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  • Subject: Unexplainable errors in the Halo canon. (Spoilers)
Subject: Unexplainable errors in the Halo canon. (Spoilers)
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Posted by: privet caboose
What makes this even worse, is that in the Legendary commentary Bungie doesn't even think there's any canon issues.

One of the four brings up, "how does this all fit into the canon," and one of them replied, "Like a glove. It all fits together with the other canon like a jigsaw puzzle." I can't remember the exact quote, but he goes on to say that they were careful and there was no canon discrepancies.
Yeah, I had to lol a little bit when I heard him say that. Like the above poster said, I'm sticking with the book and comics being the main canon, seeing as they delve deeper into the story than the games ever will.

  • 09.27.2010 1:05 PM PDT

All of these things are true, and put together brilliantly. Well done.


However. In my opinion, (and let me say that again; OPINION)
Bungie, the studio that created this saga, is the final authority on Halos' story line. The books are based on Bungies' game, and therefore, I think Bungie can do whatever the hell they want with it. If they want to shroud how Jun, Carter and Emile escaped, fine. They die anyway(spoilers?).


Just an opinion.

  • 09.27.2010 1:15 PM PDT

After you successfully defend Halsey's lab from the Covenant:

"Well done Spartans"

  • 09.27.2010 2:19 PM PDT

I write poetry, I write short-stories, I listen to hip-hop (80s&90s), Reggae, Classic Rock n Roll, Heavy Metal, Jazz, Blues, and the 60s, 70s.


Posted by: xReconAssassinX

Posted by: JDYeash937 MkII

Posted by: Yakov Sidorov
Games->Books->Halo Waypoint->Halo Legends

Thats Halo canon for you, deal with it.
Excessive handwavium. That just means if there is a conflict like armour colour, name or date or w/e, the game comes top. It was never intended to be used for the massive retcons that Reach makes, but has been, and people defend it with that excuse.

Seriously tell me you would say the same thing if 343 had made Reach with that many canon errors.
That's really not the attitude people in this forum should take. It's about challenging and discussing canon, saying "oh, bungie said it's this, but now they say it's that, oh that's ok then" totally defeats the purpose of this forum.

Agreed, and as of right now I'm following the books canon, because if the series were of the games canon all we'd know of the lore is whatever is in Halsey's Journal and the story of Reach and the Halos, I'd rather follow the canon that has Halo lore decades back, and tells the story of Reach and the Halos.


The books' covers say "Based on the bestselling Xbox game...
Halo (Insert Title)."

Keyword BASED.

'Nuff Said.

  • 09.27.2010 2:39 PM PDT


Posted by: Yakov Sidorov

Posted by: xReconAssassinX

Posted by: JDYeash937 MkII

Posted by: Yakov Sidorov
Games->Books->Halo Waypoint->Halo Legends

Thats Halo canon for you, deal with it.
Excessive handwavium. That just means if there is a conflict like armour colour, name or date or w/e, the game comes top. It was never intended to be used for the massive retcons that Reach makes, but has been, and people defend it with that excuse.

Seriously tell me you would say the same thing if 343 had made Reach with that many canon errors.
That's really not the attitude people in this forum should take. It's about challenging and discussing canon, saying "oh, bungie said it's this, but now they say it's that, oh that's ok then" totally defeats the purpose of this forum.

Agreed, and as of right now I'm following the books canon, because if the series were of the games canon all we'd know of the lore is whatever is in Halsey's Journal and the story of Reach and the Halos, I'd rather follow the canon that has Halo lore decades back, and tells the story of Reach and the Halos.


The books' covers say "Based on the bestselling Xbox game...
Halo (Insert Title)."

Keyword BASED.

'Nuff Said.


Hometown here should read Bungie's comments on the books.

  • 09.27.2010 2:41 PM PDT
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Posted by: Yakov Sidorov

Posted by: xReconAssassinX

Posted by: JDYeash937 MkII

Posted by: Yakov Sidorov
Games->Books->Halo Waypoint->Halo Legends

Thats Halo canon for you, deal with it.
Excessive handwavium. That just means if there is a conflict like armour colour, name or date or w/e, the game comes top. It was never intended to be used for the massive retcons that Reach makes, but has been, and people defend it with that excuse.

