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  • Subject: Unexplainable errors in the Halo canon. (Spoilers)
Subject: Unexplainable errors in the Halo canon. (Spoilers)
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Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron
Number of Spartan isn't really solid. Red team is MIA, and they aren't part of that number.

Halsey didn't know Noble Team was Spartan III's, just that they were Spartans. As for Jorge, the "No Spartan II's know about Spartan III's" is limited. Well, I frankly off the top of my head can't remember where that would be stated, or if it's simply an assumed thing due to the nature of it.


The Number of Spartan II's was a solid number of 75... Master Chief specifically states that the remaining Spartan II's, other than the three too far to be recalled, were at the brief on the Pillar of Autumn...

150 canadates
only half trained
=75

-30 who died in augmentation
-12 who became permanently crippled
-1 too wounded for active duty (maria)
-4 who died (samuel, kurt, randall, sheila)
-3 too far away (gray team=adriana, jai, mike)
=25 (the number stated by Master Chief, that was at the brief)

"Clustered around him were two dozen Spartans: Fred, Linda, Joshua, James, and many others he had not spoken to for years..."

2 dozen, plus himself = 25... Thus all Spartan II's are accounted for.


This leaves the only possible placement for Jorge to be either "died in augmentation" or "permenently crippled". Either one being very illogical.

Also, it is specifically stated that Master Chief is the highest ranking Spartan II, until Kurt and ultimately Fred. With Jorge being a warrant officer, this puts him as a higher rank than Master Chief and thus negates the facts.

"No Spartan II's know about the Spartan III's" is not stated, however, it is stated that the Spartan III project is above top secret with only those in the program knowning of the program, this leaves the Spartan II's out of the loop of knowning the Spartan III's. Also, since Dr. Halsey herself does not know of the Spartan III's, her students should have no knownledge of them either, unless they are placed in the program, in which that case they would be declared MIA and their actual status would be kept from those not in the program, including Dr. Halsey.

Since Dr. Halsey is very well aware that Jorge is still alive, it can be assumed that Jorge is not being kept a secret by ONI, which would indicate that Jorge is not part of the Spartan III program, but being that he is aware that is comrades are Spartan III's, this would indicate that he is in the program (in the same sense as Kurt being in the program), and yet his status is not being kept a secret by ONI, being that Dr. Halsey is aware of his status... And thus it continues to loop... It does not make logical sense without illogical explanations, which should not be necessary.

Just because one can come up with an off the wall explanation, does not mean that the inconsistency has been resolved...

One could say that all the 30 spartans that died in augmentation never did die, and instead were used for other projects, thus explaining all the Spartans from Halo: Legends... However, this does not make the assumption true, it does not stop it from being a inconsistency. Only once the makers themselves publish an answer, does the inconsistency cease.

  • 02.18.2011 9:29 PM PDT
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CoD is a good game, even if the Halo series are better in some aspects. Anyone who insults either is just bad in that game. Grow up.


Posted by: OrderedComa

Posted by: Beowolfe

Posted by: OrderedComa

I actually wasn't talking about anything specific, just the Covenant in general when I made the comments about what I regard as the poor portrayal of their power. Frankly I don't think either the games or the books are a fair portrayal of the Covies, granted I lean a little closer to the games in this regard, but both are flawed portrayals imo.


Flawed how? And are you serious? The games are so limited by tech and mechanics that they fail to portray anyone close to what they should be, even the super soldiers. Crysis does a better job at that than any Halo ever did.


I essentially already explained how I thought it was flawed, should be near the top of the page.
I've never played Crysis, don't know anything about it.
I know the games are limited in what they can do, but I lean closer to the depiction of things the way the games show them than the books, as I said earlier I am sort of in the middle in regards to the Covenant weaponry, neither the books or the games are perfect, but I feel something a little closer to the games is best.

Read the entire page, do not see any points that I or someone else has not countered (repeatedly, actually), and it was based on your opinion, as it should be. Still, I don't see how you can use that in argument.
Crysis, or rather, Crysis 2, will be the Halo-killer, to quote the developers. Now, I don't completely agree with that statement myself, but that just shows you the scale of quality that we're talking about. From what I know about Crysis and what little I've seen about Crysis 2, I can tell you that they were successful in making the super-soldiers actually "special".
As we've gone over a million times, siding with the games is basically choosing a watered-down version of the story/universe. The novels had to make sense, the games could not afford to be limited as much by logic because they had to accommodate gameplay. However,the novels have far more weight when it comes to descriptions on how things work, simply because they're actually explained with hypothetical/factual backing. (most of the time) I mean really, do you honestly expect soldiers on either side to just run out in the open in firefights?

It's not like the games don't contradict themselves either in terms of military strength.

  • 02.18.2011 9:31 PM PDT
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Posted by: chotato
smart, interesting, seems out of place.


Official fan of Assassin's Creed, Call of Duty, (Problem with that?) Halo, and Bungie, also a total gaming junkie.

Aw I was hoping that this would STAY locked.

  • 02.18.2011 9:55 PM PDT


Posted by: Child0fTheMind
Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron
Number of Spartan isn't really solid. Red team is MIA, and they aren't part of that number.

Halsey didn't know Noble Team was Spartan III's, just that they were Spartans. As for Jorge, the "No Spartan II's know about Spartan III's" is limited. Well, I frankly off the top of my head can't remember where that would be stated, or if it's simply an assumed thing due to the nature of it.


