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  • Subject: Unexplainable errors in the Halo canon. (Spoilers)
Subject: Unexplainable errors in the Halo canon. (Spoilers)

"I may not be perfect, but always been true."

Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron

Posted by: Evil Johnny

Posted by: Astronut7
I'm not sure I understand, if it's not a "God view", what's the view? It is certainly not told by someone, or as a letter to someone... It just describes events from an outer, unbiased and objective perspective, that's what I meant by "God view". I'm not sure I understand how such view could be wrong, it would mean the "God" looks at the wrong thing.

It's not that the "God" is looking at the wrong thing, it's just that the "God" is choosing not to tell the reader/player something at that point in time.
As far as I know, if you look at any source of canon told from a "God" view, the "God" is usually only focusing on the thought processes of one character/what that character senses, before switching to another character. So, basically, despite the "God" knowing everything going on in the war at that time, it's restricted only to what one character is thinking/seeing at the moment--that's pretty much the only way that the "God" can impart all, or even most, of the relevant information to the reader.


The thing is that there's contradictions... particularly about Halsey's knowledge of the Spartan IIIs, GoO says she hasn't met any.


But, there is a loophole. She doesn't know Noble Team is Spartan IIIs.


She just knows that they are not her Spartans.

  • 03.24.2011 1:57 PM PDT


Posted by: RKOSNAKE
Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron

Posted by: Evil Johnny

The thing is that there's contradictions... particularly about Halsey's knowledge of the Spartan IIIs, GoO says she hasn't met any.


But, there is a loophole. She doesn't know Noble Team is Spartan IIIs.


She just knows that they are not her Spartans.


Which is all that matters in the first place, that doesn't change my point. By Ghosts of Onyx, Halsey didn't know about other Spartans, them being IIIs or known by some other fancy designation.

  • 03.24.2011 2:07 PM PDT

Posted by: Astronut7
Does anyone think that ONI, or another branch of the military, may have had a contingency plan that involved pretending that Reach was humanities' homeworld?
At least it would give Earth some more time to rebuild her fleet...


No, I don't believe there was one. Reach was merely the military hub of the UNSC because of it's strategic location and because it had all the right resources to arm the UNSC war machine.

  • 03.24.2011 2:42 PM PDT


Posted by: grey101
In Cole:Protocol Truth goes behind Regrets back with a jackal human trade agreement. Then after it was found out he acted like he didn't know about it.


In first strike Regrets fleet was massing to go to Earth. After nearly all the ships were destroyed the few remaing still went to earth but somehow Regret "forgot" or wasn't told of earth being our homeworld hence his retreat.


The prophets don't work together nor do they share info. We all know that they knew of reach from the crystal artifact but didn't know was a stronghold for us. Regret knew of Earth due to the portal but didn't expect us to be there despite first strike.


It was never explained how regret knew then forgot much like it was never stated how he found installation 5


Unyielding Heirophants was Truth's plot, Regret had nothing to do with it, Truth was always the one with the little devious schemes running, it wouldn't surprise me a bit if we found out that the Covenant presence on Reach before the 14th was a plot by Truth.

Actually the Prophets do work together and share info, or they're at least supposed to. Truth is what you call a manipulative bastard, he will do anything to get what he wants, and what Truth wanted was ultimate power, hence all his underhanded and secret schemes, like Unyielding Heirophant, the events of Cole Protocol, the lie about Humanity, and even the Schism itself.

  • 03.24.2011 2:59 PM PDT

Signatures are for squares.

Posted by: StealthSlasher2

Posted by: Astronut7
@privet caboose
It's on Halopedia...on the page about ODps. According to them, they got their reference from Halo Evolutions--which I haven't got a copy of, so I can't check.


Alright I did a quick check. Unfortunately I didn't have the original copy with me at this moment so I had to check with the volume 1 version. It checks out.

The page number puts it smack dab in the middle of Pariah, and there's a clear reference to Soren and Partch acknowledging that the ODPs were up and could shoot down their Longsword (among other things) as they tried to escape Reach. Considering that Soren is 16 at this time period it would put the date somewhere in 2527. Two years after the augmentations on the Spartans.


