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  • Subject: Unexplainable errors in the Halo canon. (Spoilers)
Subject: Unexplainable errors in the Halo canon. (Spoilers)
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@privet caboose
Apparently Reach had at least some ODPs from the year 2527.

Reach and Earth started building ODPs from close to the start of the war. Earth's defense grid, however, was only completed a couple of months after Reach fell. I found the information on Halopedia.

Assuming Reach and Earth were of similar importance (which seems to be the case), the UNSC would assign roughly equal assets to each planet. ODPs would cost almost as many resources as a ship (minus the slipspace drive and engines, but with the thrice more powerful mac cannon). I just don't think it's possible for the UNSC to build the equivalent of 280 ships between the time Reach fell and the Covenant found Earth. This would be done using only the resources found around Earth, remember.

Those 300 supermac cannons probably took at least a couple of years for them to all be built. If Earth and Reach were going to be equally well defended, then a greater amount (greater than 20) of ODPs should have been present at the fall of Reach.

@ Evil Johnny
I still think it would have been a characteristically evil thing for ONI to do...sacrificing a planet full of civilians to the Covenant in order to save Earth.
ONI would have had months or years to prepare this contingency plan...and no, the Covenant appearing at Reach was in no way unexpected. They just hoped it would never happen.

I think it was at the back of the new edition of The Flood. It had something to do with either a journalist/reporter or a historian figuring out that Cortana can't have known about what the Ark did...or about installation 04B.

Cortana had all the information that Guilty Spark had, right? Except that Guilty Spark had no idea what the Ark did (aside from activate all Halos).

So what was the way that Cortana knew to destroy the flood, without firing the rings? How did she get this information?

I'm still undecided as to whether or not this "way to destroy the Flood" had anything to do with the information picked up on Reach...


[Edited on 03.23.2011 5:41 PM PDT]

  • 03.23.2011 3:40 PM PDT


Posted by: Astronut7
.

So what was the way that Cortana knew to destroy the flood, without firing the rings? How did she get this information?



Don't shoot me down if I am wrong (I am not so much into the universe like some) but it is impossible that the floods tell it her?

  • 03.23.2011 5:49 PM PDT
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Posted by: Evil Johnny
Not necessarily. We could give the example with big American or Canadian army bases. Usually (at least here in Canada) the biggest bases are in small cities/towns.


True. However, as you yourself said, those same bases are usually very close to the major population centers. Valcartier, on a map of Canada, is only an hour away from Quebec city

Yes, I know that Reach is only 10.5 light years away from Earth--but that's still four days before reinforcements can arrive. Whilst this might have made sense against insurrectionist activities, it doesn't seem to make sense against the Covenant.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but as far as I remember they were there, only Bungie made Reach's space look deserted while it was not. There was quite some space combat in The Fall of Reach.

Yes, there was a massive space battle in the Fall of Reach. It was quite something...although I was just so happy that Bungie put any space combat in the game.
The trouble is, that space battle in tFoR (according to the game's timeline) happened after the Long Night of Solace mission--so you wouldn't have seen anything else.
Also--space is huge...it would be quite easy to lose 20 ODPs and 100 ships...what if at that time they were around the other side of the planet, which would make sense if a branch of the military was trying to keep the invasion secret.

However, my original point was, was that there were 300 ODPs at Earth only a month later, whilst there was only 20 ODPs at Reach. Reach=UNSC military stronghold. What happened?

And yes, the PoA lifting off from Reach was fan service. And what a fantastic fan service it was.
My point still stands. Major space battle=heavy damage to PoA not shown in Halo: CE.

@KonnichiwaBE
It's possible that the flood told it to her, but I can't imagine why the Flood would be so stupid as to do that. Good idea, though.

[Edited on 03.23.2011 6:44 PM PDT]

  • 03.23.2011 6:05 PM PDT


@Astronut7: To stop the ark? Stupid but at the same time stopping the ark also let survive the flood... I admit though I have not really an idea how they stopped the flood must look into it..

