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  • Subject: Unexplainable errors in the Halo canon. (Spoilers)
Subject: Unexplainable errors in the Halo canon. (Spoilers)


Posted by: P3P5I
Posted by: Hysterical Joker
It would've been detected by Remote Scanning Outpost Fermion. The one that detected the incoming slipspace rupture by the main Covenant fleet en route to Reach.

I cannot find anything on how one might cloak slipspace disruptions. They are very noticeable and emit large, large amounts of radiation. The Remote Scanning Outpost in the star system of Reach should've picked it up. If, for some reason, they drifted in from out of system, their scanners should've picked up its heat emissions, or if they were being jammed, have been able to identify it. Drifting through the system cloaked would've taken forever(Try traversing the entire star system without propulsion.)

Say, once again, the Corvette lays these towers. We know the Covenant are able of precision slipspace jumps, so let's assume it jumped right into orbit and cloaked relatively immediately. That slipspace jump would've been picked up a long time prior by the Remote Outpost.

I actually like the theory you put up. It would mean only the Corvette would need to evade the UNSC sensors.

Would you mind elaborating on the underlined? How would a jammed (or scrambled) sensor be able to identify objects?

I have no idea why we are talking about the science of slip space technology. FTL travel is probably above the current knowledge of both of us, if Bungie made a retcon that said the Covenant is using Forerunner technology that masks slipspace travel, that should be it for everyone. There would be no canon mistakes because no one fully understands how slip space actually behaves (I mean, the Forerunners built whole planets in slip space. I'm pretty sure they've mastered this technology). Just saying, "Well you can't cloak slip space travel!" doesn't mean anything. Unless you are willing to write me a paper on the physics of slip space and why it can't be masked, you are making baseless assumptions.

If their sensors are being scrambled, the men aboard the station wouldn't sit around scratching their heads, they would likely report it or suspect something is wrong. As this is only if they had drifted from out of system, found the little, remote outpost, and starting scrambling their sensors long enough to activate their engines. Then discover any other outposts, kill engines, drift, scramble, repeat until they can cloak and drift into the orbit of Reach. The whole thing seems highly unlikely.

I'm stating everything out of stuff we know from what Bungie has given us. Never before has the Covenant been able to mask their slipspace travel. Yes, the Covenant has Forerunner technology, but they have never been able to utilize it fully or gain access to more than they already have(See Forerunner Dreadnought as example for full capacity).

[Edited on 09.22.2010 6:23 PM PDT]

  • 09.22.2010 6:22 PM PDT
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Posted by: Achronos
It isn't our shiznit anymore.

Posted by: Hysterical Joker
If their sensors are being scrambled, the men aboard the station wouldn't sit around scratching their heads, they would likely report it or suspect something is wrong. As this is only if they had drifted from out of system, found the little, remote outpost, and starting scrambling their sensors long enough to activate their engines. Then discover any other outposts, kill engines, drift, scramble, repeat until they can cloak and drift into the orbit of Reach. The whole thing seems highly unlikely.

I'm stating everything out of stuff we know from what Bungie has given us. Never before has the Covenant been able to mask their slipspace travel. Yes, the Covenant has Forerunner technology, but they have never been able to utilize it fully or gain access to more than they already have(See Forerunner Dreadnought as example for full capacity).

To start, the Covenant would have to have foreknowledge on that one outpost. They scramble/jam the outpost, attack it like they did Visegrad, find the locations of the other outposts in the area that that one outpost so graciously submitted, rinse and repeat.

Even though the Covenant don't have a history of masking slip space travel, doesn't mean they don't do it. Bungie retconned the Corvette. Perhaps this new ship serves some sort of spec ops role within the covenant. It would make sense to make a stealthy ship very small. If tomorrow we find out the Covenant can indeed cloak their slipspace drives, that doesn't break canon, as long as this new technology can't be used throughout the whole covenant navy. It wouldn't break canon to say this one ship can do it.

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

  • 09.22.2010 6:42 PM PDT


Posted by: P3P5I
Posted by: Hysterical Joker
If their sensors are being scrambled, the men aboard the station wouldn't sit around scratching their heads, they would likely report it or suspect something is wrong. As this is only if they had drifted from out of system, found the little, remote outpost, and starting scrambling their sensors long enough to activate their engines. Then discover any other outposts, kill engines, drift, scramble, repeat until they can cloak and drift into the orbit of Reach. The whole thing seems highly unlikely.

