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This topic has moved here: Subject: Unexplainable errors in the Halo canon. (Spoilers)
  • Subject: Unexplainable errors in the Halo canon. (Spoilers)
Subject: Unexplainable errors in the Halo canon. (Spoilers)


Posted by: Jak O Bladez

Posted by: Hysterical Joker
I like that you describe it as a small advance force, but later mention the army hiding canopies. Is a Covenant Supercruiser part of a small advance force? Hardly seems covert.

Even the fact the Covenant were able to get that thing to Reach undetected is silly, not to mention deploy the materials required to construct cloaking devices without being discovered prior to them activating.

It could cloak, and the covenant can do super-precise slip space jumps.
It was cloaked by the cloaking towers. How do the Covenant transport cloaking towers except by the Supercarrier? Ergo, the supercarrier was uncloaked and orbiting Reach for a period. I understand how it snuck past sensors since the Covenant took out the Visegard Com Relay, but it doesn't account for all the people in orbit who would've seen something

  • 09.19.2010 8:38 PM PDT

Edit: Unnecessary

[Edited on 09.19.2010 8:41 PM PDT]

  • 09.19.2010 8:41 PM PDT

Old School

mate, apperantly ANYTHING is possible now with the new canon. hell, high charity was probably powered by brutes in a giant wheel instead of the dreadnought

  • 09.19.2010 8:47 PM PDT


Posted by: darkruby
mate, apperantly ANYTHING is possible now with the new canon. hell, high charity was probably powered by brutes in a giant wheel instead of the dreadnought

That's a route you can take.

Options:
1. Try to remedy inconsistent lore and go with what hasn't been fangled with
Or
2. Say nothing is can be trusted any more, and SPARTANs will be retconned into being named FREE MASONs.

  • 09.19.2010 8:54 PM PDT

When the going gets tough, whine and groan and complain, then post a thread on the flood about how tough the going is and flame anyone who disagrees.

My theory:

The force that Noble encountered is probably just a scouting force (as said above), and maybe the super-carrier was just a vehicle for the Zealot team.

BUT we forget something.

The planet rotates as the day goes by.
I don't know the exact length of one Reach-day (its in project guide but im too lazy), but that does puzzle me.

  • 09.19.2010 9:34 PM PDT


Posted by: Phoienex001
My theory:

The force that Noble encountered is probably just a scouting force (as said above), and maybe the super-carrier was just a vehicle for the Zealot team.

BUT we forget something.

The planet rotates as the day goes by.
I don't know the exact length of one Reach-day (its in project guide but im too lazy), but that does puzzle me.

The Zealot team was the scouting force. They knocked out the Comm Relay.

That eliminates long range sensors for the Supercarrier to enter the system undetected. No mention of how the entirety of the people in orbit over Reach suddenly became blind though.

  • 09.19.2010 9:46 PM PDT
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you're naut cookin'

This may sound dispassionate, but I'm giving up on the lore of Halo. Too much of my time is dedicated to being on these forums, and I've recently (unofficially) learnt that Bungie purposefully made the canon errors to spite Microsoft and their employee, Eric Nylund.

It's unfortunate considering Nylund's story was actually better in every single aspect.

Anyway, I don't think I'll purchase any other Bungie games, unless they decide to one day actually care about their fans, not petty fights and making money.

Goodluck to everyone involved in the under-represented section of people that care about story.

-blam!- you bungie.

  • 09.19.2010 10:42 PM PDT


Posted by: kippa
I've recently (unofficially) learnt that Bungie purposefully made the canon errors to spite Microsoft and their employee, Eric Nylund.


Hm?

  • 09.19.2010 10:50 PM PDT
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Posted by: privet caboose

Posted by: Hysterical Joker
It is very disappointing, given how enthralling and great the story is for The Fall of Reach and First Strike, not withstanding the obvious retcon issues. Even if they are re-making the novels to fix this, it will destroy a story that I very much preferred.


The re-write of Fall of Reach did not change ANYTHING. It merely added 40 pages of content to the back of the book(none of which fix these errors) and they changed the ships at Reach from 300, to 700+

Thank God they didn't change the books. IMO books >>>>>>>>>>>>Halo Reach.

