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This topic has moved here: Subject: Unexplainable errors in the Halo canon. (Spoilers)
  • Subject: Unexplainable errors in the Halo canon. (Spoilers)
Subject: Unexplainable errors in the Halo canon. (Spoilers)

Posted by: dm8ns
Many will enter, only one will rise to the top and he might not even win....

I am going to post the only way that you could consider the PoA mission in Reach to fit the canon; it happened before the space mission to destroy the NAV database or the PoA landed after they dropped off the Spartans at some time to get the data that Halseys copy of Cortana had gotten.

I know someone who understands the canon more then me will say I'm wrong but this has been what I've been thinking.

  • 03.19.2011 6:08 AM PDT

Don't worry, you're still your mom's favorite Bnet member.

Posted by: privet caboose
HALO REACH IS ALL ONI PROPAGANDA.

Actually I kinda buy that one...Legendary edition comes in a crate with the letter saying "this is the most accurate depiction of the battle we could piece together" or something like that. ONI probably made the battle seem like it was drawn out and we barely lost it, rather than let the public know what a bloodbath it was...
So...by it never happening, it fits canon...

  • 03.19.2011 6:18 AM PDT

Posted by: dm8ns
Many will enter, only one will rise to the top and he might not even win....

Posted by: MegaMuffin16
Posted by: privet caboose
HALO REACH IS ALL ONI PROPAGANDA.

Actually I kinda buy that one...Legendary edition comes in a crate with the letter saying "this is the most accurate depiction of the battle we could piece together" or something like that. ONI probably made the battle seem like it was drawn out and we barely lost it, rather than let the public know what a bloodbath it was...
So...by it never happening, it fits canon...
I think what he's saying is that some of the stuff can't be confirmed because it was pieced together by people at ONI.

  • 03.19.2011 7:00 AM PDT

"Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind." - Albert Einstien

Posted by: chickenlittle
With the incomplete information we have, it is impossible to prove that it is true. It's what makes sense. You could have a massive military installation, complete with hundreds of thousands, to millions of personnel there. It's the main training and R&D grounds for the entire UNSC, in addition to ONI's headquarters. It's also major shipyard. It's far, far easier to maintain a secure environment when you keep the entire planet off-limits, instead of having to worry about threats a few kilometres away in a city. Again, I'll use the Area 51 analogy. There is a massive area around it that nobody is allowed near. This is because it is exclusively a military installation.

First off, Area 51 is top secret. That is the equivalent of Reach's Castle Base. Lets look at this from a realistic standpoint. A planet needs to be self sustaining in order for any colonization to work be it militant or civilian. It is a huge waste of resources to constantly ship in supplies so if they can be found localy that is the best option. Especially when shipments take weeks to months to arrive due to it being space (and slip space only lessens the amount of time, doesn't remove it).

If you look at any military base outside the United States in an established area such as Japan, Germany, South Korea, etc. you will notice that much of its resources are drawn from that area and there are also places for families to live on-base. Even local bases have this (places like Area-51 being an exception, one of the few exceptions). On top of that, as I said before, you need resources. A civilian population can create an economy that feeds and fuels your fighting force.

So seeing families on Reach isn't all that odd simply because it isn't a simple military outpost or base of operations. It is more akin to a modern-day country than a single base.

[Edited on 03.19.2011 12:08 PM PDT]

  • 03.19.2011 12:07 PM PDT

-Panthers are the best.
-Haters gonna hate.
-Who Dares Wins
-If your one of my real life friends. STOP GOOGLE-ING ME.
XD

ive always wondered why the covenant sent such a small team to reach for the first thing. i remember that the covenant found reach after planting a probe on the iroqouis piloted by captain keyes after performing the keyes loop. this probe sent a sliver of information into slipspace with the info on where the craft had gone

  • 03.19.2011 1:29 PM PDT

Posted by: UL7IM4 G33K
Posted by: chickenlittle
With the incomplete information we have, it is impossible to prove that it is true. It's what makes sense. You could have a massive military installation, complete with hundreds of thousands, to millions of personnel there. It's the main training and R&D grounds for the entire UNSC, in addition to ONI's headquarters. It's also major shipyard. It's far, far easier to maintain a secure environment when you keep the entire planet off-limits, instead of having to worry about threats a few kilometres away in a city. Again, I'll use the Area 51 analogy. There is a massive area around it that nobody is allowed near. This is because it is exclusively a military installation.

