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  • Subject: Unexplainable errors in the Halo canon. (Spoilers)
Subject: Unexplainable errors in the Halo canon. (Spoilers)

GROSSMAN: Do you think of the Culture as a utopia? Would you live in it, if you could?

BANKS: Good grief yes, to both! What's not to like? ...Well, unless you're actually a fascist or a power junkie or sincerely believe that money rather than happiness is what really matters in life. And even people with those bizarre beliefs are catered for in the Culture, albeit in extreme-immersion VR environments.

KOTOR

Posted by: chickenlittle
I forget where, but I'm certain one of the novels had a quote about what is necessary for successful Slipspace travel. Aerodynamics is a minor role, as there is no atmosphere in space. Shape only matters if it affects the structural integrity of the vessel. That only leaves mass as the biggest factor. As for those Banshees, environment sealing isn't going to do a whole lot to give it more mass. More importantly, where would they fit the Slipspace drive on board the things?


Maybe they slingshot them into Slipspace using the surgical[1] slipspace drives the covenant have. Using larger ships as catapults makes sense, and doesn't require Bungie to shoehorn in a crappy reason why the Banshees can.

A more in-depth explanation of my thoughts:

The Modified Banshees have pods on their wings, like the ones in Halo Wars, so we can assume that they are high power energy weapons, so the Banshee will have to have had an increased output power supply, not only to fire the cannons, but to also provide Life Support for the pilot.

We know nothing of Forerunner/Covenant Slipspace drives, maybe they can be compressed in to a small space, so as to be portable. If the small Slipspace Drive can be fitted on to a Banshee instead of the Banshee Bomb launcher, which is not used[2] in LNoS, then maybe the power supply could generate enough power for a short range jump of one, maybe two Astronomical Units, so that the Pilots can disengage from whatever it is they're doing and investigate a disturbance that doesn't require a Corvette or larger ship.

This opens up the questions: "Why weren't the Slipspace enabled Banshees used Prior to Reach?" and "What's wrong with sending a few Seraphs?"

First Question: The Banshees are just being tested, or more likely, being "run into the Ground" as the newer and better Seraphs are being used. For the second theory to work, you have to understand that the Covenant is big, therefore it will take time to teach new Pilots (Engineers not so much,) and to produce and distribute the Seraphs around the entire Covenant Armada. The fleet that attacked Reach is one of the last to receive the new Seraphs, and they are sending their Space Capable Banshees out to be destroyed.

Question 2: Using the last sentence from the previous question as an example, and some knowledge, we can answer this. Everything in the Covenant is dominated by one thing: Power, and the acquirement of it. If you are a low rank, you have to listen to and obey your superiors, even if it means going to a certain death. From this we can infer that the Banshee Pilots are redundant due to the Seraphs and their pilots being more combat effective, and the Banshee Pilots are being sent as cannon fodder, much like Unggoy are in ground engagements. Seraphs are more valuable to this particular fleet commander, as he may have just received them, and does not want them damaged unless necessary.

I only find one problem with this, in that Seraphs are not "new," and the only way to get around this is to say that the Fleet attacking Reach has only just received it's Seraph complement, but this idea is debunked almost instantly by the fact that the flagship is one of the largest Covenant Vessels.

Bear in mind these are the ramblings of an insomniac...

[1]: I don't recall where, but the Covenant do not "tear" a hole in SF space, but cut one with almost scalpel like precision.

[2]: Correct me if I'm wrong, it's just I didn't see any Banshee Bombs.

Also, if you don't know what SF space is, read you lore some more.


Orphius

  • 02.18.2011 8:33 AM PDT

Posted By chickenlittle
The UNSC only won the victories they did because they had either superior numbers or a vastly better strategy(much rarer). The Covenant were better to an extent. That does not make them invincible, as you seem to be having trouble understanding.


I fully understand that the Covenant are not invincible, I just think the books I've read so far portray the Covenant tech in a very conflicting way. They show one Covenant ship pretty much ass -blam!- several UNSC ships back to back, and yet the Covies still lose. What I'm trying to say, is that the way the Covenant are portrayed in the books, the ease with which they destroy UNSC ships, they should not have ever been beaten.

Sorry, that wasn't clear at all. Capital ships don't waste plasma torpedoes on single ships; they're for other capital ships. They use their pulse lasers for single ships. You see the corvette using these pulse lasers, trying to shoot the player and other Sabres out of space. Therefore, there is no reason not to put in the plasma torpedoes; instead, they sat around playing Minesweeper.

Now that I get what you're saying, why should they have included the heavier weaponry if it's not going to be shooting at you? It just wastes game memory and space, even if they can hurt you. If it was a larger battle, then they probably would have been included, but why waste space on an event that, depending on your skill and the difficulty level, takes all of about five minutes?