I thought that defense grid was just orbital macs, as in, standard macs on the platforms. I don't believe they were the super macs....

  • 03.24.2011 4:17 PM PDT

Brains beats brawn get used to it

Fear the Red Comet

Variety is the spice of life.
Long live games.
Death to all fanboys.


Posted by: privet caboose
Posted by: StealthSlasher2

Posted by: Astronut7
@privet caboose
It's on Halopedia...on the page about ODps. According to them, they got their reference from Halo Evolutions--which I haven't got a copy of, so I can't check.


Alright I did a quick check. Unfortunately I didn't have the original copy with me at this moment so I had to check with the volume 1 version. It checks out.

The page number puts it smack dab in the middle of Pariah, and there's a clear reference to Soren and Partch acknowledging that the ODPs were up and could shoot down their Longsword (among other things) as they tried to escape Reach. Considering that Soren is 16 at this time period it would put the date somewhere in 2527. Two years after the augmentations on the Spartans.


I thought that defense grid was just orbital macs, as in, standard macs on the platforms. I don't believe they were the super macs....


It's quite possible. The exact quote from the book is:

"Plus, Soren thought, the planet is surrounded by Orbital Defense Platforms. This is a crazy idea."

That said, it could be in reference to anything that isn't a super mac given that the wording mentions the planet is "surrounded" by ODPs whereas the Super MACs apparently didn't have LoS all over the planet.

  • 03.24.2011 4:40 PM PDT

I don't like cocaine, I just like the way it smells.


Posted by: KonnichiwaBE

Posted by: Astronut7
To stop the ark? Stupid but at the same time stopping the ark also let survive the ark... I admit though I have not really an idea how they stopped the flood must look into it..

The Ark was almost finished building installation 04B--to replace the first one the MC destroyed. MC activated 04B. As it was incomplete, it only wiped out the Flood in the local area instead of the entire galaxy.

The trouble is, if the gravemind told Cortana, then how did the gravemind know?


Isn't it true that the flood also absorps knowledge? Didn't the Prophets know what the Ark did (considering the Flood catch one of the prophets in Halo 2)...

And thx for the info about what happened with the flood in Halo 3... somehow I never thought about what happened with the flood or maybe I forgot that is also possible =p.

Mendicant Bias? It's possible, as the Gravemind might still have had some knowledge from back then.

  • 03.24.2011 8:12 PM PDT

Signatures are for squares.

Posted by: StealthSlasher2


It's quite possible. The exact quote from the book is:

"Plus, Soren thought, the planet is surrounded by Orbital Defense Platforms. This is a crazy idea."

That said, it could be in reference to anything that isn't a super mac given that the wording mentions the planet is "surrounded" by ODPs whereas the Super MACs apparently didn't have LoS all over the planet.


Thinking about it, it's much more possible that the defense grid around Reach consisted of many standard orbital macs, and only 20 "super" macs. This explains why the Mac that takes out the cruiser on Sword Base didn't create a massive crater. where Sword was.

  • 03.24.2011 8:48 PM PDT

Posted by: privet caboose
Posted by: StealthSlasher2


It's quite possible. The exact quote from the book is:

"Plus, Soren thought, the planet is surrounded by Orbital Defense Platforms. This is a crazy idea."

That said, it could be in reference to anything that isn't a super mac given that the wording mentions the planet is "surrounded" by ODPs whereas the Super MACs apparently didn't have LoS all over the planet.


Thinking about it, it's much more possible that the defense grid around Reach consisted of many standard orbital macs, and only 20 "super" macs. This explains why the Mac that takes out the cruiser on Sword Base didn't create a massive crater. where Sword was.
True but why were they not attacking the Covenant fleet in FoR?

  • 03.24.2011 9:43 PM PDT
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Just checking--do we know of any definitive sources of canon that state that ODPs always had supermac cannons--or a source that states that some didn't?
Thinking about it, it would make sense for the older ODPs to have less powerful cannons...gradually scientists would be finding ways to improve them, until they are at the level of 'supermac.'
If more ODPs were present, it is very curious that they wouldn't be included in the statistics--what is important to the battle is how many mac/supermac cannons the UNSC had.

