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This topic has moved here: Subject: Unexplainable errors in the Halo canon. (Spoilers)
  • Subject: Unexplainable errors in the Halo canon. (Spoilers)
Subject: Unexplainable errors in the Halo canon. (Spoilers)


Posted by: kippa
Posted by: JDYeash937 MkII

Posted by: Hysterical Joker

Posted by: Spartan1065
Are you going to add to the list Halsey's interaction with Noble Team? The fact that when she went digging through Ackerson's files under the Castle base was the first time she had an inkling they existed, but in the game she talks to them like she has known all along?

No she doesn't. She knows Jorge, who is a S-II. If you go back to the cutscene, she isn't very nice to the rest of Noble.
She's not exactly happy to see Jorge either. She seems... almost disappointed in Jorge. Cuts him off when he wants to speak, and is upset at the additions he's made to 'her' armour, for some reason. Kept him alive, for a while.


I thought it was dumb that she asked "what have you done to my armor?" considering that it was her (read: Journal) that wanted to have constant upgrades to MJOLNIR, but was told for financial reasons that she had to do it in a "Mark" series. And if it wasn't her designing those pieces....?

Also a bit weird that she seems to 'not like' Noble team at all. Her reaction upon meeting Gamma company at Onyx later on is almost the polar opposite; maturnal and affectionate (although she can't show it).

The armor bit was a bit weird. Maybe her way of dry wit and humor? Would have to watch it again.

I completely understand her not liking Noble Team. At the time, she was still fuming that Ackerson had taken her research and using it without her being notified or involved. She was suspicious if Noble Team was the product of this(MJOLNIR armor being a give away) and understandably pissed, but probably misdirected that onto Noble.

Also, after seeing all those Spartans die on Reach, she was probably happy that she could find solace in some of her "new children", in a sense.

[Edited on 09.18.2010 12:37 AM PDT]

  • 09.18.2010 12:37 AM PDT

On hiding dead bodies:
Posted by: Psuedo
Posted by: teh Chaz
Inside another dead body. It's the last place they'll look
A corpse within a corpse.
CORPSEPTION.
Win.


Posted by: Rolling Flame
I don't see what is wrong with the Autumn being planetside. Just because it is docked doesn't mean that it was there the whole battle, and when it buggers off we don't see it entering slipspace.
It had to go through a very long warm-up process. If it docked planetside (onto a planet in the process of being overrun and glassed, I might add) to collect nothing more than an AI chip, they would have left engines running, to leave at a moments notice.

It had been there a very long time, and they were starting it up for the first time.

Think of it like pulling up outside a store and your friend going inside to buy whatever. Instead of leaving the engine running, you've turned off the engine and put the keys in your pocket. What for?

In case you don't remember, PoA came stupidly close to being glassed by a CCS Battlecruiser. If they had just 'pulled up' to pick up Cortana, then they would not have shut down the engines, leaving them open to just such a possibility.

  • 09.18.2010 1:35 AM PDT


Posted by: JDYeash937 MkII

Posted by: Rolling Flame
I don't see what is wrong with the Autumn being planetside. Just because it is docked doesn't mean that it was there the whole battle, and when it buggers off we don't see it entering slipspace.
It had to go through a very long warm-up process. If it docked planetside (onto a planet in the process of being overrun and glassed, I might add) to collect nothing more than an AI chip, they would have left engines running, to leave at a moments notice.

It had been there a very long time, and they were starting it up for the first time.

Think of it like pulling up outside a store and your friend going inside to buy whatever. Instead of leaving the engine running, you've turned off the engine and put the keys in your pocket. What for?

In case you don't remember, PoA came stupidly close to being glassed by a CCS Battlecruiser. If they had just 'pulled up' to pick up Cortana, then they would not have shut down the engines, leaving them open to just such a possibility.

The PoA had to undergo repair and construction in order to put that extra engine(Or whatever) inside it, which made the PoA so fast. This explains why it was docked, it was being retrofitted for the Spartan's mission to capture a prophet.

  • 09.18.2010 1:52 AM PDT

On hiding dead bodies:
Posted by: Psuedo
Posted by: teh Chaz
Inside another dead body. It's the last place they'll look
A corpse within a corpse.
CORPSEPTION.
Win.

