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This topic has moved here: Subject: Unexplainable errors in the Halo canon. (Spoilers)
  • Subject: Unexplainable errors in the Halo canon. (Spoilers)
Subject: Unexplainable errors in the Halo canon. (Spoilers)

I'm still re-reading The Fall of Reach (I've been busy) and it makes no sense whatsoever how everyone can have the new shield system the same day that Master Chief field tests it.

I'm sorry, I lot of these things can be explained by changing dates and making most of the events in TFOR take place a few months earlier but the fact that Bungie didn't check the dates nor do this is quite sad really. Especially with all the work Eric did on the book and the fact that it was regarded as cannon.

Don't get me started on how no one had ever seen an Elite before either (as mentioned in the book before the field test) when Jorge clearly states that the Elite you saw in Winter Contingency was Zealot class, as indicated by their "armor configuration".

I still love the universe but it does sadden me that so many things have been broken and rewritten.

  • 11.22.2010 7:02 AM PDT

Brains beats brawn get used to it

Fear the Red Comet

Variety is the spice of life.
Long live games.
Death to all fanboys.


Posted by: WoollyMonster
I'm still re-reading The Fall of Reach (I've been busy) and it makes no sense whatsoever how everyone can have the new shield system the same day that Master Chief field tests it.


Simple. Recton. Several things have been rectonned ever since the original three novels. It's a bit of a disappointment that the reissues don't recton themselves, but regardless...The Fall of Reach has been rectonned little by little long before Halo Reach came out. It all started when the first Tor book was released.

Edit:

Posted by: X Dark Angel XZ
If you want to fix the canon, go ahead, show your take on it. Like I'm doing with my Machinima Series, Halo Legacy. However, to make sure I DON'T break the canon, I explore areas that have yet to be explored.

So, stop ranting, and take matters into your own hand.


The problem with this is that there no longer becomes a standard that can be agreed on, and now everyone and anyone can go make up whatever they want that can be accepted by little groups whilst others go on to make their own truths turning what's already a relatively small mess in the entirety of canon into a large splintered one.

[Edited on 11.22.2010 11:36 AM PST]

  • 11.22.2010 11:31 AM PDT


Posted by: dibbs089
Posted by: Alf stewert
considering ONI may have kept the covenant on reach quiet
Were they keeping the Covenant on Reach quiet before, during, or after all of the civilian evacuations from the major cities? I'm sure ONI just told the entire population of Reach that the Covenant wasn't invading and to ignore the Banshees (as they were obviously just weather balloons). I bet the entire population of Earth doesn't even know a war was being fought, much less the fact that Africa is gone because ONI is just that good.


Alf didn't say anything about them keeping the whole invasion a secret, don't be an idiot, all your sarcasm is going to do is piss people off.

The only thing hushed up and kept quiet was advance force, the Covenant presence was hushed up until the Long Night of Solace decloaked and revealed itself. And they probably didn't actually say "Get the hell out, the Covenant are here" until the main fleet arrived after the Solace was destroyed.

