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This topic has moved here: Subject: Unexplainable errors in the Halo canon. (Spoilers)
  • Subject: Unexplainable errors in the Halo canon. (Spoilers)
Subject: Unexplainable errors in the Halo canon. (Spoilers)


Posted by: Chubrock3056
Posted by: Stardriver 1

Posted by: Foley vonAwesom

Posted by: Stardriver 1



The problem some people are having is that, having played all the games and read all the books and otherwise perused all the available media, they believe they know all there is about the Halo universe. Refusing to accept that there are things they still don't know can be frustrating. All you parents out there know what it's like to have teenage kids that "know everything." It takes a while to figure out that you can't know what you haven't learned.
-Your last point is pretty arrogant; similar in manner to those teenage punks you compare us to.



I have responses to your other observations but I have little time today. However, this one needs to be addressed.

I in no way intended to infer or imply that a teenager that feels that they "know everything" is some kind of punk. The observation comes from having been a teenager myself once, having raised two of them myself, and, as a school district employee, I have been up to my eyeballs in them for the last sixteen years.

Teenagers are hardwired to believe they possess all knowledge. It's a survival trait. It's how our species survived. When we get older we understand things better. That's how life goes.

My point being that you can't know what you haven't learned.


You can't base a story on something you never established before either. Bungie didn't care about that, though.

There is one thing that sticks out to me that hasn't really been discussed IMO. Why did ONI try to cover up The Covenant on Reach? Throughout the canon (lol), ONI has been built up as a secretive, yet highly intelligent and powerful organization. They HAD to have known Reach was compromised. It makes no sense to not warn the rest of the military. That is a huge plot hole IMO. That was an incredibly dumb move IMO, because if ONI had promptly warned the rest of the military on 7/24/2552, then Reach could have been further reinforced and possibly saved.

When you look at this logically, there was absolutely NOTHING to be gained from trying to cover up the initial Covenant force.


Not sure, perhaps they wanted the secrecy to let Noble Team see what could be found. But yes, there hardly seems any logical reason to keep it hidden from the UNSC(if that's the case) when there's a Corvette and/or Supercarrier out there.

  • 09.24.2010 7:19 PM PDT
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In the back of Halsey's journal, why doesn't she mention Kelly, or Will, or Fred(when she says she has to go because the Covenant are infiltrating Castle base)? I'm reading First Strike now and I just find it weird that she doesn't mention them, because they were already at Castle base with her before the Covenant broke through.

Wait, unless that part of the book wasn't Castle but under Sword Base. NVM.

[Edited on 09.24.2010 7:33 PM PDT]

  • 09.24.2010 7:32 PM PDT


Posted by: xXFatal v1
In the back of Halsey's journal, why doesn't she mention Kelly, or Will, or Fred(when she says she has to go because the Covenant are infiltrating Castle base)? I'm reading First Strike now and I just find it weird that she doesn't mention them, because they were already at Castle base with her before the Covenant broke through.

Wait, unless that part of the book wasn't Castle but under Sword Base. NVM.

She's talking about SWORD Base, the journal was recovered from there.

  • 09.24.2010 7:36 PM PDT
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The best possible explanation I can come up with in light of everything we know now is to assume/speculate the following:

1. ONI knew there was no stopping the destruction of Reach (Even Halsey understood this)---So they kept it quiet to keep down mass hysteria/panic, they focused on some of their resources (NOBLE TEAM, ODST, etc) to fight/research against the advance covenant force ...while putting their hope into the mission of the Spartan II's to capture the prophet...

One can assume by the time the Long Night of Solace is destroyed, ONI has no choice but to let the cat out of the bag, especially with the covenant force inbound.

It seems by the time the Supercarrier uncloaks itself they do ask for military reinforcements (in one of the cutscenes it explains this), but I am not sure how much of the UNSC is notified over this or even if they know why they are being pulled to reach.

If one were to try to mesh the book time-line with the game...you have a lot of surprised people on August 30th...If 343 is going to do the latter, they are going to have to give an explanation on how/why this happened.

I have a question as well....

