Bungie Universe
This topic has moved here: Subject: Unexplainable errors in the Halo canon. (Spoilers)
  • Subject: Unexplainable errors in the Halo canon. (Spoilers)
Subject: Unexplainable errors in the Halo canon. (Spoilers)

I am invisible, understand, simply because people refuse to see me.
--Ralph Ellison

Posted by: OrderedComa
Posted by: ODKT Haplo
Posted by: Hysterical Joker
It's simply just very saddening at the utter disregard to prior canon. I understand that Bungie wanted to tell Noble's story because it's easier to get into than the story of the characters if TFoR, but to throw it out the window isn't fair to the diehard fans who delight in piecing together the strands between all the different canon.


amen to that.


Except, as Cobra stated, TFoR hasn't been completely thrown out. The game and the book can be made to connect, you just have to look for the ways it can be done.


I've stated before in this thread that I think the problem people have with Halo: Reach is that it doesn't respect the canon established by TFoR. Sure, it can be made to fit with some retcons and some other unshown things to help it all connect, but why should that be necessary? Bungie disrespected 8 years of established canon IMO. That's what's wrong with Reach IMO.

  • 08.08.2011 12:53 PM PDT

I'm not all that great with halo canon, I just have some questions

-Didn't the covenent just, sort of, stumble on Earth when they were following MC or something?
-What did noble team actually gain from finding the forerunner info and adding it to cortana?
-Can we pretend the PoA was making a pitstop..?

[Edited on 08.13.2011 10:12 AM PDT]

  • 08.13.2011 10:11 AM PDT

~ Life is Killing Me. ~

~ I hate, therefore I am. ~

Games > Books.

It is a series of books made from the games. They games will always take precedence over the books. It's the same as if a new Star Wars movie completely contradicted an established book. The movie is given greater weight, as it is the core medium of advancing the universe.

It's the exact same situation as the Halo Universe.

While yes, Bungie has stated on multiple occasions, that the books are an Official part of the Halo Canon, they also will never render the story of a game as invalid. The games are what the books are based on, not the other way around.

The differences before the retcon weren't that severe anyways.

TFoR is about the Master Chief and the Spartans around him.
Halo: Reach is about Noble Team's action behind the scenes as their support role unfolded.
Besides, they retconned everything thus it all works together.

Jun dies getting Halsey enough time for her ship to launch from Castle Base.

The magnitude of Reach's defenses.

Times and dates.

Dr. Halsey's Journal actually fixed most of the "errors" that most people complain about.

All fixed and the original story was left perfectly intact.

So why can't everyone just chill out and enjoy the deep, detailed Universe created by both mediums?

Before I get flamed, I am a huge, huge fan of both the games as well as the books and canon. After reading and playing all of them since the various retcon's began, I am satisfied with the fixes. The canon is as perfect as it is going to get, and both 343 & Bungie (as well as anyone else who has created a Universe like this) have admitted that no Canon & game will ever match up perfectly.

It isn't possible.

Just enjoy this Universe. It's one of the best ever created IMHO.

  • 08.13.2011 11:01 AM PDT

@accordingto343

Your one stop shop for all of 343's fabulous errors and ridiculous notions in the Halo lore.

Posted by: KoO 101

I've stated before in this thread that I think the problem people have with Halo: Reach is that it doesn't respect the canon established by TFoR. Sure, it can be made to fit with some retcons and some other unshown things to help it all connect, but why should that be necessary? Bungie disrespected 8 years of established canon IMO. That's what's wrong with Reach IMO.


The Fall of Reach was the first piece of expanded universe content we got...10 years ago. Since then the Halo Universe has grown to tremendous size. If you honestly expected everything to always fit and be 100% correct, sci-fi isn't the genre for you.

  • 08.13.2011 11:07 AM PDT

~ Life is Killing Me. ~

~ I hate, therefore I am. ~


Posted by: DecepticonCobra
Posted by: KoO 101

I've stated before in this thread that I think the problem people have with Halo: Reach is that it doesn't respect the canon established by TFoR. Sure, it can be made to fit with some retcons and some other unshown things to help it all connect, but why should that be necessary? Bungie disrespected 8 years of established canon IMO. That's what's wrong with Reach IMO.


The Fall of Reach was the first piece of expanded universe content we got...10 years ago. Since then the Halo Universe has grown to tremendous size. If you honestly expected everything to always fit and be 100% correct, sci-fi isn't the genre for you.


I'm going to vote for this to be the Post of the Day.

Genius.

(no sarcasm, just appreciation.)