  • 11.22.2010 12:40 PM PDT

i'm not exactly sure how many times this has been mentioned, but anyway... there's a time- bending crystal UNDER REACH, it explains a difference in time between the events of halo CE and tGoO. it is entirely possible that this cristal is messing wit the times ON REACH, meaning that date discrepancies are null. the PoA, then, could have gone back to reach to get the other piece of cortana, and about the supercarrier cloaking biz, the thing's utterly massive, maybe it has the spires prebuilt onboard and active, cloaking the things approach, and it drops them to the surface to deploy its army. that area of reach is a desert anyway, so not many people would notice them landing there anyway, and i read somewhere before that reach has only 20 SMACS grouped in fives. so if the UNSC aren't expectin an attack, there would be huge gaps in the defenses, which under normal circumstances would be fixed by Visegrad Relay detecting them. the supercarrier is cloaced, and is big enough to fit all the corvettes seen in the early game into it, so maybe it just floats down, deploys 1 corvette to sword and sends spirits to visegrad, and when relay gets knocked out it can safely teleport down its troops. it says at the beginning of Tip of the Spear that nobles descovery was not an anomaly, so the carrier and all its troops are still cloaked. the heat sig and radar thing is explained by the mini- tower that jun discovers, creating a sensor darkzone. when the UNSC discover them, ONI covers it up, while the supercarried freaks, busts up Grafton and runs away in long night of solace, the corvette is running off, or returning, maybe from deploying at visegrad, because the spire's range is unknown, and is returning to the long night of solace to get new troops and report, probably trying to get an evac/ reinforcement message to the rest of the covenant, when savannah attacks it. as it returns from its mission, and gets hijacked, the long night of solace crew sees the corvette get hijacked, because, seriously, if you just looked out a window of the long night, you'd see what was going on, its not exactly far away.
anyway, the long night of solace asks for reinforcements before getting pwned by jorge, who can be accounted for by being a member of BLACK team, who lobs 6 off the corvette and drops to new alex where more of long night's corvettes are pwning reach. by this time the main covie fleet is en route, and the pillar is up in orbit getting refit. during the orbital battle, PoA goes back for cortana and the 2 spartan teams are deployed for circumferance's nav base and to protect the SMACs Generators, probably in a battle of firefight generator defence of EPIC preportions, lol, and when 6 gets to the pillar and destroys the cruiser, the cruiser just jumped in under the guns, as in tFoR multiple covie ships do this. then PoA escapes, being evil and leaving 6 behind, because there really was time during the cutscene for a pelican to pick him up, but bungie were being clever and avoiding such a rediculous plot hole by having keyes being evil and leaving 6 behind, looking out of his pelican window going HELLOMYNAMEKEYES lolololololololololololololololololololololol ololololololololollololololololololololololololololololololol ol!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1111! and leaving 6 to be slaughtered. end of plot fixing


on another note, have you noticed an absence of marathon logos, on keyes uniform, its a 7th column logo, it isn't on the pillar, i think and i don't remember seeing it on the halo... kinda strange, seeing as CE 2 and 3 were fulla them.

oh, and for the 1 person who STILL doesn't know, the Long Night of Solace is the name of the supercarrier, and the mission is named after the ship. just a cowinkidink that it just so happens to be a space mission, *scratches chin* oh and to the "universal elite" or whatever you call yourself who made this thread, put a little thought in before you declare the ploy a pile of grunt -blam-

  • 11.22.2010 1:37 PM PDT


Posted by: WoollyMonster
I'm still re-reading The Fall of Reach (I've been busy) and it makes no sense whatsoever how everyone can have the new shield system the same day that Master Chief field tests it.

I'm sorry, I lot of these things can be explained by changing dates and making most of the events in TFOR take place a few months earlier but the fact that Bungie didn't check the dates nor do this is quite sad really. Especially with all the work Eric did on the book and the fact that it was regarded as cannon.

Don't get me started on how no one had ever seen an Elite before either (as mentioned in the book before the field test) when Jorge clearly states that the Elite you saw in Winter Contingency was Zealot class, as indicated by their "armor configuration".

I still love the universe but it does sadden me that so many things have been broken and rewritten.
is that the old copy? new copy i believe is better, about the shields do you honestly think chiefs armour was made in a day? the suits with shields have been around for years, field tested noble got them early for one, nobles a secret tema of oni, and two it was a way for them to be more efficient and a way to test the armour , and to say why did chief do the course then? to see how it would fair against human weponary, although chiefs armour i believe was tweaked in a term for faster shields than noble and chiefs armour had AI support, the br was around in harvest, but took years to come out.

[Edited on 11.22.2010 4:16 PM PST]

  • 11.22.2010 4:13 PM PDT

Escalators don't break, they just become stairs.

I don't know if any one else has noticed this, but the Pillar Of Auatum along with most other UNSC ships(not counting frigates) can't support themselves in atmosphere so they were built in space and have never been in atmosphere. The only reason frigates can be in atmosphere like in the level Tip Of The Spear, is because they are so small compared to other ships so it doesn't make any sense having the PoA sitting on a hill. Also, everybody knows about Noble Team even though SIII weren't meant to be know about because they were sent on suicide missions so people didn't think that they were making wastable heros. Jorge wouldn't be pulled out of the regular SII to be with Noble Team. He is just to important. Besides these proplems, there are many other problems like Cortana with Dr. Halsley in her underground lab. One thing they got right though is in the New Alexandria cutscene, Kat askes why they put spartans on the defensive which they sortof did when John-117 sends Red Team down to the planet.