The Number of Spartan II's was a solid number of 75... Master Chief specifically states that the remaining Spartan II's, other than the three too far to be recalled, were at the brief on the Pillar of Autumn...

150 canadates
only half trained
=75

-30 who died in augmentation
-12 who became permanently crippled
-1 too wounded for active duty (maria)
-4 who died (samuel, kurt, randall, sheila)
-3 too far away (gray team=adriana, jai, mike)
=25 (the number stated by Master Chief, that was at the brief)



The reason it isn't solid, we've had Spartans named who die or go MIA before that event, and they aren't listed.

Red team : Alice, Douglas, Jerome. All MIA and not present.
A few Spartans from Legends.

  • 02.18.2011 10:08 PM PDT
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Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron

The reason it isn't solid, we've had Spartans named who die or go MIA before that event, and they aren't listed.

Red team : Alice, Douglas, Jerome. All MIA and not present.
A few Spartans from Legends.


... those are all inconsistencies... The numbers given are the most solid base line there is to go by. Jorge, just as with all those in Halo: Legends, and those in Halo: Wars, are ALL inconsistent. Just because there are other inconsistent Spartans, doesn't make them all consistent with the canon... (in a sense, two wrongs don't make a right...)

As I said originally, with all other inconsistencies aside (along with other inconsistent characters), Jorge himself is a inconsistency.

  • 02.18.2011 11:41 PM PDT


Posted by: Child0fTheMind
Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron

The reason it isn't solid, we've had Spartans named who die or go MIA before that event, and they aren't listed.

Red team : Alice, Douglas, Jerome. All MIA and not present.
A few Spartans from Legends.


... those are all inconsistencies... The numbers given are the most solid base line there is to go by. Jorge, just as with all those in Halo: Legends, and those in Halo: Wars, are ALL inconsistent. Just because there are other inconsistent Spartans, doesn't make them all consistent with the canon... (in a sense, two wrongs don't make a right...)

As I said originally, with all other inconsistencies aside (along with other inconsistent characters), Jorge himself is a inconsistency.


The point is, as we don't have the Halo bible to reference, we only see what has been given. I see an expanding universe's lore (which natural will have some conflicting items, ALL of them do.)

Naming one "King" over the others and not even looking past the base-most layer is foolish.

Also, all the Spartan II's who died in augmentations were frozen with hopes and plans to revive them, if you didn't know.

[Edited on 02.19.2011 12:01 AM PST]

  • 02.19.2011 12:00 AM PDT
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Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron

The point is, as we don't have the Halo bible to reference, we only see what has been given. I see an expanding universe's lore (which natural will have some conflicting items, ALL of them do.)

Naming one "King" over the others and not even looking past the base-most layer is foolish.


The best stories fix their own inconsistencies, with plausible solutions in the scheme of that universe. Comics do this, Star Wars does this, Warcraft does this, they ALL do this. Except for the Halo universe, which seems to require the fans to create fan fiction not just to tell untold stories and have fun, but also to create what is necessary to make the actual story make sense. This, is not how it is suppose to be, nor how it should be; as is proof with fans having to discuss the inconsistencies here.

All works of fiction have a ground base, and subsequent levels of authority. To not name one "King", as you put it, would compound the problem by having all work valid and thus, infallible.

First comics say that Superman (used simply because he is an iconic character that is well known) cannot fly but jump far distances, and then he was made to fly... And yet, instead of leaving the fans with no explanation to this change in abilities, it was explained... as all retcons should be.


Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron
Also, all the Spartan II's who died in augmentations were frozen with hopes and plans to revive them, if you didn't know.


And as far as canon goes, they are all still frozen, with the exception to Team Black from Bloodlines.

  • 02.19.2011 12:31 AM PDT

prozeyic

Bungie stated that the books were optional cannon. But good finds though.

  • 02.19.2011 1:36 AM PDT

Signatures are for squares.

Posted by: Child0fTheMind
Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron

The reason it isn't solid, we've had Spartans named who die or go MIA before that event, and they aren't listed.

Red team : Alice, Douglas, Jerome. All MIA and not present.
A few Spartans from Legends.


... those are all inconsistencies... The numbers given are the most solid base line there is to go by. Jorge, just as with all those in Halo: Legends, and those in Halo: Wars, are ALL inconsistent. Just because there are other inconsistent Spartans, doesn't make them all consistent with the canon... (in a sense, two wrongs don't make a right...)

As I said originally, with all other inconsistencies aside (along with other inconsistent characters), Jorge himself is a inconsistency.


Halseys Journal fixes up those inconsistencies, to an extant. She says rather than pursue a class II project, she invested funds into getting much better treatment for the II's who failed augmentations, and get them back to normal. It's implied that they ended up getting through their multiple surgeries and go into combat as regular Spartan II's. This means that an additional 11(Soren went MIA before he could get treated.) Spartan II's are added to that, "32 Spartan II's survived augmentations" line. It's never stated anywhere, but I also believe Spartan BLACK team is also consisted of Spartans who ONI claimed died during the augmentation procedures. They are a classified ONI Team(Though all Spartans are supposed to be) And are even more "classified" than Gray Team. So, in reality, 47 Spartan II's survived and went into combat duty.

