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This topic has moved here: Subject: Unexplainable errors in the Halo canon. (Spoilers)
  • Subject: Unexplainable errors in the Halo canon. (Spoilers)
Subject: Unexplainable errors in the Halo canon. (Spoilers)

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Posted by: scud7171
arent they (or already have) rewriting the fall of reach to accomadate their pointless changes?


No. It was only a reissue with minor edits of the core story with new short stories added onto the end that have no relation to the core story.

  • 01.07.2011 1:58 PM PDT

Honestly, I think Bungie just said "You know what, this is our last game, F it let's just do what we want."

They had to, otherwise if it wasn't on purpose then the huge retcon job that is Halo: Reach is just a giant, negligent screw up on Bungie's part. I mean COME ON! The entire game basically contradicts TFoR and I for one, don't give a rat's arse what Bungie says, the Book > Game.

The book was better written and predates the game, and fits nicely into the rest of the canon. Plus, Noble Team was just so unbelievably incompetent. Why are their AIs so dumb? Why did they constantly make poor decisions and as a result die cheap, meaningless deaths?

Let's start with Jorge. IIRC, there's at least a couple of marines present when he & Six mull over what to do about the bomb malfunction (cliche plot device much Bungie?). Yeah, *no* f-ing way. Jorge is too valuable, so guess what, like it or not the marines stay behind and prime the sucker. They're expendable, Spartans aren't. (How is he a Spartan II anyway?)

Kat's death was equally as stupid. First off, no way they would just blindly run out into the open like that, especially with Jun on the other side. Why wasn't he covering them? And since when does a single needle rifle shot tear right through a fully-shielded Spartan? Unless for some stupid reason Kat's shields were offline, she should have shrugged that round off and kept going.

What I hate most of all is Six. After playing through Reach, I really came to like Six a lot. And then they basically pulled another Final Fantasy 7 death-sentence condemning the real hero of the story so that the new game can take his place as he fights an endless horde of enemies until he ultimately dies. Yeah that didn't piss me off too much Bungie... >:(


Then you've got all their equipment, too - As long as they were bringing stuff along, why didn't they stock any armor abilities for John? Who's moron decision was it to save ONE SPARTAN ONLY? You gonna tell me all the marines with Keyes couldn't have gotten out to either cover or go in place of Six?

And then there's idiot comment one of the troopers makes about how they "just rigged it up" (the MAC gun). Err, yeah, sure. You just rigged up a freaking MAC on the fly, ok then Bungie. I have a friend in the reserve who does artillery and he calls supreme BS on that.


It's just so very disappointing, because the game was fun and I was enjoying it but ultimately their screwing with the plot and timeline just ruins the whole experience for me. I pray that 343 Industries does a better job with the plot for future games.


The last point I want to make is that even Halo Wars did a better job adhering to the cannon - the 3 Spartans of Red Team Omega fit nicely with the 3 listed MIAs in TFoR.

  • 01.07.2011 4:31 PM PDT

On hiding dead bodies:
Posted by: Psuedo
Posted by: teh Chaz
Inside another dead body. It's the last place they'll look
A corpse within a corpse.
CORPSEPTION.
Win.

Posted by: Malachite
The book was better written and predates the game, and fits nicely into the rest of the canon. Plus, Noble Team was just so unbelievably incompetent. Why are their AIs so dumb? Why did they constantly make poor decisions and as a result die cheap, meaningless deaths?
AI is dumb for gameplay. Admittedly, it is stupid beyond belief, but if it was anywhere near decent, the game would play itself. If it was realistic (in terms of a SPARTAN), 6 probably would never kill anything.

Let's start with Jorge. IIRC, there's at least a couple of marines present when he & Six mull over what to do about the bomb malfunction (cliche plot device much Bungie?). Yeah, *no* f-ing way. Jorge is too valuable, so guess what, like it or not the marines stay behind and prime the sucker. They're expendable, Spartans aren't. (How is he a Spartan II anyway?)It's never explained how he is in Noble Team. Halsey doesn't question it either, which is more bizarre.
Jorge arming the bomb was a meaningless and stupid plot device. There are many in Reach, unfortunately.