What does the Spire in the game actually Teleport? Does it Teleport the cloaked Supercarrier, or was the Covenant Supercarrier already in system? Does the Spire cloak/teleport as well? Little confusing here.


  • 09.24.2010 7:51 PM PDT

I'm pretty sure it's linked as a Teleporter to transport troops without needing to set up a large gravlift into orbit(Since there is no gravlift present, troops and supplies need to get down fast somehow).

  • 09.24.2010 7:53 PM PDT
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That makes sense..Clears that up a bit..Thanks!

  • 09.24.2010 7:55 PM PDT

Posted by: cB4d93
Posted by: Silent Eli
you are a good translator
Idiot can be a hard language to learn, but once you get it down, everything becomes so clear! The whole world will make sense to you.


Posted by: A Puzzled Mind
Since the Frigates can't do jack against CCS Cruisers, Marathons and Halcyons are stuck in space not able to assist, and the ]ground battle is brutal for humanity.

*sighs*
Besides your absurd and non-sensical rationalization of the new timeline, not your fault, the new canon still is incompetently written regardless...You obviously know nothing of the actual space battle nor something called "fleet engagement".
For your information, the UNSC isn't stupid enough to send in a single frigate to handle a Covenant Cruiser. That's why we have the 3 to 1 ratio rule in the book.

Even then, you greatly misunderstand the UNSC fleet. ANy ship with a MAC gun can -blam!- a Covenant ship as long as it can get 3 rounds dead on the Covenant vessel, hence, it only takes 3 frigates to kill a Covenant ship effectively...doesn't really matter whether if its a marathon or halycon, it matters whether you're employing intelligent tactics.

WHich still begs to ask, you have 100-150 UNSC ships, each carrying a MAC guns and 3 nukes each at minimal condition, at reach and one Covenant Super Carrier dicking around in Space doing nothing for a few hours, can you not see how stupid Bungie's writers are.


I'm not saying it was well written. I just attempted to make sense of it somehow based on the new canon.

And keep in mind an atmospheric engagement is probably much different from a space one. MAC cannons in atmosphere likely have a massive decrease in velocity due to the friction caused by the slug traveling through atmosphere. We don't how long it takes a Frigate to reload, but if three only are able to break the shield before reloading, the Cruiser's plasma torpedoes would demolish them. If the UNSC is going to risk an atmospheric engagement, they would likely lose a lot of ships that could be in orbit waiting for the inevitable arrival of the Fleet of Particular Justice and engage it.

But at the end of the day, it's a goddamn video game plot. It's not worth the outrageous scrutiny. I knew this was going to happen, so I just told myself that TFoR was a 10 year old novel showing it's age with a steady stream of minor retcons. you can't make a game based on a 2 hour battle. It took it for what it was and it is the most enjoyable game in the series to me, up there with CE.

  • 09.24.2010 9:24 PM PDT
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Posted by: Hysterical Joker

Posted by: xXFatal v1
In the back of Halsey's journal, why doesn't she mention Kelly, or Will, or Fred(when she says she has to go because the Covenant are infiltrating Castle base)? I'm reading First Strike now and I just find it weird that she doesn't mention them, because they were already at Castle base with her before the Covenant broke through.

Wait, unless that part of the book wasn't Castle but under Sword Base. NVM.

She's talking about SWORD Base, the journal was recovered from there.
Yeah, that's what I figured. Thanks.

  • 09.25.2010 1:11 AM PDT

On hiding dead bodies:
Posted by: Psuedo
Posted by: teh Chaz
Inside another dead body. It's the last place they'll look
A corpse within a corpse.
CORPSEPTION.
Win.


Posted by: BK Burger Boy
And keep in mind an atmospheric engagement is probably much different from a space one. MAC cannons in atmosphere likely have a massive decrease in velocity due to the friction caused by the slug traveling through atmosphere. We don't how long it takes a Frigate to reload, but if three only are able to break the shield before reloading, the Cruiser's plasma torpedoes would demolish them. If the UNSC is going to risk an atmospheric engagement, they would likely lose a lot of ships that could be in orbit waiting for the inevitable arrival of the Fleet of Particular Justice and engage it.
Well, the Commonwealth in TFOR fired 2 'heavy' MAC rounds in quick succession. The way that section was written, it seems as though it only takes 30-45 seconds to recharge. Reload would be very very brief.