  • 02.19.2011 6:47 AM PDT

Signatures are for squares.

Posted by: ankor66
Bungie stated that the books were optional cannon. But good finds though.


Bungie always stated the books were total canon, but you didn't need to read them to understand the games. They "enhance the games." But they all fit into the Halo story perfectly.

  • 02.19.2011 6:48 AM PDT

Don't worry, you're still your mom's favorite Bnet member.

Posted by: privet caboose
Posted by: ankor66
Bungie stated that the books were optional cannon. But good finds though.


Bungie always stated the books were total canon, but you didn't need to read them to understand the games. They "enhance the games." But they all fit into the Halo story perfectly.
Well, they used to.
OH LOW BLOW
Nah just kidding, it actually kind of pisses me off that Bungie would change all this.

  • 02.19.2011 7:29 AM PDT
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A Hobo Panda

In case you hadn't noticed this before, the Halo books ARE NOT MADE TO FIT THE GAME STORY, and vice-versa.
Derpface.

  • 02.19.2011 8:16 AM PDT
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"Time was your ally human. But now it has abandoned you. The Forerunners....have returned. And this tomb... is now yours". - The Didact


Posted by: SGH
In case you hadn't noticed this before, the Halo books ARE NOT MADE TO FIT THE GAME STORY, and vice-versa.
Derpface.


They exist in the same universe.

And yet the games and books are connected,like how FS explains how the chief got back to Earth and how Jonhson survived the flood.

Or how about human weakness where it shows us gravemind rapping cortana in high charity.

I can give far more exemples if you want.

  • 02.19.2011 8:22 AM PDT


Posted by: Beowolfe

Posted by: OrderedComa

Posted by: Beowolfe

Posted by: OrderedComa

I actually wasn't talking about anything specific, just the Covenant in general when I made the comments about what I regard as the poor portrayal of their power. Frankly I don't think either the games or the books are a fair portrayal of the Covies, granted I lean a little closer to the games in this regard, but both are flawed portrayals imo.


Flawed how? And are you serious? The games are so limited by tech and mechanics that they fail to portray anyone close to what they should be, even the super soldiers. Crysis does a better job at that than any Halo ever did.


I essentially already explained how I thought it was flawed, should be near the top of the page.
I've never played Crysis, don't know anything about it.
I know the games are limited in what they can do, but I lean closer to the depiction of things the way the games show them than the books, as I said earlier I am sort of in the middle in regards to the Covenant weaponry, neither the books or the games are perfect, but I feel something a little closer to the games is best.

Read the entire page, do not see any points that I or someone else has not countered (repeatedly, actually), and it was based on your opinion, as it should be. Still, I don't see how you can use that in argument.
Crysis, or rather, Crysis 2, will be the Halo-killer, to quote the developers. Now, I don't completely agree with that statement myself, but that just shows you the scale of quality that we're talking about. From what I know about Crysis and what little I've seen about Crysis 2, I can tell you that they were successful in making the super-soldiers actually "special".
As we've gone over a million times, siding with the games is basically choosing a watered-down version of the story/universe. The novels had to make sense, the games could not afford to be limited as much by logic because they had to accommodate gameplay. However,the novels have far more weight when it comes to descriptions on how things work, simply because they're actually explained with hypothetical/factual backing. (most of the time) I mean really, do you honestly expect soldiers on either side to just run out in the open in firefights?

It's not like the games don't contradict themselves either in terms of military strength.


I don't side with the games over the books, I have said many times that I am kinda in the middle on the whole thing, and I lean more toward the portrayal of the weaponry in the games and only that. I know the characters are not going to behave in the game as they really would in reality.

Like I said, I don't know anything about Crisis, and even you think it portrays its super soldiers better, it wouldn't matter to me, they're different universes and will be completely different portrayal and story wise. I honestly don't care how the two compare.

  • 02.19.2011 10:42 AM PDT
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CoD is a good game, even if the Halo series are better in some aspects. Anyone who insults either is just bad in that game. Grow up.


Posted by: OrderedComa

I don't side with the games over the books, I have said many times that I am kinda in the middle on the whole thing, and I lean more toward the portrayal of the weaponry in the games and only that. I know the characters are not going to behave in the game as they really would in reality.

Like I said, I don't know anything about Crisis, and even you think it portrays its super soldiers better, it wouldn't matter to me, they're different universes and will be completely different portrayal and story wise. I honestly don't care how the two compare.

My argument still stands. Novels-> descriptions based on logic, games->gameplay, mostly in terms of weakening the weaponry on both sides. Leaning towards the games is turning away from the logic that is the novels.
It's spelled Crysis, thank you very much, and it's not I think it portrays super soldiers better, it simply does. It's a difference of capabilities portrayal, Halo makes people feel like you play as a normal person, and I know this because I've argued with countless people trying to convince them that Master Chief is actually a super-soldier. During the entire halo game series no Spartan has ever been shown to be the super soldiers that they are. They move slow compared to how they should, they bunny jump, and they can't shoot to save their lives.

I just love how you always dismiss valid arguments by a simple "I don't care". That doesn't work; you're not giving your side any advantages by saying you don't care about the topic at hand, which is that halo games have poor portrayal of military prowess, especially super soldiers. You don't seem to understand, the point of me bringing up Crysis is evidence to show how super-soldiers can and should be portrayed, I couldn't care less if you care about the different universe or not.