I mentioned this earlier - old UNSC ship designs are not designed to be in atmosphere. Nearly all UNSC ship-building facilities are in orbit for this purpose. It received all its upgrades in an orbital space-dock according to TFoR. It's the most logical place, because 'heavy lifting' simply doesn't exist in 0/extreme-low G. Shifting that MAC canon, reactor, armour plate, 12,000 Archer missile tubes etc on Reach's surface would have been nigh on impossible, and taken months instead of the >5 days it took in the orbital shipyard.

It is only very modern frigates and colony ships that are capable of in-atmosphere 'flight'. Even older frigate-type ships are not designed for atmosphere - notable example being Midsummer Night due to its aerobraking manoeuvre.

[Edited on 09.18.2010 2:33 AM PDT]

  • 09.18.2010 2:29 AM PDT


Posted by: JDYeash937 MkII
I mentioned this earlier - old UNSC ship designs are not designed to be in atmosphere. Nearly all UNSC ship-building facilities are in orbit for this purpose. It received all its upgrades in an orbital space-dock according to TFoR. It's the most logical place, because 'heavy lifting' simply doesn't exist in 0/extreme-low G. Shifting that MAC canon, reactor, armour plate, 1200 Archer missile tubes etc on Reach's surface would have been nigh on impossible, and taken months instead of the >5 days it took in the orbital shipyard.

It is only very modern frigates and colony ships that are capable of in-atmosphere 'flight'. Even older frigate-type ships are not designed for atmosphere - notable example being Midsummer Night due to its aerobraking manoeuvre.

This is true as well. I also have trouble believing that the Autumn could even exert enough force to get itself off the ground, let alone leave orbit.

  • 09.18.2010 2:32 AM PDT

Freedom has two parts: potential and resolution; as metaphors have two parts : form and interpretation; of course, the two are intertwined. Metaphor lines the road to freedom, as symbols and words are the bricks and mortar of meaning. Freedom being the briocoleus, the mason.
***END MESSAGE***
***JUMP ACTIVATION INITIATION START***
***TRANSPORT WHEN READY***

I guess this is what happens when an IP is too fleshed out. You still have to keep in mind that they are still just books, books written after the fact, they might be good books, but the games always come first. Halo 1 even mentioned Reach, so we can't really say that they are going out on a limb to break canon, or define it.

  • 09.18.2010 2:46 AM PDT


Posted by: furiocity
I guess this is what happens when an IP is too fleshed out. You still have to keep in mind that they are still just books, books written after the fact, they might be good books, but the games always come first. Halo 1 even mentioned Reach, so we can't really say that they are going out on a limb to break canon, or define it.

Well, the books came before Halo: Reach. They already had that written for them, and decided to toss that out. They would be better off saying nothing in TFoR is canon instead of trying to half-assedly mend the inconsistencies. Or they could've just worked within TFoR, made hardcore fans happy, and introduced less diehard fans to a good story they were unaware of.

  • 09.18.2010 2:58 AM PDT

We believe that the universe is unbounded: this is not the same as infinite: the 2-D surface of a sphere, wrapped around a 3rd dimension, has a finite size, but has no end. If you start off in a given direction on the surface of a sphere, you could return to your start point without having to turn around -- you simply go all the way around. But wouldn't that mean the universe has an escape velocity like the earth?

Posted by: privet caboose

Error: Lack of Orbital MAC's.

Proof: Reach had a number of Orbital MAC's that were used in the battle of Reach. They were present on August 30th, so they should have been present during the mission "Long Night of Solace" in Halo: Reach. Had they been present, they Jorge wouldn't have died. Where were they?

Source: Fall of Reach, First Strike, Halo: Reach



If you understand the Orbital Defense Platforms, you know that they do not carry sufficient power supplies to fire the Super MAC, which is why their primary power is received from ground based ODGs, or Orbital Defense Generators. Same rule applies to Earth too.

Prior to TFoR, I assumed there were at least 7 ODGs, powering 20 Orbital Defense Platforms. However, ODGs were very vulnerable. When the Covenant made a ground assault, it was to disrupt these. This would have rendered the ODPs in space ineffective and cut off from the power necessary to attack the Covenant Corvette and the Fleet itself.