  • 11.22.2010 6:39 PM PDT


Posted by: xisfodad
I don't know if any one else has noticed this, but the Pillar Of Auatum along with most other UNSC ships(not counting frigates) can't support themselves in atmosphere so they were built in space and have never been in atmosphere. The only reason frigates can be in atmosphere like in the level Tip Of The Spear, is because they are so small compared to other ships so it doesn't make any sense having the PoA sitting on a hill. Also, everybody knows about Noble Team even though SIII weren't meant to be know about because they were sent on suicide missions so people didn't think that they were making wastable heros. Jorge wouldn't be pulled out of the regular SII to be with Noble Team. He is just to important. Besides these proplems, there are many other problems like Cortana with Dr. Halsley in her underground lab. One thing they got right though is in the New Alexandria cutscene, Kat askes why they put spartans on the defensive which they sortof did when John-117 sends Red Team down to the planet.
the marines thought of then as normal spartans only oni and halsey and scientist who worked with all spartan 2's would know which spartans are which everyone just thought these spartans were a group of spartan 2's, and POA in athsmosphere well it was reffited before it was on reach chances are it was replated to be able to go into in athsmosphere casue te jump jets were placed so it could lift off, perhaps it had help by other frigates to get their but the frigates whent off to fight covenant?

  • 11.22.2010 6:58 PM PDT

Escalators don't break, they just become stairs.

I guess it does make sense with the marines(which aparently are army troops not marines apparently. Found this out recently)thinking that you are a regular spartan II because of the armor and if they were careful(hehe)they probably could refit the PoA on Reach's surface. Even though the UNSC didn't have anything like the rockets to get a ship in the air, I guess you do have to remember that it was fitted out with new technology like the reactor and MAC gun. I just wish they would make a new encyclapedia for halo or make a book for this part of the Fall Of Reach and have different perspectives like insted of Noble 6, you could also have Captain Keyes' point of view and learn more about the Pillar Of Auatum and the Fall Of Reach as a whole. Also, going back to the PoA, they could have gotten it down to the surface by attaching frigates to hard points like with the Gettysburg and the Acendent Justice and other UNSC ships for slipspace jumps and for more power like in First Strike. They could have put them on for more thruster power on the PoA.

[Edited on 11.22.2010 7:18 PM PST]

  • 11.22.2010 7:12 PM PDT

Escalators don't break, they just become stairs.

I just thought of this but and this is a longshot, but what if they attempted a shortrange/in atmosphere slipspace jump like Admiral Cole at his last battle and maybe that's why he sent hsi therory to Reach to have the AIs work it out and use the Pillar Of Auatum as an expirerment. It maybe would work because even though Cole's ship Everest and the PoA are different modeles, they are both cruiser class with similar slipspace drives. The ship may also be in the middle of nowhere because they didn't want to risk any stuctures near it when it jumps.Long long shot but I think its a good therory about how the PoA got down on Reach.

  • 11.22.2010 7:25 PM PDT


Posted by: xisfodad
I guess it does make sense with the marines(which aparently are army troops not marines apparently. Found this out recently)thinking that you are a regular spartan II because of the armor and if they were careful(hehe)they probably could refit the PoA on Reach's surface. Even though the UNSC didn't have anything like the rockets to get a ship in the air, I guess you do have to remember that it was fitted out with new technology like the reactor and MAC gun. I just wish they would make a new encyclapedia for halo or make a book for this part of the Fall Of Reach and have different perspectives like insted of Noble 6, you could also have Captain Keyes' point of view and learn more about the Pillar Of Auatum and the Fall Of Reach as a whole. Also, going back to the PoA, they could have gotten it down to the surface by attaching frigates to hard points like with the Gettysburg and the Acendent Justice and other UNSC ships for slipspace jumps and for more power like in First Strike. They could have put them on for more thruster power on the PoA.
http://www.bungie.net/Forums/posts.aspx?postID=53256461 this is why i have this thread to hopefully get alot of people to reply with their opinions so maby bungie or 343 can see and do something about it.

  • 11.22.2010 7:25 PM PDT


Posted by: Ageless Durandal
One of the Halo: Evolutions stories state that in every company of S-III, they pull some of them out right before primary deployment to be a part of "Headhunter" teams.
It's possible Kurt pulled more of them out for other things before Pegasi.