Kat's death was equally as stupid. First off, no way they would just blindly run out into the open like that, especially with Jun on the other side. Why wasn't he covering them? And since when does a single needle rifle shot tear right through a fully-shielded Spartan? Unless for some stupid reason Kat's shields were offline, she should have shrugged that round off and kept going.Her shields were offline, but no-one can agree why.
Some say EMP from the glassing beam, but then people question why the elevator still worked. Others say that she 'forgot' to reactivate her shields, which is just BS.

Then you've got all their equipment, too - As long as they were bringing stuff along, why didn't they stock any armor abilities for John? Who's moron decision was it to save ONE SPARTAN ONLY? You gonna tell me all the marines with Keyes couldn't have gotten out to either cover or go in place of Six?Noble Team's MJOLNIR was non-standard and altered. Some armour plates have been removed, as well as some minor systems. Plus they were able to customise and configure their armour, which they were not supposed to be able to do with the MkV variant. According to what Halsey says in the Journal, it's not even possible.
It most likely wouldn't have been compatible gear for John's standard MkV.

And then there's idiot comment one of the troopers makes about how they "just rigged it up" (the MAC gun). Err, yeah, sure. You just rigged up a freaking MAC on the fly, ok then Bungie. I have a friend in the reserve who does artillery and he calls supreme BS on that.The Mass Driver was likely already there, and is probably the future shipwrecking yard equivalent of the wrecking ball, used to blast off super-damaged armour plates, and also to help separate sections of ships for scrapping. Most likely the 'rigging up' of the gun was merely allowing it to fire into the sky.

The last point I want to make is that even Halo Wars did a better job adhering to the cannon - the 3 Spartans of Red Team Omega fit nicely with the 3 listed MIAs in TFoR.Except for the fact that there are those 3 MIA SPARTANS, then Grey Team has also been MIA since 2551, and then something like 12 or 15 dead SPARTANS (compared to the 3 dead stated in TFOR), and then Black Team are sort of ish MIA.

  • 01.09.2011 2:32 AM PDT

Life?
I have the internet and Doctor Who; i don't need a life.

that's the thing with halo; unlike doctor who, explaining away canon problems isn't very easy

  • 01.09.2011 4:55 AM PDT
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I've played all the halo games, and read most the halo books, and to me the halo canon just gets even more... Bewildering. Nothing ties together anymore.

Destroying the canon is a pretty solid way of destroying the halo fanbase and franchise. I just dont care about the next bit of halo lore anymore because it always conflicts with something we already know.

Im interested in cryptum because its set 100,000 years ago and we know very little about the forerunners (cant conflict with the canon too much surely?) But im already hearing negative things.

  • 01.09.2011 5:17 AM PDT


Posted by: D34DSP4WN
About the lack of orbital mac cannons:

When you see the map before Tip of the spear they say that they are under attack across the Viery territory, including orbital defenses.

In Long night of solace Cat says:"...the covenant supercarrier in Geo-synchronous orbit above us..."

So if the orbital defenses are down in that area it would be possible for the supercarrier to remain there.

Still doesn't explain the lack of the entire Fleet that is supposed to be at Reach.

Nor does it explain why there are no Orbital guns anywhere... ever. The guns didn't start falling until the 30th in TFoR, because they were the only thing stopping the Covenant from blowing through the fleet.

And, hell, I just thought of another incosistancy: Why would the guns even still be operational for the battle on the 30th? the Covenant are blowing through ground forces, you'd think they would prioritize the SMAC generators. And, if they did, then how the hell did the battle last so long?

[Edited on 01.09.2011 7:54 PM PST]

  • 01.09.2011 7:50 PM PDT

Per Audacia Ad Astra!

all of this is a real shame, but it does not change the significance of the Halo universe or its many many layers. Most of the issues that have been mentioned throughout this thread are timeline errors and minor things. I've found my self just adjusting for these things in my mind, its not much less frustrating but I have faith in Bungie and 343's eventual plan to tie all this together as best as possible.
We should also remember how much this fiction has grown and how fast it has. the universes fiction pretty much went supernova shortly after Halo 2 and The Fall Of Reach.
*shrugs* all these timeline glitchs and BS is just that, because for me it does not change how compelling and fun the Halo universe really is..

