems and crashing after passing through it. So, based on that in-game info, there was nothing to stop the Grafton from smashing the spire, or any of the three at those distances, with MAC rounds in the first place, and without the need to switch off its EM 'shield'.


I would like to assume that since the Grafton only used it's MAC cannon after the shield was down is because it couldn't penetrate it other wise, but in the end this is all speculation which won't go anywhere so maybe we should stop on the power of the shielding, for now.

Out of interest, where, in game, does it state that the Grafton is the only UNSC vessel available at Reach capable of in atmosphere work? I'm happy to accept that as being so, if it actually states it somewhere.

When i said this i was talking about frigates in general. Frigates which are the largest UNSC ship seen in any game to be able to 'hover' in atmosphere by itself, providing effect combat support.

My comments regarding orbital strikes were based on what is both mentioned and shown in game. That said, I'm not aware of any examples in Halo stories where an SMAC has been fired at a planet and caused its destruction. If you can point me at that info, I'd be genuinely obliged. Ta... :)

SMACs have a kinetic energy output equivalent to 51.6 gigatons of tnt. i may have exaggerated a bit about the destruction of the planet but that kind of force that is exerted from the impact has to go somewhere, which will turn the surrounding land into hundreds of millions of tons of ash and dust vented high into the atmosphere, causing nuclear winter on the UNSC most vital planet after earth.

When I said it was ineffective i was refearing to regular ship based MAC cannons as using a SMAC cannon on the ground is suicide.

However...in game, DOT mentions at the start of the ONI Sword base mission that, 'Due to the sensitive nature of this facility, use of orbital rounds is, for the moment, prohibited.'. Note that she says, 'for the moment'.

If, in game, the use of SMAC's for ground strikes was potentially catastrophic then there would be no reason for DOT to even bring up the subject of it being an limited option or the subsequent use of that option when the situation allowed for it.

Given that they subsequently hit and destroy the Corvette with a single orbital round once it has been harried far enough away from the base by a pair of Longswords, they are clearly not only prepared to use orbital strikes but can do so with deadly accuracy.

Maybe it was a round fired at less than full power...? That's an unknown, unfortunately. But they do take out the Corvette with an ODP


I believe that when she mentioned orbital strikes she could mean anything, a ship based MAC, a SMAC or a rock thrown from high orbit, it could mean anything. I'm not sure an ODP took out that corvette from the power of the MAC strike and the angle of which it came at.

So is game canon or book canon correct here? Or any canon, to be honest.

That's rhetorical, btw. :P

Actually, that said, I can just imagine Johnson replying with: "Son, the only canon I'm interested in is one that kills those Covie sons of -blam!-es!"


I like to see some one has a sense of humor here :P

  • 06.15.2011 5:27 PM PDT

The only thing that really bugs me is the lack of Orbital MAC's......

  • 06.15.2011 8:49 PM PDT

Also, Spartan IJS, it was a super-carrier, not an assault carrier, which actually proves your point even more......

  • 06.15.2011 8:57 PM PDT

I am all our makers once held dear: [Alexandria before the Fire].

((Farewell Halo 2! You will not be forgotten! Farewell!))


Posted by: USArmyRanger7RB
Also, Spartan IJS, it was a super-carrier, not an assault carrier, which actually proves your point even more......


Can you blame me, they look the same. LOL!

"'Kay, this is what I found--for confirmation purposes:

The assault carrier is 5,346 metres (17,540 ft) and the super carrier is... geez...

Yeah, when that thing destroyed the frigate at then end of Tip of the Spear I get the feeling we were suppose to think, "Oh crap," but instead my first reaction was, "How do you miss something that big?"
Now that I've seen the numbers, really, how do you miss something THAT BIG?

Rhetorical question. :P

  • 06.15.2011 11:09 PM PDT

Betrayals:196 and counting dont make me mad!!

Ima pretend i read all of that

  • 06.16.2011 12:56 AM PDT

"NO REST NO MERCY NO MATTER WHAT!"

Not to forget that in the halo First strike novel Halsey first discovers the spartan 3's by hacking ackersons/oni's computers How would she even know about them in halo reach. And again how the data even survived the cole protocal Plus the chief took a covenant Profit ship, and the halo data was also deleted from cortana and halsey has it. Wouldnt removing data that was that massive restore the life span of cortana. All of these are in the First strike book. Then they added the lame idea that cortana made a copy of herself and left it with halsey so she could upgrade her, when she first discovered an ai copying program on the profit ship by destroying and storing the code of a covenant ai ( I think it was a captured UNSC ai but thats just my oppinion) It also doesnt explain how Jun survived reach and left with halsey, where is he in the novels. Red team found halsey in the basement of sword base (that may be false cuz it said Oni base was named CASTLE) Then dont even get my started on the whole poa breaking the time and space errors (thats what I call it) At least the FoR novel explained Black team saying 3 spartans were to far away to be recalled, and in cole protocal there is the 3 spartan team (which was made b4 the mjolnir armor was given to the spartans)

  • 06.16.2011 2:19 PM PDT

Brains beats brawn get used to it

Fear the Red Comet

Variety is the spice of life.
Long live games.
Death to all fanboys.


