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This topic has moved here: Subject: Unexplainable errors in the Halo canon. (Spoilers)
  • Subject: Unexplainable errors in the Halo canon. (Spoilers)
Subject: Unexplainable errors in the Halo canon. (Spoilers)

"Reach was invaded July 24 fool!"

Yes it was, but it wasnt the same invasion fleet described in TFoR, it was the LNOS fleet (which by the way is a large enough ship to hold its entire fleet INSIDE itself). People have complained about how the fleet of particular justice steamrolled reach in 2 hours when reach was suppose to be our fortress world. Why do you think that is? Because there were two seperate invasion waves beforehand which softened it up for the fleet of particular justice to deliver the final hammerblow. Its called warfare.

"There should be no s-IIIs running around they all died in suicide ops, idiot!"

The best and brightest spartan IIIs were pulled from those ops for a greater purpose, i dont know how many times this has been stated, just go and read headhunters or something.

"ONI didnt respect the cole protocol with the Circumference, this is an outrage"

Since when have ONI operated under the law? lol.

"Noble teams ages dun maek no sense!"

Cryo sleep. Also the best you can tell from their ingame appearances is that they are all in their early to mid 20s

"where are those damn ODPs!"

Probably getting annihilated by covie ground forces. Also, read ONI data drop four. (quick preview: Reach was intentionally sacrificed by ONI.....for the greater good)

"POA not rated for atmosphere! OMG!"

No it is not. Which is why you see those HUGE BRIGHT YELLOW disposable boosters it needed just to take off from reach and which it presumably needed to get down in one piece too. You can see the results of an unassisted atmospheric landing attempt on alpha halo, when keys takes her down and manages to gouge a mile long trench in the ground and nearly tips her over a cliff.

Final note, as stated the MAC shot seen at the end of sword base is not an SMAC, it is a shot from a frigate or cruiser. Ships include "orbital defence" too. Even a frigate had to get special authorisation to fire a MAC in atmosphere due to the dangers, theres no way the UNSC would have turned an SMAC around and shot themselves with it, come on people.

Not aimed at anyone in particular, just trying really hard to dispell canon myths that wont go away.

  • 10.13.2011 5:06 AM PDT

Don't worry, you're still your mom's favorite Bnet member.

It would seem that the data drops at least cover the invasion date issue.

  • 10.23.2011 8:47 AM PDT
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Posted by: Fatal Factor
"Reach was invaded July 24 fool!"

Yes it was, but it wasnt the same invasion fleet described in TFoR, it was the LNOS fleet (which by the way is a large enough ship to hold its entire fleet INSIDE itself). People have complained about how the fleet of particular justice steamrolled reach in 2 hours when reach was suppose to be our fortress world. Why do you think that is? Because there were two seperate invasion waves beforehand which softened it up for the fleet of particular justice to deliver the final hammerblow. Its called warfare.

"There should be no s-IIIs running around they all died in suicide ops, idiot!"

The best and brightest spartan IIIs were pulled from those ops for a greater purpose, i dont know how many times this has been stated, just go and read headhunters or something.

"ONI didnt respect the cole protocol with the Circumference, this is an outrage"

Since when have ONI operated under the law? lol.

"Noble teams ages dun maek no sense!"

Cryo sleep. Also the best you can tell from their ingame appearances is that they are all in their early to mid 20s

"where are those damn ODPs!"

Probably getting annihilated by covie ground forces. Also, read ONI data drop four. (quick preview: Reach was intentionally sacrificed by ONI.....for the greater good)

"POA not rated for atmosphere! OMG!"

No it is not. Which is why you see those HUGE BRIGHT YELLOW disposable boosters it needed just to take off from reach and which it presumably needed to get down in one piece too. You can see the results of an unassisted atmospheric landing attempt on alpha halo, when keys takes her down and manages to gouge a mile long trench in the ground and nearly tips her over a cliff.

Final note, as stated the MAC shot seen at the end of sword base is not an SMAC, it is a shot from a frigate or cruiser. Ships include "orbital defence" too. Even a frigate had to get special authorisation to fire a MAC in atmosphere due to the dangers, theres no way the UNSC would have turned an SMAC around and shot themselves with it, come on people.

Not aimed at anyone in particular, just trying really hard to dispell canon myths that wont go away.