I'm stating everything out of stuff we know from what Bungie has given us. Never before has the Covenant been able to mask their slipspace travel. Yes, the Covenant has Forerunner technology, but they have never been able to utilize it fully or gain access to more than they already have(See Forerunner Dreadnought as example for full capacity).

To start, the Covenant would have to have foreknowledge on that one outpost. They scramble/jam the outpost, attack it like they did Visegrad, find the locations of the other outposts in the area that that one outpost so graciously submitted, rinse and repeat.

Even though the Covenant don't have a history of masking slip space travel, doesn't mean they don't do it. Bungie retconned the Corvette. Perhaps this new ship serves some sort of spec ops role within the covenant. It would make sense to make a stealthy ship very small. If tomorrow we find out the Covenant can indeed cloak their slipspace drives, that doesn't break canon, as long as this new technology can't be used throughout the whole covenant navy. It wouldn't break canon to say this one ship can do it.

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

There are stealth Corvettes present in TFoR. So it's not a retcon.

The Corvette was tracking the Iroquois, how would it know when/where to drop outside of the system and then scan for remote outposts?

Say this tiny Corvette can mask its slipspace emissions(which, logically, it couldn't.) Fissile materials also emit radiation (specifically Cerenkov Radiation, emitted when particles travel through a medium at a faster rate than light travels in that same medium.) upon exiting Slipspace; this is not harmful to humans, however it does make emerging from Slipspace very noticeable. - Halopedia

How does said Corvette that is no longer jamming outposts jam the sensors of the outposts for when the Supercarrier in en route?

  • 09.22.2010 6:55 PM PDT
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Posted by: Achronos
It isn't our shiznit anymore.

Posted by: Hysterical Joker
There are stealth Corvettes present in TFoR. So it's not a retcon.

The Corvette was tracking the Iroquois, how would it know when/where to drop outside of the system and then scan for remote outposts?

Say this tiny Corvette can mask its slipspace emissions(which, logically, it couldn't.) Fissile materials also emit radiation (specifically Cerenkov Radiation, emitted when particles travel through a medium at a faster rate than light travels in that same medium.) upon exiting Slipspace; this is not harmful to humans, however it does make emerging from Slipspace very noticeable. - Halopedia

How does said Corvette that is no longer jamming outposts jam the sensors of the outposts for when the Supercarrier in en route?

Stealth Corvette is different than the Halo Reach Corvette. Perhaps Corvette wasn't the best word to use, but the new model Corvette in Halo Reach was different. Though it doesn't matter whether they are same or different, you can come to the same conclusion in both scenarios; that is, that the Reach Corvette could have stealth capabilities.

And who said you can't mask those fissile materials? All that quoted part says is it is hard to mask these particles, not impossible. Please, let's stop debating the science of slip space. None of us understands it! (unless, you have a major in theoretical physics. But even then, that wouldn't help you).

I'm not sure I understand your question. I would assume the Corvette leaves something near the outpost to keep it jammed or scrambled. Actually, we aren't sure how exactly Reach has set up their outposts. There may be a hundred, or a handful that collect data from the sensors in a space around it. The Corvette may only need to jam one outpost to get through, then just keep some kind of localized scrambler near the outpost. Kind of like the Covenant jammer on Nightfall.

  • 09.22.2010 7:24 PM PDT


Posted by: P3P5I
Posted by: Hysterical Joker
There are stealth Corvettes present in TFoR. So it's not a retcon.

The Corvette was tracking the Iroquois, how would it know when/where to drop outside of the system and then scan for remote outposts?

Say this tiny Corvette can mask its slipspace emissions(which, logically, it couldn't.) Fissile materials also emit radiation (specifically Cerenkov Radiation, emitted when particles travel through a medium at a faster rate than light travels in that same medium.) upon exiting Slipspace; this is not harmful to humans, however it does make emerging from Slipspace very noticeable. - Halopedia

How does said Corvette that is no longer jamming outposts jam the sensors of the outposts for when the Supercarrier in en route?

