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This topic has moved here: Subject: Unexplainable errors in the Halo canon. (Spoilers)
  • Subject: Unexplainable errors in the Halo canon. (Spoilers)
Subject: Unexplainable errors in the Halo canon. (Spoilers)

Signatures are for squares.

Reach falling on just the 30th is stated in pretty much every single source of canon. Fall of Reach, First Strike, Evolutions(in Dirt they say Reach fell they're falling back to Earth, as if it happened so suddenly.) And the Encyclopedia.

While Fall of Reach is affected by the changes Halo: Reach makes to the canon, First Strike would have to be entirely re-written as well. Entire other sources of canon that First Strike effects would need to be re-written as well. So Ghosts of Oynx would need to be re-done.

It's a domino effect. Halo: Reach's release was the first domino tipped in the long line of domino's that are Halo canon. And without Bungie to step in and stop the canon from falling apart, 343 is the one who's going to have to set it all back up, because of Bungie's failure.

  • 01.03.2011 3:44 AM PDT

We need explanations from Bungie,seriously

  • 01.03.2011 4:38 AM PDT


Posted by: LiquidusClone
We need explanations from Bungie,seriously
heres hoping a ODST expanion to reach to make a side story so it does

[Edited on 01.03.2011 5:29 AM PST]

  • 01.03.2011 5:29 AM PDT

By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe.

Posted by: Alf stewert
Posted by: LiquidusClone
We need explanations from Bungie,seriously
heres hoping a ODST expanion to reach to make a side story so it does


We won't get one. Bungie aren't contracted to make another Halo game and most of the Bungie team is dedicated to their new IP.

  • 01.03.2011 5:32 AM PDT


Posted by: ajw34307
Posted by: Alf stewert
Posted by: LiquidusClone
We need explanations from Bungie,seriously
heres hoping a ODST expanion to reach to make a side story so it does


We won't get one. Bungie aren't contracted to make another Halo game and most of the Bungie team is dedicated to their new IP.
mayby from there DLC team or 343

  • 01.03.2011 5:35 AM PDT

About the lack of orbital mac cannons:

When you see the map before Tip of the spear they say that they are under attack across the Viery territory, including orbital defenses.

In Long night of solace Cat says:"...the covenant supercarrier in Geo-synchronous orbit above us..."

So if the orbital defenses are down in that area it would be possible for the supercarrier to remain there.

  • 01.03.2011 5:51 AM PDT

Yes. It broke an established canon. There's no denying that. People are bashing the TFoR book because "it only lasted a day", but there is so much stuff that can happen in a day. Just look at ODST! They did it in 6 hours!

Bungie just retconned a long established canon to appeal to the masses (ugh!). Heck, a Canon that was established in a book before Combat Evolved even came out. Reach is the second most disappointing Halo Campaign.

  • 01.03.2011 10:43 AM PDT

I sometimes have to wonder where people's heads are on this forum when the say that Reach didn't completely de-rail the series canon. The main reason why I even bothered to pick up a Halo game was because I read the Fall of Reach. At first I was hesitant to even pick up the book since it was based on a video game, but it turned out to be a great novel. Comparing the plot, characters, pacing and genuine quality of story telling FoR beats Reach into the ground. I can't help but feel that Bungie was forced to make Reach by MS, while most of the Bungie staff wanted to do something new, so when it came to the plot the lead writers said "Screw it. 343's in control of the series and isn't exactly maintaining quality control on the series, so why should we?" If that's the case; poor form Bungie. You should of left the series you created with a bang, not a long list of WTF plot holes that muddle what was a carefully crafted series. -_-

  • 01.03.2011 1:26 PM PDT

That being said, aside from the first edition of Evolutions most of the stuff 343 has been churning out hasn't been exactly great. Between the major re-canoning done by Reach, Halsey's Journal, Legends and the first two chapter's of Cryptum Halo isn't even the same story anymore. I think I'm done with the series, but I am looking forward to Bungies new IP.

  • 01.03.2011 1:36 PM PDT

This topic probably has the most appropriate title ever: Unexplainable Errors.

Not because that can't be explained, but because no explanation, from anyone, will be accepted.