  • 01.11.2011 1:05 PM PDT
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Got pork?

You obviously haven't met my younger brother then.


Posted by: Hysterical Joker
It is very disappointing, given how enthralling and great the story is for The Fall of Reach and First Strike, not withstanding the obvious retcon issues. Even if they are re-making the novels to fix this, it will destroy a story that I very much preferred.

Same, I think it's outrageous. It should have followed the books to the mark. Although some mistakes can be filled in with new canon I guess.

  • 01.11.2011 1:08 PM PDT
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Just one of the things that gets on my nerve is the complete slaughter of the previous books{Canon). I have all the books, including buying them again for the new releases.(yep, I'm a chump now Bungie). Take GoO for instance. One of my favorite parts (after Kelly hanging a beating on an SIII) is when Halsey put's it all together, and even figures out who Kurt is. " You are a Spartan II, I recognize my work". Reach has ruined most of that book now, and Nylund did an excellent job in writing it.

More to follow

  • 01.13.2011 1:14 PM PDT

Vengeance only leads to an ongoing cycle of hatred.

Bungie took a massive s*it all over canon with Reach. I am so disappointed.

  • 01.13.2011 2:45 PM PDT

Yes I am British, I like tea, I like crumpets, and I am going to kick your ass!

Bungie did make some very obvious mistakes in the Halo canon, but its not like they care since they're not going to make another one.

  • 01.14.2011 7:59 AM PDT

TFLW

It never said it was Master Chief (Unless I am missing something?) I am pretty sure it was Linda. It may have been someone completely different, an unnamed Spartan. I do not know why it was in the bay, but it was only just an Easter egg, not cannon.


Posted by: L0V3LikeRockets
Posted by: Ageless Durandal
Also, you do realize that the books are "optional" canon and are over-ridden by the game canon, right?

This is not true, it has been confirmed by Bungie before that the books were just as much canon as the games have ever been, and the reaffirmed by 343i at comic-con.

Oh and I'm not sure if this counts, but one small thing to add to your list is on top of the PoA being on Reach in Halo: Reach is that John-117 is shown in cryosleep in the bay of the ship. Not only does this not make sense for him to be in cryosleep before the ship has even left, since in tFoR he is only put in cryosleep before they make the jump to slip-space; but also because why in the world would his cryotube be in the docking bay? That doesn't even make sense just using common sense, and thats not even where we start playing as Chief in CE.

And yes I realize this was meant more to be an Easter Egg, but hey its in the game, and its not as if its in background of gameplay way off in the distance or anything. All in all I think Reach just has to be considered non-canon. There are just way to many discrepancies for it to possibly make it all work out. Entertainment wise I very much enjoyed Reach, but canon wise it was very disappointing.

  • 01.14.2011 8:53 AM PDT
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http://www.bungie.net/images/news/inline10/121710/Holiday_Car d_2010.jpg

oni lies a lot so with alpha company that could have been a cover so that less people would know of them including kert

  • 01.15.2011 9:13 AM PDT

Brains beats brawn get used to it

Fear the Red Comet

Variety is the spice of life.
Long live games.
Death to all fanboys.


Posted by: Barzerath
It never said it was Master Chief (Unless I am missing something?) I am pretty sure it was Linda. It may have been someone completely different, an unnamed Spartan. I do not know why it was in the bay, but it was only just an Easter egg, not cannon.


Bungie officially said it was the MC.

  • 01.15.2011 9:16 AM PDT

:P

You nerd! No one gives a -blam- about this stuff

  • 01.15.2011 5:01 PM PDT

Lets Boogie


Posted by: Sol the Elite
You nerd! No one gives a -blam- about this stuff


If no one cares about this canon stuff...then why are there 43 pages dedicated to the continuity problem created by Reach?

  • 01.15.2011 6:54 PM PDT
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Posted by: SEAL Sniper 9
Bungie took a massive s*it all over canon with Reach. I am so disappointed.


Rigid adherence to a set canon makes a 'verse a dull read.

Canon is naturally subjective, anyhow. Comic books wouldn't last were it not for retcons. Some are neccessary, some are not. Ultimately, I just don't care either way.