[Edited on 08.13.2011 11:13 AM PDT]

  • 08.13.2011 11:13 AM PDT

I want to know where the hell the whole underground complex comes from when you establish a base in Halo Wars. I'd find it easier to overlook as just a convenient gameplay element if the placement of bases wasn't sort of part of the story. The stations that are placed is said to have been a big part of early colonization efforts (its been done outside of this one game). I want to know how the Station could canonically be set up very quickly.

My best guess is that the ground troops might set up the landing pad or a pad isn't necessarily needed, then the station is landed as the in-game animation shows, then the station would serve as a construction center and the ground would be dug out very quickly with some high-tech equipment that comes inside the station and the underground complex and the area around the station itself could be built with construction parts and equipment that also comes inside of the station itself.

[Edited on 08.13.2011 9:59 PM PDT]

  • 08.13.2011 9:41 PM PDT

Signatures are for squares.


Posted by: DecepticonCobra
Posted by: KoO 101

I've stated before in this thread that I think the problem people have with Halo: Reach is that it doesn't respect the canon established by TFoR. Sure, it can be made to fit with some retcons and some other unshown things to help it all connect, but why should that be necessary? Bungie disrespected 8 years of established canon IMO. That's what's wrong with Reach IMO.


The Fall of Reach was the first piece of expanded universe content we got...10 years ago. Since then the Halo Universe has grown to tremendous size. If you honestly expected everything to always fit and be 100% correct, sci-fi isn't the genre for you.


The "10 years ago" argument doesn't really work anymore since we've gotten 2 "new" issues of the Fall of Reach since then. It may be the first "written" canon, but you can't just write it away saying it's 10 years old. 343 has had two chances to fix any errors and it was left (mostly) the way it was in the original. Trying to ignore anything in it because of it's release date isn't a good explanation for anything.

Also, to the guy trying to convince everyone games>books, that IS NOT the case. 343, not Bungie, has said everything is on equal terms. It will all fit together. There is no canon hierarchy. Also, no, Halseys Journal doesn't "Fix most of these errors." I'm just going to assume you haven't actually read the journal. The errors it fixes aren't listed in this thread.

  • 08.13.2011 9:49 PM PDT

I am invisible, understand, simply because people refuse to see me.
--Ralph Ellison

Posted by: DecepticonCobra
Posted by: KoO 101

I've stated before in this thread that I think the problem people have with Halo: Reach is that it doesn't respect the canon established by TFoR. Sure, it can be made to fit with some retcons and some other unshown things to help it all connect, but why should that be necessary? Bungie disrespected 8 years of established canon IMO. That's what's wrong with Reach IMO.


The Fall of Reach was the first piece of expanded universe content we got...10 years ago. Since then the Halo Universe has grown to tremendous size. If you honestly expected everything to always fit and be 100% correct, sci-fi isn't the genre for you.


I don't expect everything to always fit, but it would be nice if the authors/writers/designers/canon-makers would put their best effort into making as much stuff fit with as few ret-cons as is feasible. I don't think that's too much to ask.

I mean, there was some other thread a while back where someone had compiled a PDF with changes to the Reach campaign that could have made it fit with canon far more than it does. Some of those suggestions were very minor and very doable things. Bungie, however, just overlooked them when making Reach.

That's all I'm trying to say. It applies to anyone who writes stuff for the Halo Universe. Make as much fit as best it can. To me it just seems like Bungie didn't try very hard and chose not to respect 8 years of established canon when a lot more could have been done with Reach.

  • 08.13.2011 9:54 PM PDT

@accordingto343

Your one stop shop for all of 343's fabulous errors and ridiculous notions in the Halo lore.

Posted by: KoO 101
To me it just seems like Bungie didn't try very hard and chose not to respect 8 years of established canon when a lot more could have been done with Reach.


So because you don't see it fit means Bungie didn't try hard enough? Nothing wrong with that logic.

  • 08.13.2011 10:34 PM PDT

Reach falling in one day was stupid idea anyway. How the hell is a massive military-based colony completely annihilated in a single day? TFoR was an awesome book, but that's really far-fetched, and Bungie's writers shouldn't be forced to conform to that.

Then there's the 3's that shouldn't be alive in Noble, to which my response is that they were pulled from Alpha to do stuff for Colonel Holland. Is it that hard to believe? Same with the MACs, maybe the only ones in range were decommissioned, or there were none at all. In fact, the Corvette probably placed itself in a position where the MACs wouldn't be hitting deliberately.

Also the same with Pillar of Autumn. It landed, waited for Noble, and took off. There's no reason that couldn't have been accomplished in a few hours, so it would still give the Autumn time to get into space and fulfill it's mission.