Stealth Corvette is different than the Halo Reach Corvette. Perhaps Corvette wasn't the best word to use, but the new model Corvette in Halo Reach was different. Though it doesn't matter whether they are same or different, you can come to the same conclusion in both scenarios; that is, that the Reach Corvette could have stealth capabilities.

And who said you can't mask those fissile materials? All that quoted part says is it is hard to mask these particles, not impossible. Please, let's stop debating the science of slip space. None of us understands it! (unless, you have a major in theoretical physics. But even then, that wouldn't help you).

I'm not sure I understand your question. I would assume the Corvette leaves something near the outpost to keep it jammed or scrambled. Actually, we aren't sure how exactly Reach has set up their outposts. There may be a hundred, or a handful that collect data from the sensors in a space around it. The Corvette may only need to jam one outpost to get through, then just keep some kind of localized scrambler near the outpost. Kind of like the Covenant jammer on Nightfall.

I think if either side could mask their slipspace disruptions, they would've done so, that far into the war, and would've continued doing so. It's the one thing that allows them to be detected, and the one thing that allows them to be tracked down.

And in 3 weeks said device wouldn't be found, or reported?

[Edited on 09.22.2010 7:42 PM PDT]

  • 09.22.2010 7:40 PM PDT
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Posted by: Achronos
It isn't our shiznit anymore.

Posted by: Hysterical Joker
I think if either side could mask their slipspace disruptions, they would've done so, that far into the war, and would've continued doing so. It's the one thing that allows them to be detected, and the one thing that allows them to be tracked down.

And in 3 weeks said device wouldn't be found, or reported?

My explanation would be only the Corvette class Covenant vessels could do it, due to their size and the enormous imaginary power needed. Modifying my original theory, it would take a lot of energy to do a "cloaked jump" into Reach's system, which would make the ship vulnerable for a little while.

Or maybe it's like active camo, where you need to be going really slow to stay invisible. Likewise, that same slipspace jump would take much longer cloaked than uncloaked. And due to the Covenant's superior naval power, they wouldn't have much need for going low and slow, except on special ops, like Reach. I'm sure the Covenant want to end the war as quickly as possible.

Maybe the UNSC doesn't know the outpost has been attacked. Perhaps the Covenant are sending false signals back to whatever base the outpost reports to.

  • 09.22.2010 8:05 PM PDT


Posted by: P3P5I

Maybe the UNSC doesn't know the outpost has been attacked. Perhaps the Covenant are sending false signals back to whatever base the outpost reports to.

That would be innovative tactics, adapted tactics, as well as utilizing a new form of sensor scrambling that is remote and not tied to the Corvette ship(which functions in electronic warfare).

The Covenant are imitative, not innovative.

Obviously it happened somehow, but for me it doesn't line up and just looks like oversight until Bungie or 343 comes along and retcons more -blam!-.

  • 09.22.2010 8:21 PM PDT

The problem still with the cloaking argument is that we know not only does the UNSC possess slipsace sensors, they also possess some kind of sensor(perhaps spectroscopic) that can determine how heavy an object is, and also in slipspace. The Fermion outpost not only pinged the Covenant fleet, they spotted vessels that could only be Covenant by their tonnage weight.

The UNSC has more than just slipspace sensors...point being,.

My info above might be wrong as the Nylund I think only mentioned once that beside slipspace sensors, they had other viable sensors.

  • 09.22.2010 8:24 PM PDT
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Posted by: Achronos
It isn't our shiznit anymore.

Posted by: A Puzzled Mind
The problem still with the cloaking argument is that we know not only does the UNSC possess slipsace sensors, they also possess some kind of sensor(perhaps spectroscopic) that can determine how heavy an object is, and also in slipspace. The Fermion outpost not only pinged the Covenant fleet, they spotted vessels that could only be Covenant by their tonnage weight.

The UNSC has more than just slipspace sensors...point being,.

My info above might be wrong as the Nylund I think only mentioned once that beside slipspace sensors, they had other viable sensors.

No, you're right. The UNSC sensor array doesn't need to have the Covenant ship in normal space to detect it.

