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This topic has moved here: Subject: Unexplainable errors in the Halo canon. (Spoilers)
  • Subject: Unexplainable errors in the Halo canon. (Spoilers)
Subject: Unexplainable errors in the Halo canon. (Spoilers)

Et Eärello Endorenna utúlien.
Sinome maruvan ar Hildinyar.
tenn' Ambar-metta!


Posted by: SirPwn4g3
I'm guessing that the teams that went missing on Onyx weren't taken by the "Ghosts of Onyx", but pulled for other missions, Headhunters, Noble team, etc. S-II's were deployed all over, Grey team, Black team, Kurt, just like Halsey said about Noble 6: lots of black ink.

Also, for anyone wondering about peoples age, cryo freezing. Carter is a perfect example. He was orphaned from Biko, my theory is that as a child he was frozen until a foster home or orphanage was found, he fit the genetic markers, so he was thawed and put in the S-III program. He may chronologically be older than all the other kids, but biologically he's the same age.



Good point. When Dr. Halsey and the rest of Kurt's S-III and the other S-II get in, only find Team Saber? or Katana? in cryo sleep only. Those children were never found and i don't think the drones killed them.

Plus Gray Team and Black Team were only reassigned, but the S-III kind of kidnapped. What bothers me is they were taken too young before indoctrination from Onyx. Probably they are so rebel-like? They didn't have the chance to be deep indoctrinated?

[Edited on 09.28.2010 8:17 PM PDT]

  • 09.28.2010 8:11 PM PDT
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Just finished watching the legendary commentary:
"Oh, it's like a jig saw puzzle, fits perfectly"

yea, only if you include the games- or if you rewrite a lot of pre- existing canon. Way to skirt the elephant in the room.

Also, "Legendary Ending." yea, glad you forgot to put that in- based on the tone of the voices and how the conversation brushed it aside, it sounds like they intended for it to be there but it somehow didn't make the cut. neato.


*******
also- WAYPOINT. holy -blam!-, no being able to download the commentary. if you get disconnected, you get cut off. BUFFERING. Since it's no longer launch day you can't find it anymore? what the -blam!-?

Seriously, I had to re DL the legendary content 3 times, and the commentary no longer appears in my waypoint anyways. whoever was responsible for that screw up can go straight to halo.

I mad- there I was watching it in glorious HD, when my wireless connection blipped for not even a second and instantly signed me back in; but the damage was done. I had to watch the final 15 minutes on youtube.

I feel better having ranted though.

Although, how the hell do you find the commentary in waypoint? It's no longer coming up for me.

  • 09.28.2010 8:32 PM PDT

Here's my theory:

The AI Assembly in the Data Pads control ONI.

They manipulated the Covenant into discovering Reach for two purposes:
1)To prevent Dr. Sorvad from sending Dr. Halsey the latchkey. The Covenant arrive conveniently right after he sent Halsey a message that he was going to send it.
2)Upon discovering Reach suddenly (the Zealots were anticipating a ruined Forerunner site) as humanity's stronghold, they overreacted and wiped it out quickly. Assuming the AI Assembly did cause the Covenant to come to Reach, the alternative is that the Covenant might have taken a few years to find it. MJOLNIR or more Spartans, or anything else might have turned the tide of the war by then. The ultimate purpose of causing Reach to fall so soon is to guarantee that TRUTH OPENS THE ARK.

So, the AI, if they had deep access to the Covenant Bnet (Cortana waltzed around in it during First Strike), could have known about the Ark and everything, they may have even listened in on Mendicant Bias and his rantings. To get the Zealots to come to Reach, all they'd have to do is pick Reach from their long list of Forerunner artifacts to explore, and move it to the top in their computers.

There was a two day delay. When Sorvad discovered the latchkey, the AI could have obtained it, disabled the comms array, then cause the Covenant to come. In Halsey's journal, there are two days between the comms array dying, a special forces team disappearing, and the arrival of NOBLE.

Would the holes in the cannon be explained if you knew that humanity was being manipulated by to level ONI AIs that wanted the Covenant to destroy Reach, but didn't want the humans to think they were doing this? I think so.

So, then, what is NOBLE team?

Carter is a Major, right? Six is an LT. Master Chief was a, well, Master Chief Petty Officer. The highest Naval enlisted rank.