I will say that the ages and dates are weird, but that stuff, as well as everything else is so minimal that it's barely reason to discredit the story.

  • 08.13.2011 10:38 PM PDT

I am invisible, understand, simply because people refuse to see me.
--Ralph Ellison

Posted by: DecepticonCobra
Posted by: KoO 101
To me it just seems like Bungie didn't try very hard and chose not to respect 8 years of established canon when a lot more could have been done with Reach.


So because you don't see it fit means Bungie didn't try hard enough? Nothing wrong with that logic.


Please try posting something that isn't sarcastic or condescending. You've picked out one sentence from my entire post and ignored everything else.

What is wrong with that logic anyways aside from the fact that you disagree with me about the canon not fitting as well as it could have? If Bungie had paid more attention to the details, we wouldn't have as many canon problems. That seems like sound logic to me.

This thread is proof that a LOT of people think it doesn't fit as well as it could have. It's my opinion and a number of people share it with me. You have your opinion and people share it with you. Ret-con the previously established canon and come up with our ways of explaining the other things all you want, all that I'm saying is if Bungie had respected the established canon you wouldn't have to do as much of that.

I accept Reach as canon, but I still don't like that I have to do it this way. It could have been done better.

  • 08.14.2011 12:32 AM PDT

I though Bungie said that the Games make the story not the Books !?

  • 08.14.2011 1:29 AM PDT

@accordingto343

Your one stop shop for all of 343's fabulous errors and ridiculous notions in the Halo lore.

Posted by: KoO 101

Please try posting something that isn't sarcastic or condescending. You've picked out one sentence from my entire post and ignored everything else.

What is wrong with that logic anyways aside from the fact that you disagree with me about the canon not fitting as well as it could have? If Bungie had paid more attention to the details, we wouldn't have as many canon problems. That seems like sound logic to me.

This thread is proof that a LOT of people think it doesn't fit as well as it could have. It's my opinion and a number of people share it with me. You have your opinion and people share it with you. Ret-con the previously established canon and come up with our ways of explaining the other things all you want, all that I'm saying is if Bungie had respected the established canon you wouldn't have to do as much of that.

I accept Reach as canon, but I still don't like that I have to do it this way. It could have been done better.


Oh grow a pair. Stop being condescending, sure, I'll stop when people start to post the correct things in the Universe and others stop calling those who correct such mistakes as rude. But that won't happen.

However, you make speculation sound like a bad thing. Everyone insists that Halo: Reach just destroys Halo canon. It has errors, but so far it seems every new piece of Halo lore has them, heck it seems every first edition of books 343 puts out is littered with them and requires a "Definitive" Edition to fix them. But oh so silent on that point the community is, no it's all about Reach.

Yeah there are retcons, but the end result is the same no matter how you slice it. Reach falls, the PoA jumps to Halo, and Halo: CE begins. Nevermind the legitimacy of the events portrayed in the game are called into question since extra contents in the Legendary Edition pretty much say "This is ONI's piecing together of the battle of Reach".

If that's true, then all of you Fall of Reach fans can coddle and praise your dandy book all day long. If not, oh darn you have to speculate. Cry me a goddamn river.

Star Wars: The Clone Wars completely ripped apart the Clone Wars continuity. Yet me and fellow Star Wars fans continue to make sense of the whole thing. Should we have to? No, but we do it because we actually like SW and there is a certain thrill in piecing together this puzzle. Same goes for Fallout 3, that had potential to show the world of Fallout in a new setting, but instead it broke canon just to get it's main selling points in, Super Mutants, Brotherhood of Steel, Enclave, etc. Though I must admit Halo fans are much nicer to Reach than Fallout fans are to FO3.

But yeah, I guess Halo fans have it so rough, to choose between a few hour space battle with ground engagements that didn't do -blam!- or between a longer conflict with ground engagements that bought time. Both ways end the same. Take your pic.

  • 08.14.2011 1:30 AM PDT

I am invisible, understand, simply because people refuse to see me.
--Ralph Ellison

Posted by: DecepticonCobra


Thank you for replying to my point. All I was trying to say is that it would have been appreciated for the game to fit more with canon when it's been established for 8 years. I understand that a lot of the time that isn't possible or practical but it's still appreciated. I don't know about SW so I can't comment on that but I do recall hearing about it and I can imagine it after seeing this forum light up over Reach since its release.

As I'm on vacation now and having a -blam!- of a time typing this up on my phone, I'll bow out of this argument by saying that I do accept Reach as canon and I'm fine with that, I just would have enjoyed it more had it fit with canon better.

  • 08.14.2011 4:48 AM PDT

Signatures are for squares.