Seriously tell me you would say the same thing if 343 had made Reach with that many canon errors.
That's really not the attitude people in this forum should take. It's about challenging and discussing canon, saying "oh, bungie said it's this, but now they say it's that, oh that's ok then" totally defeats the purpose of this forum.

Agreed, and as of right now I'm following the books canon, because if the series were of the games canon all we'd know of the lore is whatever is in Halsey's Journal and the story of Reach and the Halos, I'd rather follow the canon that has Halo lore decades back, and tells the story of Reach and the Halos.


The books' covers say "Based on the bestselling Xbox game...
Halo (Insert Title)."

Keyword BASED.

'Nuff Said.



but interviews with the authors (some of whom are bungie staff) have shown the books to have been written following an established "story bible;" and released after review and approval by bungie.

I have not watched the legendary commentary yet, though I believe that combined with the link I provided earlier cements this point:
Bungie has decided to cater to those who have only played the games.
Which bothered a lot of us, because we invested time and money enjoying everything else about the Halo universe that we watched bungie create- only to see bungie dismiss a lot of the original and IMO, coolest parts.

  • 09.27.2010 2:46 PM PDT

On hiding dead bodies:
Posted by: Psuedo
Posted by: teh Chaz
Inside another dead body. It's the last place they'll look
A corpse within a corpse.
CORPSEPTION.
Win.

Posted by: Foley vonAwesom
but interviews with the authors (some of whom are bungie staff) have shown the books to have been written following an established "story bible;" and released after review and approval by bungie.

I have not watched the legendary commentary yet, though I believe that combined with the link I provided earlier cements this point:
Bungie has decided to cater to those who have only played the games.
Which bothered a lot of us, because we invested time and money enjoying everything else about the Halo universe that we watched bungie create- only to see bungie dismiss a lot of the original and IMO, coolest parts.
At my side is the OXM UK review of Halo Reach - (p77, issue 65) Reach strips out convoluted and bloated continuity (canon) for a self-contained tale of a six-strong squad...That is a game reviewer, saying in their review of the game, that they believe Reach is non-canon, or at the very least is it's own canon.

If even a game reviewer can say that they feel Reach is non-canon, surely that means we should be able to see it's non-canon. Sure as hell doesn't fit with much other canon.

[Edited on 09.27.2010 2:53 PM PDT]

  • 09.27.2010 2:52 PM PDT
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I'm with you in regards to enjoying reach for what it is and the fun it provides. I agree that the plot and most things we are shown should be ignored in favor of what we knew to be right.

  • 09.27.2010 3:04 PM PDT

</ Debate is now closed! Voting will commence! />

>> There is no need. >>

<< We are, at last, agreed. <<

  • 09.27.2010 3:07 PM PDT

On hiding dead bodies:
Posted by: Psuedo
Posted by: teh Chaz
Inside another dead body. It's the last place they'll look
A corpse within a corpse.
CORPSEPTION.
Win.


Posted by: Hysterical Joker
</ Debate is now closed! Voting will commence! />

>> There is no need. >>

<< We are, at last, agreed. <<
Quote from The Committee? Never listened to them, but it sounds like it.

  • 09.27.2010 3:15 PM PDT

Yes

  • 09.27.2010 3:20 PM PDT

I write poetry, I write short-stories, I listen to hip-hop (80s&90s), Reggae, Classic Rock n Roll, Heavy Metal, Jazz, Blues, and the 60s, 70s.


Posted by: Hysterical Joker

Posted by: Yakov Sidorov

Posted by: xReconAssassinX

Posted by: JDYeash937 MkII

Posted by: Yakov Sidorov
Games->Books->Halo Waypoint->Halo Legends

Thats Halo canon for you, deal with it.
Excessive handwavium. That just means if there is a conflict like armour colour, name or date or w/e, the game comes top. It was never intended to be used for the massive retcons that Reach makes, but has been, and people defend it with that excuse.

Seriously tell me you would say the same thing if 343 had made Reach with that many canon errors.
That's really not the attitude people in this forum should take. It's about challenging and discussing canon, saying "oh, bungie said it's this, but now they say it's that, oh that's ok then" totally defeats the purpose of this forum.