Bungie and 343 could produce a 6 hour ViDoc full of explanations and none would be acceptable. TFoR says Reach fell in one day so that means (to some) that the Covenant was not even aware of Reach until then, and that they posses no technology that the UNSC was not fully aware of and able to defend against.

This Halo story is so big and convoluted that even Bungie can't keep up. When CE came out there was one game and one book. Then there was an explosion of stories written by different people with different agendas. Errors were bound to creep in. ONI and the AIs are pretty much 343s ace in the hole now as far as keeping the story together, if it's even possible. The "Halo Bible" is just as dynamic as any other Halo media. If you somehow got a copy ten years ago it would be different from today's copy.

The errors are unexplainable simply because some folks will not allow them to be explained.

Entertaining thread, though. Gives some people a chance to say what they would have done and make it sound like their idea is somehow better, without the benefit of having to come up with the idea in the first place, putting together a team to make it happen, getting the money to make it happen, and then trying to outdo yourself every time you do something else.

Yeah. It's just plain easier to sit on your butt and say Bungie screwed up. Hard work, that. We respect your opinion because of all the games you've developed.

Gonna keep an eye out for your next game so I can tell you how you screwed it up. I'll be right and you'll be wrong.

  • 01.03.2011 1:56 PM PDT

Lets Boogie


Posted by: privet caboose
Reach falling on just the 30th is stated in pretty much every single source of canon. Fall of Reach, First Strike, Evolutions(in Dirt they say Reach fell they're falling back to Earth, as if it happened so suddenly.) And the Encyclopedia.

While Fall of Reach is affected by the changes Halo: Reach makes to the canon, First Strike would have to be entirely re-written as well. Entire other sources of canon that First Strike effects would need to be re-written as well. So Ghosts of Oynx would need to be re-done.

It's a domino effect. Halo: Reach's release was the first domino tipped in the long line of domino's that are Halo canon. And without Bungie to step in and stop the canon from falling apart, 343 is the one who's going to have to set it all back up, because of Bungie's failure.


QFT

I have heard that there would be a Ghosts of Onyx sequel. Although i don't know how that would happen because a lot of what happened in GoO has been steamrolled by Halo Reach.

It is really sad that i spent my money on those books because at the time they were marketed as canon...and now i bought fan fiction (at least its really good fan fic).

I really wish Bungie would AT LEAST acknowledge what they have done.

  • 01.03.2011 2:03 PM PDT

i thought that two other spartans survived from alpha company

  • 01.03.2011 3:22 PM PDT

Signatures are for squares.

Posted by: DRKLITNING
i thought that two other spartans survived from alpha company


There were two survivors from Beta Company. Tom and Lucy. There are (four was it?) kids from Beta Company that went "MIA" on Oynx during training. Then there are the Headhunters that were pulled aside (16+ from each company) and trained to work in 2-man cells.

Other than that, every Spartan III was said to of died in their respective operations. Alpha died in PROMETHEUS, Beta died in TORPEDO, and Gamma was deployed after Reach fell.(So, potentially died at Earth.)

  • 01.03.2011 4:13 PM PDT

Valiant men have died here so we don't have to, so let's get the hell out.

I don't really see how Reach steamrolled GoO. I mean, Bungie could've done that and had Halsey stay behind at Sword to die but they didn't; they went out of their way to shuttle her off with Jun.

Does this mean Jun should be in First Strike and Onyx? Maybe, but he could easily have joined Nobel's Most Heroic Death competition somewhere between Sword and Castle or in defense of Castle before the rest of the Spartans showed up.
My biggest problem with Reach's storyline is the two time jumps mid plot for no good reason. To me this feels like Halo 2's choppy campaign.

To be honest though, I do prefer Reach to Fall of Reach because while I do enjoy the book it doesn't really hold up to standard and a lot of it was retconned already by other things. For example, Elites don't come into the picture until Reach? Twenty years into the war and the Covenant is just now putting their prize horse into the mix?

So I guess the TL;DR of this would be: Reach doesn't really destroy canon so much as change it for benefit of the game (Halo is after all, a gaming franchise). I just wish the game had a tighter, more coherent story.

