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  • Subject: Unexplainable errors in the Halo canon. (Spoilers)
Subject: Unexplainable errors in the Halo canon. (Spoilers)


Posted by: Evil Johnny

Posted by: Najar
Posted by: SonicJohn
Note: the following is all educated speculation

Halo Reach was Bungie's big middle finger to Microsoft regarding story.

This, i tought about this to, i agree completely.


Yeah, but it's at the same time a middle finger to us. How would you feel if you were told, that the story of several books you read years ago, books which you thought was canon and deepened a universe you liked, to be false? It sucks hard. As a fan, it's hard to love something that goes against anything you've been loving for far longer.


I'm sorry, but I don't see why Bungie would "purposefully" screw up their own created canon just to get back at Microsoft. That is petty and childish, and Bungie isn't made up of children. The fact they look forward to what 343 does with halo is another point.

  • 02.10.2011 3:01 PM PDT

If you can read this, that means I'm not a Shaolin monk...

yet.


Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron

Posted by: OrderedComa

Posted by: privet caboose
This is actual a very good read that sums up many of the canon errors from a different point of view. Scroll through the post until you see "Section III: Plot holes and bad writing."


Some of Aratech's arguments are good, but most of it was too colored by his feelings to actually be considered logically. And many of his arguments are flimsy and can easily be countered by anyone with half a brain-cell to call his own. He barely analyzes his so called "issues" and goes to great lengths to criticize the plot analyzing the smallest details. Of course he's going to find mistakes doing that, hell, I could do the same to something like Lord of the Rings, analyzing every single little detail is going to show up a whole lot of "mistakes".

So while he does raise a couple valid points worth thinking about, his review is far too colored by his own bias against the story, like many other people I have seen criticizing Reach, this taints what otherwise might have been a reasonable article with inflammatory, poor logic and reasoning.


I, having read that article/post, have to completely disagree with what Aratech said(for the most part).

Some of his arguments sound like somebody who didn't even look at the campaign with a clear eye. "How did they get visual feed while inside the Spire's shield? I mean, the shield blocks sensors!" When I read that, I laughed. The Spire didn't block sensors(which are completely different from communications and visual feeds running off said lines.), it was the pylon that was blown up in the begining of Tip of the Spear. When he talks about Kat's death, he mentions "Why didn't she turn on her shields?" The answer is, "She couldn't due to the glassing beam/radiation from the beam." You see three Spartans without helms in the cutscene. After putting helms on, you see NONE with shields reactivating. After the beam, they would have.

At one point he talks about ending of LNOS, and from that point on it sounded like he simply hated Spartan IIIs(Or at least Noble Team members). "Six should have handed his pack to Jorge and died there cause Spartan IIs are inferior in EVERY way to Spartan II's." He must forget to notice how Jorge didn't give Six a chance to do anything. Jorge literally went "Let me do this for Reach." *Tosses Six out of window*

Among other little details he blew to epic proportions while making me shake my head was Easter eggs. He took the MC easter egg at the end of the PoA, as CANON EVENT. He made it sound like it was the legendary ending and forces the camera to scroll over (which it doesn't.)

Why did Jorge do that to six? Oh yeah, because that's how the game goes... That was a stupid argument on your part. Jorge is superior to Noble Six, and they both know it. Only thing slowing Jorge down is the fact that his place in the squad makes him not as flexible as other S-II's, but he's still better than any S-III.

Aratech wins here.

[Edited on 02.10.2011 3:14 PM PST]

  • 02.10.2011 3:11 PM PDT

If you can read this, that means I'm not a Shaolin monk...

yet.


Posted by: Evil Johnny

Posted by: Najar
Posted by: SonicJohn
Note: the following is all educated speculation

Halo Reach was Bungie's big middle finger to Microsoft regarding story.

This, i tought about this to, i agree completely.


Yeah, but it's at the same time a middle finger to us. How would you feel if you were told, that the story of several books you read years ago, books which you thought was canon and deepened a universe you liked, to be false? It sucks hard. As a fan, it's hard to love something that goes against anything you've been loving for far longer.

Yeah.

What if Bungie actually continued the Halo series, and then contradicted Halo: Reach and the trilogy's canon? I think the Reach fans would just follow along, blindly, again.

  • 02.10.2011 3:16 PM PDT


Posted by: TheGreenAlloy

Why did Jorge do that to six? Oh yeah, because that's how the game goes... That was a stupid argument on your part. Jorge is superior to Noble Six, and they both know it. Only thing slowing Jorge down is the fact that his place in the squad makes him not as flexible as other S-II's, but he's still better than any S-III.

Aratech wins here.


Once again, rebutted with the typical and stupid "Spartan II = always better then Spartan III" statement.

