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This topic has moved here: Subject: Unexplainable errors in the Halo canon. (Spoilers)
  • Subject: Unexplainable errors in the Halo canon. (Spoilers)
Subject: Unexplainable errors in the Halo canon. (Spoilers)

On hiding dead bodies:
Posted by: Psuedo
Posted by: teh Chaz
Inside another dead body. It's the last place they'll look
A corpse within a corpse.
CORPSEPTION.
Win.

Posted by: Alf stewert
how can the POA not be on reach? it could of gone down to reach after the spartans Dropped off, and cheif off go to azod pick the second half of COrtana up, Jump back into space, which apparently bungie looked into to see how it would actually lift off, all you need to do is connect that up to the books, POA picks chief and linda up they jump, Red team jumps to reach and there we go, anyway if ou dont like how theyve treated canon, just believe how you want it. and about the ODP on reach, there was 20 of them, we were on the other half of reach, and reach is massive, also chances are the giant super carrier destroyed some or some covenant destroyed some, before we were in space.
I posted this earlier in order to prevent this from recurring. Nevertheless...

I shall just read out several quotes from Chapter 29. I just want the idea that it was 'okay' for PoA to land to just be blown straight out of the water, once and for all.

Tapped the thrusters
Space docks
In orbit around Reach
Shuttle pod moved closer (full quote implies great distance travelled)
Two separate mentions of 'drifting'
Cycled through the airlock

All of those say that PoA was IN SPACE for her refit. They also need to shakedown the engines before they move off, which in Reach are doing despite being landed on Reach's surface.

Putting PoA on Reach made no sense, and was simply an excuse to put 3 easter eggs, allusions to CE, into Reach. I would much rather have fought waiting for a single Pelican to relieve me of my Cortana fragment as opposed to the Pillar of Autumn sat dumbly on a shipbreaking docking clamp - it would have made some [censored term] sense. PoA planetside doesn't just screw canon, it buggers many different layers of logic in the tactical, strategic, logistic, and simple common sense.
PoA, being a much older fleet vessel, was never rated for atmosphere. Only 'modern' frigates in 2552 have ever been capable of manoeuvring in atmosphere. Whilst they could have fitted PoA with the (apparent) anti-grav technology that frigates have, it would only have been useful in their mission for getting off Reach, a planet that they wouldn't, shouldn't and couldn't have landed on anyway.

[Edited on 10.05.2010 11:17 PM PDT]

  • 10.05.2010 11:11 PM PDT
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As for the other Spartan IIs, I'd say this attack on Reach would make the job they were training for here, which they were hoping could end or lead to an end to the war, even more important so they'd be working on that... However, someone did just theorize that since the last mission, Lone Wolf, takes place where the PoA lifted off from, perhaps all the dead Spartan bodies you see in that mission are those SIIs, havin died defending the Autumn.

To your first point however, that's not really true. People have been getting up in arms like this since Halo 2 came out and totally broke cannon until other explanations were finally given as to the seeming discrepancies. Not all have ever really been resolved however. There are plenty of discrepancies that existed before Reach, a small one being the original statement in TFoR book that Elites hadn't been encountered by humans until the battle at Reach. So much in the way of little details from that first book has already been contradicted, this new game just seems to be the most blatant about it, but even other Halo books have contradicted that first book.

Posted by: Beowolfe

99% of people who would say game canon> book canon have not read the books. What you don't realize is that up until now, all the books fit in perfectly with the previous installments of games. Some unanswered questions, but definitely fits. Halo Reach bludgeoned its way in and just left a gaping hole in the entire story line. But that's another story.....

Spartan IIs were just as capable as Noble Team, if not more, and not to mention there was at least 20 of them on Reach. So why would you give the mission exclusively to the team of 5 Spartan IIIs+1 spartan II if you have 20 other Spartan IIs?

And that's just one question that now goes unanswered.


[Edited on 10.05.2010 11:48 PM PDT]

  • 10.05.2010 11:45 PM PDT

Et Eärello Endorenna utúlien.
Sinome maruvan ar Hildinyar.
tenn' Ambar-metta!