I forget where, but I'm certain one of the novels had a quote about what is necessary for successful Slipspace travel. Aerodynamics is a minor role, as there is no atmosphere in space. Shape only matters if it affects the structural integrity of the vessel. That only leaves mass as the biggest factor. As for those Banshees, environment sealing isn't going to do a whole lot to give it more mass. More importantly, where would they fit the Slipspace drive on board the things?

Yes, it is a minor role, hence why the UNSC ships can be more blocky looking and not be ripped apart by friction, which as you said, does not really exist in space. But I don't think the whole tuning fork design of the Spirit would hold up well in the force of the transition from Slipspace to normal space.

I think what it sounds like you're looking for would be in First Strike, that where I remember the issue coming up. As for the issue of the Space Banshees, I wasn't saying environmentally sealing them would add mass, I was saying they looked more beefed up in addition to being environmentally sealed, sorry if I wasn't clear in what I was trying to say.

  • 02.18.2011 9:03 AM PDT


Posted by: Beowolfe

Posted by: OrderedComa

You and Caboose can throw all the quotes and sources you want at me, but it's not going to change my opinion on the matter. I agree that the Covenant should be powerful and should win most of the time, but I do not think the books portray this in a good way, it feels completely illogical, almost stupid, because the way things are described the UNSC should not have had any wins whatsoever.


And that there, is your opinion, and a twisted one at that. If the novels is the source that gave the 3:1 ratio of UNSC vs Covenant, and yet the novels also say that the UNSC did indeed have minor victories, then I don't see why there's any question whether the UNSC should have won battles or not, because they did, simply with superior numbers.

And again, as I've repeated several times and yet you seemed to simply ignore, the Covenant SHOULD be that strong. The way you go at this, you may as well claim that fire doesn't burn paper.

Seriously, explain why the UNSC wouldn't have won any battles if the novel descriptions of the Covenant were true.

*edited to make clear that I'm referring to UNSC vs Covenant overall, not the Battle of Reach.


Ah, Beowolfe, my old freinemy, not surprised to see this issue bring you back out :P

In answer to your post, I sorta answered it in my post to chickenlittle, so see there for answer.

  • 02.18.2011 9:07 AM PDT


Posted by: Orphius_Rex
Posted by: chickenlittle
I forget where, but I'm certain one of the novels had a quote about what is necessary for successful Slipspace travel. Aerodynamics is a minor role, as there is no atmosphere in space. Shape only matters if it affects the structural integrity of the vessel. That only leaves mass as the biggest factor. As for those Banshees, environment sealing isn't going to do a whole lot to give it more mass. More importantly, where would they fit the Slipspace drive on board the things?


Maybe they slingshot them into Slipspace using the surgical[1] slipspace drives the covenant have. Using larger ships as catapults makes sense, and doesn't require Bungie to shoehorn in a crappy reason why the Banshees can.

A more in-depth explanation of my thoughts:

The Modified Banshees have pods on their wings, like the ones in Halo Wars, so we can assume that they are high power energy weapons, so the Banshee will have to have had an increased output power supply, not only to fire the cannons, but to also provide Life Support for the pilot.

We know nothing of Forerunner/Covenant Slipspace drives, maybe they can be compressed in to a small space, so as to be portable. If the small Slipspace Drive can be fitted on to a Banshee instead of the Banshee Bomb launcher, which is not used[2] in LNoS, then maybe the power supply could generate enough power for a short range jump of one, maybe two Astronomical Units, so that the Pilots can disengage from whatever it is they're doing and investigate a disturbance that doesn't require a Corvette or larger ship.

This opens up the questions: "Why weren't the Slipspace enabled Banshees used Prior to Reach?" and "What's wrong with sending a few Seraphs?"

First Question: The Banshees are just being tested, or more likely, being "run into the Ground" as the newer and better Seraphs are being used. For the second theory to work, you have to understand that the Covenant is big, therefore it will take time to teach new Pilots (Engineers not so much,) and to produce and distribute the Seraphs around the entire Covenant Armada. The fleet that attacked Reach is one of the last to receive the new Seraphs, and they are sending their Space Capable Banshees out to be destroyed.

Question 2: Using the last sentence from the previous question as an example, and some knowledge, we can answer this. Everything in the Covenant is dominated by one thing: Power, and the acquirement of it. If you are a low rank, you have to listen to and obey your superiors, even if it means going to a certain death. From this we can infer that the Banshee Pilots are redundant due to the Seraphs and their pilots being more combat effective, and the Banshee Pilots are being sent as cannon fodder, much like Unggoy are in ground engagements. Seraphs are more valuable to this particular fleet commander, as he may have just received them, and does not want them damaged unless necessary.

I only find one problem with this, in that Seraphs are not "new," and the only way to get around this is to say that the Fleet attacking Reach has only just received it's Seraph complement, but this idea is debunked almost instantly by the fact that the flagship is one of the largest Covenant Vessels.

Bear in mind these are the ramblings of an insomniac...