Jorge, while being a bear of a spartan II, and experienced, doesn't really have anything special about his service record. Six, on the other hand, is one of the best Spartan III's (I believe it's quoted as he could have been a Spartan II if he was around when she was selecting recruits.). Six's service record adds to this. A lone wolf assassin who, without ANY backup, AI, marine, heavy vehicle support, took out entire bases of rebels. A Spartan II group, twice secured objective from a rebel base, but had trouble getting in and out. The second time they literally ended up KO'ed until Kurt came in and saved them(This is Master Chief, Kelly, and another one.).

Oh, and the fact Spartan III training is labeled as BETTER. Kurt and Mendez trained them using knowledge of what was needed from the Spartan II training, making the shorter period have more information learned.

To quote Colonel Ackerson "Make the units better with new technology. Make more of them. And make them cheaper.".

  • 02.10.2011 4:10 PM PDT


Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron

Posted by: TheGreenAlloy

Why did Jorge do that to six? Oh yeah, because that's how the game goes... That was a stupid argument on your part. Jorge is superior to Noble Six, and they both know it. Only thing slowing Jorge down is the fact that his place in the squad makes him not as flexible as other S-II's, but he's still better than any S-III.

Aratech wins here.


Once again, rebutted with the typical and stupid "Spartan II = always better then Spartan III" statement.

Jorge, while being a bear of a spartan II, and experienced, doesn't really have anything special about his service record. Six, on the other hand, is one of the best Spartan III's (I believe it's quoted as he could have been a Spartan II if he was around when she was selecting recruits.). Six's service record adds to this. A lone wolf assassin who, without ANY backup, AI, marine, heavy vehicle support, took out entire bases of rebels. A Spartan II group, twice secured objective from a rebel base, but had trouble getting in and out. The second time they literally ended up KO'ed until Kurt came in and saved them(This is Master Chief, Kelly, and another one.).

Oh, and the fact Spartan III training is labeled as BETTER. Kurt and Mendez trained them using knowledge of what was needed from the Spartan II training, making the shorter period have more information learned.

To quote Colonel Ackerson "Make the units better with new technology. Make more of them. And make them cheaper.".

not trying to argue with you because six probably is better than most Spartan II's, but it never mentions how big the base is, how many rebels there were, or the weapons they have

  • 02.10.2011 4:19 PM PDT


Posted by: monkDAN

Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron

Posted by: TheGreenAlloy

Why did Jorge do that to six? Oh yeah, because that's how the game goes... That was a stupid argument on your part. Jorge is superior to Noble Six, and they both know it. Only thing slowing Jorge down is the fact that his place in the squad makes him not as flexible as other S-II's, but he's still better than any S-III.

Aratech wins here.


Once again, rebutted with the typical and stupid "Spartan II = always better then Spartan III" statement.

Jorge, while being a bear of a spartan II, and experienced, doesn't really have anything special about his service record. Six, on the other hand, is one of the best Spartan III's (I believe it's quoted as he could have been a Spartan II if he was around when she was selecting recruits.). Six's service record adds to this. A lone wolf assassin who, without ANY backup, AI, marine, heavy vehicle support, took out entire bases of rebels. A Spartan II group, twice secured objective from a rebel base, but had trouble getting in and out. The second time they literally ended up KO'ed until Kurt came in and saved them(This is Master Chief, Kelly, and another one.).

Oh, and the fact Spartan III training is labeled as BETTER. Kurt and Mendez trained them using knowledge of what was needed from the Spartan II training, making the shorter period have more information learned.

To quote Colonel Ackerson "Make the units better with new technology. Make more of them. And make them cheaper.".

not trying to argue with you because six probably is better than most Spartan II's, but it never mentions how big the base is, how many rebels there were, or the weapons they have

If they are anything like the rebel bases from the books, I would say big. Like, at least 1000 troops. None of that sissy 999 troops thing.

  • 02.10.2011 5:09 PM PDT

Fight to the end, and give it your all.

Bungie tweaked canon to make type of campaign they wanted. Oh, and for the Pillar of Autumn, Bungie changed the battle to one month which helps explain why it was on the planet. And for the platform's, maybe they just didn't have enough development time or they may be on a side of a planet we can't see for all we know or some were destroyed.

  • 02.10.2011 5:41 PM PDT


Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron

Posted by: OrderedComa

Posted by: privet caboose
This is actual a very good read that sums up many of the canon errors from a different point of view. Scroll through the post until you see "Section III: Plot holes and bad writing."


Some of Aratech's arguments are good, but most of it was too colored by his feelings to actually be considered logically. And many of his arguments are flimsy and can easily be countered by anyone with half a brain-cell to call his own. He barely analyzes his so called "issues" and goes to great lengths to criticize the plot analyzing the smallest details. Of course he's going to find mistakes doing that, hell, I could do the same to something like Lord of the Rings, analyzing every single little detail is going to show up a whole lot of "mistakes".