  • 01.15.2011 7:50 PM PDT
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Ultimately, I think Bungie retconned in order to make the game they wanted.

Space battles don't make sense? Too bad, they want space battles. Spartans fighting in a city with helicopters doesn't fit the timeframe? Gosh darn it, we want helicopters.

In my opinion, with a videogame, this is how things should be done. Gameplay matters, to me, over the story, and I think Reach played pretty darn well.

  • 01.15.2011 7:56 PM PDT

Eh, I don't think little contradictions like how many Spartans did what where are important, or whether a certain spaceship was in orbit or on the ground...

As long as it doesn't undermine a major theme or plot element, it doesn't really matter. They just built a fun game and tied it up nicely with the other games for people who haven't read any of the books.

Besides, most of the books are garbage, and the cutscenes are garbage. The only really good storytelling is to be found in the terminals/datapads, the overall plot ideas, and Cryptum.

  • 01.15.2011 8:25 PM PDT

On hiding dead bodies:
Posted by: Psuedo
Posted by: teh Chaz
Inside another dead body. It's the last place they'll look
A corpse within a corpse.
CORPSEPTION.
Win.

Posted by: haloplayer2kill

Posted by: Sol the Elite
You nerd! No one gives a -blam- about this stuff


If no one cares about this canon stuff...then why are there 43 pages dedicated to the continuity problem created by Reach?
Because at least 6 pages worth of replies are people being idiots like this guy saying 'who cares'.
We care. There is a forum dedicated to things like this. We're in it.

  • 01.16.2011 2:59 AM PDT

-Panthers are the best.
-Haters gonna hate.
-Who Dares Wins
-If your one of my real life friends. STOP GOOGLE-ING ME.
XD

what i found outright annoying was that banshee's could go to slipspace along with phantoms and seraphs, in the book first strike when the spartans attempted to just exit slipspace in a stolen ship, not phantom the other one cant remember its name, the spartans reinforced it with double hull and titanium and they still blacked out and only just survived if it werent for augmentations they would be dead, yet elites can go into and outoff slipspace in effectively a droppod and survive. yet their own transport was nearly destroyed

  • 01.17.2011 9:14 AM PDT

I have one, I just copied and pasted from a post I made not long ago:

Okay well I started reading Halo: The Flood written by William C. Dietz a few days ago after reading Halo; The Fall of Reach, Halo: First Strike and Halo: Ghosts of Onyx all written by Eric Nylund. I have recently ready the part when Captain Keys was captured. Something I read caught my attention and immediately ticked me off this is what I read: "The Elite snapped up a fallen M6D pistol and shot Dowski. The bullet hit her in the center of her forehead."
Covenant would NEVER use human weapons aka "heretic weapons" It evene stated in Ghosts of onyx that Elites would rather die in the battlefield then pick up a fully loaded rifle on the ground. I dont know if this is authors mistake or if this is intended but if this is authors mistake then William C. Dietz should not of written a Halo: Book. I also noticed how the book explained that the elite killed everyone but Captain Keyes and later in the game in the cell blocks of The Truth and Reconciliation there are other marines in the cell block with Captain Keyes, this does concern me as much the the elite killing a human with a heretic weapon definitely does.

TL;DR
The book explained that an Elite killed a human with a pistol which is considered a heretic weapon and they would never do that, this really concerns me...

Discuss.(btw I read this on page 103 in Halo: The Flood)

  • 01.17.2011 5:46 PM PDT
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CoD is a good game, even if the Halo series are better in some aspects. Anyone who insults either is just bad in that game. Grow up.


Posted by: Dpwn3rrr
I have one, I just copied and pasted from a post I made not long ago:

Okay well I started reading Halo: The Flood written by William C. Dietz a few days ago after reading Halo; The Fall of Reach, Halo: First Strike and Halo: Ghosts of Onyx all written by Eric Nylund. I have recently ready the part when Captain Keys was captured. Something I read caught my attention and immediately ticked me off this is what I read: "The Elite snapped up a fallen M6D pistol and shot Dowski. The bullet hit her in the center of her forehead."
Covenant would NEVER use human weapons aka "heretic weapons" It evene stated in Ghosts of onyx that Elites would rather die in the battlefield then pick up a fully loaded rifle on the ground. I dont know if this is authors mistake or if this is intended but if this is authors mistake then William C. Dietz should not of written a Halo: Book. I also noticed how the book explained that the elite killed everyone but Captain Keyes and later in the game in the cell blocks of The Truth and Reconciliation there are other marines in the cell block with Captain Keyes, this does concern me as much the the elite killing a human with a heretic weapon definitely does.