[1]: I don't recall where, but the Covenant do not "tear" a hole in SF space, but cut one with almost scalpel like precision.

[2]: Correct me if I'm wrong, it's just I didn't see any Banshee Bombs.

Also, if you don't know what SF space is, read you lore some more.


Orphius


I'm kinda using your idea and suggestions as a base here, Orphius.

It could be that the Space Banshees serve more as fighter support for the Seraphs, just like the latter sometime serve a support role to Phantoms. The Banshees are slightly faster and a little more nimble than the Seraphs, so this could a viable possibility, plus it's one more type of fighter you can field.

And the Covie capitol ships "catapulting" the smaller ones somehow makes sense. I really like the idea of the micro Slipsapce drive for short jumps like in Reach would make sense to, that way you can send fighter support ahead of your battle group to try and soften up the defense a bit before you arrive, or to get the enemy fighters distracted so that you can arrive and not have them instantly jumping all over you even if you have the element of surprise.

  • 02.18.2011 9:18 AM PDT

Signatures are for squares.

Posted by: OrderedComa
Posted By chickenlittle
The UNSC only won the victories they did because they had either superior numbers or a vastly better strategy(much rarer). The Covenant were better to an extent. That does not make them invincible, as you seem to be having trouble understanding.


I fully understand that the Covenant are not invincible, I just think the books I've read so far portray the Covenant tech in a very conflicting way. They show one Covenant ship pretty much ass -blam!- several UNSC ships back to back, and yet the Covies still lose. What I'm trying to say, is that the way the Covenant are portrayed in the books, the ease with which they destroy UNSC ships, they should not have ever been beaten.


The Covenant was completely kicking our asses. The only reason we even won is because of a few major decisive victories. (Cole wiping out hundreds of ships in one battle, Spartan III's taking out high value targets on suicide missions, Operation FIRST STRIKE[500+ ships was a huge blow], And then, Whitcombs Nova Bomb obliterated half the Covenant ships.)

But even with all those victories the only thing that saved humanity from extinction was the Covenant Civil War. Nearly all of Truths Fleet was at Delta Halo. When the Elites split off, the Brute ships and the Elite ships fought each other, and pretty much wiped eachother out. The elites came to our aid, and only with their additional ships were we able to stand against the small remnants of the Covenant army.

  • 02.18.2011 12:29 PM PDT

Posted by: privet caboose
But even with all those victories the only thing that saved humanity from extinction was the Covenant Civil War. Nearly all of Truths Fleet was at Delta Halo. When the Elites split off, the Brute ships and the Elite ships fought each other, and pretty much wiped eachother out. The elites came to our aid, and only with their additional ships were we able to stand against the small remnants of the Covenant army.

See, I still don't like this ending. Humanity was merely years, maybe months, from being wiped out, and suddenly comes back to win in the end. I still agree with Halsey in Ghosts of Onyx, that "Humanity can't win this war...only survive it.".

  • 02.18.2011 12:57 PM PDT

Posted by: Orphius_RexIn TFoR, several capital ships make short Slipspace jumps to get close enough to the Super-MACs and take them out. This left them completely without power for a bit of time. Since an entire capital ship couldn't stay powered, how would a single-ship?

Unless I'm misunderstanding, in which you simply meant dropping the Banshees out while the capital ships are in Slipspace. I'm not certain this would work properly, as it would be extremely close to the atmosphere, and even the Covenant's precise navigation might not solve that issue.

It is possible that the Covenant was able to attach smaller models of Slipspace drives on, but that would require an exceptional amount of power, and it still doesn't solve the mass issue. A Banshee, however beefed up, is still smaller than a Spirit.

I'd respond to the outdated fighter thing, but you debunked that yourself, since the Seraphs have always been used.

1. That's correct. The Covenant "slip" into Slipspace, and exit the same way, whereas the human-built Shaw-Fujikawa drive "tears" a hole in Slipspace.

2. True, I didn't see any used either. Actually, I don't think the banshees ever actually fired at me either. Actually(again), I didn't see any Banshees fire once, despite playing that level a dozen times.

  • 02.18.2011 1:07 PM PDT

Posted by: OrderedComa
Posted By chickenlittle
The UNSC only won the victories they did because they had either superior numbers or a vastly better strategy(much rarer). The Covenant were better to an extent. That does not make them invincible, as you seem to be having trouble understanding.


I fully understand that the Covenant are not invincible, I just think the books I've read so far portray the Covenant tech in a very conflicting way. They show one Covenant ship pretty much ass -blam!- several UNSC ships back to back, and yet the Covies still lose. What I'm trying to say, is that the way the Covenant are portrayed in the books, the ease with which they destroy UNSC ships, they should not have ever been beaten.
I think I see what you're saying here. You mean, how did humanity win in the end? That would be because of the Covenant Civil War, as caboose stated above this post. I still don't like that, as humanity would still have been trampled.