30-45 seconds in a Naval engagement, where ships can travel at speeds of up to 80 million kph, is an eternity however.

  • 09.25.2010 1:29 AM PDT

After john exercise she would of wanted to continue the work knowing what was going on to hopefully find a weapon to stop this war... also alot of dead gaurds near the door.... thats my take on it

  • 09.25.2010 3:59 AM PDT
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There is NO REASON for the SMACs the ships in orbit around reach that adequately explains them not engaging the covenant corvette / carrier.

In TFoR we see Keyes pass info up the chain of command about Cote d'Azur being invaded at the Poles of the planet- several ships come about and unleash a full salvo into the rain of drop ships. In the siege of Reach, we read that the SMACS turn about and fire MAC rounds at drop ships. Obviously an errant shot is not a concern (and rarely happens with AI calculated firing trajectories.)

While I'm not sure about the location of the SMACS around reach, we should have seen at least one while up in space, and there should have been multiple ships prepared to engage the moment that covie ship became visible. IIRC; while there are 100 combat ships in the epsilon eridanus system; only 30-40 were actually at Reach. that still 50-60 guns spread across the planet that can engage any target within 15 minutes. (that time being a reasonable estimate derived from flight times in space; time to charge a shot and acquire a solution, and engage.)

The whole Space combat level followed the "rule of cool" in order to provide entertainment. In the end, if bungie hadn't stepped in and rail- roaded the plot- the UNSC most certianly would have engaged and eliminated the threat with extreme prejudice. The way you go about in the game is a blatant waste of time, resources, and lives. with how important REACH is; you can bet that any threat is taken seriously and dealt with in a heavy handed manner- which would mean a 30 ton ferro- titanium slug gutting through energy shields at 10^8 m/s. Far more efficient than the mission we carry out in game.

  • 09.25.2010 1:58 PM PDT

I for one, would've been totally rip--blam!- pumped to watch a cutscene of the ships/SMACs tearing the Supercarrier to shreds after completing a mission that would've allowed them to carry that out.

Or even carrying that out myself.

A wasted opportunity imo, and lame way to kill Jorge off.
On the note of Jorge though, playing campaign solo, I really come to appreciate how badass it is to watch another Spartan-II. I'd really enjoy it if we got to see more of that in the future, seeing them through the eyes of someone else.

  • 09.25.2010 2:33 PM PDT
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Now let's ask the question:

why is an SII under the command of an SIII?

also

the info uncovered in Dr. Halsey's lab room (easter egg); is that considered canon? If it is, I believe that is shows cortana to NOT be split into to parts- but her entire AI matrix is present and handed over to noble team. (which explains the Dr's attitude during the act of handing her over.)

[Edited on 09.25.2010 2:52 PM PDT]

  • 09.25.2010 2:39 PM PDT


Posted by: Foley vonAwesom
Now let's ask the question:

why is an SII under the command of an SIII?

also

the info uncovered in Dr. Halsey's lab room (easter egg); is that considered canon? If it is, I believe that is shows cortana to NOT be split into to parts- but her entire AI matrix is present and handed over to noble team. (which explains the Dr's attitude during the act of handing her over.)

Rank. Jorge is a Warrant Officer, Carter is a Commander.

The journal says Cortana is split, the reasoning for this is to amend canon inconsistencies. I say it is safe to say that the easter egg is not canon.

How can I access Halsey's lab room, by the way?

  • 09.25.2010 3:02 PM PDT
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So then I ask, how did carter attain such rank?

I've always been suspicious of giving SPARTANS officer ranks and clearance (for various reason regarding access to data.)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q98a__oKml0

I'd love try it myself to further delve into it; I got what I could by pausing the video at the screens.