[Edited on 02.19.2011 1:35 PM PST]

  • 02.19.2011 1:21 PM PDT

Signatures are for squares.

Posted by: Beowolfe

Halo makes people feel like you play as a normal person, and I know this because I've argued with countless people trying to convince them that Master Chief is actually a super-soldier. During the entire halo game series no Spartan has ever been shown to be the super soldiers that they are.


Monsters and Return to Sender portray Spartans pretty well.

  • 02.19.2011 1:23 PM PDT
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CoD is a good game, even if the Halo series are better in some aspects. Anyone who insults either is just bad in that game. Grow up.


Posted by: privet caboose
Posted by: Beowolfe

Halo makes people feel like you play as a normal person, and I know this because I've argued with countless people trying to convince them that Master Chief is actually a super-soldier. During the entire halo game series no Spartan has ever been shown to be the super soldiers that they are.


Monsters and Return to Sender portray Spartans pretty well.

Those are rare exceptions; monsters I'd have to agree with, but being that it's from Halo Wars and the circumstances surrounding it is peculiar I don't tend to take it as seriously as I do with other sources.
Return to sender, well, the way they showed it seemed to indicate that there was a factor of luck involved, but seeing as how I don't know the exact situation, I can't comment on that.

But that's besides the point, those cases are rare even in cutscenes, and I'm also looking for signs outside of the cutscenes, namely gameplay. That Halo has never done.

  • 02.19.2011 1:31 PM PDT

Posted By: Child0fTheMind
The Number of Spartan II's was a solid number of 75... Master Chief specifically states that the remaining Spartan II's, other than the three too far to be recalled, were at the brief on the Pillar of Autumn...

150 canadates
only half trained
=75

-30 who died in augmentation
-12 who became permanently crippled
-1 too wounded for active duty (maria)
-4 who died (samuel, kurt, randall, sheila)
-3 too far away (gray team=adriana, jai, mike)
=25 (the number stated by Master Chief, that was at the brief)

"Clustered around him were two dozen Spartans: Fred, Linda, Joshua, James, and many others he had not spoken to for years..."

2 dozen, plus himself = 25... Thus all Spartan II's are accounted for.


This leaves the only possible placement for Jorge to be either "died in augmentation" or "permenently crippled". Either one being very illogical.


The whole inaccuracies in the numbers is pretty much fixed in Halsey's Journal, and most of the "new" Spartans come from amongst the "dead" and crippled ones. And also any new Spartans sticking around are merely from among the 75 candidates and having names provided for them, regardless of whether they're from the ones unscathed by the augmentation process or ones from the combat ineffective and dead ones who get revived/healed. Jorge is either one of the original successful candidates or one of the others. And how is being one of those illogical? If Linda can be revived then it shouldn't be silly for anyone else to be.

Also, it is specifically stated that Master Chief is the highest ranking Spartan II, until Kurt and ultimately Fred. With Jorge being a warrant officer, this puts him as a higher rank than Master Chief and thus negates the facts.

"No Spartan II's know about the Spartan III's" is not stated, however, it is stated that the Spartan III project is above top secret with only those in the program knowning of the program, this leaves the Spartan II's out of the loop of knowning the Spartan III's. Also, since Dr. Halsey herself does not know of the Spartan III's, her students should have no knownledge of them either, unless they are placed in the program, in which that case they would be declared MIA and their actual status would be kept from those not in the program, including Dr. Halsey.

Since Dr. Halsey is very well aware that Jorge is still alive, it can be assumed that Jorge is not being kept a secret by ONI, which would indicate that Jorge is not part of the Spartan III program, but being that he is aware that is comrades are Spartan III's, this would indicate that he is in the program (in the same sense as Kurt being in the program), and yet his status is not being kept a secret by ONI, being that Dr. Halsey is aware of his status... And thus it continues to loop... It does not make logical sense without illogical explanations, which should not be necessary.


The point about Master Chief being highest rank except for Kurt and Fred is a case of gaining new information, it's the same as having the Brutes being involved in the war the whole time, it is a case of "new outranks old" which has always been in affect in regards to canon. In fact, I'll bet if this wasn't Reach we were talking about it probably would not be an issue for anybody.

Noble Team is not exactly secret, they actively interact with the regular military, hell, they're under command of someone not involved in the SIII program and probabely doesn't have clearance for briefing on it. And Halsey doesn't exactly keep in touch with her Spartans, she's not kept up to date on where each and every one is. Jorge is merely assigned to Noble, he does not need to be declared MIA because he's not actively involved in the SIII program itself. And Jorge is not Halsey's student anymore, what one knows the other does not need to know, and often doesn't.

Actually, if I remember correctly, Halsey was not aware of the status of any of her Spartans until First Strike when she saw that they were all "MIA". Oh, so if something is thought up be the fans to explain something and isn't addressed by the creators it's automatically illogical? Yeah, have fun with that...

  • 02.19.2011 1:56 PM PDT

Posted By: OrderedComa
Actually, if I remember correctly, Halsey was not aware of the status of any of her Spartans until First Strike when she saw that they were all "MIA".


Uh, no. I'm afraid that Halo Canon completely disagrees with you.

In Ghosts of Onyx, Halsey flat out says that she has been keeping tabs on the Spartans who actually were MIA, and can immediately name the only ones the then unidentified Spartan (Kurt) could have been; Kurt or Randall.

