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This topic has moved here: Subject: Unexplainable errors in the Halo canon. (Spoilers)
  • Subject: Unexplainable errors in the Halo canon. (Spoilers)
Subject: Unexplainable errors in the Halo canon. (Spoilers)

If this auto-win technology existed, why was it not used in the invasion of Earth? Instead of boarding and manually destroying the MAC guns a single cloaked carrier would have been able to destroy all of them (and it still would have taken the UNSC seven days to realize they were missing and the planet was being glassed).

Because "Guy with Halo Bible" is frelling inconsistent with his own universe.

First, he approved Nylund's timeline, which Halo 2 and all the novels derived theirs from.

And now you have Halo reach, which singlehandedly retcons the "logical" parts of the EU and replaces it with a weak storyline filled with plotholes, thereby causing further inconsistencies with the other novels and lore.

Seriously, I bet a million dollars, either me or someone else knowledgable in the EU coulda have written a far better storyline for Reach while sticking to canon.

  • 09.21.2010 10:53 PM PDT

The Forerunner, the Great Journey, and Heaven Theory

[Announcement Trailer] Halo: Forerunner

Posted by: Agustus
I lol'd at the absurd miscommunication that occurs whenever dibbs post something. Perhaps his brain is so highly evolved that he can no longer clearly communicate with lesser life forms, even among his own species.

Posted by: Cheeto666
Because for the most part, the Covenant never plans an attack. They just happen upon a planet. They send out a battle group on a mission, usually to recover artifacts. Of course, they mistake forerunner artifacts for us.
At Earth, Regret (not to mention all of the Covenant) had no idea that they were going to Earth. Which is why they had such a small fleet.
Posted by: dibbs089
I've never been one to follow specific details all that closely but lets just think about this logically.

There is no way a cloaked Super Carrier could get passed the sensors. If that were the case what would the senors even be used for; why are they even there? If this cloaking technology was as amazing as it appears, why not just permanently cloak every Covenant ship and sustain absolutely no losses while systematically destroying every planet and UNSC ship?

If this auto-win technology existed, why was it not used in the invasion of Earth? Instead of boarding and manually destroying the MAC guns a single cloaked carrier would have been able to destroy all of them (and it still would have taken the UNSC seven days to realize they were missing and the planet was being glassed).
You're missing the point. Why not just be cloaked all the time? Or (if that isn't feasible) just cloak if there are enemy ships / MAC guns right in front of you? It wasn't just Regret that simply neglected to push the "win" button, but Truth as well (along with the entirety of the Covenant Fleet). This leads me to believe that said technology (not being able to be detected while cloaked) doesn't actually exist.

  • 09.21.2010 10:54 PM PDT

On hiding dead bodies:
Posted by: Psuedo
Posted by: teh Chaz
Inside another dead body. It's the last place they'll look
A corpse within a corpse.
CORPSEPTION.
Win.


Posted by: Hysterical Joker

Posted by: P3P5I
Posted by: Hysterical Joker
Posted by: P3P5I
Posted by: Foley vonAwesom
In regards to covenant ships jumping in system through slipspace. In TFoR a monitoring station detects them WITHIN slipspace before the Battle of Cote de Azur (keyes' first Iroquis engagement) takes place. Again, as the covenant ships enter Epsilon Eridanus, and Monitoring station detects them within slipspace.
Further more, the physics are explained in First Strike, entering and exiting slipspace unleashes an ungodly amount of radiation that would most assuredly be detected.

But those ships weren't cloaked, only one was that was orbiting around Cote d' Azure. And as for the last sentence, you are assuming there. It has been speculated the Covenant always had this cloaking technology (that can even cloak slipspace distortions) yet never used it due to their naval supremacy (and also it may have to do partly with their "honor" in the field of battle, not sneaking up on the enemy from behind, facing them head-on).

You speculated that. No one else has speculated that they "always had it and didn't use it, cause -blam!- it, we can afford to lose a few ships here and there."

Canon has stated slipspace releases a large amount of radiation. Canon doesn't state cloaking covers this, all discovered cloaked ships were already in the system.

I wasn't lying when I said I was reading other threads.

In Halo Legends the Package (yes it's canon), the ONI Prowler is cloaked and tailing a Covenant fleet. How did it get there undetected you might ask? Wouldn't the Covenant know about the Prowler's transition from slipspace? Your choices are:
a) They didn't because cloaking covers the slip space transition.
b) The ONI Prowler drifted from out of system, evading the Covenant's sensors. This would mean slipspace transitions aren't protected by cloaking.

But the thing is, both of these options can be applied to the super carrier on Reach and the mysterious ship off of Cote d' Azure as well. The super carrier could have drifted from out of the system or out of Reach's sensor array.

Halo Legends is canon after the game, then after the books.
I take it you're also saying it's canon that the Prowler is using Covenant-style cloaking instead of photo-reactive panels? Halsey being fully clothed in the cyro pod? Booster frames? Booster frames with energy shields?