Sorry, that wasn't clear at all. Capital ships don't waste plasma torpedoes on single ships; they're for other capital ships. They use their pulse lasers for single ships. You see the corvette using these pulse lasers, trying to shoot the player and other Sabres out of space. Therefore, there is no reason not to put in the plasma torpedoes; instead, they sat around playing Minesweeper.

Now that I get what you're saying, why should they have included the heavier weaponry if it's not going to be shooting at you? It just wastes game memory and space, even if they can hurt you. If it was a larger battle, then they probably would have been included, but why waste space on an event that, depending on your skill and the difficulty level, takes all of about five minutes?
Well, considering how short and uneventful the Campaign is, they damn well should have spent that extra memory on it. It's not like they didn't have room for it. Pushing the system a little bit more is well worth a bit of immersion. Especially in Reach's case, what with it not being immersing at the slightest.

I forget where, but I'm certain one of the novels had a quote about what is necessary for successful Slipspace travel. Aerodynamics is a minor role, as there is no atmosphere in space. Shape only matters if it affects the structural integrity of the vessel. That only leaves mass as the biggest factor. As for those Banshees, environment sealing isn't going to do a whole lot to give it more mass. More importantly, where would they fit the Slipspace drive on board the things?

Yes, it is a minor role, hence why the UNSC ships can be more blocky looking and not be ripped apart by friction, which as you said, does not really exist in space. But I don't think the whole tuning fork design of the Spirit would hold up well in the force of the transition from Slipspace to normal space.
The design is a possible design flaw, however, it does have that plasma stabilizer between the forks. I'm not sure how well that would protect it, but from the novel, it seems not much.

I think what it sounds like you're looking for would be in First Strike, that where I remember the issue coming up. As for the issue of the Space Banshees, I wasn't saying environmentally sealing them would add mass, I was saying they looked more beefed up in addition to being environmentally sealed, sorry if I wasn't clear in what I was trying to say.Still smaller than a Spirit, and they have the wings that are barely attached which should have broken off.

  • 02.18.2011 1:13 PM PDT


Posted by: privet caboose
Posted by: OrderedComa
Posted By chickenlittle
The UNSC only won the victories they did because they had either superior numbers or a vastly better strategy(much rarer). The Covenant were better to an extent. That does not make them invincible, as you seem to be having trouble understanding.


I fully understand that the Covenant are not invincible, I just think the books I've read so far portray the Covenant tech in a very conflicting way. They show one Covenant ship pretty much ass -blam!- several UNSC ships back to back, and yet the Covies still lose. What I'm trying to say, is that the way the Covenant are portrayed in the books, the ease with which they destroy UNSC ships, they should not have ever been beaten.


The Covenant was completely kicking our asses. The only reason we even won is because of a few major decisive victories. (Cole wiping out hundreds of ships in one battle, Spartan III's taking out high value targets on suicide missions, Operation FIRST STRIKE[500+ ships was a huge blow], And then, Whitcombs Nova Bomb obliterated half the Covenant ships.)

But even with all those victories the only thing that saved humanity from extinction was the Covenant Civil War. Nearly all of Truths Fleet was at Delta Halo. When the Elites split off, the Brute ships and the Elite ships fought each other, and pretty much wiped eachother out. The elites came to our aid, and only with their additional ships were we able to stand against the small remnants of the Covenant army.



I agree in principle with you and the books, that the Covenant are very powerful and would inevitably win in the end, I just think it does a horrible job in its portrayal of them. The way the books do things, there should not have been any human victories at all. And the Nova Bomb can almost be considered friendly fire, it would not have made a difference if it never happened as the Sangheili were pretty much just about to become the UNSC's allies for the final stage of the war, they were Seperatists, not Loyalists, granted they were still fighting us, but that fleet's destruction didn't serve any purpose in furthering the war.

  • 02.18.2011 1:50 PM PDT

Posted By: chickenlittle
Well, considering how short and uneventful the Campaign is, they damn well should have spent that extra memory on it. It's not like they didn't have room for it. Pushing the system a little bit more is well worth a bit of immersion. Especially in Reach's case, what with it not being immersing at the slightest.


Meh, I disagree, but hey, that's what opinions are for :P
I feel almost the exact opposite about Reach's story.

The design is a possible design flaw, however, it does have that plasma stabilizer between the forks. I'm not sure how well that would protect it, but from the novel, it seems not much.

Is that what that blue thing is? I always thought it was for carrying things like Ghosts and Wraiths, or so I'd heard. I think the Spirit's lack of Slipspace compatibility lies in it's design, since it and the Phantom are almost the same size.

Still smaller than a Spirit, and they have the wings that are barely attached which should have broken off.

I'm still not entirely convinced that mass has much to do with it, like for instance in GoO the UNSC developed some sort of Slipspace capable "ODST" pod for the SIIIs, if I remember correctly, and that would just about the same size, if not smaller than a Banshee. And the wings on the Space Banshee are much more solid than their atmo based counterparts, actually.