Posted by: Beowolfe

Posted by: like 20 wizards
ok, game canon> book canon.
The argument about the SPARTAN III's ages is a micro-error. The MAC Cannons may have been offline/different orbital pattern/destroyed or whatever.
The idea of reach falling in a day, well, thats difficult. I guess you could consider the first waves faced like a recon force, and the planets "1 day fall" being a reference to when the main covenant forces arrived, pwned some noobs, and glassed the planet.

99% of people who would say game canon> book canon have not read the books. What you don't realize is that up until now, all the books fit in perfectly with the previous installments of games. Some unanswered questions, but definitely fits. Halo Reach bludgeoned its way in and just left a gaping hole in the entire story line. But that's another story.
Your first 2 arguments are valid, albeit the second being less so. However, Reach was described to have been destroyed and glassed in one day in the book. Halo Reach dragged out the entire event to a few weeks, which raises MANY questions. For example...where the hell were the other Spartan IIs? They were defending the generators in the books, but the story in the books lasted one single day. So if Bungie want to stretch the entire battle, what exactly were these Spartan IIs doing?

Spartan IIs were just as capable as Noble Team, if not more, and not to mention there was at least 20 of them on Reach. So why would you give the mission exclusively to the team of 5 Spartan IIIs+1 spartan II if you have 20 other Spartan IIs?

And that's just one question that now goes unanswered.


I believe since the Spartans-II were more than Noble Team and better trained, they were defending the generators for the MAC cannons, now that was a high risk important mission to focus.

  • 10.06.2010 12:27 AM PDT

@JDYeash937 MkII we dont know it could of gotten reffited with a few new things also picking up the other half of cortana, would of been very important, Why? well halseys and keyes relationship would of made him appreciiate her orders even more, Also like all the other canon breaks we believed happpened with the release of halo 2 and 3 and ODST and wars, over time this will all be explained so were best off waiting.

[Edited on 10.06.2010 1:33 AM PDT]

  • 10.06.2010 1:23 AM PDT
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I CAN HAS RECON?

No you cannot has Recon.




Error: Alpha Company was wiped out completely during Operation: PROMETHEUS in 2537. Carter, Emile, and Jun should not be alive.

Proof: Halo: Ghosts of Onyx goes into quite a bit of detail on Operation: PROMETHEUS. Spartan-III Alpha Company (comprised of 300 Spartans) were sent to K7-49 on a mission to destroy plasma reactors the Covenant were using to liquefy metallurgical components.

The operation was a success, but it is explicitly stated that it cost the lives of every Spartan-III on the asteroid because they got cut off from their Calypso-class Exfiltration crafts and completely lost their unit cohesion.

Halo Reach chooses to ignore this. Carter (A-259), Emile (A-239), and Jun (A-266) are a part of Noble Team when they should have been dead years ago; Bungie have given us no explanation on how they escaped at all.

Sources:
- Ghosts of Onyx, page 83-87.
- Halo Reach



In Halo cannon it is said that some of the very best Spartan III's (i.e. Noble Team) were pulled out of operation PROMETHEUS by Chief Mendez and Kurt and given MJONLIR armour.

  • 10.06.2010 1:32 AM PDT


Posted by: Alf stewert
how can the POA not be on reach? it could of gone down to reach after the spartans Dropped off, and cheif off go to azod pick the second half of COrtana up, Jump back into space, which apparently bungie looked into to see how it would actually lift off, all you need to do is connect that up to the books, POA picks chief and linda up they jump, Red team jumps to reach and there we go, anyway if ou dont like how theyve treated canon, just believe how you want it. and about the ODP on reach, there was 20 of them, we were on the other half of reach, and reach is massive, also chances are the giant super carrier destroyed some or some covenant destroyed some, before we were in space.


I was going to pitch the theory of PoA landing & taking off again, but that is too much of a stretch, albeit the closest. The Easter Egg would be invalid for one. Also where does the idea of another half of Cortana come from? o_0 since she was already on board the PoA in entirety. Plus if PoA landed there would have been no reason for Red Team to get shot down while coming in. "Sweet, PoA is landing, let's take a ship of our own anyway" logic may not have set so well.