That, I think, perfectly illustrates that Halsey SHOULD have questioned Carter and the rest of Noble team, not just assumed they were some other Spartans she had never heard of, given that she HAND CHOSE ALL OF THEM.

[Edited on 02.19.2011 3:01 PM PST]

  • 02.19.2011 2:59 PM PDT


Posted by: Beowolfe

Posted by: privet caboose
Posted by: Beowolfe

Halo makes people feel like you play as a normal person, and I know this because I've argued with countless people trying to convince them that Master Chief is actually a super-soldier. During the entire halo game series no Spartan has ever been shown to be the super soldiers that they are.


Monsters and Return to Sender portray Spartans pretty well.

Those are rare exceptions; monsters I'd have to agree with, but being that it's from Halo Wars and the circumstances surrounding it is peculiar I don't tend to take it as seriously as I do with other sources.
Return to sender, well, the way they showed it seemed to indicate that there was a factor of luck involved, but seeing as how I don't know the exact situation, I can't comment on that.

But that's besides the point, those cases are rare even in cutscenes, and I'm also looking for signs outside of the cutscenes, namely gameplay. That Halo has never done.
see Beowolfe you over analyse things instead of enjoying it, how do you know what a spartan acts like? you dont and in situations they dont act like spartans(which you believe) you go Ape-blam!-, you see even spartans with there agumations will be Different and never act the same as another. (this also goes towards the whole idea on emiles death if you remember that?)

  • 02.19.2011 3:33 PM PDT


Posted by: Beowolfe

Posted by: OrderedComa

I don't side with the games over the books, I have said many times that I am kinda in the middle on the whole thing, and I lean more toward the portrayal of the weaponry in the games and only that. I know the characters are not going to behave in the game as they really would in reality.

Like I said, I don't know anything about Crisis, and even you think it portrays its super soldiers better, it wouldn't matter to me, they're different universes and will be completely different portrayal and story wise. I honestly don't care how the two compare.

My argument still stands. Novels-> descriptions based on logic, games->gameplay, mostly in terms of weakening the weaponry on both sides. Leaning towards the games is turning away from the logic that is the novels.
It's spelled Crysis, thank you very much, and it's not I think it portrays super soldiers better, it simply does. It's a difference of capabilities portrayal, Halo makes people feel like you play as a normal person, and I know this because I've argued with countless people trying to convince them that Master Chief is actually a super-soldier. During the entire halo game series no Spartan has ever been shown to be the super soldiers that they are. They move slow compared to how they should, they bunny jump, and they can't shoot to save their lives.

I just love how you always dismiss valid arguments by a simple "I don't care". That doesn't work; you're not giving your side any advantages by saying you don't care about the topic at hand, which is that halo games have poor portrayal of military prowess, especially super soldiers. You don't seem to understand, the point of me bringing up Crysis is evidence to show how super-soldiers can and should be portrayed, I couldn't care less if you care about the different universe or not.


Oh gosh, that opening comment cracked me up, I'm chuckling at it still xD I'm not turning away from anything, your opinion that the books are so logical is exactly that, your opinion.

I'm sorry, like I said, I know next to nothing about Crysis, I've never even heard of it before today. That is still just your opinion, not everyone will agree with you that it does a better job. I've never felt like I was playing a normal human, that's just your opinion. Those 5+ Scarabs, Return to Sender, Lone Wolf, and the cutscene Monsters would like to have a word with you on the issue.

You're completely welcome to think differently, but I do not view whatever points you bring up to compare Crysis to Halo as valid to this discussion. As I said, they are completely different stories with their own sets of rules and universal laws, what happens in one means nothing to the other. And I completely disagree, I think the portrayal of military actions is just as good in Halo as it is in any other shooter.
When last I checked, the only set of rules for having something be a "super soldier" was that they were better than the average, run of the mill recruit, and all the Spartan shown in the Halo games are quite clearly that.

  • 02.19.2011 5:21 PM PDT


Posted by: EchoGamer
Posted By: OrderedComa
Actually, if I remember correctly, Halsey was not aware of the status of any of her Spartans until First Strike when she saw that they were all "MIA".


Uh, no. I'm afraid that Halo Canon completely disagrees with you.

In Ghosts of Onyx, Halsey flat out says that she has been keeping tabs on the Spartans who actually were MIA, and can immediately name the only ones the then unidentified Spartan (Kurt) could have been; Kurt or Randall.

That, I think, perfectly illustrates that Halsey SHOULD have questioned Carter and the rest of Noble team, not just assumed they were some other Spartans she had never heard of, given that she HAND CHOSE ALL OF THEM.


Like I said "if I remember correctly" I didn't say that's how it was. And your point doesn't really disprove anything I said, it is in Ghost of Onyx, which takes place after First Strike when Halsey sees the list of Spartans and all the "MIAs".

And Halsey can't question Noble Team, she doesn't have the authority to, even if she did question them she would not get any answers. And what else is there to think than they're not her Spartans, because as you pointed out she knew all of hers.

  • 02.19.2011 5:46 PM PDT
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CoD is a good game, even if the Halo series are better in some aspects. Anyone who insults either is just bad in that game. Grow up.