So while he does raise a couple valid points worth thinking about, his review is far too colored by his own bias against the story, like many other people I have seen criticizing Reach, this taints what otherwise might have been a reasonable article with inflammatory, poor logic and reasoning.


I, having read that article/post, have to completely disagree with what Aratech said(for the most part).

Some of his arguments sound like somebody who didn't even look at the campaign with a clear eye. "How did they get visual feed while inside the Spire's shield? I mean, the shield blocks sensors!" When I read that, I laughed. The Spire didn't block sensors(which are completely different from communications and visual feeds running off said lines.), it was the pylon that was blown up in the begining of Tip of the Spear. When he talks about Kat's death, he mentions "Why didn't she turn on her shields?" The answer is, "She couldn't due to the glassing beam/radiation from the beam." You see three Spartans without helms in the cutscene. After putting helms on, you see NONE with shields reactivating. After the beam, they would have.

At one point he talks about ending of LNOS, and from that point on it sounded like he simply hated Spartan IIIs(Or at least Noble Team members). "Six should have handed his pack to Jorge and died there cause Spartan IIs are inferior in EVERY way to Spartan II's." He must forget to notice how Jorge didn't give Six a chance to do anything. Jorge literally went "Let me do this for Reach." *Tosses Six out of window*

Among other little details he blew to epic proportions while making me shake my head was Easter eggs. He took the MC easter egg at the end of the PoA, as CANON EVENT. He made it sound like it was the legendary ending and forces the camera to scroll over (which it doesn't.)


Like said, or tried to imply in my post, whatever good points he may have had were overwhelmed by the bad in his article. I can't even remember what logic I agreed with, and I don't feel like reading the article again 'cause it's too confrontational to enjoy.

Exactly, even if the shielding on the Spire was keeping sensors from really getting in I doubt it could stop something from coming out.
Or when he was talking about how Noble Team act like idiots in gameplay, that point is entirely in error, the gameplay AI is not canon, if that were the case then the Elites would be complete morons, because they're just about as bad as the UNSC friendlies when you fight alongside them in Halo 2 and 3. Or his complaints about Tip of the Spear, he knows nothing of military strategy, sometimes the best option is to do a Zurg Rush on the enemy position, and that's not entirely what the UNSC forces were doing, if you watch carefully you can see quite a few vehicles splitting off, not just your group, and going off to complete other objectives.

And about the Nightfall mission, Kate pulled her teams back, given the vast expanse of the "Dark Zone" her forces would not be the only recon teams out there reconning the Covenant. And not to mention we don't know what sort of things the other members of her team found, there was plenty of recon going on despite the claims made in the article.

That was the most outrageous of them all, it's a bloody easter egg! It's not something that it automatically shows you, it's something you have to find yourself, much like any of the other easter eggs in Halo, you have to find them. The only difference between this one and all the others is that it's in a cut-scene rather than in gameplay.

Given all the outrageous and ill backed up claims made, I would have to conclude that he does not really know much about military ops. Granted I don't really know much about the actual thing either, but I've read plenty of fiction detailing military engagements and what goes on to prepare for them, so I have enough knowledge to help my common sense out. Reading far too much into a story, and hyper-analyzing it will inevitably lead you to discover "faults" with it, even in something very well written like Lord of the Rings or Moby Dick, or hell even in movies like the Terminator series or Indiana Jones.

  • 02.10.2011 6:00 PM PDT

Someone probably already mentioned this, but in First Strike it is stated that ONI has a bad habit of ignoring the Cole Protocol, like jumping straight to Earth to deliver a briefing on what happened at Reach.

  • 02.10.2011 6:10 PM PDT

@accordingto343

Your one stop shop for all of 343's fabulous errors and ridiculous notions in the Halo lore.

It wouldn't have mattered if Jorge made Six arm the bomb on the Ardent Prayer, Jorge didn't have a re-entry pack.

  • 02.10.2011 6:22 PM PDT

'life is a stare down with death himself'

one: the novels are only semi-cannon
two: reach only had 15 orbital defense platforms
three: carter, kat, and jun were seperated out of the main group of SIIIs before PROMETHEUS.
jorge is a SII, he would of suvived.

[Edited on 02.10.2011 6:36 PM PST]

  • 02.10.2011 6:35 PM PDT

@accordingto343

Your one stop shop for all of 343's fabulous errors and ridiculous notions in the Halo lore.

Posted by: sa7anicBarracuda
jorge is a SII, he would of suvived.

No he wouldn't. Chief probably survived because he had better armor and used a piece of Truth's ship as a heat shield. Jorge had none of that.

  • 02.10.2011 6:39 PM PDT


Posted by: DecepticonCobra
It wouldn't have mattered if Jorge made Six arm the bomb on the Ardent Prayer, Jorge didn't have a re-entry pack.