Canon = not broken in this aspect, because the ODPs would have been unable to fire.

~B2

  • 09.18.2010 4:10 AM PDT


Posted by: Bungie2
Posted by: privet caboose

Error: Lack of Orbital MAC's.

Proof: Reach had a number of Orbital MAC's that were used in the battle of Reach. They were present on August 30th, so they should have been present during the mission "Long Night of Solace" in Halo: Reach. Had they been present, they Jorge wouldn't have died. Where were they?

Source: Fall of Reach, First Strike, Halo: Reach



If you understand the Orbital Defense Platforms, you know that they do not carry sufficient power supplies to fire the Super MAC, which is why their primary power is received from ground based ODGs, or Orbital Defense Generators. Same rule applies to Earth too.

Prior to TFoR, I assumed there were at least 7 ODGs, powering 20 Orbital Defense Platforms. However, ODGs were very vulnerable. When the Covenant made a ground assault, it was to disrupt these. This would have rendered the ODPs in space ineffective and cut off from the power necessary to attack the Covenant Corvette and the Fleet itself.

Canon = not broken in this aspect, because the ODPs would have been unable to fire.

~B2

According to the book canon, was the 30th by the time the canons fell?

Also, it doesn't explain the complete lack of orbital platforms in the expanse of space you are able to view during gameplay.

  • 09.18.2010 4:13 AM PDT

Error: Reach was invaded on July 24th.

answer: that was a small advance force, and mostly on one part of the planet. due to the broken relay, the army hiding canopies, the fact they were mostly just in viery and the fact a planet is a huge place, not all of the UNSC forces on reach were aware of them

error: Alpha Company was wiped out completely during Operation: PROMETHEUS in 2537. Carter, Emile, and Jun should not be alive

answer: unless they were not on prometheus. they may have been headhunters, or they may simply have been pulled out for noble team beforehand by kurt, like noble 6. they might have been declared MIA in a previous mission

error: ONI's actions as well as the Cole Protocol.

answer: same as the invasion date

Error: Carter, Emile, and Jun's age

answer: the children in GoO were 5/6 BIOLOGICAL years. any long periods of time spent in cryo would mean their actual age would be more than their biological one. i expect that fleeing from their devastated homeworlds meant some time in cryo

Error: Lack of Orbital MAC's

answer: good point. i expect that they were below the orbital defence grid in that mission (why would anchor nine be level with their outer defences?) and couldnt contact ost of the fleet (for the reasons i had given. again, a planet is a large place)

Error: Pillar of Autumn on Reach.

answer: that mission was august 29th, a day before the PoA left for halo. although i dont think they knew the covenant were on reach when they got off planet in reach.



yes there are some inconsistancies, but thos are mostly dates. and those dates are only inconsistant with a book that said they had only seen grunts and jackals up to like a week before reach

  • 09.18.2010 4:19 AM PDT

I like that you describe it as a small advance force, but later mention the army hiding canopies. Is a Covenant Supercruiser part of a small advance force? Hardly seems covert.

Even the fact the Covenant were able to get that thing to Reach undetected is silly, not to mention deploy the materials required to construct cloaking devices without being discovered prior to them activating.

  • 09.18.2010 4:22 AM PDT

We believe that the universe is unbounded: this is not the same as infinite: the 2-D surface of a sphere, wrapped around a 3rd dimension, has a finite size, but has no end. If you start off in a given direction on the surface of a sphere, you could return to your start point without having to turn around -- you simply go all the way around. But wouldn't that mean the universe has an escape velocity like the earth?


Posted by: Hysterical Joker

Posted by: Bungie2
Posted by: privet caboose

Error: Lack of Orbital MAC's.

Proof: Reach had a number of Orbital MAC's that were used in the battle of Reach. They were present on August 30th, so they should have been present during the mission "Long Night of Solace" in Halo: Reach. Had they been present, they Jorge wouldn't have died. Where were they?