Source on site: Here. (Although, they say that they rarely get to pull S-III's right after training, in the book they say they do it pretty often. Probably due to Ackerson wanting more "special" Spartans on his own.)

Also, you do realize that the books are "optional" canon and are over-ridden by the game canon, right?

that dosnt fix the age of them at all, and no all the books are OFFICIAL canon!

  • 11.24.2010 8:07 PM PDT

pretty much bungie said reach was their 'swansong' when really it just pissed ALOT of people off. they through canon out the window. they -blam!- up!! i give them a FAILTACULAR!!!

and books are canon

  • 11.24.2010 8:47 PM PDT

Posted by: monkDAN
that dosnt fix the age of them at all, and no all the books are OFFICIAL canon!
Books may be "Official canon" but the games do override the books. There was a quote somewhere that expressed like Star Wars movies > expanded universe books canon-wise and the same goes for Halo games.

Anyways the best approach when it comes to mainstream canon on giant brands is too keep an open mind especially with things popular enough to keep churning out productions. With so many people with access things are going to get mixed up and around and rehashed.

Bungie at least built themselves a great back door to monkey with canon. With the shroud surrounding ONI they can always come back with the "ONI covered it up" explanation.

  • 11.24.2010 11:02 PM PDT
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My best thread evar!

How exactly do they install GIANT THRUSTERS on the Pillar of Autumn in the "30 minute gap" that the PoA can land on Reach?

  • 11.24.2010 11:31 PM PDT

GROSSMAN: Do you think of the Culture as a utopia? Would you live in it, if you could?

BANKS: Good grief yes, to both! What's not to like? ...Well, unless you're actually a fascist or a power junkie or sincerely believe that money rather than happiness is what really matters in life. And even people with those bizarre beliefs are catered for in the Culture, albeit in extreme-immersion VR environments.

KOTOR

Posted by: C SEC Agent
How exactly do they install GIANT THRUSTERS on the Pillar of Autumn in the "30 minute gap" that the PoA can land on Reach?


Giant Magnets.

  • 11.24.2010 11:56 PM PDT

Posted by: WoollyMonster
Don't get me started on how no one had ever seen an Elite before either (as mentioned in the book before the field test) when Jorge clearly states that the Elite you saw in Winter Contingency was Zealot class, as indicated by their "armor configuration".


That was changed ages ago. That, in my opinion, was a stupid thing to put into the book, because it implies that Humanity was being destroyed on the ground by only Grunts and Jackals, which is pathetic.

  • 11.25.2010 12:01 AM PDT

Brains beats brawn get used to it

Fear the Red Comet

Variety is the spice of life.
Long live games.
Death to all fanboys.


Posted by: C SEC Agent
How exactly do they install GIANT THRUSTERS on the Pillar of Autumn in the "30 minute gap" that the PoA can land on Reach?


Because there is a very real possibility that the Autumn was on Reach planetside being refitted before the attack on Reach even begun.

  • 11.25.2010 8:42 AM PDT

On hiding dead bodies:
Posted by: Psuedo
Posted by: teh Chaz
Inside another dead body. It's the last place they'll look
A corpse within a corpse.
CORPSEPTION.
Win.

Posted by: StealthSlasher2

Posted by: C SEC Agent
How exactly do they install GIANT THRUSTERS on the Pillar of Autumn in the "30 minute gap" that the PoA can land on Reach?


Because there is a very real possibility that the Autumn was on Reach planetside being refitted before the attack on Reach even begun.
Real yes, likely no.

It doesn't make sense considering the refit could have (and originally was) done in space. It would have been less work and effort to re-orbit PoA, then do the refit instead of the hideously arduous task of refitting her on the ground, with gravity opposing your efforts.

  • 11.25.2010 1:50 PM PDT


Posted by: JDYeash937 MkII
Posted by: StealthSlasher2

Posted by: C SEC Agent
How exactly do they install GIANT THRUSTERS on the Pillar of Autumn in the "30 minute gap" that the PoA can land on Reach?


Because there is a very real possibility that the Autumn was on Reach planetside being refitted before the attack on Reach even begun.
Real yes, likely no.