^ This

  • 10.23.2011 10:21 AM PDT
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Do you have what it takes to become a ninja? Join Ninja Academy
Prepared to learn the way of the jedi? Join
KOTOR

Every fictional universe has its errors and contradictions. Look at the Star Trek and Star Wars universes. The same problems are in other universes.

  • 10.24.2011 5:19 PM PDT
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I be gone into the depts of abyss. I'm leaving Bungie.net. Sorry.

"Lack of MACs guns"

Given that Reach was the damn center of the UNSC and ONI, Halo Reach should at least have had a whole battalion of UNSC Frigates, Destroyers and Carriers. And what about the two Capital Ships that where supposed to be at bay with the North Polar Station - the Leviathan; And South Polar Station -I forgot the name of the other capital ship-?

Bungie sucked big time in creating 'conflict' and 'resolution' during the WHOLE game of Reach.

  • 10.29.2011 12:09 PM PDT


Posted by: natedogr
Every fictional universe has its errors and contradictions. Look at the Star Trek and Star Wars universes. The same problems are in other universes.


Well in fairness to star wars and Star trek they have rakes upon rakes of comics,books,games,tv shows and movies which mean it's really inevitable that there will be errors.

Halo on the other hand had its canon broke not by the expanded universe (third party content) but by first party content done by bungie. It only took one game to change the canon so much. That being said, I think the canon changes are good. But that's my opinion.

[Edited on 10.30.2011 8:26 AM PDT]

  • 10.30.2011 8:25 AM PDT

Brains beats brawn get used to it

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Variety is the spice of life.
Long live games.
Death to all fanboys.


Posted by: Pipboy3070

Posted by: natedogr
Every fictional universe has its errors and contradictions. Look at the Star Trek and Star Wars universes. The same problems are in other universes.


Well in fairness to star wars and Star trek they have rakes upon rakes of comics,books,games,tv shows and movies which mean it's really inevitable that there will be errors.

Halo on the other hand had its canon broke not by the expanded universe (third party content) but by first party content done by bungie. It only took one game to change the canon so much. That being said, I think the canon changes are good. But that's my opinion.


Change canon so much?

Any changes that occurred within Reach were contained to the events of Reach and nothing beyond that. When compared to the multitude of rectons made by the books and changed within the books, then the number of changes within the Universe made from Reach is nothing in comparison because of how those changes in the game hardly affect anything outside of the titular battle.

  • 10.30.2011 2:04 PM PDT

Hold it right there.

Hello. Name's Brian. Look, if you're looking for a flame war with me, just open up the Flood and write up some not-nice things about religion and I'll bring my nukes to the party.

If you want some other way to contact me, you can forget it.

If you're interested in some of my work, you can check my homepage out.

This is one of the many problems with the Reach Campaign. It just broke the canon for its own sake; delivering a story with a twisted setting. When I played Reach, I thought I'd actually get to see the power the UNSC was told to have in the books. I was disappointed.

  • 10.30.2011 2:33 PM PDT
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@PipBoy3070
Star Wars had its canon changed as soon as the Empire Strikes back came out. Star Trek had its canon changed between "The Cage"--the original pilot episode and "Where No Man Has Gone Before"--the second pilot. All of which were first party content productions. Its the classic case in point for changes in canon: "From a certain point of view."

Halo Reach has a bit of a cheat going on here. In the Limited and Legendary editions there is a document stating that "You are now in possession of the most complete and accurate account that anyone has been able to assemble of SPECWAR/GroupTHREE/NOBLE's actions during the final weeks before the Covenant glassed Reach."
The most complete...I suppose that's one way of saying "Ignore canon changes if the explanations don't satisfy you."

But obviously, seeing as we like our fictional universes to obey causality, defining only one definition of "canon" and "non-canon," when some sci-fi revolves around multiple parallel universes and some pov may be from an innaccurate historical viewpoint...

I'm just going to stop right there and say that I like my canon to be as consistent as possible.

I also would like to say I like Halo: The Fall of Reach, but that space battle left a lot to be desired. However ita a book, long battles generally overwhelm and confuse the reader with the pages of tactics and descriptions (or lack of tactics and descriptions). I said generally

I also like Halo Reach. But the characters and the story could have been better. I believe Bungie stated that they tried a different approach...instead of constructing the story first and building the memorable moments as part of the story, this time they decided on the memorable moments and constructed the story around those.