Source: Fall of Reach, First Strike, Halo: Reach



If you understand the Orbital Defense Platforms, you know that they do not carry sufficient power supplies to fire the Super MAC, which is why their primary power is received from ground based ODGs, or Orbital Defense Generators. Same rule applies to Earth too.

Prior to TFoR, I assumed there were at least 7 ODGs, powering 20 Orbital Defense Platforms. However, ODGs were very vulnerable. When the Covenant made a ground assault, it was to disrupt these. This would have rendered the ODPs in space ineffective and cut off from the power necessary to attack the Covenant Corvette and the Fleet itself.

Canon = not broken in this aspect, because the ODPs would have been unable to fire.

~B2

According to the book canon, was the 30th by the time the canons fell?

Also, it doesn't explain the complete lack of orbital platforms in the expanse of space you are able to view during gameplay.


"The main Covenant force moved in on the orbital defenses. The initial salvo of plasma torpedoes was mostly absorbed by three sacrificial refit and repair stations, allowing the defenders to return fire. The Orbital Defense Platforms and a nuclear minefield combined to take down a full third of the Covenant fleet, destroying about a hundred Covenant ships with the first salvo. The vaporized Titanium-A of the refit stations also served to block incoming plasma torpedoes. However, the next Covenant salvo significantly damaged the UNSC fleet, as the Covenant maneuvered for clear shots around the Titanium dust cloud and moved in for the kill. They destroyed a quarter of the Super MAC platforms" ~Quoted from Halopedia, confirmed using book references in TFoR.

Using that statement, it can be clearly assumed that the ODPs would have had to be stretched in places beyond belief. Note they were also in clusters of around 2 to 5, depending on importancy of the site below, which could mean that section had lost its clusters. It may also be likely that the Super MACs were diverted to other areas via a plan of brilliance by the Covenant to send in a Corvette.

Knowing this, Noble team would have had to been implemented for the mission to take place due to the lack of Super MACs to fulfill the job. Remember that on July the 26th, Super MACs were used to destroy a Covenant corvette. It is plausible that there were battles we aren't thinking about that diverted all attention, and forced the dependency onto Noble Team.

~B2

P.S. Correct, it was August 30th, also, I could be able to sufficiently explain the PoAs presence on Reach.

  • 09.18.2010 4:27 AM PDT
  •  | 
  • Exalted Heroic Member

you're naut cookin'

I'm not 100% on the notion that it was a SMAC that took out the Corvette above Sword Base. I say this because I wonder if they're even capable of turning and facing groundside. It could just have been a Frigate.

  • 09.18.2010 4:36 AM PDT

We believe that the universe is unbounded: this is not the same as infinite: the 2-D surface of a sphere, wrapped around a 3rd dimension, has a finite size, but has no end. If you start off in a given direction on the surface of a sphere, you could return to your start point without having to turn around -- you simply go all the way around. But wouldn't that mean the universe has an escape velocity like the earth?

The Pillar of Autumn Canon Break Solution. (Time Estimates)

5:34 am A Cruiser attempts to destroy the Halcyon class Pillar of Autumn. The PoA flys off however, saved by a whim.

5:45 am The start of the mass Covenant assault on Reach. PoA is now in geo-synchronous orbit and Captain Keyes notes a new Covenant class of ship which he dubs the "Supercarrier". Equilibrium in destruction is achieved as an even fight spurs over Reach, the first salvos destroying (Estimate) about one-third or so of the Covenant fleet that still exists at the later point of the Battle. The "Supercarrier" does intensive Damage to the UNSC, and fatally impacts the Stalemate.

5:58-9 am The AI Doppler fails to initiate "Cole Protocol" on the UNSC Circumference, currently stopped at Reach Station GAMMA (See where im going?). the Circumference attempts to Contact FLEETCOM, however the Covenant intercept the signal. The NAV Database on the Circumference was now vulnerable to seizure by the enemy.

6:16 am While in orbit, the Pillar of Autumn lends a hand, deploying John, Linda, and James (Blue Team) to help destroy the Circumference. Last few Spartans become Red Team and fortify the ODGs on the ground. James is listed MIA soon after, however the lives of Sgt Johnson and 3 other Marines (343 Guilty Spark cutscene escorts, Jenkins?)are saved in the process.