First off, Area 51 is top secret. That is the equivalent of Reach's Castle Base. Lets look at this from a realistic standpoint. A planet needs to be self sustaining in order for any colonization to work be it militant or civilian. It is a huge waste of resources to constantly ship in supplies so if they can be found localy that is the best option. Especially when shipments take weeks to months to arrive due to it being space (and slip space only lessens the amount of time, doesn't remove it).

If you look at any military base outside the United States in an established area such as Japan, Germany, South Korea, etc. you will notice that much of its resources are drawn from that area and there are also places for families to live on-base. Even local bases have this (places like Area-51 being an exception, one of the few exceptions). On top of that, as I said before, you need resources. A civilian population can create an economy that feeds and fuels your fighting force.

So seeing families on Reach isn't all that odd simply because it isn't a simple military outpost or base of operations. It is more akin to a modern-day country than a single base.
Eh, makes sense.

  • 03.19.2011 4:37 PM PDT

Posted by: chickenlittle
With the incomplete information we have, it is impossible to prove that it is true. It's what makes sense. You could have a massive military installation, complete with hundreds of thousands, to millions of personnel there. It's the main training and R&D grounds for the entire UNSC, in addition to ONI's headquarters. It's also major shipyard. It's far, far easier to maintain a secure environment when you keep the entire planet off-limits, instead of having to worry about threats a few kilometres away in a city. Again, I'll use the Area 51 analogy. There is a massive area around it that nobody is allowed near. This is because it is exclusively a military installation.


Ul7IM4 G33K pretty much summed up what I would have said. While Reach does have many top secret facilities and such, think about it, Reach is a massive planet, it's not like they have something the population at large shouldn't discover or have knowledge of every two feet. Reach is much more like the Pentagon in my analogy, it is the center of all UNSC military activity, but that does not rule out a strong civilian presence.

Absence of evidence is most certainly not evidence of absence. However, when something makes much more sense a certain way, that's usually the solution. All of I've seen and heard about the Mombasa thing indicates to me that Truth destroyed the defenses of Earth, then ignored the rest of the planet. This does not make sense, and he should have sent other ships to harass other defending elements of the human fleet so- Wait. That makes no sense either! The human fleets would have been hunted down and obliterated, yet they were not. Uh-oh! Still, the lack of attacks on other continents is also absence of evidence.

Truth did have ships other than in East Africa, remember in Ghosts of Onyx?

  • 03.19.2011 5:50 PM PDT

Ghosts of Onyx involved Elites that were no longer in the thrall of Truth.

  • 03.19.2011 8:18 PM PDT

Ghosts of Onyx also talks about skirmishes and small battles taking place around the planet.

  • 03.19.2011 8:21 PM PDT

Quotes & page numbers please.

  • 03.19.2011 9:04 PM PDT

I don't like cocaine, I just like the way it smells.

Posted by: OrderedComa
Posted by: chickenlittle
With the incomplete information we have, it is impossible to prove that it is true. It's what makes sense. You could have a massive military installation, complete with hundreds of thousands, to millions of personnel there. It's the main training and R&D grounds for the entire UNSC, in addition to ONI's headquarters. It's also major shipyard. It's far, far easier to maintain a secure environment when you keep the entire planet off-limits, instead of having to worry about threats a few kilometres away in a city. Again, I'll use the Area 51 analogy. There is a massive area around it that nobody is allowed near. This is because it is exclusively a military installation.


Ul7IM4 G33K pretty much summed up what I would have said. While Reach does have many top secret facilities and such, think about it, Reach is a massive planet, it's not like they have something the population at large shouldn't discover or have knowledge of every two feet. Reach is much more like the Pentagon in my analogy, it is the center of all UNSC military activity, but that does not rule out a strong civilian presence.