Posted by: OrderedComa

Posted by: Beowolfe

Posted by: OrderedComa

I don't side with the games over the books, I have said many times that I am kinda in the middle on the whole thing, and I lean more toward the portrayal of the weaponry in the games and only that. I know the characters are not going to behave in the game as they really would in reality.

Like I said, I don't know anything about Crisis, and even you think it portrays its super soldiers better, it wouldn't matter to me, they're different universes and will be completely different portrayal and story wise. I honestly don't care how the two compare.

My argument still stands. Novels-> descriptions based on logic, games->gameplay, mostly in terms of weakening the weaponry on both sides. Leaning towards the games is turning away from the logic that is the novels.
It's spelled Crysis, thank you very much, and it's not I think it portrays super soldiers better, it simply does. It's a difference of capabilities portrayal, Halo makes people feel like you play as a normal person, and I know this because I've argued with countless people trying to convince them that Master Chief is actually a super-soldier. During the entire halo game series no Spartan has ever been shown to be the super soldiers that they are. They move slow compared to how they should, they bunny jump, and they can't shoot to save their lives.

I just love how you always dismiss valid arguments by a simple "I don't care". That doesn't work; you're not giving your side any advantages by saying you don't care about the topic at hand, which is that halo games have poor portrayal of military prowess, especially super soldiers. You don't seem to understand, the point of me bringing up Crysis is evidence to show how super-soldiers can and should be portrayed, I couldn't care less if you care about the different universe or not.


Oh gosh, that opening comment cracked me up, I'm chuckling at it still xD I'm not turning away from anything, your opinion that the books are so logical is exactly that, your opinion.

I'm sorry, like I said, I know next to nothing about Crysis, I've never even heard of it before today. That is still just your opinion, not everyone will agree with you that it does a better job. I've never felt like I was playing a normal human, that's just your opinion. Those 5+ Scarabs, Return to Sender, Lone Wolf, and the cutscene Monsters would like to have a word with you on the issue.

You're completely welcome to think differently, but I do not view whatever points you bring up to compare Crysis to Halo as valid to this discussion. As I said, they are completely different stories with their own sets of rules and universal laws, what happens in one means nothing to the other. And I completely disagree, I think the portrayal of military actions is just as good in Halo as it is in any other shooter.
When last I checked, the only set of rules for having something be a "super soldier" was that they were better than the average, run of the mill recruit, and all the Spartan shown in the Halo games are quite clearly that.


My opinion that novel is logic? Yes. But it's certainly closer to how logic would function than the games does.

And yea,it is my opinion still that Crysis does a better job, but I can also promise you that everyone who's played both games WILL agree with me. It's that blatantly obvious.Crysis was PC exclusive, and although Crysis 2 will have console ports, it remains one of the top games with higher end tech. Halo isn't, and maybe that what makes the difference in portrayal, but either way Halo has got nothing in terms of that particular comparison.

I'm guessing you're a primary console gamer, that would explain your slightly narrow mindset on the extent that games can portray stories. At least you're not alone, most people I've seen on Halo/CoD forums are the same.

As I've said, it's not just about what you do in terms of plot in the games, or even the cutscenes, but rather what you, as a player, are able to do as a soldier when you play the game. I suppose since you seem to have difficulty discerning plot from abilities, you would think that what the games MAKES you do to progress the story is indicative of super-soldier qualities.

Sure, you can say that, and that I would agree, it's not everyone who can accomplish the same, but really, what I seek is the simple fact of portrayal in what the player can do. For example, in F.E.A.R. games you know you're a super soldier because you can go into "bullet time" and pull off acrobatic moves.

In terms of that, what can you do when playing halo that actually marks you as special? Half the people I argued with just claimed that the Mjolnir armour gave John all the physical augmentations, since the game is designed to NOT show his capabilities as a super soldier. The game is extremely arcade in design. That simply does not have what it takes to portray super soldiers. Noble Team were just shown unkillable NPCs, and to be honest, Lone Wolf was just over-dramatization. If the health bar is already zero when it cuts to the scene, how is he even standing, let alone take mulltiple plasma shots and still have enough strength to kick the elites away. If they made it so that the cutscene happens when the shield is drained, I might have actually believed it.

The reason I brought in Crysis as evidence was because that is what I've always envisioned Spartans to be. In other words, Crysis literally fleshed out a super soldier according to descriptions you would find in a Halo novel. No, they did not copy Halo, but rather, those descriptions you read about in the novels, you can actually SEE in Crysis when you play the game. No bunny hopping, actual incredible speed boosts and physical strength, and tactics and abilities like you would see a super-soldier do.

By your definition, an ODST with no augmentation is a super-soldier...

  • 02.19.2011 7:34 PM PDT

Posted By: Beowolfe
My opinion that novel is logic? Yes. But it's certainly closer to how logic would function than the games does.

And yea,it is my opinion still that Crysis does a better job, but I can also promise you that everyone who's played both games WILL agree with me. It's that blatantly obvious.Crysis was PC exclusive, and although Crysis 2 will have console ports, it remains one of the top games with higher end tech. Halo isn't, and maybe that what makes the difference in portrayal, but either way Halo has got nothing in terms of that particular comparison.

I'm guessing you're a primary console gamer, that would explain your slightly narrow mindset on the extent that games can portray stories. At least you're not alone, most people I've seen on Halo/CoD forums are the same.