So how are two NOBLE team Spartans officer? Probably because they were officers before becoming Spartans. The implication is that there are Spartans besides the S-III's and that Ackerson's (or Whitcomb's) efforts to streamline the Spartan technology for regular humans have been fruitful. What if the S-III program wasn't meant to produce a viable fighting force, but was a sick guinea pig experiment to transition S-II technology for general use? Halo 3, and Reach, have MP armor variants of multiple 'private makes'.

That being said, what would be the purpose of these special teams? Well, consider that if the AI running ONI didn't want the humans to know about the Forerunner, or have the latchkey, but NOBLE successfully prevented that, then the Spartans are maybe counter AI?

What I mean to say is that perhaps Whitcomb or somebody made these special Spartans in such secrecy that even ONI barely knew about it. The purpose of the teams was to investigate intelligence breaches within the UNSC.

We know from the Data Pads that the AI have been manipulating humanity for centuries. We also know that one of them is the reason the Covenant was first contacted. Wouldn't some human eventually find out? More plausibly, wouldn't some humans begin to suspect some force was pulling strings.

I'd bet NOBLE was a tippity-top secret task force investigating this security breach. Hence, they were deployed to Visegrad. Hence, the lack of great surprise upon finding Covenant. Yes, there's the school of 'its only a matter of time' cynicism. But it would make more sense that NOBLE was already investigating whether humans - within the UNSC or rebels - were communicating with the Covenant. Maybe they never would suspect the ONI AIs.

This twist: that these AIs are causing the Covenant to win against humanity, that some humans suspect that this shadow force within the UNSC is the 'real enemy', this explains the holes in the cannon VERY VERY well.

But the implications bring us deeper down the rabbit hole.

Why would these AI, who in the Data Pads talk about protecting humanity as their mission and reason for being, want to expose humanity to the Covenant.

Well, the last Data Pad with the AI mentions that the AI no longer want to be 'stewards' of humanity, but 'true companions'. Earlier, they discuss Halsey's idea of using Slipspace to make an AI that could live forever and know any/everything. They wonder if that might not be the solution, as opposed to constantly trying to improve mankind to protect (by making Spartan-II type humans). Maybe by this point they've decided: "Screw humanity". Just after the last data pad.

Maybe they discover the truth about the Ark, and so forth. Here's why I think they have.

On another forum, Godle55 Heathen wrote:
and a side note, no one has mentioned this either
but if you look at the letters in which there are numbers, you get


"Why, to, time, for, statis, because, truth, going, find door, all sometime, themselves think, for, tried, answer, talk, numbers, symbols, path always, been, going.


Because Truth Find Door

What if whatever the Great Journey is is what the AI decide that they want. What if they decide it's the only option for themselves and humanity? And so they make it their mission to get to the Ark.

Only the Prophet of Truth has a Keyship. And the portal is on Earth. Humanity would have to lose the war for the two to ever meet.

Plus, as someone posted way early on and was ignored: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IZhBaMo0aTo&feature=player _embedded

You play the audio that goes with the Data Pads backwards, and you have the same crap that was spoken (presumably by Mendicant Bias) on the Ark when Master Chief read the terminals there. In fact, during the Legendary commentary, one of the many things Marty O'Donnell says that everyone shushes is that he points out an audio credit for "The Voice of the Terminals". This pretty much confirms that that audio for the DPs is the same as the Ark terminals.

  • 09.28.2010 11:02 PM PDT

So even in my wildest dreams I could barely imagine Mendicant Bias corrupting this AI Assembly, but this audio thing is a significant find. Maybe Mendicant Bias is OBSESSED with getting back to the Ark to 'make ammends' with the Forerunner. He's controlled by the Covenant, but he manipulates them ("Oh, please don't kill the helpless little Reclaimers that render your entire political and religious hierarchy null and void"). Maybe the human ONI AIs got in touch with Mendicant Bias (in one data pad they mention trying to reach out to Covenant AI), and he used the same stupid logic against them that the Flood used against him: the mantle is false. "You don't want to 'protect' humanity. The only proper natural next step for humanity transcends humanity." In otherwords, the Forerunner Mantle seemed to be to preserve and protect species. The Flood said: "Hey, what makes these weak little species so great? Isn't my superiority in killing and absorbing them justification enough that I deserve to take over?"