Bungie. Don't do that again. Please.
343i--Just don't do that at all. The next Halo Trilogy is only going to surpass the first if it gets everything right

[Edited on 11.05.2011 5:59 AM PDT]

  • 11.02.2011 11:22 AM PDT
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@grey101, @OrderedComa @KoO 101 and @People annoyed at PoA lift-off

Okay...in regards to the PoA being on the ground (Yes I know this is a tired argument, but I still want to add my two cents)...

I know that somewhere in the Reach canon it states that Aszod is one of the last safe (or just plain last) extraction points on the planet. This makes sense to me...you've got the PoA giving defensive fire against Banshees and Seraphs, and you have that Mass Driver to at least stall major covenant ships. The PoA was heavily damaged due to particiapating in that space battle, so it came to ground for a) some repairs and b) to evacuate as many survivors as possible (I mean, that's a priority right? With the planet being glassed? Right?)

It probably makes sense to have the PoA set down to help defend the incoming Pelicans and ground forces. I mean, in the minute or so it took to attempt extracting Noble 6 one pelican went down. Can you imagine how many would make it all the way to space? I don't think they would...

Now the PoA isn't rated for atmosphere...or whatever. That doesn't mean that it can't land or crash...any hunk of junk from space can survive re-entry as long as it comes in on the right trajectory...it just means that it can't hover like the UNSC Grafton in Tip of the Spear...or however that thing was staying airborne. That's wny the PoA needed (as mentioned before by someone else) those yellow booster pods to lift off from Aszod.

Now I know this still changes canon from tFoR (book states that PoA jumps from Reach with heavy damage), but I think that this little part makes more sense...especially as Halo Combat Evolved didn't exactly show the PoA suffering heavy damage. Heck, Cortana blew up four CCS battlecruisers before the ship finally crashed on Halo. I don't think a heavily damaged PoA could do that. No way. Especially seeing as the Savannah got blown up by a corvette. A corvette. (Probably confusing my starship classes here, but whatever. The point still stands. I think.)

So did this part of Halo Reach change tFoR? Or did tFoR change the first level of Combat Evolved???

[Edited on 11.05.2011 7:32 AM PDT]

  • 11.02.2011 11:54 AM PDT
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Okay, better analogy than the Savannah...the UNSC were always at a--what was it? Three to one disadvantage due to the covenant technology? Five to one? Whatever.
A mostly repaired Pillar of Autumn destroying four CCS class battlecruisers? Or a heavily damaged PoA destroying four CCS class battlecruisers. I know that ship was heavily modified, but really? Hang on, where's that book. Oh yes, this is just after PoA has emerged from slipsace around Halo.

"Reactor two has been fully repaired," she replied. "Reactors one and three are inoperable. That gives us twenty percent power. Archer missile pods I and J rows serviceable. Autocannon ammunition at ten percent. Our two remaining Shiva warheads are intact." She paused and double-checked the MAC gun.
"Magnetic Accelerator Gun's capacitors depolarized. We cannot fire the system, sir."
"More good news," he grumbled. "Continue."
"Hull breaches patched-but the majority of decks eleven, twelve, and thirteen are destroyed-that includes the Spartans' weapons locker."
[Excerpt from Halo: The Fall of Reach by Eric Nylund]


NO WAY DID THAT SHIP SURVIVE THE BATTLE AROUND HALO. IT SHOULD HAVE BEEN OBLITERATED. Right? Right!? How did Cortana manage to destroy FOUR battlecruisers? How?

The PoA seems to have been pretty much the best ship in the UNSC fleet...still, no major damage shown in Halo CE--or in Reach, for that matter.
And how's this for another inconsistency...the MAC cannon on PoA is inoperable at the end of Halo tFoR--before the battle around the ring, yet only goes offline during the battle as shown by both The Flood and Halo CE...(was this corrected in a newer edition???)


[Edited on 11.05.2011 7:37 AM PDT]

  • 11.02.2011 12:11 PM PDT
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@Makko Mace
I wonder if anyone has stayed with this thread from page one.

Yes. The OP! :)
I read through about 80 or so pages of this thread a couple of months ago. Probably not what you mean though. :)

  • 11.02.2011 12:18 PM PDT
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Posted by: OrderedComa

Posted by: tabby1234
It's surprising to see just how many errors have been made to what extent...these are silly errors that could have been easily not made...