Agreed, and as of right now I'm following the books canon, because if the series were of the games canon all we'd know of the lore is whatever is in Halsey's Journal and the story of Reach and the Halos, I'd rather follow the canon that has Halo lore decades back, and tells the story of Reach and the Halos.


The books' covers say "Based on the bestselling Xbox game...
Halo (Insert Title)."

Keyword BASED.

'Nuff Said.


Hometown here should read Bungie's comments on the books.


I'm not saying that the books are not canon,I enjoyed "Ghosts of Onyx" and "The Cole Protocal",what I am saying is that Bungie can and will,if need be,change the canon of Halo.Remember games rank first and most people have not read all or if any of the books,so Bungie made all the players(those who did read the books and those who didn't) able to understand the games.

  • 09.27.2010 3:47 PM PDT

On hiding dead bodies:
Posted by: Psuedo
Posted by: teh Chaz
Inside another dead body. It's the last place they'll look
A corpse within a corpse.
CORPSEPTION.
Win.

Posted by: Yakov Sidorov
I'm not saying that the books are not canon,I enjoyed "Ghosts of Onyx" and "The Cole Protocal",what I am saying is that Bungie can and will,if need be,change the canon of Halo.Remember games rank first and most people have not read all or if any of the books,so Bungie made all the players(those who did read the books and those who didn't) able to understand the games.
Agreeing that books are canon, then saying that Bungie can and does change canon at their discretion effectively makes books non-canon.

Because they now have details in them that cannot change without a re-release that we have to pay money for. Thus, why we don't like canon changes. Also because, while we get good, hard-worked-for stuff out of it (Reach), it is lazy from a story-telling point, because they haven't looked for a way to make it fit with established canon, they've disregarded it entirely and made it its own canon.
They then said "it's our last Halo game" which got half the people going "aaaw, don't hate on Bungie for making canon errors, when we would have gone sick at 343 long ago".
They also used the excuse 'games>books, New>old' which was NEVER INTENDED to be used for the massive retcons it has been used for, just for a minor inconsistency.

Most interesting idea I've seen is that we say that Reach is a game actually in the Haloverse, and is made by ONI Section Two (Propaganda), and is meant to make the Fall of Reach seem much more hard-fought and valiant than the two-hour obliterative sneak attack that it was.
Quite a good, and even plausible idea, actually.

  • 09.27.2010 11:25 PM PDT


Posted by: JDYeash937 MkII
Most interesting idea I've seen is that we say that Reach is a game actually in the Haloverse, and is made by ONI Section Two (Propaganda), and is meant to make the Fall of Reach seem much more hard-fought and valiant than the two-hour obliterative sneak attack that it was.
Quite a good, and even plausible idea, actually.


Hell, why not.

  • 09.27.2010 11:41 PM PDT

There is no hunting like the hunting of man, and those who have hunted armed men long enough and liked it, never care for anything else thereafter.

In my mind the biggest break in cannon is The Pillar of Autumn being docked on the planet Reach: - the best I can do though is propose possible solutions or circumnavigations around this break as abandoning the canon I love would just fail to hard!

Within Dr.Halseys journal we learn of an AI's ability to 'split' itself into two fragments and (if these fragments are re absorbed within a few days) merge again without severe side effects. This roughly explains how Cortana is supposed to be both aboard the PoA and absorbing the Forerunner data within Halsey's lab during the same time period.

We also learn of the deeper personal relationship between Halsey and Keys (its pretty much confirmed that Miranda Keys is her daughter)which may provide us with the reason the PoA is docked on Reach in the first place!

Obviousley this will require a little juggling with times and a stretch of the imagination to conceive BUT! And stick with me here. It is possible that Halsey upon realising humanities hopes for survival rest upon the Forerunner data held within Cortana (or at least her fragment?) sent an emergency missive to the only man she could trust with such a prize and the only ship with the survivability to ensure its relative safety The Pillar of Autumn!

Obviousley this is pure speculation but it is not completely unbelievable that Cpt.Keyes would pull off one of his signature loops (docking in the process) in order to retrieve data he has been told could save humanity- especially when he has been told this by the mother of his daughter and all round genius lover Dr Halsey.