  • 01.03.2011 4:23 PM PDT

I'd much rather they edit the game's story than the novel.

However, I was under the impression that the S3s of noble team were secretly acquired by ONI? They would be listed as dead, just like Kurt. It's plausible for them to have come from a group listed as all KIA.

  • 01.03.2011 8:34 PM PDT

"Alright sweethearts you heard the man and you know the drill, -blam!-s and elbows!"

BTW in the book they said that there were 100 unsc ships in orbit around reach at all times so where were they? In long night of solace it was said 60% of the unsc fleet was incoming but that made no sense since only 52 arrived from other places. If 52 ships counts as 60% then the humans are in real deep -blam!- not to mention what would 100 that were supposed to already be there be considered.
-The whole thing about how the covies were in a barren area made no sense. Ever heard of satellite imaging? Guess not.
-Cloaked city sized ship-ROFL!!!
-2 month long battle- the covies didn't even know reach's location until keyes arrived there with that ship he had before the POA yet in the game they were there already. Also the battle was like a day in the book which is technically "canon" -WTH?

Bottomline I don't even consider Halo Reach to be canon as it screws with nearly every aspect of the halo verse in some way. TFOR was more interesting anyway, Noble Team were a bunch of morons,the humans acted as if they didn't have a clue what was going on, and the covies sent their zealot field commanders on pointless archaeological expeditions and invaded random human cities for the lulz when their overhead ships could just roast the damn place. Dumbasses.

  • 01.03.2011 9:04 PM PDT

"Error: Alpha Company was wiped out completely during Operation: PROMETHEUS in 2537. Carter, Emile, and Jun should not be alive.

Proof: Halo: Ghosts of Onyx goes into quite a bit of detail on Operation: PROMETHEUS. Spartan-III Alpha Company (comprised of 300 Spartans) were sent to K7-49 on a mission to destroy plasma reactors the Covenant were using to liquefy metallurgical components.

The operation was a success, but it is explicitly stated that it cost the lives of every Spartan-III on the asteroid because they got cut off from their Calypso-class Exfiltration crafts and completely lost their unit cohesion.

Halo Reach chooses to ignore this. Carter (A-259), Emile (A-239), and Jun (A-266) are a part of Noble Team when they should have been dead years ago; Bungie have given us no explanation on how they escaped at all."

++the info on Reach states that the Spartan III's in Noble Team were separated from the main group relatively early in training, so they never would have gone on that mission in the first place.

-------------------
"Error: Carter, Emile, and Jun's age.
Carter is born in 2520. He was 11 years old when Alpha Company began their training. This puts him 5 years above the previously stated age, and it makes no sense at all. Why would they have an 11 year old on the same training regime as a 4 year old? It's too large of a difference, and it's an error that can be avoiding by simply changing his birthdate. This same thing goes for Emile and Jun, who are older than 6 years old at Alpha training.

Proof: Page 69(I'm doing this by memory, I may be wrong.) of Ghosts of Oynx states that all of Alpha Company was comprised of 4, 5, and 6 year old children that he was going to have to forge into the best warriors humanity has ever seen. "

++UNSC personnel's ages have always been tricky to calculate because of the effects of special relativity and cryo sleep. the error could be attributed to how the ages were calculated.

-------------------
"Error: ONI's actions as well as the Cole Protocol.

According to the Cole Protocol, if any Covenant Forces are detected, then all NAV bases and ships should purge their computers of information to protect Earth and the inner colonies.

Proof:If Covenant are detected on Reach on July 23rd, how is it that a month later, there are still computers with information to Earth still active? If ONI hadn't taken more than a month, than Blue team wouldn't have been deployed to the Circumference, and James wouldn't have died, and Linda wouldn't have been in a coma. Infact, they would have been on Reach with Red team."

++seriously? this isn't even an error, you're just complaining about a lack of an explanation.

---------------------
"Error: Lack of Orbital MAC's.