Books(and possibly game) have stated that slipspace ruptures are easy to detect. Might you elaborate how Covenant would have the technology to cloak an entire Supercarrier, and somehow mask it from traveling and exiting slipspace?

Other than it's just "your theory", when it's a hypothesis.
UNSC Prowlers are something of the exception to the rule. In Ghosts of Onyx, Dusk transitions very close to Covenant forces a total of 3 times (5, including exiting the battle zone - in/out at Delta Halo, in/out at Onyx, then into Onyx one last time), and is not once detected.
Either they make so small a rupture, it doesn't release so much radiation; it is only a slipspace entry that releases a radiation flare (as seen in ODST); or the UNSC has some sort of cloaking technology that at the very least, cloaks slipspace radiation emissions.

[Edited on 09.21.2010 11:31 PM PDT]

  • 09.21.2010 11:28 PM PDT


Posted by: JDYeash937 MkII
UNSC Prowlers are something of the exception to the rule. In Ghosts of Onyx, Dusk transitions very close to Covenant forces a total of 3 times (5, including exiting the battle zone - in/out at Delta Halo, in/out at Onyx, then into Onyx one last time), and is not once detected.
Either they make so small a rupture, it doesn't release so much radiation; it is only a slipspace entry that releases a radiation flare (as seen in ODST); or the UNSC has some sort of cloaking technology that at the very least, cloaks slipspace radiation emissions.

If I recall correctly, it utilizes photo-reactive paneling, and it killed its engines and went dark as to not produce any heat, radiation, or project electrical signals that could be picked up. I may be thinking of a different prowler.

Are you sure they jumped in right next to Covenant ships? Could be far enough away, coupled with Prowlers putting out low radiation emissions(they are stealth observation ships) that it seems normal. It doesn't matter if the Covenant discover an outgoing slipspace rupture, they can't do anything about it.

  • 09.21.2010 11:43 PM PDT

It is possible to commit no errors and still lose. That is not a weakness. That is life.

Posted by: chickenlittle
Cheeto is the only one among you that doesn't suck.

Maybe it does. But, like with humanity, it is entirely possible that such technology is in limited supply. Humans have a hard time making ships because Slip drives are difficult and expensive to produce.
A cloaking shield that hides a massive ship like a super carrier (They're anywhere from 3 to 5 KM long, i think) is no small technological wonder. Considering that the Covenant have no ability to innovate, and pretty much just use what was left behind by the forerunners, they might only be able to provide these cloaks for ships that carry highly important figures, or vessels on missions that require perfect stealth capabilities.
Posted by: dibbs089
Posted by: Cheeto666
Because for the most part, the Covenant never plans an attack. They just happen upon a planet. They send out a battle group on a mission, usually to recover artifacts. Of course, they mistake forerunner artifacts for us.
At Earth, Regret (not to mention all of the Covenant) had no idea that they were going to Earth. Which is why they had such a small fleet.
Posted by: dibbs089
I've never been one to follow specific details all that closely but lets just think about this logically.

There is no way a cloaked Super Carrier could get passed the sensors. If that were the case what would the senors even be used for; why are they even there? If this cloaking technology was as amazing as it appears, why not just permanently cloak every Covenant ship and sustain absolutely no losses while systematically destroying every planet and UNSC ship?

If this auto-win technology existed, why was it not used in the invasion of Earth? Instead of boarding and manually destroying the MAC guns a single cloaked carrier would have been able to destroy all of them (and it still would have taken the UNSC seven days to realize they were missing and the planet was being glassed).
You're missing the point. Why not just be cloaked all the time? Or (if that isn't feasible) just cloak if there are enemy ships / MAC guns right in front of you? It wasn't just Regret that simply neglected to push the "win" button, but Truth as well (along with the entirety of the Covenant Fleet). This leads me to believe that said technology (not being able to be detected while cloaked) doesn't actually exist.

  • 09.22.2010 12:25 AM PDT

On hiding dead bodies:
Posted by: Psuedo
Posted by: teh Chaz
Inside another dead body. It's the last place they'll look
A corpse within a corpse.
CORPSEPTION.
Win.


Posted by: Hysterical Joker

Posted by: JDYeash937 MkII
UNSC Prowlers are something of the exception to the rule. In Ghosts of Onyx, Dusk transitions very close to Covenant forces a total of 3 times (5, including exiting the battle zone - in/out at Delta Halo, in/out at Onyx, then into Onyx one last time), and is not once detected.
Either they make so small a rupture, it doesn't release so much radiation; it is only a slipspace entry that releases a radiation flare (as seen in ODST); or the UNSC has some sort of cloaking technology that at the very least, cloaks slipspace radiation emissions.

If I recall correctly, it utilizes photo-reactive paneling, and it killed its engines and went dark as to not produce any heat, radiation, or project electrical signals that could be picked up. I may be thinking of a different prowler.

Are you sure they jumped in right next to Covenant ships? Could be far enough away, coupled with Prowlers putting out low radiation emissions(they are stealth observation ships) that it seems normal. It doesn't matter if the Covenant discover an outgoing slipspace rupture, they can't do anything about it.
They can track it.