But I was arguing for a specific Covenant vessel (new Corvette model in Reach) that somehow has the ability to to cloak its slip space travels. One of my theories with it was it acted similar to active camo, where you need to be going slow to stay fully cloaked. That Corvette would need to go very slow through slip space to stay cloaked. This would solve the problem of why didn't the Covenant mass produce it three times over, because:

1) extraordinary power to cloak slip space travel only allows something as big as a Corvette to get through.
2) having to go so slow in slip space reduces the need for it on the rest of the Covenant navy because they don't have a need for stealth in this war. This puts the need for stealth ships solely in the spec ops missions. Like Reach.
3) The Covenant being imitative, they wouldn't know how to increase the range or the efficiency of the cloaking technology, so they are stuck only giving it to the spec ops Corvettes.

The Covenant obviously get their tech from Forerunners, perhaps they always had this ship and tech, but didn't really find a need for it until now due to their naval supremacy. Or maybe they did use it and no human ever knew up until Reach, because it was that stealthy.

^ I believe that last paragraph answers your post, Hysterical Joker

  • 09.22.2010 8:40 PM PDT

Referring to the Reach story not being able to be canon take a gander at Castlevania -that will give you a debate. They just slightly altered the story for the purpose of the game. It could easily be imagined what ultimately happened in something of a combination of the events. Personally, I think back to Dr. Halsey and Cortana in the forerunner structure. I remember Cortana being a flash clone of Halsey, but Halsey says she was created using the forerunner tech, ergo I decided she created Cortana and uploaded the forerunner data to her to further Cortana's development or wealth of information. Make it up as you go. It causes much less headache.

As for the slipspace stuff... why waste time debating issues we don't understand in a fictional world where the properties of slipspace travel never needed to be explained? Bungie probably doesn't know how to build a Covenant Corvette, let alone rig it for slipspace travel. Plotholes I get, I can debate about those for awhile, but slipspace travel? It seems kinda useless to me in regard to Halo canon.

I'm just thinking out loud though.

[Edited on 09.22.2010 8:46 PM PDT]

  • 09.22.2010 8:45 PM PDT


Posted by: P3P5I
Posted by: A Puzzled Mind
The problem still with the cloaking argument is that we know not only does the UNSC possess slipsace sensors, they also possess some kind of sensor(perhaps spectroscopic) that can determine how heavy an object is, and also in slipspace. The Fermion outpost not only pinged the Covenant fleet, they spotted vessels that could only be Covenant by their tonnage weight.

The UNSC has more than just slipspace sensors...point being,.

My info above might be wrong as the Nylund I think only mentioned once that beside slipspace sensors, they had other viable sensors.

No, you're right. The UNSC sensor array doesn't need to have the Covenant ship in normal space to detect it.

But I was arguing for a specific Covenant vessel (new Corvette model in Reach) that somehow has the ability to to cloak its slip space travels. One of my theories with it was it acted similar to active camo, where you need to be going slow to stay fully cloaked. That Corvette would need to go very slow through slip space to stay cloaked. This would solve the problem of why didn't the Covenant mass produce it three times over, because:

1) extraordinary power to cloak slip space travel only allows something as big as a Corvette to get through.
2) having to go so slow in slip space reduces the need for it on the rest of the Covenant navy because they don't have a need for stealth in this war. This puts the need for stealth ships solely in the spec ops missions. Like Reach.
3) The Covenant being imitative, they wouldn't know how to increase the range or the efficiency of the cloaking technology, so they are stuck only giving it to the spec ops Corvettes.

The Covenant obviously get their tech from Forerunners, perhaps they always had this ship and tech, but didn't really find a need for it until now due to their naval supremacy. Or maybe they did use it and no human ever knew up until Reach, because it was that stealthy.

^ I believe that last paragraph answers your post, Hysterical Joker

So, does that explain remote electronic scrambling for 3 weeks to mask the Supercarrier?

  • 09.22.2010 8:51 PM PDT


Posted by: RustyMuFFins
Referring to the Reach story not being able to be canon take a gander at Castlevania -that will give you a debate. They just slightly altered the story for the purpose of the game. It could easily be imagined what ultimately happened in something of a combination of the events. Personally, I think back to Dr. Halsey and Cortana in the forerunner structure. I remember Cortana being a flash clone of Halsey, but Halsey says she was created using the forerunner tech, ergo I decided she created Cortana and uploaded the forerunner data to her to further Cortana's development or wealth of information. Make it up as you go. It causes much less headache.