The thing is more than half of what the OP has listed have all ready been resolved by Bungie, and thus are no longer, or the solutions are something ridiculously obvious and easy to see.

Posted by: privet caboose
No, Bungie hasn't explained ANY of these errors.


Umm...at least one has been explained by http://www.bungie.net/projects/reach/article.aspx?ucc=personn el&cid=24040

Kurt and Mendez have been pulling out as many Spartan-IIIs as he can from those suicidal missions--I'm assuming that's been the case since before Prometheus. No Bungie hasn't directly explained it. But that's the whole point. Bungie figures you're smart enough to infer information. We all know they make mistakes, but they do try and provide at least SOME explanation for them.

Wait..didn't I cover this before? With you? In this thread? We're losing track of our arguments people! Should we start a wiki? :)

[Edited on 11.02.2011 2:13 PM PDT]

  • 11.02.2011 12:42 PM PDT

Don't worry, you can't hurt me.

I personally think that if they made Noble team a regular Marine unit then it would have been fine. Telling the stories of an ordinary marine, rather than of 6 spartans whose presence would be impossible, more interesting. They could have stretched that day out pretty far. It could have been told in the eyes of the Marines defending the power plants. When they get wiped out, that could have been the last level. 3rd person would have been cool too, but now I'm getting away from what Halo is about.

  • 11.02.2011 12:55 PM PDT
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Hey, third person's still possible...weren't Bungie planning on making the original game that way in 2000?
Yes, telling the stories of non-Spartans would make it more interesting...that's why I enjoyed ODST so much.
In one of my previous posts I stated that Bungie was a bit restriced with the Spartan-III's. They "had" (I'm using the term loosely) to make Noble Team psychologically unstable Spartans. They did a great job with that--especially with Kat...killing me all the time...stuck up----anyway, those personalities plus the short campaign really didn't give us a chance to know (or like) the characters of Noble Team before they all died...
I think ODST did a much better job in this area...

  • 11.02.2011 1:05 PM PDT

Brains beats brawn get used to it

Fear the Red Comet

Variety is the spice of life.
Long live games.
Death to all fanboys.


Posted by: Shadowless Shan
I personally think that if they made Noble team a regular Marine unit then it would have been fine. Telling the stories of an ordinary marine, rather than of 6 spartans whose presence would be impossible, more interesting. They could have stretched that day out pretty far. It could have been told in the eyes of the Marines defending the power plants. When they get wiped out, that could have been the last level. 3rd person would have been cool too, but now I'm getting away from what Halo is about.


The marines defending the MAC generators get wiped out in the first few waves. And by friendly fire at that. Focusing on that view point would not only be short, but the ending would simply be unsatisfying. All that effort only to get killed by your own bombers...

  • 11.02.2011 10:50 PM PDT

If you are a gamer over the age of 30 years and are looking for mature Group to join here it is. The Ancient Warriors offer training, friendship and mature conversation. Our instructors are second to none in the game of Halo. With over 10 years of experience each of our instructors are outstanding trainers and always willing to help. Please find us on Bungie at Ancient Warriors.

OMG it's a game if your so taken back by the mistakes don't play it.

  • 11.03.2011 11:33 AM PDT

In regards to novels and "canon". I will pick and choose which ones to support as I damn well please. Cryptum and Glasslands are irrelevant as far as I'm concerned.

Don't like that? Boo hoo.

Sure they're "canon" but that doesn't mean I have to support them, their existence, or the continued careers of their respective writers.

How did that Corvette arrive at Sword Base without anyone taking it out beforehand? It arrives in Reach's solar system, exits slipspace, enters the atmosphere and parks right over an ONI facility...without being locked on and blasted by either one of the hundreds of orbital defense platforms, engaged by any of the perimeter defense fleets and/or engaged by surface forces.

Oh no, it just appears.


Don't even get me started on how a 28 kilometer long, 11 and a half kilometer wide supercarrier arrives unnoticed as well. Cloaked or not it's 95,000 feet long. Can you imagine the amount of heat, electronic/magnetic interference, and lord knows what other kinds of emissions that thing would give off?