I think the ship you're thinking of is Point of No Return, the flagship (if you will) of the ONI Prowler fleet - basically a stealth destroyer/cruiser. That is the one whose stealth capabilities are discussed at length in GoO.

But the first jump, to Delta Halo, they were well within visual range of the Covenant Fleet killing itself.
They were probably too tangled in the Flood and Brutes to bother with a lone, unarmed, human vessel.

The second one, to Onyx, they jumped within 3 million kilometres of the Fleet. In Halo Space Naval Warfare 101, 3 million kilometres is nothing. The Prowler, at one third full speed, is able to close almost 3 million km in 13 minutes.
14 million kilometres is described as "practically next door", and reachable within tens of minutes, and in TFOR, ships are indirectly inferred as capable of 80 million kph. A SPARTAN with thruster pack is capable of 100 million kph, directly stated - and it appears that Archer missiles travel much faster than even that.

The second time they jumped to Onyx was with a UNSC battlegroup, so that doesn't really matter - even if they were detected, they weren't the real threat.

[Edited on 09.22.2010 1:10 AM PDT]

  • 09.22.2010 1:08 AM PDT
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As I recall, the Dusk entered the Onyx system at the far edge, and stealthed into position. (baffles running dark, black on black, ect.) If memory serves, Cmdr. Lash asks his Engineering officer about if the radiation the released dropping out of slipspace fell within acceptable parameters; or something akin to not being detected. I'll have to look that up to be certain.

Also, in the First Halo (The Flood) the PoA, enters the Halo system undetected on the far side, masked by a gas giant. However, the covenant were not expecting company.

I would also like to point out that the way covenant ships transition into and out of slipspace differently from UNSC ships, as explained in FS. However, given the nature of the transition- energy must be released.

  • 09.22.2010 9:31 AM PDT
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Posted by: Achronos
It isn't our shiznit anymore.

Posted by: Hysterical Joker
Halo Legends is canon after the game, then after the books.
I take it you're also saying it's canon that the Prowler is using Covenant-style cloaking instead of photo-reactive panels? Halsey being fully clothed in the cyro pod? Booster frames? Booster frames with energy shields?

Books(and possibly game) have stated that slipspace ruptures are easy to detect. Might you elaborate how Covenant would have the technology to cloak an entire Supercarrier, and somehow mask it from traveling and exiting slipspace?

Other than it's just "your theory", when it's a hypothesis.

I don't think I need to explain how a supercarrier would get cloaked. I doubt any of us have majors in whatever field of science this would be, so looking for specifics is trivial. The most I can do is throw out some generalized explanations.

The Covenant get their tech from the Forerunners, so it shouldn't be too hard to comprehend the Covenant using super advanced technology. If a small Covenant ship off Cote can do it, why not a supercarrier?

Perhaps you have a point that the energy emission from a supercarrier is too hard to cloak (though I'm sure this could be explained given enough thought/retcons), which is why I have a second thought on how the supercarrier got to Reach.

Posted by: Hysterical Joker
Posted by: P3P5I
Actually, another theory I was just thinking about is what if the Covenant used multiple small cloaked ships like the one from Cote to jam or trick the UNSC's sensors into thinking the coast was clear. Then the Super carrier could use a similar cloaking device to pass through the UNSC's defenses that would normally detect the cloaked Supercarrier.

That makes zero sense.
How do multiple cloaked ships trick the sensors into thinking the coast is clear so a cloaked Supercarrier can sneak by?

As we know, the Covenant ship off of Cote is able to scramble targeting solutions for projectiles as well as disrupt a ship's generalized sensors (but not the sensors that specifically scan areas, I explained this with my computer virus analogy). The Covenant can also hack into UNSC communication feeds, as we saw in the second mission of Halo 3, with Truth up on the UNSC big screen t.v.. My guess is the Covenant are using a combination of Engineers and Forerunner tech to engage in this electronic war. Is it really that hard for the Covenant to trick the UNSC Reach sensors into thinking the supercarrier is a void in space (or a UNSC vessel) or altogether jam a portion of the Reach sensor array to allow one Super carrier to pass through unnoticed?

  • 09.22.2010 11:31 AM PDT

Must we give a -blam!-? this is a halo game meant to be played and enjoyed for the enjoyment of playing it ...not the -blam!- story line -__________-

  • 09.22.2010 11:42 AM PDT

On hiding dead bodies:
Posted by: Psuedo
Posted by: teh Chaz
Inside another dead body. It's the last place they'll look
A corpse within a corpse.
CORPSEPTION.
Win.


Posted by: bronzejordan1
Must we give a -blam!-? this is a halo game meant to be played and enjoyed for the enjoyment of playing it ...not the -blam!- story line -__________-
Why did you bother coming in this forum, let alone saying that, in this forum.

This forum is here to discuss, allude to and pick apart storylines of games, books and other canon materials.

  • 09.22.2010 11:57 AM PDT

It is possible to commit no errors and still lose. That is not a weakness. That is life.