[Edited on 03.23.2011 6:22 PM PDT]

  • 03.23.2011 6:18 PM PDT
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To stop the ark? Stupid but at the same time stopping the ark also let survive the ark... I admit though I have not really an idea how they stopped the flood must look into it..

The Ark was almost finished building installation 04B--to replace the first one the MC destroyed. MC activated 04B. As it was incomplete, it only wiped out the Flood in the local area instead of all intelligent life in the entire galaxy.

The trouble is, if the gravemind told Cortana, then how did the gravemind know?

[Edited on 03.23.2011 6:24 PM PDT]

  • 03.23.2011 6:23 PM PDT


Posted by: Astronut7
To stop the ark? Stupid but at the same time stopping the ark also let survive the ark... I admit though I have not really an idea how they stopped the flood must look into it..

The Ark was almost finished building installation 04B--to replace the first one the MC destroyed. MC activated 04B. As it was incomplete, it only wiped out the Flood in the local area instead of the entire galaxy.

The trouble is, if the gravemind told Cortana, then how did the gravemind know?


Isn't it true that the flood also absorps knowledge? Didn't the Prophets know what the Ark did (considering the Flood catch one of the prophets in Halo 2)...

And thx for the info about what happened with the flood in Halo 3... somehow I never thought about what happened with the flood or maybe I forgot that is also possible =p.

  • 03.23.2011 6:26 PM PDT
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@KonnichiwaBE
Whilst it's true that the Flood absorbs knowledge...no, the prophets did not know what the Ark did at all. They thought that activating the rings would permit them to go on the 'Great Journey'--some form of ascension, I suppose--big, big mistake.

And btw, you're welcome.

[Edited on 03.23.2011 6:38 PM PDT]

  • 03.23.2011 6:33 PM PDT


Posted by: Astronut7
@KonnichiwaBE
Whilst it's true that the Flood absorbs knowledge...no, the prophets did not know what the Ark did at all. They thought that activating the rings would permit them to go on the 'Great Journey'--some form of ascension, I suppose.

And btw, you're welcome.


I see, I always thought the prophets knew they were lying but without the covenant and their religion bull-blam!- they would have been easy victimes to the Elites and the Brutes.. Activating the Halo rings would end their life but it is the same if they would have told the truth.... I mean when the Elites stepped out of the Covenant they must have known that what they believed was false;...



[Edited on 03.23.2011 6:43 PM PDT]

  • 03.23.2011 6:43 PM PDT


Posted by: KonnichiwaBE

Posted by: Astronut7
@KonnichiwaBE
Whilst it's true that the Flood absorbs knowledge...no, the prophets did not know what the Ark did at all. They thought that activating the rings would permit them to go on the 'Great Journey'--some form of ascension, I suppose.

And btw, you're welcome.


I see, I always thought the prophets knew they were lying but without the covenant and their religion bull-blam!- they would have been easy victimes to the Elites and the Brutes.. Activating the Halo rings would end their life but it is the same if they would have told the truth.... I mean when the Elites stepped out of the Covenant they must have known that what they believed was false;...



No, the Prophets totally believed all they said about the Great Journey, except for maybe Truth, he seemed like he might have known, or somewhat guessed, the true purpose the Halos. The only lies we know the Prophets told (and even they it was only Regret, Truth, and Mercy) that we know of is that Humanity are abominations and an affront to the Forerunners that must be destroyed.

The schism between the Covenant Loyalists and Elites was not about the truth of the Covenant's religion, the Elites only found out the truth once they had left, and even then not immediately after, the Elites split because the Prophets broke the oath the Covenant was founded on and had ordered the fulscale genocide of the Elites, that's why the Covenant fell apart.

  • 03.23.2011 6:54 PM PDT
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* KonnichiwaBE
Interesting theory, but no, the Covenant were all very devoted to their religion...until they finally were forced to see the truth, anyway.
Some Elites (like the Arbiter) were quicker on the uptake than others--unlike the Brute Tartarus, who believed until his death.