Ideally I wouldnt be making excuses; -but we've been left with a gap to fill and thats all we can do. This little speculative addition to the narrative is one of many potentials that could be filling a void we have been left with- I just thought I would make something that fits (well, in a rough fashion) with the canon and sounds dramatic enough to make it into the Halo Universe! If we consider that TFoR book gives us time-stamped/ dated chapters we arent really left with much maneuvering space and can only really work with the scant hours/ days betwixt chapters.

-I will add references to the Halsey journal and TFoR at some point in the future when I can be bothered!

Another point I suppose I could make is that that the reprint of TFoR has extra text added at the end of the book which describes correspondance between Keyes and another party. Dont have it at hand at the moment but long story short Keyes complains about the fact that he has been told to keep the discovery of the covenant on Reach a secret from his crew. This means that the Covenant presence on Reach is obviousley being kept under wraps for moral purposes etc etc by ONI.

Furthermore the breach in the Cole P. is not necessarily a massive canon break when you consider the Circumference's database was not linked with the rest of the UNSC battlenet and therefore could not be purged remotely. At least thats what I remember from the briefing Master Chief gets when he is set the task to destroy the NaV data in the first place.

As for the errors surrounding the SIII's, well, Im not sure how to explain that one away other than pointing you towards this and saying that Ackersons programmes where all shrouded in mystery anyways! Kurt could be getting fed just as much black ink as a civvy in terms of his Spartans operations once out on the field. The text I linked you towards though suggests either that random III's where selected for 'spec ops' work or even that new sets of Spartan III candidates where recruited between the two known programmes in order to fullfill these 'spec op' roles.

This is all just speculation given a basic level of credance through sourcing the new journal and reprinted TFoR novel. Regardless I to would like to see some clarifications where the Halo canon is concerned but until then Im just going to stick to this rough interpretation of events and hope for the best.

---As for the loopholes in the space battles... Im at a loss. Suffice to say it could have been something to do with the supercarreier jumping in orbit and surprising the defending fleet. Meh. Poor canon =<.

[Edited on 09.28.2010 12:31 AM PDT]

  • 09.28.2010 12:10 AM PDT

to me halo canon is not broken, i mean in the space Battle DID YOU NOT SEE HOW BIG REACH WAS?.

To me oni found out but wanted to send other units in the non spartan side and use a small team of spartans to smother it, so the others could be trained, also when chief does the course it gives you a sense of Loss, as a battle is under way Oni knowing reach is Gone want the spartans at full strength. to capter the prophet. to make this war stop before earth is taken, perhaps the generals who stayed didnt no of this so thats why they wanted the other spartans ( rereading reach cant remember much of the story)

also shoudnt we wait for the flood refitted and first strike before we go nutso, canon is fine read halseys and use common sense BIG planet, communications gone down giving time for the covenant to slipthrough, Gaps in the books timeline to add canon, and ONI...

[Edited on 09.28.2010 2:08 AM PDT]

  • 09.28.2010 2:06 AM PDT

OMG a Pwny!

Everything can fit into canon and become one well thought out piece of fiction, until the Pillar of Autumn.

That's the only thing I need an explanation for. I have Noble Team handled, Halsey is figured out, the rest is taken care of, I just want closure on the Pillar.

  • 09.28.2010 8:35 AM PDT

GROSSMAN: Do you think of the Culture as a utopia? Would you live in it, if you could?

BANKS: Good grief yes, to both! What's not to like? ...Well, unless you're actually a fascist or a power junkie or sincerely believe that money rather than happiness is what really matters in life. And even people with those bizarre beliefs are catered for in the Culture, albeit in extreme-immersion VR environments.

KOTOR

As I don't have TFoR to hand, can I ask, does it specifically say that the PoA was in space before the battle? I know there's a bit where Keyes inspects it in a (Longsword? Pelican?) does it actually say that he was in space when he did that? Because you can do that in atmosphere. Just a thought.

I haven't read TFoR in three or so months, so I'm hazy on the details, so could someone check this for me? I've misplaced my copy at my other parent's house. Thanks

  • 09.28.2010 9:30 AM PDT

Yes, I'm a furry. And yes, I like men. So what?

They'll probably do a novel reissue of the Fall of Reach (which is sitting right next to me, go figure) to fix this slumload of canonical errors.

  • 09.28.2010 9:31 AM PDT
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Posted by: Orphius_Rex
As I don't have TFoR to hand, can I ask, does it specifically say that the PoA was in space before the battle? I know there's a bit where Keyes inspects it in a (Longsword? Pelican?) does it actually say that he was in space when he did that? Because you can do that in atmosphere. Just a thought.