Absence of evidence is most certainly not evidence of absence. However, when something makes much more sense a certain way, that's usually the solution. All of I've seen and heard about the Mombasa thing indicates to me that Truth destroyed the defenses of Earth, then ignored the rest of the planet. This does not make sense, and he should have sent other ships to harass other defending elements of the human fleet so- Wait. That makes no sense either! The human fleets would have been hunted down and obliterated, yet they were not. Uh-oh! Still, the lack of attacks on other continents is also absence of evidence.

Truth did have ships other than in East Africa, remember in Ghosts of Onyx?


And think about it man! All the U.S. needs is Washington D.C. to command 99% of the most successful country in the world! Why would someone need THAT much space (referring to the size of Reach) to command the U.N.S.C. I couldn't even THINK of a way to use up that much space if I wanted!

  • 03.19.2011 9:21 PM PDT

Quite amusing that you all keep going on and on about that point after I already ceded it was a plausible possibility.

  • 03.19.2011 11:05 PM PDT

Live to Laugh


Posted by: chickenlittle
Quotes & page numbers please.


Chapter 23 Page 203-205

"...Mount Erebus...Yucatan Peninsula..."

"Centennial Orbital Elevator, Cuba...up the orbital elevator, past a whisper haze of clouds, a pair of dots-each a kilometer and a half long Covenant ship, orbited."


Also, I never finished the Halo 3 prequel comics (called Uprising?) but aren't there Covenant ships attacking Cleveland and preparing to glass it?

[Edited on 03.20.2011 10:03 AM PDT]

  • 03.20.2011 10:01 AM PDT

I don't like cocaine, I just like the way it smells.

Yeah, I was about to mention that. Because at least Ackerson did one good thing before he died! Well, technically he made hundreds of innocent people die for no reason.

  • 03.20.2011 11:27 AM PDT

GROSSMAN: Do you think of the Culture as a utopia? Would you live in it, if you could?

BANKS: Good grief yes, to both! What's not to like? ...Well, unless you're actually a fascist or a power junkie or sincerely believe that money rather than happiness is what really matters in life. And even people with those bizarre beliefs are catered for in the Culture, albeit in extreme-immersion VR environments.

KOTOR

Posted by: Nuke incoming
Posted by: MegaMuffin16
Posted by: privet caboose
HALO REACH IS ALL ONI PROPAGANDA.

Actually I kinda buy that one...Legendary edition comes in a crate with the letter saying "this is the most accurate depiction of the battle we could piece together" or something like that. ONI probably made the battle seem like it was drawn out and we barely lost it, rather than let the public know what a bloodbath it was...
So...by it never happening, it fits canon...
I think what he's saying is that some of the stuff can't be confirmed because it was pieced together by people at ONI.


I posted my thoughts on this a while ago in Coma's Canon fixes thread (I think it was his) I'll see if I can find my thoughts...

EDIT: Found it :D Searchbar is my friend :P
With the Limited and Legendary editions of Reach, there was a piece of paper which says:

You are now in possession of the most complete and accurate account that anyone has been able to assemble of SPECWAR/GroupTHREE/NOBLE's actions during the final weeks before the Covenant glassed Reach.

I suspect your interest in all of this has something to do with your involvement in Operation WHITE GLOVE. Coincidentally, Halsey made multiple inquiries about NOBLE just as everything started going all to hell. She's the one loose end that may never be wrapped up satisfactorily - no body, no closure. In any event, I secured the next best thing for you. Section 0 has had it for some time - so there's that - but I think you'll find enough intel in here for your purposes.

-W


Who is W?
And this does leave a bit of wiggle room with the story, as it says "The most complete and accurate account that anyone has been able to assemble of SPECWAR/GroupTHREE/NOBLE's actions during the final weeks before the Covenant glassed Reach."Therefore, the events depicted in the game can be classified as unreliable intel, subject to human bias because they are the "most accurate" anyone has been able to produce. This does not necessarily mean they are the correct series of events that took place. They could have been exaggerated greatly by ONI for propaganda purposes. For example ONI would have increased the size of the Supercarrier so that when they blew it up, it showed civilians and military that the Covenant can be beaten, no matter how big their ships are.