  • 09.19.2010 11:22 PM PDT
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Posted by: Hysterical Joker

Posted by: kippa
I've recently (unofficially) learnt that Bungie purposefully made the canon errors to spite Microsoft and their employee, Eric Nylund.


Hm?
I was thinking this too.

  • 09.19.2010 11:28 PM PDT
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Posted by: Sniffy66
6. Who says it was always on the ground? For all we know they could of deployed Teams Red and Blue, then dock with the shipyard, get the fragment of Cortana with the Forerunner data on it, retrieve Blue team (still destroying the supercarrier of course) and then jump to Alpha Halo.


It doesn't make sense to land the entire ship on the planet. Why not just fly Cortana up in a pelican?

  • 09.19.2010 11:36 PM PDT


Posted by: nightspark
Posted by: Sniffy66
6. Who says it was always on the ground? For all we know they could of deployed Teams Red and Blue, then dock with the shipyard, get the fragment of Cortana with the Forerunner data on it, retrieve Blue team (still destroying the supercarrier of course) and then jump to Alpha Halo.


It doesn't make sense to land the entire ship on the planet. Why not just fly Cortana up in a pelican?

So you could play the final mission(Though I expected there to be at least 1 zero-g mission in Reach.)

  • 09.19.2010 11:41 PM PDT

Isn't it a possibility that the orbital MACs weren't in the area of effect that the cloaked Super Cruiser landed in? Sort of like what happened with the Carriers during the battle of Pearl Harbor?

Also, what if the Super Cruiser had experimental cloaking ablilities that were too expensive to produce for all the ships in the fleet? What if they were cloaked when landing and set up the towers because the cloaking could only last for only so long?

I'm sure I could be debunked easily, but just trying to add another perspective.

  • 09.19.2010 11:45 PM PDT
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Posted by: Hysterical Joker

Posted by: JDYeash937 MkII

Posted by: Rolling Flame
I don't see what is wrong with the Autumn being planetside. Just because it is docked doesn't mean that it was there the whole battle, and when it buggers off we don't see it entering slipspace.
It had to go through a very long warm-up process. If it docked planetside (onto a planet in the process of being overrun and glassed, I might add) to collect nothing more than an AI chip, they would have left engines running, to leave at a moments notice.

It had been there a very long time, and they were starting it up for the first time.

Think of it like pulling up outside a store and your friend going inside to buy whatever. Instead of leaving the engine running, you've turned off the engine and put the keys in your pocket. What for?

In case you don't remember, PoA came stupidly close to being glassed by a CCS Battlecruiser. If they had just 'pulled up' to pick up Cortana, then they would not have shut down the engines, leaving them open to just such a possibility.

The PoA had to undergo repair and construction in order to put that extra engine(Or whatever) inside it, which made the PoA so fast. This explains why it was docked, it was being retrofitted for the Spartan's mission to capture a prophet.

The PoA had already left Reach when word got out the the Covenant had found Reach. They didn't arrive back until after the invasion was in full swing. If ONI was keeping the Recon Covenant secret the PoA would not have been notified. If it was being refitted why would they leave Reach and turn around?

  • 09.19.2010 11:49 PM PDT


Posted by: oQ Nil Qo
Isn't it a possibility that the orbital MACs weren't in the area of effect that the cloaked Super Cruiser landed in? Sort of like what happened with the Carriers during the battle of Pearl Harbor?

Also, what if the Super Cruiser had experimental cloaking ablilities that were too expensive to produce for all the ships in the fleet? What if they were cloaked when landing and set up the towers because the cloaking could only last for only so long?

I'm sure I could be debunked easily, but just trying to add another perspective.

Reach is the military headquarters of the entire human race. I doubt they leave gaping holes in their perimeter that a Covenant Supercarrier could mosey on by and set up shop in orbit.

The Covenant are imitative, not innovative.

  • 09.20.2010 12:05 AM PDT


Posted by: nightspark
Posted by: Hysterical Joker

Posted by: JDYeash937 MkII

Posted by: Rolling Flame
I don't see what is wrong with the Autumn being planetside. Just because it is docked doesn't mean that it was there the whole battle, and when it buggers off we don't see it entering slipspace.
It had to go through a very long warm-up process. If it docked planetside (onto a planet in the process of being overrun and glassed, I might add) to collect nothing more than an AI chip, they would have left engines running, to leave at a moments notice.