As for the slipspace stuff... why waste time debating issues we don't understand in a fictional world where the properties of slipspace travel never needed to be explained? Bungie probably doesn't know how to build a Covenant Corvette, let alone rig it for slipspace travel. Plotholes I get, I can debate about those for awhile, but slipspace travel? It seems kinda useless to me in regard to Halo canon.

I'm just thinking out loud though.

She says that? Where?

The slipspace stuff is in regards to how a 3.33 mile Covenant ship gets near Reach undetected.

  • 09.22.2010 8:53 PM PDT
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Posted by: Achronos
It isn't our shiznit anymore.

Posted by: Hysterical Joker
So, does that explain remote electronic scrambling for 3 weeks to mask the Supercarrier?

No, this does:
Posted by: Me!
Maybe the UNSC doesn't know the outpost has been attacked. Perhaps the Covenant are sending false signals back to whatever base the outpost reports to.

  • 09.22.2010 8:55 PM PDT


Posted by: P3P5I
Posted by: Hysterical Joker
So, does that explain remote electronic scrambling for 3 weeks to mask the Supercarrier?

No, this does:
Posted by: Me!
Maybe the UNSC doesn't know the outpost has been attacked. Perhaps the Covenant are sending false signals back to whatever base the outpost reports to.

Which is innovative tactics, I don't remember which book to reference, but I do believe it is mentioned that the Covenant never change tactics(Perhaps due to religious customs that prevent certain things, or even Naval Superiority).

  • 09.22.2010 9:01 PM PDT
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Posted by: Hysterical Joker

Posted by: cB4d93
I'm pretty sure that the Super Carrier itself does not have cloaking abilities. The spires that were installed on Reach were what was cloaking the thing. I believe that Auntie Dot says something along the lines of "The spire was cloaking a Super Carrier" I'll replay the mission again to make sure.
But if that's the case then how did no one see it? And how were the spires built so fast? So confusing.

July 24th is when the Corvette first gets there, the destruction of the spire occurs August 12th. A little under 3 weeks, plenty of time to construct them, but yes, your other points are valid and ones I ponder myself.

I would appreciate it if you could confirm the following in the mission: Is there mention of EMP capabilities? Is it a teleporter linked to the Carrier? Does it cloak the Carrier?
The only EMP that is mentioned is the shield around the Spire.
The Spire's do link to the Carrier via teleporters and they are in fact cloaking the carrier.

  • 09.22.2010 9:02 PM PDT
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Posted by: Achronos
It isn't our shiznit anymore.

Posted by: Hysterical Joker
Posted by: P3P5I
Posted by: Hysterical Joker
So, does that explain remote electronic scrambling for 3 weeks to mask the Supercarrier?

No, this does:
Posted by: Me!
Maybe the UNSC doesn't know the outpost has been attacked. Perhaps the Covenant are sending false signals back to whatever base the outpost reports to.

Which is innovative tactics, I don't remember which book to reference, but I do believe it is mentioned that the Covenant never change tactics(Perhaps due to religious customs that prevent certain things, or even Naval Superiority).

When looking for artifacts and making sure the humans don't get their hands on them, the Covenant are sure to change strategies. In the Midnight in the Heart of Midlothian story, the Covenant waited and ambushed a UNSC ship and boarded it searching for other human planet intel. Normal tactics dictate the covenant should have destroyed the ship, but it didn't. Or when the Covenant used a stealthed Corvette to survey Cote d' Azure.

I suppose the innovation/imitation thing only applies to technology and battlefield tactics. Sort of like how the British would never change their battlefield strategies during the Revolutionary War, but they still had some times when they used covert ops to make the jump on the rebels.

Every species changes strategies when put under pressure. It's just natural for the Covenant to change up their plans every once in a while, especially if the endgoal is religious, like an artifact.

  • 09.22.2010 9:15 PM PDT


Posted by: cB4d93

Posted by: Hysterical Joker

Posted by: cB4d93
I'm pretty sure that the Super Carrier itself does not have cloaking abilities. The spires that were installed on Reach were what was cloaking the thing. I believe that Auntie Dot says something along the lines of "The spire was cloaking a Super Carrier" I'll replay the mission again to make sure.
But if that's the case then how did no one see it? And how were the spires built so fast? So confusing.