This also means that ONI would have edited out the less interesting parts, or parts that showed the UNSC losing badly, and edited in parts such as the PoA being on Reach and then taking off, because they (ONI) thought that a single Longsword was not exciting enough to boost the troops' morale. This opens up the idea that ONI skewed the dates of the entire conflict, so as to make it look like the UNSC can hold out against the Covenant, albeit not indefinitely. Again, this would be morale boosting.

This means that the Pillar of Autumn is not on Reach, and the Cortana Fragment was picked up by Keyes, albeit in a Longsword, and the interactive disc (Halo: Reach game disc) has been edited by ONI to improve the storyline, to make it more epic, if you will.

Noble Team's involvements in the conflict could also have been manipulated for storyline purposes, such as the Long Night of Solace action. It may have just been shot by an ODP, but this was changed to make the protagonists seem more involved int the defence of Reach. This implies that Jorge died in a less heroic way, such as being assassinated by an Elite or he was blown up by a Wraith tank.

ONI could have changed the details of Noble Team's deaths, so as to make the story more tragic, which leads me to the possibility that Noble Six never died, as his actions in "Lone Wolf" are falsified for the purposes of a good war movie. The reason I say they were falsified is because there were no living UNSC soldiers or civilians in the area, and the whole area was glassed anyway, erasing any recordings the helmet cameras might have made. Therefore, Six may still be alive, and floating through space in a Pelican, or on another Human colony.

The part of the letter I quoted be interpreted as:
"We (ONI) had a cursory look round Reach at the end of the war, found this Journal, and made up most of the rest of what's on the interactive disc (Reach game disc) to suit our needs, and show how Noble team sacrificed themselves to defend Reach."

I hate to say it but Bungie covered themselves pretty well with this one letter. Essentially this letter could make the whole Halo:Reach plot irrelevant, and there is actually another story, yet to be told.

Orphius.


[Edited on 03.20.2011 1:06 PM PDT]

  • 03.20.2011 1:03 PM PDT

The letter thing is interesting... but the problem is that it's classified material, it can't really work out to boost the morale. Though that doesn't mean things are more accurate or that ONI didn't change things to their advantage to the people who are concerned with the interactive disc.

  • 03.20.2011 1:21 PM PDT


Posted by: chickenlittle
Ghosts of Onyx involved Elites that were no longer in the thrall of Truth.


Not completely, the Separatists were the main characters from the Covenant's point of view in GoO. When we first see Blue Team in the story though they're fighting off Brutes from that Centennial Space Elevator thing. And they had just finished up an undersea op dealing with other Covenant forces, and the ones on the space elevator at least, were all Brutes.

  • 03.20.2011 1:37 PM PDT


Posted by: Echo312

Posted by: chickenlittle
Quotes & page numbers please.


Chapter 23 Page 203-205

"...Mount Erebus...Yucatan Peninsula..."

"Centennial Orbital Elevator, Cuba...up the orbital elevator, past a whisper haze of clouds, a pair of dots-each a kilometer and a half long Covenant ship, orbited."


Also, I never finished the Halo 3 prequel comics (called Uprising?) but aren't there Covenant ships attacking Cleveland and preparing to glass it?


Thank you :D I would have posted the page numbers myself, but I don't actually own the book.

And yeah, there were Covenant forces in Cleveland, and they were part of the Loyalist faction, so yeah, part of Truth's fleet.

  • 03.20.2011 1:38 PM PDT


Posted by: Evil Johnny
The letter thing is interesting... but the problem is that it's classified material, it can't really work out to boost the morale. Though that doesn't mean things are more accurate or that ONI didn't change things to their advantage to the people who are concerned with the interactive disc.