[Edited on 02.18.2011 2:20 PM PST]

  • 02.18.2011 2:18 PM PDT

Signatures are for squares.

Posted by: OrderedComa

I agree in principle with you and the books, that the Covenant are very powerful and would inevitably win in the end, I just think it does a horrible job in its portrayal of them. The way the books do things, there should not have been any human victories at all. And the Nova Bomb can almost be considered friendly fire, it would not have made a difference if it never happened as the Sangheili were pretty much just about to become the UNSC's allies for the final stage of the war, they were Seperatists, not Loyalists, granted they were still fighting us, but that fleet's destruction didn't serve any purpose in furthering the war.


Had it not been for the Nova it's very possible the Elites wouldn't of sided with us. The fact that they lost more than half of their ships is what I believe led to their alliance with us. They needed us as much as we needed them. We were both running low and ships and we shared a mutual enemy.

From the way Imperial Admiral Xytan 'Jar Wattinree was talking in his final meeting, he seemed to want to destroy both Humanity AND the Loyalists. Something he could've easily accomplished with his massive Fleet. His death allowed Rtas' to be put in charge, and being he was close with the Arbiter, this allowed an alliance to form.

  • 02.18.2011 2:48 PM PDT


Posted by: privet caboose
Posted by: OrderedComa

I agree in principle with you and the books, that the Covenant are very powerful and would inevitably win in the end, I just think it does a horrible job in its portrayal of them. The way the books do things, there should not have been any human victories at all. And the Nova Bomb can almost be considered friendly fire, it would not have made a difference if it never happened as the Sangheili were pretty much just about to become the UNSC's allies for the final stage of the war, they were Seperatists, not Loyalists, granted they were still fighting us, but that fleet's destruction didn't serve any purpose in furthering the war.


Had it not been for the Nova it's very possible the Elites wouldn't of sided with us. The fact that they lost more than half of their ships is what I believe led to their alliance with us. They needed us as much as we needed them. We were both running low and ships and we shared a mutual enemy.

From the way Imperial Admiral Xytan 'Jar Wattinree was talking in his final meeting, he seemed to want to destroy both Humanity AND the Loyalists. Something he could've easily accomplished with his massive Fleet. His death allowed Rtas' to be put in charge, and being he was close with the Arbiter, this allowed an alliance to form.


This is an area I'm blank at, but where does it talk about the Elite's running low on ships or Rtas being leader? The way I took it was Rtas lead a fleet, where that Imperial Admiral was one of the fleet-masters who still wanted to kill humanity(But not all of the leaders had that viewpoint as well.)

  • 02.18.2011 2:56 PM PDT

Signatures are for squares.

Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron

Posted by: privet caboose
Posted by: OrderedComa

I agree in principle with you and the books, that the Covenant are very powerful and would inevitably win in the end, I just think it does a horrible job in its portrayal of them. The way the books do things, there should not have been any human victories at all. And the Nova Bomb can almost be considered friendly fire, it would not have made a difference if it never happened as the Sangheili were pretty much just about to become the UNSC's allies for the final stage of the war, they were Seperatists, not Loyalists, granted they were still fighting us, but that fleet's destruction didn't serve any purpose in furthering the war.


Had it not been for the Nova it's very possible the Elites wouldn't of sided with us. The fact that they lost more than half of their ships is what I believe led to their alliance with us. They needed us as much as we needed them. We were both running low and ships and we shared a mutual enemy.

From the way Imperial Admiral Xytan 'Jar Wattinree was talking in his final meeting, he seemed to want to destroy both Humanity AND the Loyalists. Something he could've easily accomplished with his massive Fleet. His death allowed Rtas' to be put in charge, and being he was close with the Arbiter, this allowed an alliance to form.


This is an area I'm blank at, but where does it talk about the Elite's running low on ships or Rtas being leader? The way I took it was Rtas lead a fleet, where that Imperial Admiral was one of the fleet-masters who still wanted to kill humanity(But not all of the leaders had that viewpoint as well.)


It's never explicitly stated, but based on Halo 3 it appears as if Rtas is the leader of the Separatists.

Also, they're running low on ships as most of their ships were destroyed at Delta Halo. Half the ones they had left were destroyed in the Nova, and they can no longer make new ships for their selves. They had a severely limited number of ships left.

  • 02.18.2011 2:59 PM PDT


Posted by: privet caboose
Posted by: OrderedComa

I agree in principle with you and the books, that the Covenant are very powerful and would inevitably win in the end, I just think it does a horrible job in its portrayal of them. The way the books do things, there should not have been any human victories at all. And the Nova Bomb can almost be considered friendly fire, it would not have made a difference if it never happened as the Sangheili were pretty much just about to become the UNSC's allies for the final stage of the war, they were Seperatists, not Loyalists, granted they were still fighting us, but that fleet's destruction didn't serve any purpose in furthering the war.