I don't find issue w/ not seeing SII's in Reach, Red Team's mission is not aligned w/ Noble's. I however do not think the dead Spartan's in Lone Wolf have anything to do w/ SII's most of them died during the orbit drop, or while fighting the covenant or after leaving Reach. Given the inclusion & appearance of SIII's the dead spartan's look more like SIII's than Mjolnir Mark V Spartan II's.

[Edited on 10.06.2010 6:54 AM PDT]

  • 10.06.2010 6:12 AM PDT

OMG a Pwny!


Posted by: MajesticFatElf



Error: Alpha Company was wiped out completely during Operation: PROMETHEUS in 2537. Carter, Emile, and Jun should not be alive.

Proof: Halo: Ghosts of Onyx goes into quite a bit of detail on Operation: PROMETHEUS. Spartan-III Alpha Company (comprised of 300 Spartans) were sent to K7-49 on a mission to destroy plasma reactors the Covenant were using to liquefy metallurgical components.

The operation was a success, but it is explicitly stated that it cost the lives of every Spartan-III on the asteroid because they got cut off from their Calypso-class Exfiltration crafts and completely lost their unit cohesion.

Halo Reach chooses to ignore this. Carter (A-259), Emile (A-239), and Jun (A-266) are a part of Noble Team when they should have been dead years ago; Bungie have given us no explanation on how they escaped at all.

Sources:
- Ghosts of Onyx, page 83-87.
- Halo Reach



In Halo cannon it is said that some of the very best Spartan III's (i.e. Noble Team) were pulled out of operation PROMETHEUS by Chief Mendez and Kurt and given MJONLIR armour.


You got lost somewhere back in the first few pages of this, hell son you've been lost since well before the game was launched. What Bungie didn't explain about this, we have.

There are other Spartan 3's on different parts of Onyx, and different planets training for other ops (headhunters and Noble are perfect examples). That's why they "survived" those missions, they were never there. Carter is probably so old due to cryosleep.

Please do some reading before posting.

[Edited on 10.06.2010 6:17 AM PDT]

  • 10.06.2010 6:16 AM PDT

Signatures are for squares.

I really don't buy the, "Carter spent 5+ years in cryo sleep even though he's only 11" excuse.

  • 10.06.2010 9:35 AM PDT

On hiding dead bodies:
Posted by: Psuedo
Posted by: teh Chaz
Inside another dead body. It's the last place they'll look
A corpse within a corpse.
CORPSEPTION.
Win.


Posted by: The Enforcer OS
I was going to pitch the theory of PoA landing & taking off again, but that is too much of a stretch, albeit the closest. The Easter Egg would be invalid for one. Also where does the idea of another half of Cortana come from? o_0 since she was already on board the PoA in entirety. Plus if PoA landed there would have been no reason for Red Team to get shot down while coming in. "Sweet, PoA is landing, let's take a ship of our own anyway" logic may not have set so well.

I don't find issue w/ not seeing SII's in Reach, Red Team's mission is not aligned w/ Noble's. I however do not think the dead Spartan's in Lone Wolf have anything to do w/ SII's most of them died during the orbit drop, or while fighting the covenant or after leaving Reach. Given the inclusion & appearance of SIII's the dead spartan's look more like SIII's than Mjolnir Mark V Spartan II's.
It is theorised that the battle that rages under the PoA (involving 2 Scarab walkers and many explosions) are Red Team defending orbital generators, or just the PoA. Total speculation, but another nice easter egg if it is.

Cortana had a fragment made, separate to the 'mother' Cortana. This fragment was able to soak up information from the Forerunner Artefact under SWORD base, and then be re-integrated with the real Cortana aboard PoA. This procedure is outlined in Halsey's Journal, in the 2540s(?).

Caboose, did Bungie ever state a reason for Emile, Jun and Carter being so old? I personally really do not see the reason for them being stupidly old for the purposes of the SPARTAN programme.

  • 10.06.2010 9:49 AM PDT

I still have to finish reading Halsey's journal, so I won't add anything more on Cortana until I do... :)

Emile's face we never see, so his age shouldn't be a conflict. IMO Jun looks young enough to be Spartan III. I think Carter is the only one in question in age / appearance.