Posted by: tktomma
Reach falling in one day was stupid idea anyway. How the hell is a massive military-based colony completely annihilated in a single day? TFoR was an awesome book, but that's really far-fetched, and Bungie's writers shouldn't be forced to conform to that.



And the fact that the UNSC was being overwhelmed by a handful of Corvettes(who lack shielding) isn't far fetched?

Or the fact that Kat stated "the UNSC doesn't have any nukes" despite the fact that every UNSC Destroyer is equipped with 3 nukes and "60%" of the UNSC fleet was a Reach? That's not far fetched?

  • 08.14.2011 8:17 AM PDT


Posted by: privet caboose

Posted by: tktomma
Reach falling in one day was stupid idea anyway. How the hell is a massive military-based colony completely annihilated in a single day? TFoR was an awesome book, but that's really far-fetched, and Bungie's writers shouldn't be forced to conform to that.



And the fact that the UNSC was being overwhelmed by a handful of Corvettes(who lack shielding) isn't far fetched?

Or the fact that Kat stated "the UNSC doesn't have any nukes" despite the fact that every UNSC Destroyer is equipped with 3 nukes and "60%" of the UNSC fleet was a Reach? That's not far fetched?



Or the fact nukes were shown as ineffective against Covenant shields.(concerning the supercarrier)

Or the fact Kat might not know exactly what ships are there.

Still is better then the UNSC ground forces being overwhelmed instantly by hundreds of dropships across the entire world.

Far better then the fact the UNSC had a VERY STRONG ground presence, strong aircraft presence (Skyhawks anybody? 4 50mm cannons and anti-tank missiles), yet it wasn't mobilized ever. The ground defenses, as the book states, were started... when the Covenant dropships arrived.

The airforce was NEVER mobilized or used, despite the fact they could have ripped apart, or at least harrassed heavily, the covenant dropship force.

I'll take the game ground battle over the book ground battle anyday, as the book showed the UNSC as basically stupid IMO.

[Edited on 08.14.2011 9:59 AM PDT]

  • 08.14.2011 9:59 AM PDT
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Posted by: RB GambIer
I though Bungie said that the Games make the story not the Books !?


.....

If such a thing were true, then we can cancel everything from the books out.

Onyx doesn't exist since it wasn't mentioned.
Blue Team is gone.
Halsey is dead.
The Covenant found Earth by Coincidence with a full fighting force.
MC was the only Spartan left.


/end sarcasm

  • 08.14.2011 12:03 PM PDT

In a room filled with kings and queens some days i feel like the jester!...

it's surprising to see I'm not the only one who was disappointed with the way reaches story game play was handled.

seems like with the last 2 halos Bungie just focused on the multi player parts what a shame because this game destroys the mythos that was halo

if it aint broke and all that jazz.....

  • 08.14.2011 5:41 PM PDT


Posted by: privet caboose

Posted by: tktomma
Reach falling in one day was stupid idea anyway. How the hell is a massive military-based colony completely annihilated in a single day? TFoR was an awesome book, but that's really far-fetched, and Bungie's writers shouldn't be forced to conform to that.



And the fact that the UNSC was being overwhelmed by a handful of Corvettes(who lack shielding) isn't far fetched?

Or the fact that Kat stated "the UNSC doesn't have any nukes" despite the fact that every UNSC Destroyer is equipped with 3 nukes and "60%" of the UNSC fleet was a Reach? That's not far fetched?

How were they overwhelmed by the corvettes? It didn't start going real south until until the carriers started showing up. And I don't believe Kat ever says "the UNSC doesn't have any nukes". You might be thinking of Carter when he said "All our nukes are either out-system or went down with the ships that carried them." Nobody ever denies that the UNSC have nukes, or not to my knowledge at least.

[Edited on 08.14.2011 10:34 PM PDT]

  • 08.14.2011 10:32 PM PDT


Posted by: yamahaftw
Ok don't quote me on this as I do agree with your statement, the only thing is, the answers bungie gave us are a tad... unlikley.

1: Bungie stated that, although the invasion didnt happen until the 30th, a scouting force landed on reach between 24th-29th.

ERROR: why then, didnt ONI allready flush every computers nav data, and why didnt they prepare all the apparently non-existant mac cannons and planet-side defences for battle?

2:The explanation for the lack of mac cannons is that they were in space, just not in the area that long night of solace took place!

ERROR: wait, so their saying that reach only had defences on one side?

3: The explanation for cortana on reach is that the Cortana that the chief and the POA was given was a copy, the real Cortana was still on reach helping Dr halsey. When Noble team delivered the real cortana to the POA, the copy and the real one combined, thus making the cortana we know today.