July 24th is when the Corvette first gets there, the destruction of the spire occurs August 12th. A little under 3 weeks, plenty of time to construct them, but yes, your other points are valid and ones I ponder myself.

I would appreciate it if you could confirm the following in the mission: Is there mention of EMP capabilities? Is it a teleporter linked to the Carrier? Does it cloak the Carrier?
The only EMP that is mentioned is the shield around the Spire.
The Spire's do link to the Carrier via teleporters and they are in fact cloaking the carrier.

Thank you.

So essentially, Bungie needs to invent several different things in order to make the canon work.
Fun. =/

  • 09.22.2010 9:21 PM PDT
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Posted by: Hysterical Joker

Posted by: cB4d93

Posted by: Hysterical Joker

Posted by: cB4d93
I'm pretty sure that the Super Carrier itself does not have cloaking abilities. The spires that were installed on Reach were what was cloaking the thing. I believe that Auntie Dot says something along the lines of "The spire was cloaking a Super Carrier" I'll replay the mission again to make sure.
But if that's the case then how did no one see it? And how were the spires built so fast? So confusing.

July 24th is when the Corvette first gets there, the destruction of the spire occurs August 12th. A little under 3 weeks, plenty of time to construct them, but yes, your other points are valid and ones I ponder myself.

I would appreciate it if you could confirm the following in the mission: Is there mention of EMP capabilities? Is it a teleporter linked to the Carrier? Does it cloak the Carrier?
The only EMP that is mentioned is the shield around the Spire.
The Spire's do link to the Carrier via teleporters and they are in fact cloaking the carrier.

Thank you.

So essentially, Bungie needs to invent several different things in order to make the canon work.
Fun. =/


Indeed.

Which could have been avoided entirely; and I believe that reason is why everyone is so up in arms about these conflicting stories.

In the end, the only people who are happy are those who have played only the games; and those who never truly cared in the first place.

  • 09.23.2010 1:35 PM PDT


Posted by: Hysterical Joker

Posted by: P3P5I

Maybe the UNSC doesn't know the outpost has been attacked. Perhaps the Covenant are sending false signals back to whatever base the outpost reports to.

That would be innovative tactics, adapted tactics, as well as utilizing a new form of sensor scrambling that is remote and not tied to the Corvette ship(which functions in electronic warfare).

The Covenant are imitative, not innovative.

Obviously it happened somehow, but for me it doesn't line up and just looks like oversight until Bungie or 343 comes along and retcons more -blam!-.


No retcons required. There's obviously more about the Covenant that has yet to be told. The Halo Universe is so vast that 10 years from now we may still wonder what the Covenant is/was/will be capable of.

My son, who is much more into this than I am, pointed out to me yesterday that there are entire separate fleets composed primarily of Zealots that are tasked with finding forunner artifacts. As we learned in, I believe, Contact:Harvest, the Covenant use "Forunner artifact detectors." Such a device surely would have exploded upon detecting Reach, and the Prophets would have dispatched their best "get Forunner stuff" fleet which I would imagine would the have the latest, best technology and equipment for executing the will of the Prophets. This would most likely be stuff the UNSC and even ONI doesn't have a clue about.

This fleet was did not go to Reach to "destroy all humans." They were there to "get Forunner stuff." Because they are Zealots they must kill the humans for touching Holy Relics, but for the most part that job was left to the "normal" fleets that showed up on August 30, as was told in TFoR.

This strategy is both imitative and innovative. Just because the various species that comprise the Covenant haven't reached the technological level of the Forunners dosen't mean they're stupid.

The problem some people are having is that, having played all the games and read all the books and otherwise perused all the available media, they believe they know all there is about the Halo universe. Refusing to accept that there are things they still don't know can be frustrating. All you parents out there know what it's like to have teenage kids that "know everything." It takes a while to figure out that you can't know what you haven't learned.

The more I play Reach (I work, so I play when I can, and I haven't finished the campaign yet) the more I find how invalid most of these "inconsistencies" turn out to be. Jumping all over Bungie for, as yet, unexplained occurrences does not make you a diehard fan. A more in-depth analysis of what has been told will help you gain insight into what may be possible.