I haven't read TFoR in three or so months, so I'm hazy on the details, so could someone check this for me? I've misplaced my copy at my other parent's house. Thanks
He was in a Longsword to personally inspect the damage he had done to the Iroquois, after the Keye's Loop maneuver(I think), while it was being repaired by Cradle.

[Edited on 09.28.2010 10:17 AM PDT]

  • 09.28.2010 9:43 AM PDT

OMG a Pwny!


Posted by: xXFatal v1
Posted by: Orphius_Rex
As I don't have TFoR to hand, can I ask, does it specifically say that the PoA was in space before the battle? I know there's a bit where Keyes inspects it in a (Longsword? Pelican?) does it actually say that he was in space when he did that? Because you can do that in atmosphere. Just a thought.

I haven't read TFoR in three or so months, so I'm hazy on the details, so could someone check this for me? I've misplaced my copy at my other parent's house. Thanks
It was in space.

Chapter 28:

0400 Hours, August 30, 2552 (Military Calendar) /
UNSC Pillar of Autumn , in orbit around Epsilon Eridani System, Reach Military Complex
This is where Captain Keyes first boards the PoA.

He was in a Longsword to personally inspect the damage he had done to the Iroquois, after the Keye's Loop maneuver(I think), while it was being repaired by Cradle.


Actually in Chapter 28 it says that Keyes is in a shuttle pod, in 29 we learn that it's name is Coda. It's also in 29 that we learn it's in space, as it mentions space docks.

Really, I think things could have been fudged to work if the games mission had taken place at like 1am.

  • 09.28.2010 10:00 AM PDT
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Yeah, he's in a shuttle pod en route to the PoA, but you're right, my bad. :P

[Edited on 09.28.2010 10:17 AM PDT]

  • 09.28.2010 10:03 AM PDT

GROSSMAN: Do you think of the Culture as a utopia? Would you live in it, if you could?

BANKS: Good grief yes, to both! What's not to like? ...Well, unless you're actually a fascist or a power junkie or sincerely believe that money rather than happiness is what really matters in life. And even people with those bizarre beliefs are catered for in the Culture, albeit in extreme-immersion VR environments.

KOTOR

Posted by: xXFatal v1
Yeah, he's in a shuttle pod en route to the PoA, but you're right, my bad. :P


Thanks guys, I couldn't remember what had been written. So it was in a space dock? If they pushed the mission back to 1AM then we'd be fighting in the dark... Why can't they push it back to the day before? Move the ENTIRE story of Halo Reach back a day? Would it be patchable though (Changing some dates in some cutscenes)?

  • 09.28.2010 10:30 AM PDT

On hiding dead bodies:
Posted by: Psuedo
Posted by: teh Chaz
Inside another dead body. It's the last place they'll look
A corpse within a corpse.
CORPSEPTION.
Win.


Posted by: Orphius_Rex
Posted by: xXFatal v1
Yeah, he's in a shuttle pod en route to the PoA, but you're right, my bad. :P


Thanks guys, I couldn't remember what had been written. So it was in a space dock? If they pushed the mission back to 1AM then we'd be fighting in the dark... Why can't they push it back to the day before? Move the ENTIRE story of Halo Reach back a day? Would it be patchable though (Changing some dates in some cutscenes)?
It wouldn't be patched like that, no-one but us would care for a story change by editing all the cutscene dates.

1am on 30th August puts us nearly 4 hours before the main Covenant fleet arrives at Reach, 314 ships there solely to engage the UNSC Fleet over Reach, then glass the planet. So it's logical, but not when you put how PoA should have been in a space dock, not on the ground. TFOR needs rewriting, again, or Reach is not canon. The end of it.

  • 09.28.2010 10:34 AM PDT

OMG a Pwny!

If the mission of PoA happened on the 29th that makes a couple of issues, because at 0600 Halsey is with John working on his neural upgrade for Cortana.

I have a theory that is a bit half baked. If the times in the game are mission time, and not world time, it could, maybe, possibly work. Especially if Reach has a different sunrise/sunset time than Earth.

  • 09.28.2010 10:37 AM PDT