It doesn't make sense considering the refit could have (and originally was) done in space. It would have been less work and effort to re-orbit PoA, then do the refit instead of the hideously arduous task of refitting her on the ground, with gravity opposing your efforts.
or the thrusters were put on as the POA was refitted in space?

  • 11.25.2010 3:34 PM PDT

the spartan 3's at training were more than 4,5,6 they were 8 and up because they were orphaned evacuees that were asked to volunteer rather than being kidnapped because this operation wasnt run by halsey. therefore these spartans werent canidates at all only volunteers. also not all of alpha company was wiped out on the asteroid because two survived by jumping off a cliff. you should read a little more...

  • 11.25.2010 4:37 PM PDT

Signatures are for squares.

Posted by: k1ng 0f wal3s
the spartan 3's at training were more than 4,5,6 they were 8 and up because they were orphaned evacuees that were asked to volunteer rather than being kidnapped because this operation wasnt run by halsey. therefore these spartans werent canidates at all only volunteers. also not all of alpha company was wiped out on the asteroid because two survived by jumping off a cliff. you should read a little more...


Almost everything in this post is wrong.

1. Ghosts of Oynx, page 69(I believe), Kurt states every member of alpha company was 4, 5, or 6 years old. Yes, some of Alpha was orphaned evacuees, but I'm pretty sure it still wasn't voluntary.

2. That was Beta company.

3. You should reread the books, your information is wrong.

  • 11.25.2010 4:45 PM PDT

Brains beats brawn get used to it

Fear the Red Comet

Variety is the spice of life.
Long live games.
Death to all fanboys.


Posted by: Alf stewert

Posted by: JDYeash937 MkII
Posted by: StealthSlasher2

Posted by: C SEC Agent
How exactly do they install GIANT THRUSTERS on the Pillar of Autumn in the "30 minute gap" that the PoA can land on Reach?


Because there is a very real possibility that the Autumn was on Reach planetside being refitted before the attack on Reach even begun.
Real yes, likely no.

It doesn't make sense considering the refit could have (and originally was) done in space. It would have been less work and effort to re-orbit PoA, then do the refit instead of the hideously arduous task of refitting her on the ground, with gravity opposing your efforts.
or the thrusters were put on as the POA was refitted in space?



Posted by: Alf stewert

Posted by: JDYeash937 MkII
Posted by: StealthSlasher2

Posted by: C SEC Agent
How exactly do they install GIANT THRUSTERS on the Pillar of Autumn in the "30 minute gap" that the PoA can land on Reach?


Because there is a very real possibility that the Autumn was on Reach planetside being refitted before the attack on Reach even begun.
Real yes, likely no.

It doesn't make sense considering the refit could have (and originally was) done in space. It would have been less work and effort to re-orbit PoA, then do the refit instead of the hideously arduous task of refitting her on the ground, with gravity opposing your efforts.
or the thrusters were put on as the POA was refitted in space?


If the Autumn was retrofitted in space there would be no need for it to get thrusters and land. They've could've deployed a Pelican from a space dock as JD has pointed out in the past.

It's my personal theory based off Keyes' message to Vice Admiral Kapano that the Autumn was undergoing refit on the planet's surface in that dry dock to keep things secret from everyone on Reach and keep suspicions to a minimum under the assumption the Covenant had never attacked during their refit
operation. Though at the same time whether space dock or ground dock, the theory simultaneously places the Autumn as unable to participate in the space battle at all.

So now I'm going to do a little break down of that short entry.

Paragraph 1:

THE PILLAR OF AUTUMN'S REFIT IS 98 PERCENT COMPLETE, AND IF WE CAN MAINTAIN THE CURRENT PACE WE SHOULD MEET ALL RED FLAG SPECS IN SEVENTY-TWO HOURS.

Alright so from that first paragraph in the message it is established that the Pillar of Autumn is still undergoing refit at this time and will be ready in three days should everything run at the rate it's currently going.

Paragraph 2 deals with Keyes' concern with the reactor, and has no relevance to the theory I'm proposing so I'm not putting that here.