The prophets did lie in Contact Harvest, though. All humans showed up on their scanning equipment as Forerunner Artifacts--this meant that it was possible that some Forerunners had been left behind during the Great Journey--which would have destroyed the Covenant religion. The subsequent genocidal campaign against humanity was because any change in the Covenant religion was potentially harmful to the Prophets. Cowardly b***** :)

But, in actual fact, the Prophets had less accurate information on what the Ark did than the humans.

Also--OrderedComa (above) provides a very accurate explanation as well.

[Edited on 03.23.2011 6:59 PM PDT]

  • 03.23.2011 6:56 PM PDT

Signatures are for squares.

I'm going to ask for a source page on the claim of "Mac platforms were being built in 2527." I've never once seen that in any source of canon.

Also, why benefit does "throwing Reach to the Covenant" have? There isn't any. The Covenant knew that wasn't their homeworld. And ONI bases stacked with information and locations of Earth were all over the planet. Plus, if they were really "throwing it to the wolves" why recall 66% of the fleet to try and defend the planet? That theory makes no sense at all.

  • 03.23.2011 7:26 PM PDT
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@privet caboose
It's on Halopedia...on the page about ODps. According to them, they got their reference from Halo Evolutions--which I haven't got a copy of, so I can't check.

Okay. As I said, that idea was just thrown out there...It would have made sense for ONI to try something like it. Knew it had to be shot down sometime...
But, still, one section of the Cole Protocol was to delete all information as to the location of Earth...that could easily be modified in another section to something along the lines of "delete all information about Earth and her colonies."
Again...its something that I think ONI would do if they could, and they had years to prepare for it.
I can't quite remember...did it say that 60% was recalled only during the game? Have we figured out where the 100 ships that were supposed to be stationed at Reach went in the game?
As far as I know, there isn't any concrete evidence for this idea I have...it was just a suspicison.

Btw, when did the canon definitively say that the Covenant knew that Reach wasn't the homeworld of humanity? I just can't seem to remember it being said, or even implied. Earth was found completely by accident, right?



[Edited on 03.24.2011 4:36 AM PDT]

  • 03.24.2011 4:34 AM PDT


Posted by: Astronut7
@privet caboose
It's on Halopedia...on the page about ODps. According to them, they got their reference from Halo Evolutions--which I haven't got a copy of, so I can't check.

Okay. As I said, that idea was just thrown out there...It would have made sense for ONI to try something like it. Knew it had to be shot down sometime...
But, still, one section of the Cole Protocol was to delete all information as to the location of Earth...that could easily be modified in another section to something along the lines of "delete all information about Earth and her colonies."
Again...its something that I think ONI would do if they could, and they had years to prepare for it.
I can't quite remember...did it say that 60% was recalled only during the game? Have we figured out where the 100 ships that were supposed to be stationed at Reach went in the game?
As far as I know, there isn't any concrete evidence for this idea I have...it was just a suspicison.

Btw, when did the canon definitively say that the Covenant knew that Reach wasn't the homeworld of humanity? I just can't seem to remember it being said, or even implied. Earth was found completely by accident, right?



I think the Cole Protocol does state to erase all data that could lead to Earth or any other colonies, I know it forbade ships from jumping directly to Earth or another colony during the war.

Yes, Dot says something along the lines of "all fleets have been recalled to Reach 60% will be arriving in 48 hours."
The home fleet of Reach would be out be the SMACs probably, and we don't know where exactly most of the events of Reach take place in relation to the SMACs or major locations mentioned in TFoR, it could be two miles away, it could be on the side of the planet, we really don't know. Bungie did say though (in one of the weekly updates I believe) that the events of Reach are not in the same area of TFoR.

Also, there wouldn't be a need to see any of the defense fleet, because Kat thought up a plan that would waste much less lives than throwing the defense fleet at the LNoS. SO the ships are still there, we just didn't see them.

I don't think it ever did, I don't think anything says they thought Reach was humanity's homeworld either though, but I wouldn't be surprised if they came to that conclusion, seeing how the UNSC had more resources on Reach than anywhere else (aside from Earth) the Covenant had found Humanity, and the UNSC were defending Reach tooth and nail to beat the Covies.