It had been there a very long time, and they were starting it up for the first time.

Think of it like pulling up outside a store and your friend going inside to buy whatever. Instead of leaving the engine running, you've turned off the engine and put the keys in your pocket. What for?

In case you don't remember, PoA came stupidly close to being glassed by a CCS Battlecruiser. If they had just 'pulled up' to pick up Cortana, then they would not have shut down the engines, leaving them open to just such a possibility.

The PoA had to undergo repair and construction in order to put that extra engine(Or whatever) inside it, which made the PoA so fast. This explains why it was docked, it was being retrofitted for the Spartan's mission to capture a prophet.

The PoA had already left Reach when word got out the the Covenant had found Reach. They didn't arrive back until after the invasion was in full swing. If ONI was keeping the Recon Covenant secret the PoA would not have been notified. If it was being refitted why would they leave Reach and turn around?

I'm not sure. I'm not arguing that there aren't inconsistencies, just trying to see if a few can be remedied.

Did the PoA get its second engine or whatever before Reach was invaded? I thought they were getting retrofitted when the invasion started

  • 09.20.2010 12:07 AM PDT

Signatures are for squares.


Posted by: kippa
This may sound dispassionate, but I'm giving up on the lore of Halo. Too much of my time is dedicated to being on these forums, and I've recently (unofficially) learnt that Bungie purposefully made the canon errors to spite Microsoft and their employee, Eric Nylund.

It's unfortunate considering Nylund's story was actually better in every single aspect.

Anyway, I don't think I'll purchase any other Bungie games, unless they decide to one day actually care about their fans, not petty fights and making money.

Goodluck to everyone involved in the under-represented section of people that care about story.

-blam!- you bungie.


Where did you hear they were doing it to smite Nylund? I'd love to get a source on that. If that's the case, then I'm done with them as well.

  • 09.20.2010 3:26 AM PDT
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Posted by: Achronos
It isn't our shiznit anymore.

Shouldn't the "universe elite" be trying to remedy these inconsistencies instead of just posting problems? You know, setting an example for the rest of the forum?

  • 09.20.2010 7:16 AM PDT

Signatures are for squares.


Posted by: P3P5I
Shouldn't the "universe elite" be trying to remedy these inconsistencies instead of just posting problems? You know, setting an example for the rest of the forum?


Any problem that can be "remedied" has been. That's why this is -UNEXPLAINABLE-

It's because without bending canon we cannot fix these issues. Bungie has to.

  • 09.20.2010 10:04 AM PDT
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my two cents, because you've already seemed to have covered how badly the universe has been screwed up through this retconning:

Halo is Microsoft IP.
MS wanted bungie to retool the universe in such a way that 343i would have a more open world in which to manipulate and crank out media.
Bungie retcons in order to give 343i more wiggle room to allow the players to enjoy being spartans ect...
M$ profits.
Also Multiplayer sells; the plot really stopped mattering a long time ago to bungie- they've probably gone back and rewritten their "bible" multiple times at this point. Hell, from watching the special features, in the beginning all this was never planned out; and now that they've reached the end they're going to let someone else clean up the mess.

They had an awesome story, and awesome universe; and it's been shaken up to cater to those who only play the games and barely care for / understand the plot.

I appreciate the effort you're making, private caboose; but I dont see how much you, or the rest of the hardcore fluff fanbase can do.



*EDIT* rather than triple post, I'll just ammend this one to address some things I'm seeing, even though I'm sure it might have been covered.

How did the covenant infiltrate epsilon eridanus space? stations monitor any and all slipspace activity.

Reach is the 2nd most heavily defended piece of rock in Human Controlled space. There had to be DOZENS of these "dead zones" spread across the planet. Are we to assume the covenant, infiltrated and acted fast enough to set these up and go absolutely undetected and be immediately combat ready? Judging by game calender, you discover these in July, then the war breaks out in Aug. That's a damn slow response time.