**(For the philosophical crowd, especially Ayn Rand readers, this is known as the invalidation of identity: a thing is what it is. Humanity cannot transcend humanity, if they did, they wouldn't be 'human' anymore. Being human means having human weakness. Transcending human weakness means not being human. Only an outside observer can consider an identity in the same sense as a non-identity. Only a 'shepard' of humanity could consider transcending humanity for the sake of humanity. If you were to 'transcend' yourself, you'd be dead. But logical beings think very rigidly, and are susceptible to this argument.)PHILOSOPHY OVER***

What if Mendicant Bias told the human AI: "hey, what's so great about humanity if they're so weak? You constantly have been trying to improve them in order to save them, but the final product isn't even human. So: why try to protect humanity at all. Go for 'ultimate' transcendance. In other words: let humanity die, and join me in the 'Great Journey'"

What would be the most humane way to kill all humanity? Firing Halo.

So, MB wants to get to the Ark, and uses the same argument he fell for and has been regretting and brooding over for millenia against the human AI. Which, the human are also the Reclaimers. Miranda Keyes turned on the Halo Array, and that's what put the Ark on standby. Getting to the Ark was a mighty task for MB. In fact, one might wonder if he hadn't orchestrated the very FORMATION of the Covenant. All to get back to the Ark.

Also, here's a random speculation: maybe something about the human brain makes it usable for AI. Maybe this is why humans are reclaimers also. Not going there now...

What happened though was that NOBLE team, then Master Chief, stopped the Halo Array from firing.

Consider that they did NOT stop Reach from being destroyed, Earth from being reached, or the Ark from being accessed. So what? Maybe MB wanted that. But then why work so hard to prevent the latchkey from reaching Halsey? I don't think Bungie would make an entire game about Cortana getting delivered to the Pillar of Autumn if it wasn't important.

Because the one thing Master Chief did accomplish was prevent the firing of the Halo Arrays. This is what the Prophet of Truth was obsessed with doing. This is what Master Chief time and again prevented. If Mendicant Bias was behind a lot of this, then it seems NOBLE's actions worked to prevent the firing.

That's why I'm assuming that MB manipulated the human AI into wanting that. I don't know why he would, though. It seems like he would only want to get to the Ark.

Maybe there are more clues here:

1)Data Pad backwards audio
2)The numbered words from the data pads
3)Halsey's missing two pages
4)Some weird secret stuff - like the hindu scrawled in Halsey's journal, or the Reach map, or the fact that ON THE BACK OF THE LETTER INCLUDED IN THE LEGENDARY EDITION THAT TALKS ABOUT THE STATUE THERE IS GIBBERISH CODE - YEAH RIGHT, THAT'S A PRETTY LAZY THING TO PUT ON THE BACK OF A PIECE OF PAPER FOR $150. Or some other weird code.


[Edited on 09.28.2010 11:06 PM PDT]

  • 09.28.2010 11:04 PM PDT

Not sure how much of that I want to read through, but one valid point that I was wondering the same thing... Why are Noble Officers... :-/

  • 09.29.2010 5:54 AM PDT


Posted by: The Enforcer OS
Not sure how much of that I want to read through, but one valid point that I was wondering the same thing... Why are Noble Officers... :-/


Bungie stated that Noble were given higher ranks because they were going to be heavily involved with Marines and other personell as opposed to solo missions.

  • 09.29.2010 6:35 AM PDT

The Brave are the first to DIE

Why write books when Bungie will completly destroy what the authors say? Games over Books, they say. Bungie should have stopped milking the fanbase if that was to be their response!!

  • 09.29.2010 7:01 AM PDT

I find the Games > books argument to be juvenile ... The point is a franchise has to have all of its media forms working together.

I hope 343 gets its own site to address some of these things w/ the community.

  • 09.29.2010 7:15 AM PDT

"From now until the end of the world, we and it shall be remebered, for we band of brothers"
Foxtrot Company
UNSCDF
Coup D Bungie
gt and alt. account is RainFall277

What's weird is, even though Reach has numerous inconsistency with the normal(old) canon, they still worked with Eric Nylund when they were writing Halsey's journal to make it so that the story would fit into the existing canon.