  • 09.23.2010 2:06 PM PDT
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Posted by: Stardriver 1

No retcons required. There's obviously more about the Covenant that has yet to be told. The Halo Universe is so vast that 10 years from now we may still wonder what the Covenant is/was/will be capable of.

more that has to be INVENTED to explain why they diverted from the traditional description

My son, who is much more into this than I am, pointed out to me yesterday that there are entire separate fleets composed primarily of Zealots that are tasked with finding forunner artifacts. As we learned in, I believe, Contact:Harvest, the Covenant use "Forunner artifact detectors." Such a device surely would have exploded upon detecting Reach, and the Prophets would have dispatched their best "get Forunner stuff" fleet which I would imagine would the have the latest, best technology and equipment for executing the will of the Prophets. This would most likely be stuff the UNSC and even ONI doesn't have a clue about.

-Reach was discovered (as explained in TFoR) by a covie spy probe latching onto the Iroquois and transmitting data back to the command element. Space is a LARGE place, the covenant, however large and powerful they may be cannot run around sweeping this devices searching for "gold." The devices are also programmed to show humans as forerunner artifacts- though this was tampered with; in order to deceive the covenant into attempting xenocide against the human race. (C:H) The device "explodes" any time a human world is detected.
-Source for the "zealot fleet?" I dont recall anything.
-While the UNCS and ONI don't know the full extent of the Covenants capabilities- we the readers have a much better picture. Thus far what we know conflicts with what has been presented to us on a plot level, and in logical arguments.


This fleet was did not go to Reach to "destroy all humans." They were there to "get Forunner stuff." Because they are Zealots they must kill the humans for touching Holy Relics, but for the most part that job was left to the "normal" fleets that showed up on August 30, as was told in TFoR.
-From what we have seen in the game, the original covenant presense was on reach to pave a way for a larger force (scout and sabotage) with a small group of zealots, who apparently infiltrated an ONI research station to uncover artifacts (as detailed in the Reach Mission "Winter Contingency gameplay and Dr. Halsey cutscene." Our argument up to this point was how the covenant managed to park a corvette in orbit, set up the pylons, and establish a ground presence in the first place. Logically, and given the extent of technology- this makes little sense. (in regards to the timeline- zealots are shown in the ruins under castle base in First Strike)

This strategy is both imitative and innovative. Just because the various species that comprise the Covenant haven't reached the technological level of the Forunners dosen't mean they're stupid.
-The covenant was never considered stupid, just will fully ignorant, as well as holding themselves back due to misplacing a religious reverence on forerunner artifacts.
-I don't understand the base of your "innovative and imitative" argument.


The problem some people are having is that, having played all the games and read all the books and otherwise perused all the available media, they believe they know all there is about the Halo universe. Refusing to accept that there are things they still don't know can be frustrating. All you parents out there know what it's like to have teenage kids that "know everything." It takes a while to figure out that you can't know what you haven't learned.
-So far it would appear that the fans have a more in depth understanding of fluff and canon than the developers themselves. This is actually a common occurrence among large universe and dedicated fanboys (ie. Star Trek and Star Wars.)
-We refuse to accept what has been offered to us because that information falls apart under scrutiny; and when compared to pre- existing information.
-Your last point is pretty arrogant; similar in manner to those teenage punks you compare us to.


The more I play Reach (I work, so I play when I can, and I haven't finished the campaign yet) the more I find how invalid most of these "inconsistencies" turn out to be. Jumping all over Bungie for, as yet, unexplained occurrences does not make you a diehard fan. A more in-depth analysis of what has been told will help you gain insight into what may be possible.
-Finish the game; read the books. Draw your own conclusions, present your arguments.
-We're jumping on bungie because we expected better of them.
-I'm pretty sure being a die hard fan is, in fact, being obsessed and having overwhelming knowledge of the universe that you follow. Yes, there are multiple versions of die hard fans.



response in bold.

  • 09.23.2010 3:06 PM PDT

Reach was found because the Covenant were tracking a beacon placed on the Iroquois(by a stealth Corvette, which one can infer as being the one on Reach packing the zealots, as once they were in orbit they could scan and start looking for artifacts). Another problem is whether that Corvette was the one destroyed by Orbital bombardment or not(Why go into combat, and how would it manage to pack the materials to deploy multiple pylons capable of cloaking a supercarrier when that is not their designated function and they are unaware that Reach is inhabited?).