I see plenty of logic in both, maybe what you're looking for is informative? Because books are certainly much more informative than a game could ever be, depending on the book.

I highly doubt that everyone who's played both will agree with you. It sounds to me, from what you've said so far, that Crysis is more your gaming love than Halo and your opinions might be a little bit biased, but that's ok because Halo is my gaming love and I'm more biased toward it than any other shooter. From what my friend said about Crysis today when I asked him about it, he said it, I think he was talking more about Crysis 2, was poorly made hodge-podge of Halo, CoD, and BF:BCII. Now because I haven't played the game, I will try my best to maintain a neutral view of it, but my friend kinda knows what he's talking about when he talks about games, so that may color my view a bit, but I shall try my best to stay neutral.

Actually I'm neither console or PC gamer, I like both equally, I'm just behind in the PC gaming world because I haven't had a computer that's good for gaming for quite a while. And what mindset are you talking about exactly?

As I've said, it's not just about what you do in terms of plot in the games, or even the cutscenes, but rather what you, as a player, are able to do as a soldier when you play the game. I suppose since you seem to have difficulty discerning plot from abilities, you would think that what the games MAKES you do to progress the story is indicative of super-soldier qualities.

Sure, you can say that, and that I would agree, it's not everyone who can accomplish the same, but really, what I seek is the simple fact of portrayal in what the player can do. For example, in F.E.A.R. games you know you're a super soldier because you can go into "bullet time" and pull off acrobatic moves.

In terms of that, what can you do when playing halo that actually marks you as special? Half the people I argued with just claimed that the Mjolnir armour gave John all the physical augmentations, since the game is designed to NOT show his capabilities as a super soldier. The game is extremely arcade in design. That simply does not have what it takes to portray super soldiers. Noble Team were just shown unkillable NPCs, and to be honest, Lone Wolf was just over-dramatization. If the health bar is already zero when it cuts to the scene, how is he even standing, let alone take mulltiple plasma shots and still have enough strength to kick the elites away. If they made it so that the cutscene happens when the shield is drained, I might have actually believed it.


You don't need to be able to do something in game to tell you that the player character is special or a super soldier, it helps, but it is not necessary, one can exist without the other. There is very, very, very little difference between "plot" and "ability". The "plot" is influenced [i]by[/i[ your "abilities".

Then that just means they are ignorant of Chief's origins, it sounds like from what you're saying here that these people you were arguing with acknowledge that Chief is a super soldier, it sounds more like you were arguing back story and origins with them.

If Noble Team acted the way they were supposed to the game would have played itself, you wouldn't have to do anything, and the game would be way too easy. As for Lone Wolf, it's like any boss fight where you can see the boss's life meter, even though you technically "killed" the boss in gameplay, it shows a cutscene of you killing it. You can view it as a more of a countdown to the death scene. Super Smash Bros. Brawl is a perfect example of this, all the boss fights in the campaign mode have a life meter, and even though it shows them die, immediately after it goes into a cutscene where the monster gets killed by the protagonists.

The reason I brought in Crysis as evidence was because that is what I've always envisioned Spartans to be. In other words, Crysis literally fleshed out a super soldier according to descriptions you would find in a Halo novel. No, they did not copy Halo, but rather, those descriptions you read about in the novels, you can actually SEE in Crysis when you play the game. No bunny hopping, actual incredible speed boosts and physical strength, and tactics and abilities like you would see a super-soldier do.

That is simply your opinion, and I do not agree or disagree with it because I have not played Crysis. However, my point still stands that you can't use it as evidence of what Spartans should do in Halo's gameplay. And you obviously have superior strength, it takes the marines in Halo many hits to beatdown an Elite or Brute, whereas the player kills them in two hits, one to take out armor/shields and the other to deliver the killing blow.

By your definition, an ODST with no augmentation is a super-soldier...

Eh, yes and no, the ODSTs are better than your average mook, so they are essentially super soldiers, but they're still normal, so they're not exactly a super soldier, more like a badass normal

  • 02.20.2011 10:25 AM PDT
  • gamertag: An0nz
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CoD is a good game, even if the Halo series are better in some aspects. Anyone who insults either is just bad in that game. Grow up.


Posted by: OrderedComa
I see plenty of logic in both, maybe what you're looking for is informative? Because books are certainly much more informative than a game could ever be, depending on the book.


No, I'm looking for logic. Games are focused on gameplay,not logic. In a Halo (excluding Halo Wars) game, no automatic weapon can get headshots, you're limited by the game mechanics in terms of what you can do, and the story is only as good as the cutscenes.

I highly doubt that everyone who's played both will agree with you. It sounds to me, from what you've said so far, that Crysis is more your gaming love than Halo and your opinions might be a little bit biased, but that's ok because Halo is my gaming love and I'm more biased toward it than any other shooter. From what my friend said about Crysis today when I asked him about it, he said it, I think he was talking more about Crysis 2, was poorly made hodge-podge of Halo, CoD, and BF:BCII. Now because I haven't played the game, I will try my best to maintain a neutral view of it, but my friend kinda knows what he's talking about when he talks about games, so that may color my view a bit, but I shall try my best to stay neutral.

Actually I'm neither console or PC gamer, I like both equally, I'm just behind in the PC gaming world because I haven't had a computer that's good for gaming for quite a while. And what mindset are you talking about exactly?