[Edited on 10.06.2010 10:56 AM PDT]

  • 10.06.2010 10:56 AM PDT

Banned and proud of it.


Posted by: The Enforcer OS

Posted by: Computerexpert3
-9/14/10. The day Bungie ruined the Halo canon.

9/14/10. The day Nobody gave a -blam!-.


People discussing this subject don't care what you think.


Lol, typical no-life BAWWWWWing.

Who the -blam!- cares if Bungie got some dates wrong?

Gameplay ---> Story ---> Canon

  • 10.06.2010 11:23 AM PDT


Posted by: Computerexpert3

Posted by: The Enforcer OS

Posted by: Computerexpert3
-9/14/10. The day Bungie ruined the Halo canon.

9/14/10. The day Nobody gave a -blam!-.


People discussing this subject don't care what you think.


Lol, typical no-life BAWWWWWing.

Who the -blam!- cares if Bungie got some dates wrong?

Gameplay ---> Story ---> Canon


... Says the person who has nothing better to do than troll this thread. If you have a problem w/ the thread why are you in it? If you have more of a life then us, why are you on this forum?

  • 10.06.2010 11:40 AM PDT

On hiding dead bodies:
Posted by: Psuedo
Posted by: teh Chaz
Inside another dead body. It's the last place they'll look
A corpse within a corpse.
CORPSEPTION.
Win.


Posted by: Computerexpert3

Posted by: The Enforcer OS

Posted by: Computerexpert3
-9/14/10. The day Bungie ruined the Halo canon.

9/14/10. The day Nobody gave a -blam!-.


People discussing this subject don't care what you think.


Lol, typical no-life BAWWWWWing.

Who the -blam!- cares if Bungie got some dates wrong?

Gameplay ---> Story ---> Canon
Evidently we care, else this thread would not be in existence.

Kindly remove yourself from a forum dedicated to discussing canon, and thus incongruous dates.

  • 10.06.2010 3:10 PM PDT

Signatures are for squares.


Posted by: JDYeash937 MkII

Caboose, did Bungie ever state a reason for Emile, Jun and Carter being so old? I personally really do not see the reason for them being stupidly old for the purposes of the SPARTAN programme.


Bungie has yet to mention a reason why Carter is 6 years above the limit for Alpha Company, why Jun is a year over, and why Emile is 2 years older.

Either way, canon breaks that could have EASILY been avoided.

  • 10.07.2010 7:56 AM PDT

On hiding dead bodies:
Posted by: Psuedo
Posted by: teh Chaz
Inside another dead body. It's the last place they'll look
A corpse within a corpse.
CORPSEPTION.
Win.


Posted by: privet caboose

Posted by: JDYeash937 MkII

Caboose, did Bungie ever state a reason for Emile, Jun and Carter being so old? I personally really do not see the reason for them being stupidly old for the purposes of the SPARTAN programme.


Bungie has yet to mention a reason why Carter is 6 years above the limit for Alpha Company, why Jun is a year over, and why Emile is 2 years older.

Either way, canon breaks that could have EASILY been avoided.
The only reason I can think of is so that (at least in Carter's case) he would have been not only alive to have been on Harvest following First Contact, but been old enough to remember it.

As for Jun and Emile? 1 or 2 years isn't that much, and falls way more into line than 6 years does with the age restriction. I thought all 3 were 6 years 'too old'.

  • 10.07.2010 8:19 AM PDT

Is there a source for their present ranks?

Also something I just detected yesterday that I may have missed... Are SIII's army instead of Navy? o_0

  • 10.07.2010 8:31 AM PDT

Signatures are for squares.


Posted by: The Enforcer OS
Is there a source for their present ranks?

Also something I just detected yesterday that I may have missed... Are SIII's army instead of Navy? o_0


Spartan III's are technically ARMY, because Ackerson is an Army Colonel and he's in charge of the III program.

Also, there was a gameinformer issue that had all of the Nobel team ranks in it as well.

[Edited on 10.07.2010 1:59 PM PDT]

  • 10.07.2010 1:59 PM PDT

OMG a Pwny!


Posted by: privet caboose
I really don't buy the, "Carter spent 5+ years in cryo sleep even though he's only 11" excuse.