Yes and no. Regret didn't know the location of Earth, but Truth did, and he had kept it secret. In First Strike Truth is massing a fleet to go and destroy Earth, but Chief and some of the other Spartans stop the plan. And Truth being the manipulative bastard he is, still keeps the information to himself and then Regret blunders onto Earth, and vwala, Halo 2 happens.

  • 03.24.2011 8:59 AM PDT
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Deva Path


Posted by: DecepticonCobra

We are all going to get banned aren't we?


Posted by: OrderedComa

Posted by: Astronut7
@privet caboose
It's on Halopedia...on the page about ODps. According to them, they got their reference from Halo Evolutions--which I haven't got a copy of, so I can't check.

Okay. As I said, that idea was just thrown out there...It would have made sense for ONI to try something like it. Knew it had to be shot down sometime...
But, still, one section of the Cole Protocol was to delete all information as to the location of Earth...that could easily be modified in another section to something along the lines of "delete all information about Earth and her colonies."
Again...its something that I think ONI would do if they could, and they had years to prepare for it.
I can't quite remember...did it say that 60% was recalled only during the game? Have we figured out where the 100 ships that were supposed to be stationed at Reach went in the game?
As far as I know, there isn't any concrete evidence for this idea I have...it was just a suspicison.

Btw, when did the canon definitively say that the Covenant knew that Reach wasn't the homeworld of humanity? I just can't seem to remember it being said, or even implied. Earth was found completely by accident, right?



I don't think it ever did, I don't think anything says they thought Reach was humanity's homeworld either though, Yes and no.

Regret didn't know the location of Earth, but Truth did, and he had kept it secret. In First Strike Truth is massing a fleet to go and destroy Earth, but Chief and some of the other Spartans stop the plan. And Truth being the manipulative bastard he is, still keeps the information to himself and then Regret blunders onto Earth, and vwala, Halo 2 happens.


IT was stated that the Covenant thought that Reach was our homeworld due to the amount of forces we had there. Just like Harvest. It's hard giving a source for something like that since it is so old and nearly common knowledge for majority of us.

And it was Regrets fleet that was ammasing in First strike, the crystal shards were just given to Truth. It was Regrets personaly fleet that went to Earth without knowing it was Earth.

  • 03.24.2011 9:48 AM PDT


Posted by: grey101

Posted by: OrderedComa

Posted by: Astronut7
@privet caboose
It's on Halopedia...on the page about ODps. According to them, they got their reference from Halo Evolutions--which I haven't got a copy of, so I can't check.

Okay. As I said, that idea was just thrown out there...It would have made sense for ONI to try something like it. Knew it had to be shot down sometime...
But, still, one section of the Cole Protocol was to delete all information as to the location of Earth...that could easily be modified in another section to something along the lines of "delete all information about Earth and her colonies."
Again...its something that I think ONI would do if they could, and they had years to prepare for it.
I can't quite remember...did it say that 60% was recalled only during the game? Have we figured out where the 100 ships that were supposed to be stationed at Reach went in the game?
As far as I know, there isn't any concrete evidence for this idea I have...it was just a suspicison.

Btw, when did the canon definitively say that the Covenant knew that Reach wasn't the homeworld of humanity? I just can't seem to remember it being said, or even implied. Earth was found completely by accident, right?



I don't think it ever did, I don't think anything says they thought Reach was humanity's homeworld either though, Yes and no.

Regret didn't know the location of Earth, but Truth did, and he had kept it secret. In First Strike Truth is massing a fleet to go and destroy Earth, but Chief and some of the other Spartans stop the plan. And Truth being the manipulative bastard he is, still keeps the information to himself and then Regret blunders onto Earth, and vwala, Halo 2 happens.


IT was stated that the Covenant thought that Reach was our homeworld due to the amount of forces we had there. Just like Harvest. It's hard giving a source for something like that since it is so old and nearly common knowledge for majority of us.