TL;DR
The book explained that an Elite killed a human with a pistol which is considered a heretic weapon and they would never do that, this really concerns me...

Discuss.(btw I read this on page 103 in Halo: The Flood)


TBH, that isn't as much of a canon break as just an eccentricity. Yes, the sangheili refuse to use "heretic" weapons, but that's in an actual combat situation, where they'd rather die with honor than to sink to the "heretics' level". In the circumstances you described, the covenant had total control, and it was more of a humiliation execution technique rather than actually using the said weapon in battle. In other words, just because they're described to be too prideful to ever use it in a fight, doesn't mean that they would go so far as to not even touch it.

As for the marines that were with Keyes...It is a bit peculiar, seeing as how the covenant didn't usually take prisoners, however, considering that there were other human forces on the Halo ring, it is highly likely that some of them would have been captured and was simply kept in the same holding cell as the Captain.

  • 01.17.2011 6:11 PM PDT
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"Awesomeness will ensue..."

BEN SPARTAN120


Posted by: Beowolfe

Posted by: Dpwn3rrr
I have one, I just copied and pasted from a post I made not long ago:

Okay well I started reading Halo: The Flood written by William C. Dietz a few days ago after reading Halo; The Fall of Reach, Halo: First Strike and Halo: Ghosts of Onyx all written by Eric Nylund. I have recently ready the part when Captain Keys was captured. Something I read caught my attention and immediately ticked me off this is what I read: "The Elite snapped up a fallen M6D pistol and shot Dowski. The bullet hit her in the center of her forehead."
Covenant would NEVER use human weapons aka "heretic weapons" It evene stated in Ghosts of onyx that Elites would rather die in the battlefield then pick up a fully loaded rifle on the ground. I dont know if this is authors mistake or if this is intended but if this is authors mistake then William C. Dietz should not of written a Halo: Book. I also noticed how the book explained that the elite killed everyone but Captain Keyes and later in the game in the cell blocks of The Truth and Reconciliation there are other marines in the cell block with Captain Keyes, this does concern me as much the the elite killing a human with a heretic weapon definitely does.

TL;DR
The book explained that an Elite killed a human with a pistol which is considered a heretic weapon and they would never do that, this really concerns me...

Discuss.(btw I read this on page 103 in Halo: The Flood)


TBH, that isn't as much of a canon break as just an eccentricity. Yes, the sangheili refuse to use "heretic" weapons, but that's in an actual combat situation, where they'd rather die with honor than to sink to the "heretics' level". In the circumstances you described, the covenant had total control, and it was more of a humiliation execution technique rather than actually using the said weapon in battle. In other words, just because they're described to be too prideful to ever use it in a fight, doesn't mean that they would go so far as to not even touch it.

As for the marines that were with Keyes...It is a bit peculiar, seeing as how the covenant didn't usually take prisoners, however, considering that there were other human forces on the Halo ring, it is highly likely that some of them would have been captured and was simply kept in the same holding cell as the Captain.


Who uses what gun is nothing to do with this thread ^-^ The Flood was written after Combat Evolved was released, so all events portrayed in the book are taken from the game, with a few bits and pieces filled in, i.e, Marine P.O.W's on the Truth and Reconciliation in the game transitions to a small defensive squad accompanying the Naval crew.

Anyway, this thread is becoming too hard to follow. The topics were canonical inconsistencies found through out Reach, but a fair amount of posts are about pointless and completely unrelated issues. Lets try and tidy up the tail end of this thread please?

  • 01.18.2011 12:43 AM PDT
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Time to get a drink and watch the world burn. Or deal with it.

It is just a game. It may be important, but it is just a game. DEAL WITH CANON ERRORS!!!!!

  • 01.18.2011 11:49 AM PDT