Had it not been for the Nova it's very possible the Elites wouldn't of sided with us. The fact that they lost more than half of their ships is what I believe led to their alliance with us. They needed us as much as we needed them. We were both running low and ships and we shared a mutual enemy.

From the way Imperial Admiral Xytan 'Jar Wattinree was talking in his final meeting, he seemed to want to destroy both Humanity AND the Loyalists. Something he could've easily accomplished with his massive Fleet. His death allowed Rtas' to be put in charge, and being he was close with the Arbiter, this allowed an alliance to form.


I disagree, I think the alliance was inevitable at that point, especially considering how the Sangheili viewed the Arbiter, and how he very much respected Humanity. Any of the other Elites, regardless of position, would respect the advice of the Arbiter.

At that point they didn't know much about the Prophet's lies, only that they were betrayed by the Prophets and replaced with the Brutes. And I never got the impression that Half-Jaw was the man in charge, it seemed to me that he was merely in charge of the Fleet of Retribution and it was sent after the one Flood Ship that broke through the quarantine zone of Delta Halo.

  • 02.18.2011 3:31 PM PDT
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CoD is a good game, even if the Halo series are better in some aspects. Anyone who insults either is just bad in that game. Grow up.


Posted by: OrderedComa

Posted by: Beowolfe

Posted by: OrderedComa

You and Caboose can throw all the quotes and sources you want at me, but it's not going to change my opinion on the matter. I agree that the Covenant should be powerful and should win most of the time, but I do not think the books portray this in a good way, it feels completely illogical, almost stupid, because the way things are described the UNSC should not have had any wins whatsoever.


And that there, is your opinion, and a twisted one at that. If the novels is the source that gave the 3:1 ratio of UNSC vs Covenant, and yet the novels also say that the UNSC did indeed have minor victories, then I don't see why there's any question whether the UNSC should have won battles or not, because they did, simply with superior numbers.

And again, as I've repeated several times and yet you seemed to simply ignore, the Covenant SHOULD be that strong. The way you go at this, you may as well claim that fire doesn't burn paper.

Seriously, explain why the UNSC wouldn't have won any battles if the novel descriptions of the Covenant were true.

*edited to make clear that I'm referring to UNSC vs Covenant overall, not the Battle of Reach.


Ah, Beowolfe, my old freinemy, not surprised to see this issue bring you back out :P

In answer to your post, I sorta answered it in my post to chickenlittle, so see there for answer.

The problem with what you say is that you drastically underestimate the power of the Covenant fleet at Reach, as I'm assuming that you are referring to the Super-Cruiser that wiped out multiple UNSC ships with its energy projector.

I'm not saying that you think the Covenant fleet at Reach is weak, what I'm saying is that the fleet consisted some of the best ships that the Covenant has to offer, some equipped with technologies rarely been used against the UNSC before. I have personally not read the stories about Cole, but I would assume that the most of the engagements the UNSC won were against "normal" Covenant ships, not the vastly superior ones deployed to Reach, and thus, the UNSC can still win with superior numbers.

As well, you must take into consideration that at the time when the novel is written, it was the sole source of backstory, and it makes complete sense. The problem occurs when you add new things without changing the old, and that's basically what happened with the re-print of TFoR. (This is assuming that there has been examples of ships like the Super-cruiser in other engagements, if not, then the info itself is fine)

  • 02.18.2011 3:41 PM PDT


Posted by: Beowolfe

Posted by: OrderedComa

Posted by: Beowolfe

Posted by: OrderedComa

You and Caboose can throw all the quotes and sources you want at me, but it's not going to change my opinion on the matter. I agree that the Covenant should be powerful and should win most of the time, but I do not think the books portray this in a good way, it feels completely illogical, almost stupid, because the way things are described the UNSC should not have had any wins whatsoever.


And that there, is your opinion, and a twisted one at that. If the novels is the source that gave the 3:1 ratio of UNSC vs Covenant, and yet the novels also say that the UNSC did indeed have minor victories, then I don't see why there's any question whether the UNSC should have won battles or not, because they did, simply with superior numbers.

And again, as I've repeated several times and yet you seemed to simply ignore, the Covenant SHOULD be that strong. The way you go at this, you may as well claim that fire doesn't burn paper.

Seriously, explain why the UNSC wouldn't have won any battles if the novel descriptions of the Covenant were true.

*edited to make clear that I'm referring to UNSC vs Covenant overall, not the Battle of Reach.


Ah, Beowolfe, my old freinemy, not surprised to see this issue bring you back out :P

In answer to your post, I sorta answered it in my post to chickenlittle, so see there for answer.

The problem with what you say is that you drastically underestimate the power of the Covenant fleet at Reach, as I'm assuming that you are referring to the Super-Cruiser that wiped out multiple UNSC ships with its energy projector.