  • 09.29.2010 7:25 AM PDT
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Posted by: ODST123
What's weird is, even though Reach has numerous inconsistency with the normal(old) canon, they still worked with Eric Nylund when they were writing Halsey's journal to make it so that the story would fit into the existing canon.
They tried to sugar-coat it.

  • 09.29.2010 7:28 AM PDT
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Posted by: The Enforcer OS
I find the Games > books argument to be juvenile ... The point is a franchise has to have all of its media forms working together.

I hope 343 gets its own site to address some of these things w/ the community.
http://halo.xbox.com/forums/

You don't need to make an account. It uses your Windows Live ID.

  • 09.29.2010 7:30 AM PDT

Thanks Fatal, I'll have to keep on eye on that too, although I suspect both communities to be equally challenging. :)

  • 09.29.2010 7:33 AM PDT

I think turokman may be onto something.

  • 09.29.2010 7:41 AM PDT
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I am the best person on this website. No exceptions.

The universe elite? So god damn laughable. Get the -blam!- down off that pedestal.

[Edited on 09.29.2010 7:44 AM PDT]

  • 09.29.2010 7:42 AM PDT
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dude i thout it was linda in the cryo tube

  • 09.29.2010 7:43 AM PDT


Posted by: the heakes
dude i thout it was linda in the cryo tube


I didn't think that was the case especially since people would rather see MC in the game, but it would be one less thing to break canon, but it still doesn't change the fact Linda wasn't put into cryo until after the destruction of the Circumference which was again in space not planetside. :-/

  • 09.29.2010 9:12 AM PDT

There is no hunting like the hunting of man, and those who have hunted armed men long enough and liked it, never care for anything else thereafter.

Posted by: the heakes
dude i thout it was linda in the cryo tube


I didn't think that was the case especially since people would rather see MC in the game, but it would be one less thing to break canon, but it still doesn't change the fact Linda wasn't put into cryo until after the destruction of the Circumference which was again in space not planetside. :-/



My earlier post in this thread proposes possible scenarios that could patch over the whole PoA planetside break in canon, or at a minimum presents the possibility for the PoA's docking being a possibility.

Im really hoping we get some sort of official statement of some sort from 343 before they go on to release any more Halo games; -it would be nice to have the canon fleshed out and seemless before anything brand new is invested in the franchise. Its such a shame because independantly both the books and games are brilliant in their own respecive ways and all it would take it a little clarification on 343's part to make things perfect again!

As a side note TFOR comic-books being printed by Marvel may present us with some sort of saving grace. Chances are 343 will take on board the fact Bungie dun goofed a little (canon wise, the game is great!) and try and rectify it with the upcoming comic-book series. Fingers crossed guys.

  • 09.29.2010 11:37 AM PDT

I hope they will, for being such a cash cow, I struggle believing they'd run canon into the ground... :-/ I left off halfway through Bloodline, so prior to that is the only territory I'm familiar w/ comic wise.

A previous post about time shifting might be one of the more legit options... if so the bigger question would be 'Why' an entity would shift things just enough to alter things by merely a few weeks / days... and what that changes in the long run... ie Reaching Halo sooner... kind of like what the new Star Trek movie did.

I wouldn't mind seeing some kind of intersection between Chief's new home on the drift ship, the shield world (surviving Spartans) and Spirit of Fire.

  • 09.29.2010 1:35 PM PDT

Estefano Palacios, 20 years old.
Current Clan: FUERZA ECUATORIANA.

At the end you'll understand that the best drink to get drunk with is your own blood...

I am finally reading English based literature (I am ecuadorian, so I mostly read Spanish based), and I am finding 1984 by Blair something out of this world. I have already read 30 out the 100 Time Best Novels, who'd though English would be so enjoyable?


Posted by: kippa
This may sound dispassionate, but I'm giving up on the lore of Halo. Too much of my time is dedicated to being on these forums, and I've recently (unofficially) learnt that Bungie purposefully made the canon errors to spite Microsoft and their employee, Eric Nylund.

It's unfortunate considering Nylund's story was actually better in every single aspect.

Anyway, I don't think I'll purchase any other Bungie games, unless they decide to one day actually care about their fans, not petty fights and making money.

Goodluck to everyone involved in the under-represented section of people that care about story.