And it was Regrets fleet that was ammasing in First strike, the crystal shards were just given to Truth. It was Regrets personaly fleet that went to Earth without knowing it was Earth.


Ugh, my post before this was worded rather horribly, no wonder you're giving me a friendly correction XD
What I meant to say was "I don't think anything ever said they didn't think Reach was humanity's homeworld, and I don't remember anything saying they did either". And the "Yes and no" was supposed to go with the bit about Regret and finding Earth.

I'm pretty sure that it was Truth who was behind Unyielding Heirophant and its fleet, if it had been Regret, then he would have tried to get a huge fleet together again before he invaded Earth, and he was completely surprised at finding humanity there at all. If he had been the one behind the Heirophant, then he and his troops would not have been so surprised at finding the UNSC at Earth when they arrived. What said it was Regret's fleet at Unyielding Heirophant? Everything I've ever read, or anyone I've asked, has always said it was Truth's.

  • 03.24.2011 10:32 AM PDT
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Deva Path


Posted by: DecepticonCobra

We are all going to get banned aren't we?

In Cole:Protocol Truth goes behind Regrets back with a jackal human trade agreement. Then after it was found out he acted like he didn't know about it.


In first strike Regrets fleet was massing to go to Earth. After nearly all the ships were destroyed the few remaing still went to earth but somehow Regret "forgot" or wasn't told of earth being our homeworld hence his retreat.


The prophets don't work together nor do they share info. We all know that they knew of reach from the crystal artifact but didn't know was a stronghold for us. Regret knew of Earth due to the portal but didn't expect us to be there despite first strike.


It was never explained how regret knew then forgot much like it was never stated how he found installation 5

  • 03.24.2011 11:22 AM PDT
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Im gey very very gey u wanna inky dinky fight?

  • 03.24.2011 11:43 AM PDT

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Posted by: Astronut7
@privet caboose
It's on Halopedia...on the page about ODps. According to them, they got their reference from Halo Evolutions--which I haven't got a copy of, so I can't check.


Alright I did a quick check. Unfortunately I didn't have the original copy with me at this moment so I had to check with the volume 1 version. It checks out.

The page number puts it smack dab in the middle of Pariah, and there's a clear reference to Soren and Partch acknowledging that the ODPs were up and could shoot down their Longsword (among other things) as they tried to escape Reach. Considering that Soren is 16 at this time period it would put the date somewhere in 2527. Two years after the augmentations on the Spartans.

  • 03.24.2011 11:50 AM PDT
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Posted by: OrderedComa
I'm pretty sure that it was Truth who was behind Unyielding Heirophant and its fleet, if it had been Regret, then he would have tried to get a huge fleet together again before he invaded Earth, and he was completely surprised at finding humanity there at all


It was Truth...I just double-checked with the article Ten Twenty from Waypoint.

Does anyone know how Truth managed to find Earth's location, and/or when? (Before/After Reach)

Also: was it just the game that stated about the reinforcements, or did the book say it, too? Because I don't remember it being in the book.

Anyway, I'll restate my idea as a question, seeing as it might not be completely shot down yet.
Does anyone think that ONI, or another branch of the military, may have had a contingency plan that involved pretending that Reach was humanities' homeworld?
At least it would give Earth some more time to rebuild her fleet...

[Edited on 03.24.2011 12:57 PM PDT]

  • 03.24.2011 12:41 PM PDT
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@StealthSlasher2
Thanks for checking that out. Much appreciated.

@grey101
It was Truth that amassed the fleet--chack the article Ten Twenty on Halo Waypoint.
Thanks for the info on the prophets and the events in Cole Protocol, though (need to find that book somewhere).
I would assume that Regret found the co-ordinates for Halo installation 05 from the Forerunner structure that they were excavating--however, this is only an assumption on my part.

[Edited on 03.24.2011 1:16 PM PDT]

  • 03.24.2011 12:47 PM PDT

"I may not be perfect, but always been true."