Paragraph 3:

YOU TOLD ME THAT THIS MISSION IS BIG, AND YOU AND I HAVE BEEN THROUGH ENOUGH TOGETHER THAT I BELIEVE YOU. WHILE I EXPECT I'LL BE THE LAST PERSON TO KNOW WHERE WE'RE SAILING, I'VE BEEN AROUND LONG ENOUGH TO BE ABLE TO TELL THAT WE'RE GOING ALONE. I'VE GOT A WHO'S WHO OF ENGINEERS, SCIENTISTS, AND ONI "MONITORS" CRAWLING ALL OVER MY SHIP RIGHT NOW, AND IF THEY'RE ALL HERE THAT MEANS EVERY SHIP IN THE DOCK IS GOING WITHOUT. PLUS WE'VE ALREADY TAKEN ON ENOUGH -------- TO ACCOUNT FOR EVERY GRAM LEFT AT REACH IF I'VE BEEN READING THE FLEET REPORTS CORRECTLY THE LAST FEW MONTHS, SO NO OTHER SHIP COULD KEEP UP WITH US IF WE TRIED.

Note: The "------" is a substitution for a word that is blacked out in the book.

Alright so now it seems that while Keyes is informed of the specs the PoA has for Operation:Red Flag, he is completely clueless as to the actual specifics of what Red Flag really is. This is already significant as it's a clear indication in book form outside of Halsey's journal that Keyes was in command of the Autumn before Operation Red Flag's briefing. Keep in mind that in Halsey's journal, the full Red Flag briefing occurs on the 27th of August. Three days before the 30th. It is mentioned in the journal that Halsey "prematurely" discloses little bits of Red Flag to Keyes on the 12th of August though.

In regards to The Fall of Reach, we know Keyes inspects the Autumn for the first time with Hikowa in space, and that she knew more about the Autumn's specs than he did. Based off this message this event simply no longer exists. Keyes knew the specs of the Autumn before it was ready to go and before he had the briefing as to what the Autumn was specifically designed to do. Keyes had the Autumn even before a single Spartan ever stepped onto it (more on that in the next paragraph).

Now the latter half of paragraph 3 struck me as a bit odd. Given the context of the sentence, it seems to me that the blacked out word is some type of fuel as the following sentences indicate that all the ships lacking whatever would be unable to keep pace with the Autumn where ever she went.

That said, this makes me think that if Keyes finds this peculiar, no doubt anyone else with a brain would as well. Which is why I think, for the purpose of a ground refit, it would be easier to hide the transport of massive shipments of a particular item to a remote ground facility. In space, there's essentially infinite LoS. On the ground, there's mountainous terrain blocking fields of view. Not to mention that we should all keep in mind that the Autumn was placed in a ship breaking facility, not an actual repair yard. There would likely be repercussions as well morale wise if average soldiers or civilians laid eyes on the Autumn during its refit and question its existence. There were already the dock workers in a separate side story that were concerned due to the overflow of military equipment on Reach, but in any case moving onto the next paragraph.

Paragraph 4:

ALL THIS, AND THE MODIFICATIONS TO STOW AN ARMY'S WORTH OF HEAVY WEAPONS WITHOUT AN ROOM FOR AN ARMY MAKE IT PRETTY CLEAR THAT I'M ABOUT TO GET SOME VISITORS...AND I KNOW WHAT KIND OF MISSIONS THEY GO ON. MY MEN KNOW IT, TOO.

This paragraph serves to indicate that there are currently no Spartan's aboard the Autumn, however Keyes already suspects that the Autumn will be carrying them given the vast amount of irdinance. This information also lessens the possibility of Blue Team ever being deployed in space with the Autumn coming down on Reach after the Circumference Op as some people theorize is still possible given the events of Halo:Reach.

Paragraph 6:

THE DAMNED ONI ORDERS NOT TO DISCUSS WHAT'S GOING ON OUT THERE ARE A SERIOUS INTERFERENCE WITH MY COMMAND. I GET BRIEFINGS AND THE REAL NUMBERS AND I UNDERSTAND THAT THERE'S NOT MUCH WE COULD DO IF WE LAUNCHED THE AUTUMN DIRECTLY INTO THE HEART OF IT, BUT I CAN'T EXPLAIN ANY OF THAT TO MY MEN BECAUSE I CAN'T OFFICIALLY ACKNOWLEDGE THAT ANY OF IT IS EVEN TAKING PLACE.