It's the best theory out there. He was born on Biko, Biko was glassed, he is frozen until a home is found for him, later Kurt and Ackerson find that his genetic markers match what they're looking for, instead of Carter going to a home, he goes to Onyx.

  • 10.07.2010 2:10 PM PDT
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Posted by: Hysterical Joker
It is very disappointing, given how enthralling and great the story is for The Fall of Reach and First Strike, not withstanding the obvious retcon issues. Even if they are re-making the novels to fix this, it will destroy a story that I very much preferred.
I cannot agree more.

  • 10.07.2010 6:47 PM PDT
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One day... I am gonna grow wings... A chemical reaction... Hysterical and useless... hystecial and let down and hanging around... crushed like a bug in the ground.


Posted by: SirPwn4g3

Posted by: privet caboose
I really don't buy the, "Carter spent 5+ years in cryo sleep even though he's only 11" excuse.


It's the best theory out there. He was born on Biko, Biko was glassed, he is frozen until a home is found for him, later Kurt and Ackerson find that his genetic markers match what they're looking for, instead of Carter going to a home, he goes to Onyx.


Clever,

Still, 5 years in Cyro is a long time for a small boy...

  • 10.07.2010 6:59 PM PDT

Not that it means anything: but the Carter from the ad campaign is like 18 or somethign when he gets augmented. So... I don't know.

  • 10.07.2010 7:29 PM PDT

Not that it means anything: but the Carter from the ad campaign is like 18 or somethign when he gets augmented. So... I don't know.

They induce early puberty for the Spartans a few years before they are 12-14. Thus, by the time they're at least 14 and with years of fitness regimen and strict diets, they look as if 18-21 Olympians by the time they start augmentation.

Anyways, the bull-blam!- about Carter being in cryo for 5 years is utterly stupid as it is a waste of resources that the UNSC needs. Not that it matters much, the Spartan III program actually does allow for older candidates as long as they don't enter puberty and have unwanted levels of certain hormones.

  • 10.07.2010 8:40 PM PDT

On hiding dead bodies:
Posted by: Psuedo
Posted by: teh Chaz
Inside another dead body. It's the last place they'll look
A corpse within a corpse.
CORPSEPTION.
Win.


Posted by: AngasBoy

Posted by: SirPwn4g3

Posted by: privet caboose
I really don't buy the, "Carter spent 5+ years in cryo sleep even though he's only 11" excuse.


It's the best theory out there. He was born on Biko, Biko was glassed, he is frozen until a home is found for him, later Kurt and Ackerson find that his genetic markers match what they're looking for, instead of Carter going to a home, he goes to Onyx.


Clever,

Still, 5 years in Cyro is a long time for a small boy...
I fail to really see why it should matter about his age and being cryo'd for 5 years.

Apart from merely the stress of survivng Biko and then being 'iced'.

  • 10.07.2010 11:04 PM PDT

Signatures are for squares.


Posted by: JDYeash937 MkII

Posted by: AngasBoy

Posted by: SirPwn4g3

Posted by: privet caboose
I really don't buy the, "Carter spent 5+ years in cryo sleep even though he's only 11" excuse.


It's the best theory out there. He was born on Biko, Biko was glassed, he is frozen until a home is found for him, later Kurt and Ackerson find that his genetic markers match what they're looking for, instead of Carter going to a home, he goes to Onyx.


Clever,

Still, 5 years in Cyro is a long time for a small boy...
I fail to really see why it should matter about his age and being cryo'd for 5 years.

Apart from merely the stress of survivng Biko and then being 'iced'.


Well, it was a requirement to be a younger candidate for the III's, because they need to be able to train for 5 years, and still not of hit puberty. Otherwise the augmentations wouldn't have worked properly and caused mutations/fail.

And I don't remember reading about a single case of someone being in cryo for FIVE YEARS, in a row...(Except maybe the SoF, but they didn't have any other choice.)

  • 10.08.2010 4:21 AM PDT

Why did the tomato get red?

Cuz it saw the salad...dressing.

The books aren`t canon.

  • 10.08.2010 4:29 AM PDT