[Edited on 09.20.2010 10:21 AM PDT]

  • 09.20.2010 10:14 AM PDT
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Posted by: Hysterical Joker

Posted by: nightspark
Posted by: Hysterical Joker

Posted by: JDYeash937 MkII

Posted by: Rolling Flame
I don't see what is wrong with the Autumn being planetside. Just because it is docked doesn't mean that it was there the whole battle, and when it buggers off we don't see it entering slipspace.
It had to go through a very long warm-up process. If it docked planetside (onto a planet in the process of being overrun and glassed, I might add) to collect nothing more than an AI chip, they would have left engines running, to leave at a moments notice.

It had been there a very long time, and they were starting it up for the first time.

Think of it like pulling up outside a store and your friend going inside to buy whatever. Instead of leaving the engine running, you've turned off the engine and put the keys in your pocket. What for?

In case you don't remember, PoA came stupidly close to being glassed by a CCS Battlecruiser. If they had just 'pulled up' to pick up Cortana, then they would not have shut down the engines, leaving them open to just such a possibility.

The PoA had to undergo repair and construction in order to put that extra engine(Or whatever) inside it, which made the PoA so fast. This explains why it was docked, it was being retrofitted for the Spartan's mission to capture a prophet.

The PoA had already left Reach when word got out the the Covenant had found Reach. They didn't arrive back until after the invasion was in full swing. If ONI was keeping the Recon Covenant secret the PoA would not have been notified. If it was being refitted why would they leave Reach and turn around?

I'm not sure. I'm not arguing that there aren't inconsistencies, just trying to see if a few can be remedied.

Did the PoA get its second engine or whatever before Reach was invaded? I thought they were getting retrofitted when the invasion started


IIRC no UNSC ships should be capable of interatmosphere flight. Much like in Star Trek, these ships are assembled and maintained in space.
Also, original TFoR circumstances et al; im sure that's been covered before.

  • 09.20.2010 10:17 AM PDT


Posted by: Foley vonAwesom

IIRC no UNSC ships should be capable of interatmosphere flight. Much like in Star Trek, these ships are assembled and maintained in space.
Also, original TFoR circumstances et al; im sure that's been covered before.

We have to accept that they got retconned into being atmosphere capable and move on from there.

  • 09.20.2010 10:47 AM PDT
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Posted by: Achronos
It isn't our shiznit anymore.

Posted by: privet caboose
Posted by: P3P5I
Shouldn't the "universe elite" be trying to remedy these inconsistencies instead of just posting problems? You know, setting an example for the rest of the forum?


Any problem that can be "remedied" has been. That's why this is -UNEXPLAINABLE-

It's because without bending canon we cannot fix these issues. Bungie has to.

Then why don't we bend the canon? And what is the problem with bending the canon as long as it fixes the errors? Some of these errors seem solvable with a few "ifs" and maybes. After all, isn't that what canon consistency is? Thinking of a semi-rational explanation to fit these errors in?

  • 09.20.2010 11:07 AM PDT


Posted by: P3P5I
Posted by: privet caboose
Posted by: P3P5I
Shouldn't the "universe elite" be trying to remedy these inconsistencies instead of just posting problems? You know, setting an example for the rest of the forum?


Any problem that can be "remedied" has been. That's why this is -UNEXPLAINABLE-

It's because without bending canon we cannot fix these issues. Bungie has to.

Then why don't we bend the canon? And what is the problem with bending the canon as long as it fixes the errors? Some of these errors seem solvable with a few "ifs" and maybes. After all, isn't that what canon consistency is? Thinking of a semi-rational explanation to fit these errors in?

When you bend the canon, you create larger and more far-reaching inconsistencies.

  • 09.20.2010 11:08 AM PDT

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Posted by: Hysterical Joker

Posted by: Foley vonAwesom

IIRC no UNSC ships should be capable of interatmosphere flight. Much like in Star Trek, these ships are assembled and maintained in space.
Also, original TFoR circumstances et al; im sure that's been covered before.

We have to accept that they got retconned into being atmosphere capable and move on from there.


In Amber Clad flys in atmosphere on Earth. Forward Unto Dawn flies in atmosphere on the Ark, which also has an atmosphere.

  • 09.20.2010 11:26 AM PDT