  • 09.25.2010 3:27 PM PDT
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  • Exalted Legendary Member


Posted by: Hysterical Joker

Posted by: Chubrock3056
Posted by: Stardriver 1

Posted by: Foley vonAwesom

Posted by: Stardriver 1



The problem some people are having is that, having played all the games and read all the books and otherwise perused all the available media, they believe they know all there is about the Halo universe. Refusing to accept that there are things they still don't know can be frustrating. All you parents out there know what it's like to have teenage kids that "know everything." It takes a while to figure out that you can't know what you haven't learned.
-Your last point is pretty arrogant; similar in manner to those teenage punks you compare us to.



I have responses to your other observations but I have little time today. However, this one needs to be addressed.

I in no way intended to infer or imply that a teenager that feels that they "know everything" is some kind of punk. The observation comes from having been a teenager myself once, having raised two of them myself, and, as a school district employee, I have been up to my eyeballs in them for the last sixteen years.

Teenagers are hardwired to believe they possess all knowledge. It's a survival trait. It's how our species survived. When we get older we understand things better. That's how life goes.

My point being that you can't know what you haven't learned.


You can't base a story on something you never established before either. Bungie didn't care about that, though.

There is one thing that sticks out to me that hasn't really been discussed IMO. Why did ONI try to cover up The Covenant on Reach? Throughout the canon (lol), ONI has been built up as a secretive, yet highly intelligent and powerful organization. They HAD to have known Reach was compromised. It makes no sense to not warn the rest of the military. That is a huge plot hole IMO. That was an incredibly dumb move IMO, because if ONI had promptly warned the rest of the military on 7/24/2552, then Reach could have been further reinforced and possibly saved.

When you look at this logically, there was absolutely NOTHING to be gained from trying to cover up the initial Covenant force.


Not sure, perhaps they wanted the secrecy to let Noble Team see what could be found. But yes, there hardly seems any logical reason to keep it hidden from the UNSC(if that's the case) when there's a Corvette and/or Supercarrier out there.


I think some military was notified and mobilized. It was all just really top secret to the citizens and anyone not directly participating in these mobilizations. If you read the add on to the new version of TFoR there's an exerpt that is a conversation between two workers apparently some distance away (not sure if they are both even on Reach, but one certainly is) and one of the guys is talking about how he's nervous, there seems to be a lot more troops and things being mobilized and set up here on Reach (even possibly Spartans he thinks) as opposed to them usually ending up off planet. His buddy tells him it's probably nothing and he's being paranoid and after some discussion into a few details of the matter is calmed into assuming it's just drills or some other special military stuff, and not a big deal. It doesn't seem that there was NO effort made to fight the Covenant before the big battle, but I think it was only known to the people participating in the fighting and the ONI spooks.

  • 09.25.2010 3:47 PM PDT
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so you've read the new TFoR?

is it worth getting for the 40~ extra pages?

From your story we see military "intelligence" in action. Given how large of a threat the covenant is and the importance of Reach though, I would say that a Large Scale Mobilization / evacuation preparation would be underway. Something to consider...

  • 09.25.2010 3:51 PM PDT

~Nod

To be totally honest you guys, I think this is pretty cool stuff but I really doubt that Bungie intended for everyone to read into the story this much. o__o

  • 09.25.2010 5:12 PM PDT

~Nod

Ahh what the hell, I'll play along too. xD

I noticed that the Covenant ships' "Excavation Lasers" were nearly doubled in power from Reach to ODST and Halo 3 (when you saw them in use). I played ODST the other day and the beam just kind of grazes the city/landscape and leaves behind a lot of smoke, yet here in Reach when the laser fires it's brightness is that of a second sun and it seems to do MUCH more damage than in ODST/Halo 3.

  • 09.25.2010 5:17 PM PDT
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Posted by: Nodoudt
Ahh what the hell, I'll play along too. xD

I noticed that the Covenant ships' "Excavation Lasers" were nearly doubled in power from Reach to ODST and Halo 3 (when you saw them in use). I played ODST the other day and the beam just kind of grazes the city/landscape and leaves behind a lot of smoke, yet here in Reach when the laser fires it's brightness is that of a second sun and it seems to do MUCH more damage than in ODST/Halo 3.