Posted by: chickenlittle
Cheeto is the only one among you that doesn't suck.

Wasn't the Carrier teleported? I thought that was the whole point of the Spires was a massive teleporter system.

  • 09.22.2010 12:21 PM PDT


Posted by: A Puzzled Mind
In Halo Legends the Package (yes it's canon), the ONI Prowler is cloaked and tailing a Covenant fleet. How did it get there undetected you might ask? Wouldn't the Covenant know about the Prowler's transition from slipspace? Your choices are:
a) They didn't because cloaking covers the slip space transition.
b) The ONI Prowler drifted from out of system, evading the Covenant's sensors. This would mean slipspace transitions aren't protected by cloaking.

But the thing is, both of these options can be applied to the super carrier on Reach and the mysterious ship off of Cote d' Azure as well. The super carrier could have drifted from out of the system or out of Reach's sensor array.


Congratulations, you caught both 343i and Bungie with their own BS. It was originally stated Slipspace ruptures are easy to detect. There is no such thing as cloaking a slipspace rupture, hence, another inconsistency that scifi writers love to ignore. It's a common theme really. Boast how great your sensors are, then act as if they don't work correctly.

The only way to reconcile this is if you relate slipspace rupture size to the size of the ship. Based on ODST, a SuperCarrier is gonna get its ass caught like a fugitive being spotted by helicopter lights whereas a prowler is so small, it's slipspace rupture is comparable to small Covenant crafts that constantly depart and re-enter splipsace. That's the only conceivable way the Prowler in Legends woulda gotten thru.

And as you mentioned, cloaking only works if you exit slipspace outside their sensor range. For a Prowler size ship, their ping and active cloaking would cover just enough for the Covenant to forget them.

But hello, in Reach, you have a fracking SuperCarrier floating in visual range of all your satellites and the UNSC fleet does nothing to destroy it, which they easily can.


What you have is the UNSC stating that they have a handle on slipspace detection. To date we have no idea of the extent of Covenant knowledge of slipspace technology, or even cloaking technology for that matter. The Covenant is reverse-engineering Forunner technology and they are using Engineers (I can't remember the actual name of the race at the moment) to do it. All 343 has to do is write somewhere that they figured out how to do it prior to the battle of Reach and BINGO! Problem solved.

It is simply not possible to claim expertise in Covenant knowledge and use of Forunner technology. Even after all the games, books, anime, comics, etc. we still have no clue what their limits are. They can put an entire planet inside another planet and created an array that will destroy only sentient life in an entire galaxy. I don't believe a cloaking device that can elude UNSC detection is entirely outside the realm of possibility here.

  • 09.22.2010 1:36 PM PDT


Posted by: A Puzzled Mind


Because "Guy with Halo Bible" is frelling inconsistent with his own universe.

First, he approved Nylund's timeline, which Halo 2 and all the novels derived theirs from.

And now you have Halo reach, which singlehandedly retcons the "logical" parts of the EU and replaces it with a weak storyline filled with plotholes, thereby causing further inconsistencies with the other novels and lore.

Seriously, I bet a million dollars, either me or someone else knowledgable in the EU coulda have written a far better storyline for Reach while sticking to canon.


I don't know who "someone else" might be, but if it's you I just might take that bet.

  • 09.22.2010 1:45 PM PDT

Brains beats brawn get used to it

Fear the Red Comet

Variety is the spice of life.
Long live games.
Death to all fanboys.


Posted by: Cheeto666
Wasn't the Carrier teleported? I thought that was the whole point of the Spires was a massive teleporter system.


The teleporters were used to teleport troops, vehicles, materials, etc, etc from the cloaked Carrier.

  • 09.22.2010 1:45 PM PDT
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Posted by: Stardriver 1

Posted by: A Puzzled Mind
In Halo Legends the Package (yes it's canon), the ONI Prowler is cloaked and tailing a Covenant fleet. How did it get there undetected you might ask? Wouldn't the Covenant know about the Prowler's transition from slipspace? Your choices are:
a) They didn't because cloaking covers the slip space transition.
b) The ONI Prowler drifted from out of system, evading the Covenant's sensors. This would mean slipspace transitions aren't protected by cloaking.

But the thing is, both of these options can be applied to the super carrier on Reach and the mysterious ship off of Cote d' Azure as well. The super carrier could have drifted from out of the system or out of Reach's sensor array.


Congratulations, you caught both 343i and Bungie with their own BS. It was originally stated Slipspace ruptures are easy to detect. There is no such thing as cloaking a slipspace rupture, hence, another inconsistency that scifi writers love to ignore. It's a common theme really. Boast how great your sensors are, then act as if they don't work correctly.

The only way to reconcile this is if you relate slipspace rupture size to the size of the ship. Based on ODST, a SuperCarrier is gonna get its ass caught like a fugitive being spotted by helicopter lights whereas a prowler is so small, it's slipspace rupture is comparable to small Covenant crafts that constantly depart and re-enter splipsace. That's the only conceivable way the Prowler in Legends woulda gotten thru.