  • 11.03.2011 12:32 PM PDT


Posted by: Astartes Marine
How did that Corvette arrive at Sword Base without anyone taking it out beforehand? It arrives in Reach's solar system, exits slipspace, enters the atmosphere and parks right over an ONI facility...without being locked on and blasted by either one of the hundreds of orbital defense platforms, engaged by any of the perimeter defense fleets and/or engaged by surface forces.

Oh no, it just appears.


Don't even get me started on how a 28 kilometer long, 11 and a half kilometer wide supercarrier arrives unnoticed as well. Cloaked or not it's 95,000 feet long. Can you imagine the amount of heat, electronic/magnetic interference, and lord knows what other kinds of emissions that thing would give off?


I have four words for you: read the Data Drops! :P

That explains a great deal of it. And honestly, how much do we really know about the cloaking technology the Covenant have for their ships or their ship technology in general? We don't know what they can or cannot hide on something of that size and scale. We know they can't completely hide their infantry with cloaks, and that's essentially all we know.

And what makes you think that the UNSC had an effective means of taking out the Corvette the whole time? And they didn't even know the Covenant were on Reach until the 24th, and the attack on SWORD Base happens almost the day after, not that much time to up a really effective mobilization, especially when you have no idea where the Covenant are going to pop up next or where they're coming from. Not effective enough to engage a phantom enemy at least. And most orbital defense would not be able to take on an enemy that's reached the surface of the planet, and then others would just not be a good idea to fire at your own planet unless you meant to destroy everything in a wide radius around where you were targeting. Like a SMAC, that is something you do not want to fire down at your own planet. Plus they couldn't take out the Corvette due to where it was located, IE, too close to SWORD Base. That's the whole reason why the Longswords had to come in and herd it away. Force it somewhere it could be targeted without any sort of damage to the base itself.

  • 11.03.2011 1:23 PM PDT

In regards to novels and "canon". I will pick and choose which ones to support as I damn well please. Cryptum and Glasslands are irrelevant as far as I'm concerned.

Don't like that? Boo hoo.

Sure they're "canon" but that doesn't mean I have to support them, their existence, or the continued careers of their respective writers.

Posted by: OrderedComa
I have four words for you: read the Data Drops! :P

Is it my fault the game needs an external source to patch up it's own shortcomings?

Posted by: OrderedComa
That explains a great deal of it. And honestly, how much do we really know about the cloaking technology the Covenant have for their ships or their ship technology in general? We don't know what they can or cannot hide on something of that size and scale. We know they can't completely hide their infantry with cloaks, and that's essentially all we know.

We also know that this supercarrier and the magical cloak that can cover a 95,000 foot long starship are never seen in the series again. Neither are Corvettes for that matter.

Posted by: OrderedComa
And what makes you think that the UNSC had an effective means of taking out the Corvette the whole time? And they didn't even know the Covenant were on Reach until the 24th, and the attack on SWORD Base happens almost the day after, not that much time to up a really effective mobilization, especially when you have no idea where the Covenant are going to pop up next or where they're coming from. Not effective enough to engage a phantom enemy at least. And most orbital defense would not be able to take on an enemy that's reached the surface of the planet, and then others would just not be a good idea to fire at your own planet unless you meant to destroy everything in a wide radius around where you were targeting. Like a SMAC, that is something you do not want to fire down at your own planet. Plus they couldn't take out the Corvette due to where it was located, IE, too close to SWORD Base. That's the whole reason why the Longswords had to come in and herd it away. Force it somewhere it could be targeted without any sort of damage to the base itself.


My bit about the Corvette totally went over your head didn't it?

Covie ships at that time came out of slipspace away from planets. The only time they've jumped in-atmosphere was Regret's carrier and that was due to the information about Cortana's adjustments to Covenant slipspace engines aboard the Ascendant Justice that were leaked by the AJ's onboard AI construct before Cortana "killed" it. (First Strike)
Fortunately it was not able to leak her improvements to their plasma weaponry.

Anyways, as a ship like that would have exited away from the planet it would have, as shown in "The Fall of Reach", been picked up by the many sensor and detection stations in that star system (Fall of Reach).
Reach was not blind, as humanity's last major UNSC stronghold they invested just about everything they had in her defense. A ship coming out of slipspace, just the event of exiting slipspace would give off a readable and detectable burst of energy/radiation (Fall of Reach), and it would have been seen.
Even Halo 2, when those Covie ships exited slipspace near Earth, they were immediately identified and targeted as hostile.