Posted by: Astronut7

Posted by: OrderedComa
I'm pretty sure that it was Truth who was behind Unyielding Heirophant and its fleet, if it had been Regret, then he would have tried to get a huge fleet together again before he invaded Earth, and he was completely surprised at finding humanity there at all


It was Truth...I just double-checked with the article Ten Twenty from Waypoint.

Does anyone know how Truth managed to find Earth's location, and/or when?


Well, from what I understand, Regret found Earth due to the portal to the ark being there, cause they had this forerunner tech discovering things, luminaries or whatever.

So perhaps Truth learned of Earth's location the same way as Regret, he however didn't told anybody, he was a genius to be honest.

  • 03.24.2011 1:05 PM PDT
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@RKOSNAKE
Sorry, I misspoke. As far as the Covenant knew, the location of Earth (humanities' homeworld, which they didn't know the location of) was different to the location of the gateway to the Ark.
Truth found out where the location of Earth was--didn't tell anyone.
Regret found out where the location of the gateway to the Ark was--didn't tell anyone, and rushed a fleet to that location.
Truth found out about about Regret's actions (incl. where Regret was going), and mobilized his fleet in order to save Regrets' fleet.
The question was, how did Truth find out about the location of humanities' homeworld?

[Edited on 03.24.2011 1:26 PM PDT]

  • 03.24.2011 1:25 PM PDT

"I may not be perfect, but always been true."

@Astronut

I honestly don't have an idea, but my theory still is that he foud Earth with a luminary. He was going to attack Earth with his 500 + ships fleet but it was destroyed along with the Unyielding Hierophant.

Regret didn't knew that Earth was humanity's homeworld that's why he just got a small fleet instead of a big fleet like Truth was going to do. Truth, having discovered that Earth had the portal to the Ark, rushed with a bigger fleet just because of the portal, cause I seriously doubt that he cared about Regret.

This was proved when he called back the Phantoms he had sent to "save" Regret, it was all part of his master plan.

Edit: Sorry, I typed Spirits instead of Phantoms xD

[Edited on 03.24.2011 1:33 PM PDT]

  • 03.24.2011 1:33 PM PDT


Posted by: Astronut7
I'm not sure I understand, if it's not a "God view", what's the view? It is certainly not told by someone, or as a letter to someone... It just describes events from an outer, unbiased and objective perspective, that's what I meant by "God view". I'm not sure I understand how such view could be wrong, it would mean the "God" looks at the wrong thing.

It's not that the "God" is looking at the wrong thing, it's just that the "God" is choosing not to tell the reader/player something at that point in time.
As far as I know, if you look at any source of canon told from a "God" view, the "God" is usually only focusing on the thought processes of one character/what that character senses, before switching to another character. So, basically, despite the "God" knowing everything going on in the war at that time, it's restricted only to what one character is thinking/seeing at the moment--that's pretty much the only way that the "God" can impart all, or even most, of the relevant information to the reader.


The thing is that there's contradictions... particularly about Halsey's knowledge of the Spartan IIIs, GoO says she hasn't met any.

  • 03.24.2011 1:40 PM PDT


Posted by: Evil Johnny

Posted by: Astronut7
I'm not sure I understand, if it's not a "God view", what's the view? It is certainly not told by someone, or as a letter to someone... It just describes events from an outer, unbiased and objective perspective, that's what I meant by "God view". I'm not sure I understand how such view could be wrong, it would mean the "God" looks at the wrong thing.

It's not that the "God" is looking at the wrong thing, it's just that the "God" is choosing not to tell the reader/player something at that point in time.
As far as I know, if you look at any source of canon told from a "God" view, the "God" is usually only focusing on the thought processes of one character/what that character senses, before switching to another character. So, basically, despite the "God" knowing everything going on in the war at that time, it's restricted only to what one character is thinking/seeing at the moment--that's pretty much the only way that the "God" can impart all, or even most, of the relevant information to the reader.


The thing is that there's contradictions... particularly about Halsey's knowledge of the Spartan IIIs, GoO says she hasn't met any.


But, there is a loophole. She doesn't know Noble Team is Spartan IIIs.

  • 03.24.2011 1:56 PM PDT