And as you mentioned, cloaking only works if you exit slipspace outside their sensor range. For a Prowler size ship, their ping and active cloaking would cover just enough for the Covenant to forget them.

But hello, in Reach, you have a fracking SuperCarrier floating in visual range of all your satellites and the UNSC fleet does nothing to destroy it, which they easily can.


What you have is the UNSC stating that they have a handle on slipspace detection. To date we have no idea of the extent of Covenant knowledge of slipspace technology, or even cloaking technology for that matter. The Covenant is reverse-engineering Forunner technology and they are using Engineers (I can't remember the actual name of the race at the moment) to do it. All 343 has to do is write somewhere that they figured out how to do it prior to the battle of Reach and BINGO! Problem solved.

It is simply not possible to claim expertise in Covenant knowledge and use of Forunner technology. Even after all the games, books, anime, comics, etc. we still have no clue what their limits are. They can put an entire planet inside another planet and created an array that will destroy only sentient life in an entire galaxy. I don't believe a cloaking device that can elude UNSC detection is entirely outside the realm of possibility here.


Furthermore, the UNSC is capable of detecting covenant ships while they are traversing within slipspace; as evident at two points within TFoR.

If the covenant posseses such comprehension / tech level to pass through slipspace and enter / exit it; as well as be perfectly cloaked in normal space- WHY was this not deployed earlier. Combined with their ability to black out communications; the covenant could have deployed in such a way as to annihilate the human race with the UNSC left looking for ghosts.

The Covies use, but do not understand forerunner tech. Imitative, not innovative. They do not even tamper with it, for religious reasons. It seems the very notion of improving or enhancing their current tech is heresy. (as evident in The Flood)

And once more- suppose the super carrier or corvette does get into orbit. Are we supposed to believe that it has such perfect photo reactive whatever as to completely cloak itself visually within the atmosphere- as well as hide any and all energy emissions rendering it invisible to electronic detection as well; and what about something like a satellite or ship just accidentally colliding with it? Then we're supposed to believe that REACH, a military super center... actually I've brought up this point before and it was explained away with magical bungie science and hand wavium...

Bungie has knotted the rope and is asking for a leap of faith without offering anything in return except frustration.

  • 09.22.2010 2:23 PM PDT


Posted by: Foley vonAwesom


Furthermore, the UNSC is capable of detecting covenant ships while they are traversing within slipspace; as evident at two points within TFoR.


The UNSC thinks it is capable. Perhaps they are not?

If the covenant posseses such comprehension / tech level to pass through slipspace and enter / exit it; as well as be perfectly cloaked in normal space- WHY was this not deployed earlier.

We don't know that it hasn't. The [i]whole[i] story has not been told yet.

Combined with their ability to black out communications; the covenant could have deployed in such a way as to annihilate the human race with the UNSC left looking for ghosts.

Not what they were going for. The Covenant's mission was to find the path to the Great Journey. Doing so would annihilate humans as a matter of course.

And once more- suppose the super carrier or corvette does get into orbit. Are we supposed to believe that it has such perfect photo reactive whatever as to completely cloak itself visually within the atmosphere- as well as hide any and all energy emissions rendering it invisible to electronic detection as well; and what about something like a satellite or ship just accidentally colliding with it? Then we're supposed to believe that REACH, a military super center... actually I've brought up this point before and it was explained away with magical bungie science and hand wavium...

Bungie has knotted the rope and is asking for a leap of faith without offering anything in return except frustration.


Yes. Yes you are. Got a problem with that? Sucks to be you.

  • 09.22.2010 4:14 PM PDT


Posted by: P3P5I
Posted by: Hysterical Joker
Halo Legends is canon after the game, then after the books.
I take it you're also saying it's canon that the Prowler is using Covenant-style cloaking instead of photo-reactive panels? Halsey being fully clothed in the cyro pod? Booster frames? Booster frames with energy shields?

Books(and possibly game) have stated that slipspace ruptures are easy to detect. Might you elaborate how Covenant would have the technology to cloak an entire Supercarrier, and somehow mask it from traveling and exiting slipspace?

Other than it's just "your theory", when it's a hypothesis.

I don't think I need to explain how a supercarrier would get cloaked. I doubt any of us have majors in whatever field of science this would be, so looking for specifics is trivial. The most I can do is throw out some generalized explanations.

The Covenant get their tech from the Forerunners, so it shouldn't be too hard to comprehend the Covenant using super advanced technology. If a small Covenant ship off Cote can do it, why not a supercarrier?

Perhaps you have a point that the energy emission from a supercarrier is too hard to cloak (though I'm sure this could be explained given enough thought/retcons), which is why I have a second thought on how the supercarrier got to Reach.

Posted by: Hysterical Joker
Posted by: P3P5I
Actually, another theory I was just thinking about is what if the Covenant used multiple small cloaked ships like the one from Cote to jam or trick the UNSC's sensors into thinking the coast was clear. Then the Super carrier could use a similar cloaking device to pass through the UNSC's defenses that would normally detect the cloaked Supercarrier.