The guy said Jorge would make Six hand over his re-entry pack.

  • 02.10.2011 6:51 PM PDT

@accordingto343

Your one stop shop for all of 343's fabulous errors and ridiculous notions in the Halo lore.

Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron

Posted by: DecepticonCobra
It wouldn't have mattered if Jorge made Six arm the bomb on the Ardent Prayer, Jorge didn't have a re-entry pack.


The guy said Jorge would make Six hand over his re-entry pack.

Then he really doesn't know Spartans does he? Last time I checked Spartans don't have huge egos.

  • 02.10.2011 6:55 PM PDT


Posted by: DecepticonCobra
Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron

Posted by: DecepticonCobra
It wouldn't have mattered if Jorge made Six arm the bomb on the Ardent Prayer, Jorge didn't have a re-entry pack.


The guy said Jorge would make Six hand over his re-entry pack.

Then he really doesn't know Spartans does he? Last time I checked Spartans don't have huge egos.


Haha yeah, that would be out of character for a Spartan, that's something everyone can agree on, a Spartan wouldn't have such a huge ego that he'd steal his partner's equipment to save his own skin and leave said teammate to die.

  • 02.10.2011 7:00 PM PDT

If you can read this, that means I'm not a Shaolin monk...

yet.


Posted by: DecepticonCobra
Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron

Posted by: DecepticonCobra
It wouldn't have mattered if Jorge made Six arm the bomb on the Ardent Prayer, Jorge didn't have a re-entry pack.


The guy said Jorge would make Six hand over his re-entry pack.

Then he really doesn't know Spartans does he? Last time I checked Spartans don't have huge egos.

They are thought to "love to fight another day".

Geeze.

  • 02.10.2011 11:44 PM PDT


Posted by: TheGreenAlloy

Posted by: DecepticonCobra
Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron

Posted by: DecepticonCobra
It wouldn't have mattered if Jorge made Six arm the bomb on the Ardent Prayer, Jorge didn't have a re-entry pack.


The guy said Jorge would make Six hand over his re-entry pack.

Then he really doesn't know Spartans does he? Last time I checked Spartans don't have huge egos.

They are thought to "love to fight another day".

Geeze.


No Spartan thus far would take another's gear and leave them to die unless there was no way for that person to make it out alive.

Such as Sam(I believe.) His suit was damaged, and wouldn't last at all in space. He's the only Spartan that was left to die, simply because he volunteered to defend the missiles and that he couldn't get out of there.

  • 02.11.2011 12:25 AM PDT

Spartans never die... they just revert to last checkpoint.

It's a work of fiction. Pick a story and go with it.

  • 02.12.2011 7:41 PM PDT

Signatures are for squares.

I'm still curious as to WHY this thread was locked in the first place. Thanks to the Ninja who unlocked it.

  • 02.12.2011 7:51 PM PDT


Posted by: privet caboose
I'm still curious as to WHY this thread was locked in the first place. Thanks to the Ninja who unlocked it.


Yeah, I can't think of any rules or anything that it violates.
Yes, thank you unknown ninja, now we may continue our debates :P I love this thread, even if I don't agree with everybody in it.

  • 02.12.2011 8:07 PM PDT

Don't worry, you're still your mom's favorite Bnet member.

Yeah, I was wondering why it was locked as well.

  • 02.12.2011 8:15 PM PDT


Posted by: MegaMuffin16
Yeah, I was wondering why it was locked as well.


I think all regulars of this thread are/were.

  • 02.12.2011 8:36 PM PDT

MJB

Christ when are people going to accept the simple fact that Halo: Reach in terms of canon completely trumps The Fall of Reach. every other book, short movie, animation episode and game trumps TFoR, only the advertising campaigns like landfall and birth of a spartan are ranked lower in canon hierarchy. it is near rock bottom in terms of the truth.

END OF STORY PEOPLE

  • 02.12.2011 9:02 PM PDT


Posted by: Apocalypse 1313
It's a work of fiction. Pick a story and go with it.


Which is why I say Halo: Reach is an alternate reality. In one reality you have TFoR as Canon, in another reality, Halo: Reach is Canon.

  • 02.13.2011 7:39 AM PDT


Posted by: MAXPWN197
Christ when are people going to accept the simple fact that Halo: Reach in terms of canon completely trumps The Fall of Reach. every other book, short movie, animation episode and game trumps TFoR, only the advertising campaigns like landfall and birth of a spartan are ranked lower in canon hierarchy. it is near rock bottom in terms of the truth.

END OF STORY PEOPLE


Nope. Not at all. Halo: Reach is an alternate reality.

END OF STORY PEOPLE

  • 02.13.2011 7:43 AM PDT