Posted by: Knives Uchiha
Not to forget that in the halo First strike novel Halsey first discovers the spartan 3's by hacking ackersons/oni's computers How would she even know about them in halo reach. And again how the data even survived the cole protocal Plus the chief took a covenant Profit ship, and the halo data was also deleted from cortana and halsey has it. Wouldnt removing data that was that massive restore the life span of cortana. All of these are in the First strike book. Then they added the lame idea that cortana made a copy of herself and left it with halsey so she could upgrade her, when she first discovered an ai copying program on the profit ship by destroying and storing the code of a covenant ai ( I think it was a captured UNSC ai but thats just my oppinion) It also doesnt explain how Jun survived reach and left with halsey, where is he in the novels. Red team found halsey in the basement of sword base (that may be false cuz it said Oni base was named CASTLE) Then dont even get my started on the whole poa breaking the time and space errors (thats what I call it) At least the FoR novel explained Black team saying 3 spartans were to far away to be recalled, and in cole protocal there is the 3 spartan team (which was made b4 the mjolnir armor was given to the spartans)


I think you've misread into a lot of things.

First off, the Spartan III thing was already explained away in the journal. Halsey had no idea that the Spartan IIIs existed, though has always suspected that ONI started up a Spartan project without her supervision much to her annoyance. Unfortunately for her, ONI did a relatively good job of preventing her from delving deeper into the truth. The appearance of Noble Team does not tell Halsey that SIIIs exist, but instead inform her that there indeed was another Spartan class made. In relation to the novel First Strike this changes nothing. If anything it makes it more clear why the SIII file catches Halsey's eye even more so than just seeing the stored records of her Spartan IIs in Ackerson's files as she now has the chance to finally dig into what she was unable to for so long.

The Cole Protocol only applies to navigational data leading to human populated worlds or actions that would compromise the location of such worlds. Onyx does not fall into that. What you're thinking of is Operation: Whiteglove, which was the act of deleting all sensitive records of data pertaining to anything. Something that the Cole Protocol does not cover. Halsey was the one put in charge of wiping that data. So it would be her that would wipe the sensitive data once she deems it necessary.

Cortana didn't "copy" herself on Reach. She split herself instead. There's a difference.

Jun's fate is still left open at this time. He either died while on route to Castle or got to Castle and was tasked with doing something else. Either way it's a loose end that's still left open because no one else at Bungie or 343i has taken the time to explain it yet.

Did you pay attention to the game? Halsey left Sword base for Castle at the end of "The Package" level. Red team would still ultimately find her there.

Black team did not exist when The Fall of Reach was made. Even then, she is referring to Gray team, not Black.

And no, Spartan IIs already had Mk 4 armor by the time the Human Covenant war was in full swing. They received it shortly after receiving word that Harvest was destroyed, and before Cole took his fleet to battle the Covenant ship there. The Cole Protocol was made some time into the war after that.

  • 06.16.2011 2:35 PM PDT

"NO REST NO MERCY NO MATTER WHAT!"

The 3 spartans were sent out before john recieved the mark IV, As for the color of the team thats an easy book mistake in an interview with the author of that bookthey said that they did not read into most of the history fiction I will post the link to it when I find it again.

[Edited on 06.16.2011 2:52 PM PDT]

  • 06.16.2011 2:49 PM PDT

"I may not be perfect, but always been true."


Posted by: Knives Uchiha
The 3 spartans were sent out before john recieved the mark IV, As for the color of the team thats an easy book mistake in an interview with the author of that bookthey said that they did not read into most of the history fiction I will post the link to it when I find it again.


Gray Team =/= Black Team.

  • 06.16.2011 3:12 PM PDT

I really want to know how the covenant were able to get teleportation technology on their spires.

  • 06.16.2011 6:36 PM PDT

Brains beats brawn get used to it

Fear the Red Comet

Variety is the spice of life.
Long live games.
Death to all fanboys.


Posted by: Knives Uchiha
The 3 spartans were sent out before john recieved the mark IV, As for the color of the team thats an easy book mistake in an interview with the author of that bookthey said that they did not read into most of the history fiction I will post the link to it when I find it again.


Everyone received Mk IV armor at the same time. There is no link to post because there is no discussion to be had on this point of thought period.

There is a Gray team featured prominently in Cole Protocol. There is a Black team featured prominently in the Blunt Instruments short story in Halo Evolutions as well as a stand alone comic Bloodline.

There is no "mistake" in this regard unless we're counting you misreading information from the books which appears to be the case.

[Edited on 06.16.2011 6:52 PM PDT]

  • 06.16.2011 6:52 PM PDT