That makes zero sense.
How do multiple cloaked ships trick the sensors into thinking the coast is clear so a cloaked Supercarrier can sneak by?

As we know, the Covenant ship off of Cote is able to scramble targeting solutions for projectiles as well as disrupt a ship's generalized sensors (but not the sensors that specifically scan areas, I explained this with my computer virus analogy). The Covenant can also hack into UNSC communication feeds, as we saw in the second mission of Halo 3, with Truth up on the UNSC big screen t.v.. My guess is the Covenant are using a combination of Engineers and Forerunner tech to engage in this electronic war. Is it really that hard for the Covenant to trick the UNSC Reach sensors into thinking the supercarrier is a void in space (or a UNSC vessel) or altogether jam a portion of the Reach sensor array to allow one Super carrier to pass through unnoticed?

July 24th 0728 Hours: Covenant found at Visegrad Relay(We can assume these Covenant were transported by the Corvette found and destroyed a bit later).

July 26th: Said Corvette is destroyed by orbital bombardment.

August 12th: Supercarrier discovered after Noble Team destroys the Spire. (Halopedia words it as an "EMP-emitting tower serving as a teleporter linked to a cloaked Supercarrier". Would need to replay the mission and listen to dialogue to discern whether the Supercarrier was cloaking itself, and if the tower was EMP)

Is it possible that the Corvette could've layed these Spires in order to jam UNSC signals until the Carrier gets into orbit? Yes. (Assuming they are in fact EMP spires, and the Supercarrier can cloak itself). However, this does not account for the Corvette's slipspace rupture not being detected(there is no possible way to jam signals or disguise this with cloaking, as it is outside of the ship's emissions.)

In addition, Covenant Supercarriers are 3.3 miles long, I personally don't believe the Covenant have access or the know how to operate a cloaking shield of such magnitude(and the energy required to sustain it long enough).

  • 09.22.2010 4:16 PM PDT
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Posted by: Stardriver 1

Posted by: Foley vonAwesom


Furthermore, the UNSC is capable of detecting covenant ships while they are traversing within slipspace; as evident at two points within TFoR.


The UNSC thinks it is capable. Perhaps they are not?

If the covenant posseses such comprehension / tech level to pass through slipspace and enter / exit it; as well as be perfectly cloaked in normal space- WHY was this not deployed earlier.

We don't know that it hasn't. The [i]whole[i] story has not been told yet.

plausible

Combined with their ability to black out communications; the covenant could have deployed in such a way as to annihilate the human race with the UNSC left looking for ghosts.

Not what they were going for. The Covenant's mission was to find the path to the Great Journey. Doing so would annihilate humans as a matter of course.

Contact Harvest. The great journey is more of a cover to kill off the humans before the covenant underlings realize what they truly are. Being able to walk in the forerunners footsteps is a bonus.

And once more- suppose the super carrier or corvette does get into orbit. Are we supposed to believe that it has such perfect photo reactive whatever as to completely cloak itself visually within the atmosphere- as well as hide any and all energy emissions rendering it invisible to electronic detection as well; and what about something like a satellite or ship just accidentally colliding with it? Then we're supposed to believe that REACH, a military super center... actually I've brought up this point before and it was explained away with magical bungie science and hand wavium...

Bungie has knotted the rope and is asking for a leap of faith without offering anything in return except frustration.


Yes. Yes you are. Got a problem with that? Sucks to be you.

I... what... ?

responses in bold

  • 09.22.2010 4:23 PM PDT
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I'm pretty sure that the Super Carrier itself does not have cloaking abilities. The spires that were installed on Reach were what was cloaking the thing. I believe that Auntie Dot says something along the lines of "The spire was cloaking a Super Carrier" I'll replay the mission again to make sure.
But if that's the case then how did no one see it? And how were the spires built so fast? So confusing.

  • 09.22.2010 5:18 PM PDT


Posted by: cB4d93
I'm pretty sure that the Super Carrier itself does not have cloaking abilities. The spires that were installed on Reach were what was cloaking the thing. I believe that Auntie Dot says something along the lines of "The spire was cloaking a Super Carrier" I'll replay the mission again to make sure.
But if that's the case then how did no one see it? And how were the spires built so fast? So confusing.

July 24th is when the Corvette first gets there, the destruction of the spire occurs August 12th. A little under 3 weeks, plenty of time to construct them, but yes, your other points are valid and ones I ponder myself.

I would appreciate it if you could confirm the following in the mission: Is there mention of EMP capabilities? Is it a teleporter linked to the Carrier? Does it cloak the Carrier?

  • 09.22.2010 5:27 PM PDT
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Posted by: Achronos
It isn't our shiznit anymore.

Posted by: Hysterical Joker
Is it possible that the Corvette could've layed these Spires in order to jam UNSC signals until the Carrier gets into orbit? Yes. (Assuming they are in fact EMP spires, and the Supercarrier can cloak itself). However, this does not account for the Corvette's slipspace rupture not being detected(there is no possible way to jam signals or disguise this with cloaking, as it is outside of the ship's emissions.)