-blam!- you bungie.


I feel exactly like this. I made a post about it but people kept telling me that Halsey's Journal fixed everything. It clearly doesn't.

  • 09.29.2010 4:00 PM PDT

Oh hey there

Posted by: petarded2
It's a metaphor for the 07s' lack of identity. too old to be newfa­g, yet too new to be oldfa­g, we wander b.net in search of a home, forever trying to be something we are not.

Posted by: MasterSin

Posted by: SirPwn4g3
I'm guessing that the teams that went missing on Onyx weren't taken by the "Ghosts of Onyx", but pulled for other missions, Headhunters, Noble team, etc. S-II's were deployed all over, Grey team, Black team, Kurt, just like Halsey said about Noble 6: lots of black ink.

Also, for anyone wondering about peoples age, cryo freezing. Carter is a perfect example. He was orphaned from Biko, my theory is that as a child he was frozen until a foster home or orphanage was found, he fit the genetic markers, so he was thawed and put in the S-III program. He may chronologically be older than all the other kids, but biologically he's the same age.



Good point. When Dr. Halsey and the rest of Kurt's S-III and the other S-II get in, only find Team Saber? or Katana? in cryo sleep only. Those children were never found and i don't think the drones killed them.

Plus Gray Team and Black Team were only reassigned, but the S-III kind of kidnapped. What bothers me is they were taken too young before indoctrination from Onyx. Probably they are so rebel-like? They didn't have the chance to be deep indoctrinated?

The children that were lost are most likely dead how could they survive the breaking up of the planet?

  • 09.29.2010 8:44 PM PDT

Signatures are for squares.


Posted by: The One Blarg
The universe elite? So god damn laughable. Get the -blam!- down off that pedestal.



The simple fact of the matter is, there's a handful of members in the universe section who have complete knowledge of pretty much everything Halo related. They've analyzed books, comics, and games. And they've made theories that took tons of time and effort.

Then, there are those who just have a gist of what's going on. That's why I mentioned, "Universe Elite," because they're the most well known members from the universe community. If you were around this forum more often, you might've taken less offense to that statement.

  • 09.30.2010 6:04 AM PDT

http://halo.wikia.com/wiki/Main_Page
The answer to (most of) your Halo related questions.

This seems like a rather big overreaction.

  • 09.30.2010 6:58 AM PDT

reaction to the name usage, or reaction the canon having issues?

  • 09.30.2010 8:01 AM PDT

Got Milk?

I don't buy into the arguement of "games overriding books canon" at all, especially as Bungie (with their mysterious 'bible' that has the key elements of the Halo universe) and 343 both claim that they have gone to painstaking lenghts to flesh out the Halo universe. It's dissapointing for me because as a fan of both the games and books, Reach, although highly enjoyable and a good stand alone story, really ruined the whole universe for me.

I really don't think I'll bother buying the books that continue the GoO storyline, might have a look at the Forerunner books though.

Many said that Reach would effectively break the Haloverse....and it looks like it has!

Can anyone suggest a practical way to fix this (if there is one)?

P.S = Posts like # turokman2000's above are the reason i still come here. Brilliant post :D !

[Edited on 09.30.2010 8:57 AM PDT]

  • 09.30.2010 8:52 AM PDT


Posted by: privet caboose

Posted by: The One Blarg
The universe elite? So god damn laughable. Get the -blam!- down off that pedestal.



The simple fact of the matter is, there's a handful of members in the universe section who have complete knowledge of pretty much everything Halo related. They've analyzed books, comics, and games. And they've made theories that took tons of time and effort.

Then, there are those who just have a gist of what's going on. That's why I mentioned, "Universe Elite," because they're the most well known members from the universe community. If you were around this forum more often, you might've taken less offense to that statement.


Dang, I really thought this pointless thread was going to die.

What you choose to do with your own time is your business, but reading all the published material does not make you God. If there are any Gods in the Halo Universe they now live in 343 studios. All those "tons of time and effort" mean nothing because it's not your job to create the Universe.

Yes, there are, have been, and always will be inconsistencies, and only 343 will live or die by how well they deal with them. I'm sure your opinions have been noted by the True Gods. Their Will be Done.

(Cue Halo Monk chant)

  • 09.30.2010 1:46 PM PDT