There is a difference though. In ODST, the Covenant were simply trying to burn away the portions of the city to uncover the entire Portal to the Ark. In Reach however, the Covenant are on an almost 1005 destruction mission, aside from retrieving the Forerunner crystal. They could put their Excavation Beams to high power.




One of the biggest problems I have though is the Supercarrier. That thing is huge. Now, even if it was cloaked, it would not be able to slip past the sensors and Super MAC guns that supposedly surrounded Reach. Which would raise a question of how the Towers got set up in the desert.





[Edited on 09.25.2010 6:18 PM PDT]

  • 09.25.2010 6:15 PM PDT


Posted by: MOB74656

Posted by: Nodoudt
Ahh what the hell, I'll play along too. xD

I noticed that the Covenant ships' "Excavation Lasers" were nearly doubled in power from Reach to ODST and Halo 3 (when you saw them in use). I played ODST the other day and the beam just kind of grazes the city/landscape and leaves behind a lot of smoke, yet here in Reach when the laser fires it's brightness is that of a second sun and it seems to do MUCH more damage than in ODST/Halo 3.


There is a difference though. In ODST, the Covenant were simply trying to burn away the portions of the city to uncover the entire Portal to the Ark. In Reach however, the Covenant are on an almost 1005 destruction mission, aside from retrieving the Forerunner crystal. They could put their Excavation Beams to high power.




One of the biggest problems I have though is the Supercarrier. That thing is huge. Now, even if it was cloaked, it would not be able to slip past the sensors and Super MAC guns that supposedly surrounded Reach. Which would raise a question of how the Towers got set up in the desert.




3.33 miles long huge.

  • 09.25.2010 11:44 PM PDT

i always loved the halo games..

then i got into the story, it devoured me with its novels i have reread countless times.

now im back to just the game, i hate what they did.

  • 09.26.2010 12:13 AM PDT

GROSSMAN: Do you think of the Culture as a utopia? Would you live in it, if you could?

BANKS: Good grief yes, to both! What's not to like? ...Well, unless you're actually a fascist or a power junkie or sincerely believe that money rather than happiness is what really matters in life. And even people with those bizarre beliefs are catered for in the Culture, albeit in extreme-immersion VR environments.

KOTOR

How would the "Cloaking" towers work (I believe they are just big Jammers with shields) They emit a Dome shaped projection, which is nowhere near big enough to hide 3.33 miles of Super Carrier, let alone one Stealth Cruiser. I think that they are just teleporters, designed to speed up the deployment of ground troops. (Most of this has already been said, I know) And this is unlikely, but the towers could have been dropped from orbit, it wouldn't be too hard to slow them down with anti gravity tech.

Oh, and I would like to point out that the Covenant do have innovative capabilities: Truth's plan in "The Cole Protocol" to use Kig-Yar to sell the Rubble insurrectionists Covenant weapons with tracking devices to find the location of Earth. That is a masterpiece of a plan. It would have worked too if Keyes, Regret, Delgado, and Gray Team hadn't have shown up.

  • 09.26.2010 4:58 AM PDT
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extra errors in plot
http://www.bungie.net/Forums/posts.aspx?postID=49679666&v iewreplies=true#end

  • 09.26.2010 5:46 AM PDT


Posted by: BK Burger Boy

you can't make a game based on a 2 hour battle.


Bungie could have easily made a story following the events shortly before, during, and after the battle. We all knew Reach was not completely glassed, and there was plenty of land left after the space battle.

Hell, I would have even gone for something similar to the Earth invasion.

A preliminary Covenant strike force, lets say 15 ships, breaks through Reach's defensive barriers and deploys ground troops on the evening of the 29th.

Noble carries out various missions defending assets through the night, and the distress signal is sent out. Everyone knows it takes a couple of days for UNSC ships to travel through slipspace, so having the strike force arrive on the 29th would give the UNSC very little time to prepare for the main invasion fleet on the 30th.

  • 09.26.2010 6:20 AM PDT