I believe the reason Bungie retconned the Covenant Corvette into canon was for this. Based on what we know, the Corvette was only used during the Battle of Reach. It wouldn't exactly be breaking canon to say the Covenant built this ship specifically for evading UNSC sensors. Kind of like a stealth bomber if you will.

Just a side question: why are we limiting the Covenant's method of travel to Reach to only slip space? Isn't it possible the Covenant Slipspaced far away from the planet/system and just drifted in?

In addition, Covenant Supercarriers are 3.3 miles long, I personally don't believe the Covenant have access or the know how to operate a cloaking shield of such magnitude(and the energy required to sustain it long enough).
Personal opinion noted. :)

  • 09.22.2010 5:42 PM PDT
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Is this the new Reach timeline?

JULY

July 2552: A Covenant supercarrier evades UNSC detection and lands on the human colony and military superpower Reach.

July 24, 2552: Noble Team is ordered by Colonel Urban Holland to investigate suspected Insurrectionist activity at the downed Visegrad Relay. Once on the scene, the team learns that a advanced Covenant strike team had disabled the relay. Winter Contingency is declared.

July 26, 2552: A Covenant corvette attacks ONI SWORD Base. Noble Team is sent to reclaim the facility and give Dr. Halsey key information recovered from the corpse of Dr. Lazlo Sorvad.

AUGUST

August 12th, 2552: The UNSC Army and Noble Team head a strike against Covenant spires. The spires are revealed to be cloaking relays and when one tower is disabled, the previously cloaked Covenant supercarrier is revealed and destroys the UNSC Grafton.

August 14th, 2552: Noble Team retakes the classified Sabre Launch Facility. Noble Six and Jorge-052 along with other Sabre pilots launch into orbit. Using the donated Slipspace drive of the UNSC Savannah, Noble Six and Jorge with a squad of Army soldiers board and plant the drive on a Covenant corvette. Jorge-052 is killed in the resulting Slipspace drive detonation due to him having to manually set it.

Covenant troops attack SWORD Base again, Dr. Catherine Halsey escapes capture by hiding in a secret dig site near Forerunner ruins.

August 23, 2552: New Alexandria is attacked and glassed by Covenant forces. Noble Six and the UNSC Army assist in civilian evacuation operations.

Once regrouped with the rest of Noble Team, Noble Six helps disable Covenant jammers and continue evacuation efforts. Kat-B320 is killed by sniper fire.

August 30, 2552: The Remote Scanning Outpost Fermion detects multiple Slipspace ruptures by a fleet of 314 Covenant vessels.

Admiral Roland Freemont (FLEETCOM Sector One Commander) issues an order to all vessels in the Reach, Jericho, and Tantalus systems to Rally Point ZULU.

Covenant vessels disrupt human efforts to regroup in space with Slipspace jumps, a Covenant Carrier also targets the UNSC Pillar of Autumn but is destroyed.

The Covenant vessels begin a new frontal assault. Covenant and Human fleets engage above Reach, it begins as a stalemate as Covenant ships destroy several human vessels while orbital MAC platforms and human vessels destroy an equal number of Covenant cruisers. A new Covenant supercarrier like the one destroyed by Noble Team enters the system and lays waste to human ships.

Dockmaster AI Doppler fails to implement the Cole Protocol on the UNSC Circumference, an ONI prowler docked at Reach Station Gamma, due to security measures in regards Operation: HYPODERMIC. Doppler sends an SOS due to this issue. The COvenant detect this call for help and send a striek team to seize human NAV data.

The SPARTAN-II soldiers are dispatched from the Pillar of Autumn. Master Chief Petty Officer John-117, Linda-058, and James form Blue Team and rush to the Circumference to destroy it, while the remaining Spartans form Red Team and land on reach to destory teh generators powerign the orbital MAC cannons. James is declared MIA when his thruster pack is compromised by a Needler round and jettisons him into space.

Blue Team rescue Sgt. Johnson, Pvt. O'Brien, Pvt. Bisenti and Pvt. Jenkins.

The Covenant fleets pulls back, but the regroups and decimate the UNSC ships and MAC platforms. The Pillar of Autumn eventually destroys the suppercarrier. Moral falls among UNSC.

Red Team is shot down en-route to the generators, four die and six are critically injured.

John-117 and clinically dead Linda-058 make it back to teh Pillar of Autumn, with Sergeant Johnson, Private O'Brien, Private Bisenti, and Private Jenkins. John-117 enters cryo-sleep.

The Pillar of Autumn begins to retreat, but descends back to Reach at the Aszod ship breaking yard to retrieve a fragment of the AI Cortana.

Red Team sets up defenses around ODG Facility A-331, but the facility is destroyed by Covenant glassing. The MAC cannons go offline and are destroyed by the Covenant.

Fred-104, Joshua-029, and Kelly-087 plant a nuclear warhead through the gravity lift in a landing Covenant cruiser, leaving Joshua-029 MIA, (presumed KIA) in the process.