ERROR: The POA shouldnt have been planetside in the first place, see below.

4: The explanation for the pillar of autumn on reach is that the chief and his team were deployed on the circumference as the POA was making its way planetside for "repairs". The Chief was then picked back up on the POA's way off the planet.

ERROR: So the POA landed on reach, got the rocket pod thingies attached to it, got its armour upgraded and got the rest of Cortana delivered to it in under an hour?

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^
Anyway once again, please dont take my word on this but I heard a rumor that halo reach's story was originally going to follow the whole of RED (Johns team) and BLUE (planetside teams) but the story was changed halfway through production because Bungie believed retelling the story of Fall of Reach was boring for the hardcore fans who new the story front to back.

My proof for this is in the video below where you can see from the 09 trailer that James (Spartan 005) is floating in space besides what appears to be the "circumference"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hC7zveMPWek&feature=player _detailpage#t=40s

thankyou for reading my ridiculously long post.


P.S: PAGE 117 WOOT WOOT!


1. How do you know that the Circumference was present at Reach the whole entire time the battle was going on? And besides which, all records of the ships very existence had been wiped from the station, it technically did not exist. In addition, ONI seems to be rather loathe to delete their own data unless absolutely necessary. Like for instance SWORD Base wasn't ordered destroyed until around the 29th. And where the bleeding frakking hell did you get the idea that the SMACs and other ODPs are now nonexistent?

2. No, that's not what they're saying at all. They're saying we can't see the SMACs from where we are on the planet. Do you know how big the area around a planet is? It's pretty damn large, you're not going to be able to see everything in orbit around the planet unless it is a very large object. Like for instance in Halo 2, there are about 200+ ODPs around Earth, yet from the angles we see Earth and the defenses, we can only see maybe 5 or so stations at once. This is the same deal with Reach.

3. and 4. First of all you have it backwards, the "real" Cortana is still on the Autumn where she's always been, the subroutine that Halsey broke off is what is studying the SWORD Artifact.

And where did you get the idea that the Autumn landed on Reach while Blue Team was taking out the Circumference's NAV Data? It can't have done that because of the time stamps from both the game and the book. The last level of Reach (Pillar of Autumn) takes place at approximately 16:20 (4:20 P.M. for those who don't know Military Time) and the Autumn's role in the space battle in TFoR is taking place at around 0600-0615 hours (6:00-6:15 A.M.). Now this going into my own personal opinion. Personally I think the Autumn went planet side after picking up the marines and the remnants of Blue Team on Gamma Station.

And as for the rest, you got the Spartan teams backwards. Blue was John's team and they went to take out the NAV Data on Gamma Station. Red Team is the group that was sent down to the planet to defend the Generator Complex.

And do you have a source for the rest of that?

  • 08.15.2011 8:43 AM PDT


Posted by: KurmisTheFrog
I'm not all that great with halo canon, I just have some questions

-Didn't the covenent just, sort of, stumble on Earth when they were following MC or something?
-What did noble team actually gain from finding the forerunner info and adding it to cortana?
-Can we pretend the PoA was making a pitstop..?

Maybe the second question will be answered in halo 4. Cortana can unlock doors or find a way to defeat a possible "new enemy" on the waht looks like a shield world.

  • 08.15.2011 2:05 PM PDT

Oh he's not dead... not yet.

Very interesting stuff but perhaps the novels may be related to the game but written and created by someone other than bungie and just supported by them?

  • 08.15.2011 2:14 PM PDT

"Flag: It's right next to the headlight fluid"

Most of your info sounds good, except the last bit. The mission was scheduled as a last gamble to save humanity with a prophet hostage. That's why they wouldn't be fighting the Covies on Reach.

  • 08.15.2011 11:39 PM PDT

Oly Oly Oxen Free

With everything taken into account, i see my only course of action being ignore reach.

I feel better already.

TFoR has a much better story, and to be honest, the events it portrays make more sense in terms of covenant behaviour.

As an aside, 2 small things bugged me about reach; first, why o why did they make the troopers look like copyandpasta generic modern day soldiers? Yes, i know it's the army and not the navy, but it diminishes our ability to recognise them as part of the Haloverse.

And my second point, why, in a world where Cortana can be stored on a chip the size of a credit card, was 6 carrying a part of cortana, yet appeared to be Jerrod in a cylinder the size of my arm?



It's a damn shame, Bungie, but Reach has been sullied for many of the hardcore fans.

Now we have to see what kind of damage 343 feel like doing...

  • 08.16.2011 4:21 AM PDT
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Then I shall advice you to read this.

  • 08.16.2011 4:38 AM PDT