Proof: Reach had a number of Orbital MAC's that were used in the battle of Reach. They were present on August 30th, so they should have been present during the mission "Long Night of Solace" in Halo: Reach. Had they been present, they Jorge wouldn't have died. Where were they? "

++you're really grasping at straws here. those Covenant ships were probably in too high an orbit, and out of range. The Fall of Reach states that the most ships stayed out of range of the MAC guns during the battle. and at that range, you might not be able to see them with the naked eye.

-----------------------
"Error: Pillar of Autumn on Reach.

Proof During the final level of Halo: Reach, the Pillar of Autumn is on the planet, and isn't in space, preparing for the Prophet mission. This COMPLETELY destroys much of Halo's canon. If the ship wasn't in space, than the Spartans of Red Team would have never jumped to the planet, meaning that the 4 spartans who died, would have still been alive. Which could have hanged the outcome of the battle. PLUS, the space op to destroy the Circumference's NAV data wouldn't have happened. So Chief, James, and Linda had no reason to NOT be part of Red team. So the chief wouldn't have been on the Autumn, so Halo: CE wouldn't have happened."

++did you ever consider that maybe the Pillar just landed for a couple hours? it probably landed well after Red Team jumped, and it doesn't preclude the NAV data mission at all.

"Why schedule a mission to capture a prophet, when there's a full scale invasion of Humanities second most important planet? "

++because the mission was scheduled well before anyone found out about the invasion. unless you somehow totally forgot that.

----------------
look, you're arguments are poor. almost all those "errors" are completely explainable, and anything else just isn't a big deal. get over it.

[Edited on 01.05.2011 5:20 PM PST]

  • 01.05.2011 5:19 PM PDT
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CoD is a good game, even if the Halo series are better in some aspects. Anyone who insults either is just bad in that game. Grow up.


Posted by: maveric101
Snip
LOL, I'm sorry, but even though you have explained some of the more obvious of the errors (the ones regarding the Spartan IIIs) the ones regarding the Fall of Reach is still not well explained. Many have tried their hands at those mentioned in the OP, and some have came up with even better answers, but there are still loopholes within several of those. However, the discussion has greatly developed since then and became more in-depth on some topics, I suggest you actually looking into some of those propositions before bashing the OP, who hasn't changed the starting post since nearly the beginning of the thread.

To give you an example: The Pillar of Autumn was not rated for atmosphere flight. It would crash and burn as soon as it entered Reach's atmosphere due to its massive weight, let alone actually land without causing further damage. I don't have the exact numbers, but if you look through the earlier posts you will find them. As well, the plating on the PoA would have burnt away from the descent, and being that it was already severely damaged from its fight with the Covenant Super Cruiser, why would the PoA do that?

Then let's take a look at the times. I don't exactly remember when Red Team is dropped so I won't comment on that. However, there's no sign that the PoA even stopped in Halo: Reach's final cutscenes, and instead took a jump immediately. How can it pick up Blue Team then, and if it did pick up Blue Team, why did MC not accompany Keyes or even go in his place?

Privet Caboose's starting arguments are fairly valid, if grounded by the novels, but the errors brough by Reach are by no means "completely" explainable. Sure, with some bending of canon and suspension of belief, the storyline can still be intact. That doesn't change the fact that Halo: Reach's campaign just plain sucks.

  • 01.05.2011 7:25 PM PDT
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Posted by: LiquidusClone
We need explanations from Bungie,seriously


Isn't their explanation something to the effect of "take old information in broad strokes?"

  • 01.05.2011 7:26 PM PDT

wouldnt the refit make the POA atleast durable in atmosphere? most likely it would. Orignally it coudnt but a refitted POA/Halcyon most likely can and for a better use in halo legends origins 2 look at a certain scene with alot of ships flying upon amountin around 8:00 or so we see HOLY CRAP!!! halcyon ships :O

[Edited on 01.05.2011 8:05 PM PST]

  • 01.05.2011 8:02 PM PDT
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"Awesomeness will ensue..."

BEN SPARTAN120

The amount of off topic posts in this thread is laughable :D

Perhaps as an explanation to the lack of story true to cannon/cohesive story might be found in this theory: Halo Reach stands as testament more to technical achievements [The game works as a 'test bed' if you will, for future projects] rather than story telling. That explanation is the only closure I can find as a person of Cannon.