Now this paragraph begins to lend credence to my theory that the Autumn never participated in the battle of Reach, and that it was still in that dock undergoing its refit as Reach was under attack. Now of course people could say that Keyes was referring to the details of Red Flag, but again remember he hasn't had the briefing yet on Red Flag and still does not know all the details. Furthermore the following paragraphs eliminates that possibility.

Paragraph 7:

BUT YOU KNOW AS WELL AS I DO THAT THESE BLACKOUT ORDERS AREN'T WORTH A DAMN. CREW TALKS. ALWAYS HAVE, ALWAYS WILL. IF IT'S NOT THE TECHS ON THE NAVCOM OPS, IT'S MY PLATEWELDERS OUT VERIFYING THE HULL WITH A GREAT BIG VIEW OF THE SHOW BELOW, AND THERE'S NO WAY THAT STAYS QUIET, NOT WITH AS MANY HUSBANDS, WIVES AND KIDS WE HAVE DOWN ON THE SURFACE. AND EVERYDAY THOSE DOUBTS GROW.....

Paragraph 8:

THEY NEED TO KNOW THAT REACH WON'T BE HERE WHEN WE GET BACK. THERE'S NOTHING WE CAN DO ABOUT IT BUT MAKE THIS LOSS MEAN SOMETHING BY COMPLETING OUR MISSION TO THE BEST OF OUR ABILITIES. AND I HAVE TO MAKE THEM UNDERSTAND THAT THIS MEANS STANDING DOWN ON BOARD THE AUTUMN WHILE EVERYTHING GOES TO HELL AROUND THEM.

So at this point Keyes pretty much paints the picture that Reach is already under siege, and the battle has gotten to the point that it's clear the UNSC are losing now. Not only that, but the way he describes the scene is indicative that wherever the Autumn may be (space or on the the ground), it's in a location isolated from the battle as no one is attacking them. However, from wherever they are, the crew working on the hull can clearly see the battle raging on.

Now paragraph 7 lends great credibility to the space dock due to the wording that the battle is "below" and that family members are "down" on the surface, however, the likely hood that the Autumn can remain in space undetected by the Covenant fleet is rather incredulous. Although it's pushing it, for the ground dock argument it could be said that the wording was relative to the ships position to the rest of the planet's surface, and that the ship itself was not part of the ground. It could also be physically seen in the level "The Package", that the Autumn is perched up in a way that you can clearly see battles raging below in relative safety. Still either way (ground or space), it's important to note that in the last sentence of paragraph 8, Keyes intends to not participate in the battle because he wants to focus on getting the Autumn ready for Red Flag....

In any case that's my (more detailed than usual) two cents on why I think the Autumn was more likely than not (within this rectonned storyline) was being refitted on the surface and how it did not participate in the battle of Reach the entire time.

  • 11.25.2010 8:50 PM PDT

Posted by: Rolling Flame
That was changed ages ago. That, in my opinion, was a stupid thing to put into the book, because it implies that Humanity was being destroyed on the ground by only Grunts and Jackals, which is pathetic.


I think I have the really old edition then, can someone point me to the latest edition please?

  • 11.29.2010 4:29 AM PDT

Brains beats brawn get used to it

Fear the Red Comet

Variety is the spice of life.
Long live games.
Death to all fanboys.


Posted by: WoollyMonster
Posted by: Rolling Flame
That was changed ages ago. That, in my opinion, was a stupid thing to put into the book, because it implies that Humanity was being destroyed on the ground by only Grunts and Jackals, which is pathetic.


I think I have the really old edition then, can someone point me to the latest edition please?


The different editions of a single book haven't changed anything. Newer different novels simply rectonned encounters with the alien species. In The Fall of Reach it's stated that only Grunts and Jackals have been encountered up until Reach when Elites finally make an appearance en masse(with Hunters being encountered for the first time ever only a few weeks before). However, ever since Ghost of Onyx it (and all media after that) was changed so that Elites and what not have been known of almost from the start.

[Edited on 11.29.2010 10:05 PM PST]

  • 11.29.2010 10:04 PM PDT

In memory of those fallen in the defense of Earth and her colonies.

March 3, 2553

Sigh, i am disappointed that Bungie didn't go with cannon, to me it seems like they didn't care about Reach at all. They made just because they had to and didn't care about what happened to the game. (Which is why we haven't seen a patch yet for the -blam!- multiplayer).

:(

  • 11.29.2010 11:12 PM PDT