The remaining members of Noble Team return to SWORD Base and rescue Dr. Halsey. Dr. Halsey is escorted to CASTLE Base by Jun-A266.

Noble Six and Emile-A239 head to the Aszod ship breaking yards to deliver a fragment of Cortana holding important navigation data needed on the Pillar of Autumn. Captain Keyes intercepts the Cortana fragment. Emile-A239 is killed by Elite Zealots while manning a MAC cannon defending the Pillar of Autumn. Noble Six regains control of the cannon and allows the Pillar of Autumn to flee. Noble Six is later killed by Covenant forces in a valiant last stand.

SEPTEMBER

September 7th, 2552

The surviving members of Red Team, Dr. Halsey, and possibly Jun, wander for days in the titanium mines of CASTLE Base.

September 11th-12th? (apparent Slipspace anomaly present), 2552

The Installation 04, Alpha Halo, survivors return to Reach and rescue the Spartans and Dr. Halsey.

About as much sense as I can make it.

  • 09.22.2010 5:44 PM PDT


Posted by: P3P5I
Posted by: Hysterical Joker
Is it possible that the Corvette could've layed these Spires in order to jam UNSC signals until the Carrier gets into orbit? Yes. (Assuming they are in fact EMP spires, and the Supercarrier can cloak itself). However, this does not account for the Corvette's slipspace rupture not being detected(there is no possible way to jam signals or disguise this with cloaking, as it is outside of the ship's emissions.)

I believe the reason Bungie retconned the Covenant Corvette into canon was for this. Based on what we know, the Corvette was only used during the Battle of Reach. It wouldn't exactly be breaking canon to say the Covenant built this ship specifically for evading UNSC sensors. Kind of like a stealth bomber if you will.

Just a side question: why are we limiting the Covenant's method of travel to Reach to only slip space? Isn't it possible the Covenant Slipspaced far away from the planet/system and just drifted in?

In addition, Covenant Supercarriers are 3.3 miles long, I personally don't believe the Covenant have access or the know how to operate a cloaking shield of such magnitude(and the energy required to sustain it long enough).
Personal opinion noted. :)


It would've been detected by Remote Scanning Outpost Fermion. The one that detected the incoming slipspace rupture by the main Covenant fleet en route to Reach.

I cannot find anything on how one might cloak slipspace disruptions. They are very noticeable and emit large, large amounts of radiation. The Remote Scanning Outpost in the star system of Reach should've picked it up. If, for some reason, they drifted in from out of system, their scanners should've picked up its heat emissions, or if they were being jammed, have been able to identify it. Drifting through the system cloaked would've taken forever(Try traversing the entire star system without propulsion.)

Say, once again, the Corvette lays these towers. We know the Covenant are able of precision slipspace jumps, so let's assume it jumped right into orbit and cloaked relatively immediately. That slipspace jump would've been picked up a long time prior by the Remote Outpost.

  • 09.22.2010 6:03 PM PDT

Correct except for the beginning. A Corvette is destroyed before the Supercarrier is revealed, as such, it can be assumed that it was the one carrying the advanced strike force.

Also, I should mention that in the new novel, it is said the Covenant fleet is 700+.
This against the 100 ships present on Reach(with 52 including PoA arriving late), even with the 20 SMACs(Earth had 300), would be a total and utter massacre.

  • 09.22.2010 6:10 PM PDT
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Posted by: Achronos
It isn't our shiznit anymore.

Posted by: Hysterical Joker
It would've been detected by Remote Scanning Outpost Fermion. The one that detected the incoming slipspace rupture by the main Covenant fleet en route to Reach.

I cannot find anything on how one might cloak slipspace disruptions. They are very noticeable and emit large, large amounts of radiation. The Remote Scanning Outpost in the star system of Reach should've picked it up. If, for some reason, they drifted in from out of system, their scanners should've picked up its heat emissions, or if they were being jammed, have been able to identify it. Drifting through the system cloaked would've taken forever(Try traversing the entire star system without propulsion.)

Say, once again, the Corvette lays these towers. We know the Covenant are able of precision slipspace jumps, so let's assume it jumped right into orbit and cloaked relatively immediately. That slipspace jump would've been picked up a long time prior by the Remote Outpost.

I actually like the theory you put up. It would mean only the Corvette would need to evade the UNSC sensors.

Would you mind elaborating on the underlined? How would a jammed (or scrambled) sensor be able to identify objects?

I have no idea why we are talking about the science of slip space technology. FTL travel is probably above the current knowledge of both of us, if Bungie made a retcon that said the Covenant is using Forerunner technology that masks slipspace travel, that should be it for everyone. There would be no canon mistakes because no one fully understands how slip space actually behaves (I mean, the Forerunners built whole planets in slip space. I'm pretty sure they've mastered this technology). Just saying, "Well you can't cloak slip space travel!" doesn't mean anything. Unless you are willing to write me a paper on the physics of slip space and why it can't be masked, you are making baseless assumptions.

  • 09.22.2010 6:18 PM PDT