I'm not saying that you think the Covenant fleet at Reach is weak, what I'm saying is that the fleet consisted some of the best ships that the Covenant has to offer, some equipped with technologies rarely been used against the UNSC before. I have personally not read the stories about Cole, but I would assume that the most of the engagements the UNSC won were against "normal" Covenant ships, not the vastly superior ones deployed to Reach, and thus, the UNSC can still win with superior numbers.

As well, you must take into consideration that at the time when the novel is written, it was the sole source of backstory, and it makes complete sense. The problem occurs when you add new things without changing the old, and that's basically what happened with the re-print of TFoR. (This is assuming that there has been examples of ships like the Super-cruiser in other engagements, if not, then the info itself is fine)


I actually wasn't talking about anything specific, just the Covenant in general when I made the comments about what I regard as the poor portrayal of their power. Frankly I don't think either the games or the books are a fair portrayal of the Covies, granted I lean a little closer to the games in this regard, but both are flawed portrayals imo.

  • 02.18.2011 6:42 PM PDT

It's interesting to see how Bungie has changed in all these years with the Halo canon. Pretty much like this:

Before Halo 3: There are certain inconsistencies (like the number of Spartans), however, in the end, everything will make sense.

After Halo 3: It's not like we like to do this, but new canon destroys the old canon. Still, it's not that bad... not much has changed.

After Halo Reach: IF YOU DON'T READ THE NOVELS, IT ALL MAKES SENSE! (which is ironic, because to me, nothing in the Halo Reach campaign made sense)

  • 02.18.2011 6:43 PM PDT
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CoD is a good game, even if the Halo series are better in some aspects. Anyone who insults either is just bad in that game. Grow up.


Posted by: OrderedComa

Posted by: Beowolfe

Posted by: OrderedComa

Posted by: Beowolfe

Posted by: OrderedComa

You and Caboose can throw all the quotes and sources you want at me, but it's not going to change my opinion on the matter. I agree that the Covenant should be powerful and should win most of the time, but I do not think the books portray this in a good way, it feels completely illogical, almost stupid, because the way things are described the UNSC should not have had any wins whatsoever.


And that there, is your opinion, and a twisted one at that. If the novels is the source that gave the 3:1 ratio of UNSC vs Covenant, and yet the novels also say that the UNSC did indeed have minor victories, then I don't see why there's any question whether the UNSC should have won battles or not, because they did, simply with superior numbers.

And again, as I've repeated several times and yet you seemed to simply ignore, the Covenant SHOULD be that strong. The way you go at this, you may as well claim that fire doesn't burn paper.

Seriously, explain why the UNSC wouldn't have won any battles if the novel descriptions of the Covenant were true.

*edited to make clear that I'm referring to UNSC vs Covenant overall, not the Battle of Reach.


Ah, Beowolfe, my old freinemy, not surprised to see this issue bring you back out :P

In answer to your post, I sorta answered it in my post to chickenlittle, so see there for answer.

The problem with what you say is that you drastically underestimate the power of the Covenant fleet at Reach, as I'm assuming that you are referring to the Super-Cruiser that wiped out multiple UNSC ships with its energy projector.

I'm not saying that you think the Covenant fleet at Reach is weak, what I'm saying is that the fleet consisted some of the best ships that the Covenant has to offer, some equipped with technologies rarely been used against the UNSC before. I have personally not read the stories about Cole, but I would assume that the most of the engagements the UNSC won were against "normal" Covenant ships, not the vastly superior ones deployed to Reach, and thus, the UNSC can still win with superior numbers.

As well, you must take into consideration that at the time when the novel is written, it was the sole source of backstory, and it makes complete sense. The problem occurs when you add new things without changing the old, and that's basically what happened with the re-print of TFoR. (This is assuming that there has been examples of ships like the Super-cruiser in other engagements, if not, then the info itself is fine)


I actually wasn't talking about anything specific, just the Covenant in general when I made the comments about what I regard as the poor portrayal of their power. Frankly I don't think either the games or the books are a fair portrayal of the Covies, granted I lean a little closer to the games in this regard, but both are flawed portrayals imo.


Flawed how? And are you serious? The games are so limited by tech and mechanics that they fail to portray anyone close to what they should be, even the super soldiers. Crysis does a better job at that than any Halo ever did.

  • 02.18.2011 6:46 PM PDT
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---

[Edited on 02.18.2011 7:47 PM PST]

  • 02.18.2011 7:46 PM PDT


Posted by: Beowolfe

Posted by: OrderedComa

I actually wasn't talking about anything specific, just the Covenant in general when I made the comments about what I regard as the poor portrayal of their power. Frankly I don't think either the games or the books are a fair portrayal of the Covies, granted I lean a little closer to the games in this regard, but both are flawed portrayals imo.


Flawed how? And are you serious? The games are so limited by tech and mechanics that they fail to portray anyone close to what they should be, even the super soldiers. Crysis does a better job at that than any Halo ever did.