Well, by the time of the letter + 'disk' being sent, I don't think they would need or care to 'make things look better' for morale, as the war was over.

  • 03.20.2011 2:01 PM PDT

Posted by: Echo312

Posted by: chickenlittle
Quotes & page numbers please.


Chapter 23 Page 203-205

"...Mount Erebus...Yucatan Peninsula..."

"Centennial Orbital Elevator, Cuba...up the orbital elevator, past a whisper haze of clouds, a pair of dots-each a kilometer and a half long Covenant ship, orbited."


Also, I never finished the Halo 3 prequel comics (called Uprising?) but aren't there Covenant ships attacking Cleveland and preparing to glass it?
Oh, I thought you were talking about Ghosts of Onyx when you said "ghosts". Never mind.

  • 03.20.2011 9:32 PM PDT

Live to Laugh


Posted by: chickenlittle
Posted by: Echo312

Posted by: chickenlittle
Quotes & page numbers please.


Chapter 23 Page 203-205

"...Mount Erebus...Yucatan Peninsula..."

"Centennial Orbital Elevator, Cuba...up the orbital elevator, past a whisper haze of clouds, a pair of dots-each a kilometer and a half long Covenant ship, orbited."


Also, I never finished the Halo 3 prequel comics (called Uprising?) but aren't there Covenant ships attacking Cleveland and preparing to glass it?
Oh, I thought you were talking about Ghosts of Onyx when you said "ghosts". Never mind.

Everything above the "also" is in Ghosts of Onyx.

  • 03.21.2011 3:38 AM PDT
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Funky is Fun.

Nice work!

  • 03.21.2011 5:42 AM PDT

Posted by: Echo312

Posted by: chickenlittle
Posted by: Echo312

Posted by: chickenlittle
Quotes & page numbers please.


Chapter 23 Page 203-205

"...Mount Erebus...Yucatan Peninsula..."

"Centennial Orbital Elevator, Cuba...up the orbital elevator, past a whisper haze of clouds, a pair of dots-each a kilometer and a half long Covenant ship, orbited."


Also, I never finished the Halo 3 prequel comics (called Uprising?) but aren't there Covenant ships attacking Cleveland and preparing to glass it?
Oh, I thought you were talking about Ghosts of Onyx when you said "ghosts". Never mind.

Everything above the "also" is in Ghosts of Onyx.
The planet Onyx.

  • 03.21.2011 2:05 PM PDT

If you can read this, that means I'm not a Shaolin monk...

yet.


Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron

Posted by: Evil Johnny
The letter thing is interesting... but the problem is that it's classified material, it can't really work out to boost the morale. Though that doesn't mean things are more accurate or that ONI didn't change things to their advantage to the people who are concerned with the interactive disc.


Well, by the time of the letter + 'disk' being sent, I don't think they would need or care to 'make things look better' for morale, as the war was over.

It's ONI.

Either way, we don't know for sure if the Halo: Reach story is real, but we do know for sure that The Fall of Reach story is actually real.

  • 03.22.2011 12:47 AM PDT


Posted by: TheGreenAlloy

Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron

Posted by: Evil Johnny
The letter thing is interesting... but the problem is that it's classified material, it can't really work out to boost the morale. Though that doesn't mean things are more accurate or that ONI didn't change things to their advantage to the people who are concerned with the interactive disc.


Well, by the time of the letter + 'disk' being sent, I don't think they would need or care to 'make things look better' for morale, as the war was over.

It's ONI.

Either way, we don't know for sure if the Halo: Reach story is real, but we do know for sure that The Fall of Reach story is actually real.


I'm in agreement with the people saying "why would ONI need to fudge up the details if the war is over" also, why would they be keeping it secret from someone of either superior or of equal position to the sender of the letter? Especially since it makes it clear in the letter that the Spartans in the account are SIIIs, which were supposed to be a complete secret.

I think it's fairly obvious that Reach is completely true, as is TFoR, especially since that letter comes right out and say "This is the most complete account of the Fall of Reach that we have compiled.".

  • 03.22.2011 10:16 AM PDT