You're probably right. Not 100% of players who play both will agree with me. Only 99%. It's like asking if someone thinks $1000 is more than $500. It's just that obvious. Halo doesn't show your super-soldier might through gameplay, the player just knows that you play as a super soldier, but you never actually use abilities that would prove to be so.

First of all, your friend...well, he's your friend, so he's probably going to side with you, and second, I don't know what he's smoking because Crysis 2 isn't actually released yet. (not the retail version anyways)And honestly, whenever someone say that they honestly just sound like they're fairly narrow minded and set on the simple idea of "everyone wants to copy from mainstream games". Just like how when everyone hears of Guild Wars 2, they immediately think "they're trying to copy World of Warcraft". On another note, if your friend is making judgments based on the recent fail of the Crysis 2 MP demo, then I doubt he can make a proper judgment. If, however, he's gotten himself on a copy of the leaked beta, well, I personally have only seen an friend play that as well, so I can't comment on that.

If you're behind on pc gaming but still relatively knowledgeable about console gaming..that would make you a bigger console gamer than pc. But Crysis 1 was released in 2007, so you must be years behind the pc gaming curve. The only reason Crysis wasn't huge like Halo or CoD was because it wasn't as much of a game as graphic showcase; you can play it just like any other game, but you needed an extremely good computer. Back when it was released, the best possible gaming pc couldn't even run the game at more than "high" settings, and the FPS was fairly low.

I don't have Cryis as my gaming love...I'm an extremely rounded gamer, and I simply look at what's good about a game compared to others. Halo just doesn't compare when you look at the portrayal of military prowess. Again, this is funny, people tend to place all these mainstream games on a pedestal, as if they are the ultimate games of the decade, but there are other, maybe less famous games out there that are easily the same caliber if not better.

As for the mindset? PC gamers have long realized the potential for games to actually "act out" the scenes you can see in a movie, and so the portrayal found in pure-console games like Halo are simply sup-par in comparison. Can't blame them. Consoles are working with outdated tech now.

You don't need to be able to do something in game to tell you that the player character is special or a super soldier, it helps, but it is not necessary, one can exist without the other. There is very, very, very little difference between "plot" and "ability". The "plot" is influenced [i]by[/i[ your "abilities".

If Noble Team acted the way they were supposed to the game would have played itself, you wouldn't have to do anything, and the game would be way too easy. As for Lone Wolf, it's like any boss fight where you can see the boss's life meter, even though you technically "killed" the boss in gameplay, it shows a cutscene of you killing it. You can view it as a more of a countdown to the death scene. Super Smash Bros. Brawl is a perfect example of this, all the boss fights in the campaign mode have a life meter, and even though it shows them die, immediately after it goes into a cutscene where the monster gets killed by the protagonists.

There is a difference between knowing that the player is special and having the game actually SHOW you, the latter being portrayal. For example, what would make you feel like a soldier more during World War II? Being enlisted in the army reserves, or actually being sent to the front-lines?

If a game tells me I am a super-soldier, and yet from my capabilities are limited compared to other sources (novels) or other portrayals (competing games or movies) then I find it kind of hard to actually believe that I'm special.

There is a fine line between plot and ability...and I think you should learn that before you step into that argument again. In any case, I'm talking about player-controllable abilities, not abilities as you would describe a character.

And I just love when people say that. There are ways to make NPCs better without making them play the entire course of the game. Look at Gears of War. Look at Mass Effect, or even look at CoD. First, there's nothing wrong with making NPCs who are good enough to match that of an average player, that just means you get to put more enemies on the field. Secondly, these NPCs can be demonstrated to be special through other means than making them so smart the game plays itself, namely, cutscenes that occur more than once that reinforces this specialty throughout the course of the game.

Brawl is not a FPS, is it? Many game genres sport the "drain health and yet still alive thing", but that doesn't fit well in FPS games. Then again, this is a small issue; as I've said before, all that they had to do was trigger the cutscene as soon as the shields were drained, and everything would make much more sense.

That is simply your opinion, and I do not agree or disagree with it because I have not played Crysis. However, my point still stands that you can't use it as evidence of what Spartans should do in Halo's gameplay. And you obviously have superior strength, it takes the marines in Halo many hits to beatdown an Elite or Brute, whereas the player kills them in two hits, one to take out armor/shields and the other to deliver the killing blow.

Yea...I CAN use it as evidence, because that's simply a comparison to see how gameplay can be used as a tool to fill in the descriptions, it's not about whether Spartans should do this or that, but rather that if they were fleshed out properly, it would look much more like Crysis than Halo. Go watch a Halo match in theatre mode...So arcade it's not even funny.

Yea, Spartans are stronger than marines in game, but that and flipping vehicles (which automatically flip when you hit a button) are the only times you really see their strength in gameplay. In Crysis, you can actually use that strength in situations other than hitting people, and the actions are usually portrayed more similar to how you would see in Mirror's Edge, where you can visually see your characters perform the actions.

Eh, yes and no, the ODSTs are better than your average mook, so they are essentially super soldiers, but they're still normal, so they're not exactly a super soldier, more like a badass normal
Yea. So they're not super-soldiers, which just trumps your point about the only rule about super-soldiers being that they're better than the average run-of-the-mill recruit.

[Edited on 02.20.2011 12:09 PM PST]

  • 02.20.2011 12:07 PM PDT