I essentially already explained how I thought it was flawed, should be near the top of the page.
I've never played Crysis, don't know anything about it.
I know the games are limited in what they can do, but I lean closer to the depiction of things the way the games show them than the books, as I said earlier I am sort of in the middle in regards to the Covenant weaponry, neither the books or the games are perfect, but I feel something a little closer to the games is best.

  • 02.18.2011 8:00 PM PDT
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I believe I have found another error, I apologize is this error has already been noted or explained.

Halo 3 begins on November 17. Master Chief get's to the Arc on November 18. Halo: ODST takes place on October 20th. The Legendary ending of ODST takes place "one month after drop" (November 20).

So, how is Truth still on earth in the legendary ending of ODST; if he's also on the Arc by this time? And when did Johnson have time to talk to Virgil; if he's on the Arc by this time too? AND why was Johnson talking as if the Covenant were still digging up the Arc, if it's 2-3 days after it was dug up?

Maybe I missed something, but these dates just don't add up to me.

[Edited on 02.18.2011 8:22 PM PST]

  • 02.18.2011 8:18 PM PDT

Signatures are for squares.

Posted by: Child0fTheMind
I believe I have found another error, I apologize is this error has already been noted or explained.

Halo 3 takes place on November 17. Halo: ODST takes place on October 20th. The Legendary ending of ODST takes place "one month after drop".

So, how is Truth still on earth in the legendary ending of ODST; three days after the beginning of Halo 3. And when did Johnson have time to talk to Virgil during the events of Halo 3? AND why was Johnson talking as if the Covenant were still digging up the Arc, if it's 3 days after?

Maybe I missed something, but these dates just don't add up to me.


"One month later" isn't an exact date, and there's room for error. I think it's generally accepted that saying "one month later" sounded better than saying, "26 days later" or something.

  • 02.18.2011 8:20 PM PDT
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Posted by: privet caboose
Posted by: Child0fTheMind
I believe I have found another error, I apologize is this error has already been noted or explained.

Halo 3 takes place on November 17. Halo: ODST takes place on October 20th. The Legendary ending of ODST takes place "one month after drop".

So, how is Truth still on earth in the legendary ending of ODST; three days after the beginning of Halo 3. And when did Johnson have time to talk to Virgil during the events of Halo 3? AND why was Johnson talking as if the Covenant were still digging up the Arc, if it's 3 days after?

Maybe I missed something, but these dates just don't add up to me.


"One month later" isn't an exact date, and there's room for error. I think it's generally accepted that saying "one month later" sounded better than saying, "26 days later" or something.


if that's the case, then wouldn't it have been, "approximately one month later"? "one month later" is one month later, it is given as an exact amount... it's not like they were trying to save screen space, otherwise saying "26 days later" would have been shorter than "one month later"...

  • 02.18.2011 8:27 PM PDT
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Also, with all other inconsistencies aside... Jorge himself is an inconsistency...

No Spartan II, other than Kurt, knew of the Spartan III's during the time frame of Reach. Also, Dr. Halsey didn't know of the Spartan III's yet. As far as is known, Jorge was not a "secret Spartan II"... All the Spartan II's were present with Master Chief on the Pillar of Autumn, prior to their drop to Reach; Other than the three too distant to be called back, and the four that were thought dead (Samuel, Kurt, Randall, and Sheila).

This leaves no room for Jorge's death... He had to be with Master Chief on the Pillar of Autumn, or he had to have been blacklisted as being one of the ones that died in Augmentation. Since Dr. Halsey and Jorge interacted frequently, that leaves the latter very implausible.

[Edited on 02.18.2011 8:38 PM PST]

  • 02.18.2011 8:38 PM PDT


Posted by: Child0fTheMind
Also, with all other inconsistencies aside... Jorge himself is an inconsistency...

No Spartan II, other than Kurt, knew of the Spartan III's during the time frame of Reach. Also, Dr. Halsey didn't know of the Spartan III's yet. As far as is known, Jorge was not a "secret Spartan II"... All the Spartan II's were present with Master Chief on the Pillar of Autumn, prior to their drop to Reach; Other than the three too distant to be called back, and the four that were thought dead (Samuel, Kurt, Randall, and Sheila).

This leaves no room for Jorge's death... He had to be with Master Chief on the Pillar of Autumn, or he had to have been blacklisted as being one of the ones that died in Augmentation. Since Dr. Halsey and Jorge interacted frequently, that leaves the latter very implausible.


Number of Spartan isn't really solid. Red team is MIA, and they aren't part of that number.

Halsey didn't know Noble Team was Spartan III's, just that they were Spartans. As for Jorge, the "No Spartan II's know about Spartan III's" is limited. Well, I frankly off the top of my head can't remember where that would be stated, or if it's simply an assumed thing due to the nature of it.

  • 02.18.2011 8:47 PM PDT