6:31 am Red Team is obliterated due to a hard landing with 4 dead, and about 6 injured badly. Explains Spartan body at "Lone Wolf" level.

6:37 am Blue Team returns with a survived John, his saved marines, Sgt Johnson and a dead Linda, who is cryo preserved until further medical attention can be wrought to save her.

6:47 am Failed attempt of PoA escaping due to unknown circumstances, perhaps the restoration of Cortana to the PoA(I will explain if needed). The PoA drydocks for a second time for a secondary refit and a delivery of Cortana.

6:49 am Red team fortification of ODG A-331

7:11 am Fred, Josh and Kelly obliterate a Covenant Cruiser, but with Josh listed as MIA in the process.

7:20 am ODG A-331 is destroyed with few Spartan survivors. Remaining Orbital Defense Platforms are now offline and obliterated by Plasma Bolts, leaving Reach vulnerable.

4:52 pm "The Pillar of Autumn" Level on Halo: Reach. Noble Six saves the PoA by destroying a Ready to Glass carrier headed their way using a MAC round from a stationary MAC turret. Cortana successfully delivered, and the PoA escapes for a second time, now successfully escaping with a dozen Covenant ships behind it. Halo: CE begins.

8:00 pm The Final Stand of Noble Six.

Need I say more? This timeline accurately shows Canon connections. Plus, if im partially incorrect, its Midnight =P

~B2


[Edited on 09.18.2010 5:04 AM PDT]

  • 09.18.2010 4:54 AM PDT

We believe that the universe is unbounded: this is not the same as infinite: the 2-D surface of a sphere, wrapped around a 3rd dimension, has a finite size, but has no end. If you start off in a given direction on the surface of a sphere, you could return to your start point without having to turn around -- you simply go all the way around. But wouldn't that mean the universe has an escape velocity like the earth?


Posted by: kippa
I'm not 100% on the notion that it was a SMAC that took out the Corvette above Sword Base. I say this because I wonder if they're even capable of turning and facing groundside. It could just have been a Frigate.


No, it was an orbital bombardment.

~B2

  • 09.18.2010 4:55 AM PDT
  •  | 
  • Exalted Heroic Member

you're naut cookin'

Posted by: Bungie2

Posted by: kippa
I'm not 100% on the notion that it was a SMAC that took out the Corvette above Sword Base. I say this because I wonder if they're even capable of turning and facing groundside. It could just have been a Frigate.


No, it was an orbital bombardment.

~B2


Yes, bombardment from orbit. That could either be a SMAC or a ship, I'm leaning towards ship.

  • 09.18.2010 4:57 AM PDT

We believe that the universe is unbounded: this is not the same as infinite: the 2-D surface of a sphere, wrapped around a 3rd dimension, has a finite size, but has no end. If you start off in a given direction on the surface of a sphere, you could return to your start point without having to turn around -- you simply go all the way around. But wouldn't that mean the universe has an escape velocity like the earth?

Sword Control: Noble Team Longswords are inbound and ready to push, orbital defense is standing by to take the shot.

Thats the quote that leans me towards SMAC. However I can't conclude speculation. So we both are correct somewhat, because neither one of us is wrong at this time. Although with a shot that vertical, I doubt a ship as massive as a Frigate can nosedive.

~B2

  • 09.18.2010 5:01 AM PDT
  •  | 
  • Exalted Heroic Member

you're naut cookin'

How the Frigates actually 'hover' at all is a question that can't be answered. Regardless, a MAC round fired from a Frigate doesn't mean the Frigate has to be within the atmosphere, the defence platforms certainly aren't.

  • 09.18.2010 5:30 AM PDT

Signatures are for squares.

Doesn't Long night of Solace take place early in August? To my understanding, that supercarrier was the only one around Reach, so why weren't ANY of the SMAC's around to take it out? Sure, I know they were spread out, but obviously most of the fighting was in that area, and it'd be able to turn and face the carrier.

No Orbital MAC's were lost until the 30th, so it really is unexplainable.