Of course, explanation also lies in the logical fact that Reach was intended to appeal to new comers to the franchise. Having a story as deep and intense as what is found in the various forms of [true] Cannon tends to be off putting to a new, unreceptive audience. The majority of modern gamers are not looking for an in-depth experience, they don't want long term engagements, they want fast, easy to understand media. Bungie are not by any means, the only company who have trended towards this either. Look at Mass Effect 2. Compared to the first game, it lacked the depth and investment of its predecessor [Exploration+ME2= Syntax Error]

CoD is the new wave of games. Player Investment is found in the fast, changing world of online, multi-player gaming. Gaming is no longer the domain of the geeks, nor has it been for the last six years. I don't hate Bungie for the campaign of Reach, but as their last foray into the series [for the foreseeable future] I was underwhelmed, not disappointed.

On a side note, the Legendary Edition was far from Legendary. I was hoping for a bonus dvd or two, packed with behind the scenes features [yes some of us do actually watch that stuff] but to no avail. The formula was not followed this time around.

  • 01.05.2011 8:53 PM PDT


Posted by: ZedFish
Posted by: EchoGamer

Posted by: The Highwayman48
Bungie has stated that all secondary media (books, movies, ex) are non-canon. I do tend to go by the novels, but official canon is the games.

Give me a quote. Now. Because, I've never heard this.

I swear to god, the next person to post this should be shot.

How many times to we need to re-state this?
BUNGIE HAS SAID, FROM THE BEGINNING, THAT ALL BOOKS ARE CANON.
The books area great read, but let's be honest; they're so full of mistakes that I'm surprised that Bungie considers them canon.

Do I enjoy them? Yes.
Do I think that the story they tell are a good addition to halo canon? Yes.
Do they override game? NO.

The only thing that Halo: Reach has contradicted is Nyland's Fall of Reach, which even after a reprint can't get it's dates right. It contradicts itself.

One of the big arguments is "Reach fell in a day, not a month".
What if Nyland blam'd up, again? Ever think of that?

Books = Canon
Games = Canon

When:
Games V. Books, Games = Greater Canon

I trust the most reliable source, so I go by Halo: Reach's dates. Did the events of Fall of Reach happen? Yes. Did they happen at the time Nyland said they did? No. I trust Bungie more.

Fine, then it is up to Bungie to explain the inconsistencies, given that, up to now, they have maintained that ALL Halo books are canon, and, while games are the greatest authority, there have not been inconsistencies of the magnitude that have been generated from Halo: Reach.

I'm going to say this again, Halo: The Fall of Reach was released just after Halo: Combat Evolved. Nylund worked closely with Bungie while writing it, and Bungie still had the damn rights to Halo. If Nylund "blam'd" something up (IE, everything) Bungie would have corrected it. Up until the release of Halo: Reach, Halo: The Fall of Reach fit in perfectly with established canon, but now, as other members of the forum have pointed out, it doesn't. The entire book needs to be rewritten, and from there, we need to rewrite all the other books as well.

As someone who's put allot of money into the Halo franchise, I'm not happy that half of that has apparently gone into what is now glorified fan fiction.

  • 01.05.2011 9:23 PM PDT

with tht Poa being on reach and S117 said to be in the cyro tube in the cargo bay. dont kno if we can be sure that it is the Chief. it could be S058 linda who was injured on the space op with him and is in a coma. so it could be her who in in the tube but the bigest error i find is it says in the fall of reach that cortana is already on the poa wen they have the mission canceled to capture a prophet and are called back to reach so why would nobol6 need to trasport her to the poa?

but what it could be is after the space opt dr halsey recalls the poa to give cortana the vital info just before they jump to the ring which could explain the clash in the stories

  • 01.07.2011 11:39 AM PDT

Signatures are for squares.

Bungie confirmed the spartan in the tube was Chief.

  • 01.07.2011 11:53 AM PDT

The best defense is a good one.

arent they (or already have) rewriting the fall of reach to accomadate their pointless changes?

  • 01.07.2011 1:55 PM PDT