Foley covers it pretty well.

  • 09.23.2010 3:33 PM PDT
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One day... I am gonna grow wings... A chemical reaction... Hysterical and useless... hystecial and let down and hanging around... crushed like a bug in the ground.

1.
About Alpha company not surviving, ONI could have easily pulled a group of Spartans out of the operation at the last second to form a group of Spartan specialists similiar to the headhunters.

As far as we know there are 4 squads of these as referenced in the New Alexandrina cutscene, so maybe 20-25 Spartans were taken by ONI before PROMETHEUS.

2. I agree with every other point.

3. Also there were many dead Spartans lying on the ground in the level "Lone Wolf", unless these Spartans were the teams referenced by NOBLE 2, this breaks canon as almost certainly only 30 Spartan IIs were on Reach and the battle for almost all of them has been in detail already established.

  • 09.23.2010 3:55 PM PDT


Posted by: AngasBoy
1.
About Alpha company not surviving, ONI could have easily pulled a group of Spartans out of the operation at the last second to form a group of Spartan specialists similiar to the headhunters.

As far as we know there are 4 squads of these as referenced in the New Alexandrina cutscene, so maybe 20-25 Spartans were taken by ONI before PROMETHEUS.

2. I agree with every other point.

3. Also there were many dead Spartans lying on the ground in the level "Lone Wolf", unless these Spartans were the teams referenced by NOBLE 2, this breaks canon as almost certainly only 30 Spartan IIs were on Reach and the battle for almost all of them has been in detail already established.


1. They did. It's a retcon. Yay retcons.
3. From what Bungie has given us, they must be S-IIs. We don't know where Noble is at when he dies.

  • 09.23.2010 4:02 PM PDT
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Posted by: Hysterical Joker

Posted by: AngasBoy
1.
About Alpha company not surviving, ONI could have easily pulled a group of Spartans out of the operation at the last second to form a group of Spartan specialists similiar to the headhunters.

As far as we know there are 4 squads of these as referenced in the New Alexandrina cutscene, so maybe 20-25 Spartans were taken by ONI before PROMETHEUS.

2. I agree with every other point.

3. Also there were many dead Spartans lying on the ground in the level "Lone Wolf", unless these Spartans were the teams referenced by NOBLE 2, this breaks canon as almost certainly only 30 Spartan IIs were on Reach and the battle for almost all of them has been in detail already established.


1. They did. It's a retcon. Yay retcons.
3. From what Bungie has given us, they must be S-IIs. We don't know where Noble is at when he dies.


3. It could be artistic license, or a visual metaphor or foreshadowing. Hell, it could be an actual SII team (those wounded that traveled with the marines that didn't make it to Whitcomb- or was it just the Marines that got left behind?) Either way, I think they're just there to show that Spartans do die; and so that the player is aware of the gravity of your final stand. I know I shed a single manly tear.

  • 09.23.2010 4:12 PM PDT


Posted by: L0V3LikeRockets
Posted by: Ageless Durandal
Also, you do realize that the books are "optional" canon and are over-ridden by the game canon, right?

This is not true, it has been confirmed by Bungie before that the books were just as much canon as the games have ever been, and the reaffirmed by 343i at comic-con.

Oh and I'm not sure if this counts, but one small thing to add to your list is on top of the PoA being on Reach in Halo: Reach is that John-117 is shown in cryosleep in the bay of the ship. Not only does this not make sense for him to be in cryosleep before the ship has even left, since in tFoR he is only put in cryosleep before they make the jump to slip-space; but also because why in the world would his cryotube be in the docking bay? That doesn't even make sense just using common sense, and thats not even where we start playing as Chief in CE.

And yes I realize this was meant more to be an Easter Egg, but hey its in the game, and its not as if its in background of gameplay way off in the distance or anything. All in all I think Reach just has to be considered non-canon. There are just way to many discrepancies for it to possibly make it all work out. Entertainment wise I very much enjoyed Reach, but canon wise it was very disappointing.


It's a damn easter egg. You don't think Johnson and the Elite really hugged after the Autumn blew up in CE? And that ODST dude really has a pet monkey and eats things that came from out of his hair?

  • 09.23.2010 4:25 PM PDT