And TFoR makes no explanation as to why the Autumn would be ON the planet. If Keyes was going to land the ship to get Cortana, why would he even have Red Team go into HEAVY combat with a Pelican on it's way to the planet? It would have been safer to leave them on the ship with him until he landed.

Plus, how did the Autumn get refitted in orbit if the Covenant were invading? Hell, why was John testing Mark V in the mountains with ODST's and missiles being wasted on such a test.

  • 09.18.2010 5:54 AM PDT


Posted by: Hysterical Joker
I like that you describe it as a small advance force, but later mention the army hiding canopies. Is a Covenant Supercruiser part of a small advance force? Hardly seems covert.

Even the fact the Covenant were able to get that thing to Reach undetected is silly, not to mention deploy the materials required to construct cloaking devices without being discovered prior to them activating.

It could cloak, and the covenant can do super-precise slip space jumps.

  • 09.18.2010 6:10 AM PDT

Signatures are for squares.


Posted by: Jak O Bladez

Posted by: Hysterical Joker
I like that you describe it as a small advance force, but later mention the army hiding canopies. Is a Covenant Supercruiser part of a small advance force? Hardly seems covert.

Even the fact the Covenant were able to get that thing to Reach undetected is silly, not to mention deploy the materials required to construct cloaking devices without being discovered prior to them activating.

It could cloak, and the covenant can do super-precise slip space jumps.


Covenant ships cannot actually "cloak."

They can just "go dark." Same thing for UNSC ships, such as prowlers. They don't have actual cloaks on their ships. If they did, the Covenant would've won the war 20 years sooner.

  • 09.18.2010 6:13 AM PDT

Favorite video game series: Professor Layton or Half-Life
Favorite video game: Super Mario Galaxy
Favorite movie series: Pixar (It's not really a series, but I just can't pick.)
Favorite movie: Inception

I'm friggin' sick of these threads! I understand that the story has some plot-holes, but most could easily be fixed. Look at all the plot-holes that were fixed in Halsey's Journal! Any plot-hole will be solved within the coming months.

Besides, can't you just learn to love the story the way it is, and not go online everyday to complain about how the dates and numbers were wrong? No?

  • 09.18.2010 6:18 AM PDT

Some plotholes = throwing an entirely acceptable in the trash bin after 10 years of investment

I bought all their books and games, I have a right to nitpick,

And BTW, you have this stupid assumption that the journal fixes all the major inconsistencies, well it doesn't.

And also, Halo:Reach plot is terribly written. The first few levels, the script was good, and started going downhill. That's what happens when you have devs writing it, it's no wonder ME enjoys such a great story, they "hired" a professional writer.

[Edited on 09.18.2010 7:14 AM PDT]

  • 09.18.2010 7:11 AM PDT
  • gamertag: Bobvob
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Posted by: Hysterical Joker
I like that you describe it as a small advance force, but later mention the army hiding canopies. Is a Covenant Supercruiser part of a small advance force? Hardly seems covert.

Even the fact the Covenant were able to get that thing to Reach undetected is silly, not to mention deploy the materials required to construct cloaking devices without being discovered prior to them activating.


I was under the impression that it kinda just showed up in time to roast that frigate.


Posted by: A Puzzled Mind


I bought all their books and games, I have a right to nitpick,



You have no rights. Play nice.

[Edited on 09.18.2010 7:50 AM PDT]

  • 09.18.2010 7:50 AM PDT


Posted by: privet caboose
Doesn't Long night of Solace take place early in August? To my understanding, that supercarrier was the only one around Reach, so why weren't ANY of the SMAC's around to take it out? Sure, I know they were spread out, but obviously most of the fighting was in that area, and it'd be able to turn and face the carrier.


IIRC Depending on the calculations SMACs have gone up to 9.97 TERATONS OF TNT equivlant which is easily two orders of magnitue of say a single digit megaton nuclear weapon so taking the Assault Carrier (it wasn't a Supercarrier IMO)would of been WAY to risky without massive Environmental damage (Reach isn't some random small colony)even the lower end of 49 gigatons is almost an order magnitude compared to the Tsar Bomba which was 50 megatons which could of still done a lot of damage.

[Edited on 09.18.2010 7:52 AM PDT]

  • 09.18.2010 7:51 AM PDT