How were they able to evade Reach which at that time had an equal or even greater amount of defenses?

Like we saw at the end of Sword Base, one MAC round tore through it and took it out of commission so we know it could easily be taken out, but why wasn't it seen?

  • 11.03.2011 1:40 PM PDT

I am Privet Caboose, this is my alternate because of complications with my gamertag.

Just an FYI, I am Privet Caboose. I needed to make a new username due to other complications.

  • 11.03.2011 5:31 PM PDT

yas334229812

ah private caboose i remember you know, actually who are you really.

  • 11.03.2011 5:36 PM PDT

De Mooose

The age difference between them is not an error. In Glasslands it states that Ash is only 13 while Tom and Lucy are both twenty.

  • 11.03.2011 5:46 PM PDT

I am Privet Caboose, this is my alternate because of complications with my gamertag.


Posted by: HaloFreakMan
The age difference between them is not an error. In Glasslands it states that Ash is only 13 while Tom and Lucy are both twenty.


...That's because Ash is from Gamma Company while Tom and Lucy are from Beta Company.

  • 11.03.2011 6:00 PM PDT

Posted by: Astartes Marine
Is it my fault the game needs an external source to patch up it's own shortcomings?


So? You think that every single detail of every single event and backstory should be explained all in one game? Sorry, but that's not really possible, you can't have every single detail of every single story given to you all of the time in just one source of media or even sometimes not at all. And to be quite honest, while the Data Drops are a nice and good thing to have, they're not really needed at all. The game exists just fine on its own without them.

We also know that this supercarrier and the magical cloak that can cover a 95,000 foot long starship are never seen in the series again. Neither are Corvettes for that matter.

Do we? We haven't seen every single battle in the war or every single event of every single battle, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. And besides which, the Covenant knew where Reach was, the whole point was slipping the makings of an army in with stealth, hence all of the stealth technology we saw in Reach. In contrast, every other battle has been, for the most part, through the Covenant stumbling blindly onto a planet, not much you can do in way of stealth in terms of invading a whole planet when you've already blown your entrance and spoiled the element of surprise. So what I'm saying is we didn't see it applied in any of the battles we've seen (as far as we know at least) because the Covenant had the element of surprise spoiled and massive, widespread army hiding canopies and/or massive stealthed ships are not exactly as useful if it's just a straight up battle.

My bit about the Corvette totally went over your head didn't it?

Covie ships at that time came out of slipspace away from planets. The only time they've jumped in-atmosphere was Regret's carrier and that was due to the information about Cortana's adjustments to Covenant slipspace engines aboard the Ascendant Justice that were leaked by the AJ's onboard AI construct before Cortana "killed" it. (First Strike)
Fortunately it was not able to leak her improvements to their plasma weaponry.

Anyways, as a ship like that would have exited away from the planet it would have, as shown in "The Fall of Reach", been picked up by the many sensor and detection stations in that star system (Fall of Reach).
Reach was not blind, as humanity's last major UNSC stronghold they invested just about everything they had in her defense. A ship coming out of slipspace, just the event of exiting slipspace would give off a readable and detectable burst of energy/radiation (Fall of Reach), and it would have been seen.
Even Halo 2, when those Covie ships exited slipspace near Earth, they were immediately identified and targeted as hostile.

How were they able to evade Reach which at that time had an equal or even greater amount of defenses?

Like we saw at the end of Sword Base, one MAC round tore through it and took it out of commission so we know it could easily be taken out, but why wasn't it seen?


From everything we know about the Corvettes it doesn't look like they have shielding, and if they don't have that I would also guess that they can't get into Slipspace on their own. Though in any case I think it's fairly obvious that they were carried to Reach by the Supercarrier, which we know was able to somehow get to Reach mostly undetected. I say mostly because Halsey states in her Journal that there were anomalies in Slipspace occurring around the 24th when the Covenant were discovered to be on Reach by the UNSC, I also say mostly because ONI knew that the Covenant was there at least a short while before the UNSC did (if not longer) because they used Reach as bait for RED FLAG. It's pretty clear from what we know that the LNoS was able to at least partially mask its exit from Slipspace somehow.

[quote]

  • 11.04.2011 9:29 PM PDT