@Evil Johnny
Going to have to read Ghosts of Onyx again to see if there aren't any loopholes. Be back to you in a couple of days on that one.

In the meantime ( I did not want to fall back on this argument)--whilst a game can show exactly what happened, as it''s happening, a book will find it very difficult to do that.

The fall of Reach does not seem to me to have an entirely objective and unbiased view of the conflict--for example, it seems to favour the UNSC, not the Covenant. :)
Also, The Fall of Reach, like most books, is written in the PAST TENSE. What is written in the Fall of Reach has already happened--possibly quite awhile ago from the p.o.v of the writer.
The "God" p.o.v, unfortunately, seems to be written by a historian--a person who can get their facts wrong--it's just like the game is supposed to be a reconstruction.

[Edited on 03.25.2011 1:13 PM PDT]

  • 03.25.2011 4:08 AM PDT

Signatures are for squares.

Posted by: chickenlittle
Posted by: privet caboose
Posted by: StealthSlasher2


It's quite possible. The exact quote from the book is:

"Plus, Soren thought, the planet is surrounded by Orbital Defense Platforms. This is a crazy idea."

That said, it could be in reference to anything that isn't a super mac given that the wording mentions the planet is "surrounded" by ODPs whereas the Super MACs apparently didn't have LoS all over the planet.


Thinking about it, it's much more possible that the defense grid around Reach consisted of many standard orbital macs, and only 20 "super" macs. This explains why the Mac that takes out the cruiser on Sword Base didn't create a massive crater. where Sword was.
True but why were they not attacking the Covenant fleet in FoR?


Perhaps they were? We know for sure the SMAC's were. All 20 of them were on the same side of the planet. Perhaps the UNSC had them set up in different positions, like their flank.

  • 03.25.2011 4:18 AM PDT
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@Vegerot
Definitely possible that it was from Medicant Bias. Although the weak link is still how Cortana found out--from possibly the Gravemind.
Yes, the Gravemind definitely has memories of that period, as well as the
Edit: human-flood war
that came a long time before that.

[Edited on 03.25.2011 1:15 PM PDT]

  • 03.25.2011 4:28 AM PDT

I don't like cocaine, I just like the way it smells.

I have read all of the Halo books. And besides, the topic says "Spoilers" on it. So anyone here has been warned. So just say it :)

  • 03.25.2011 5:23 AM PDT

First off, the last surviving(supposedly) 2 members of Operation:PROMETHEUS had no idea if anyone else was alive. I dont remmber their names at the moment but Carter, Emile, and Jun could have gotten on different BLACKCAT extraction craft at different times and places. Military records take time and most people really never hear of it. Secondly, even though it is a order to purge NAV databases most Captains would not purge until being boarded or otherwise in danger of being captured. Next, the Spaartan-III program had a wide range of ages. Most were 4, 5, and 6 but there were several odd-ball kids above the age range. I can't argue with the rest of the errors though.

  • 03.25.2011 8:22 AM PDT

Brains beats brawn get used to it

Fear the Red Comet

Variety is the spice of life.
Long live games.
Death to all fanboys.


Posted by: privet caboose
Posted by: chickenlittle
Posted by: privet caboose
Posted by: StealthSlasher2


It's quite possible. The exact quote from the book is:

"Plus, Soren thought, the planet is surrounded by Orbital Defense Platforms. This is a crazy idea."

That said, it could be in reference to anything that isn't a super mac given that the wording mentions the planet is "surrounded" by ODPs whereas the Super MACs apparently didn't have LoS all over the planet.


Thinking about it, it's much more possible that the defense grid around Reach consisted of many standard orbital macs, and only 20 "super" macs. This explains why the Mac that takes out the cruiser on Sword Base didn't create a massive crater. where Sword was.
True but why were they not attacking the Covenant fleet in FoR?


Perhaps they were? We know for sure the SMAC's were. All 20 of them were on the same side of the planet. Perhaps the UNSC had them set up in different positions, like their flank.


Given the quote from Pariah about the ODPs covering the entire planet (exaggeration be damned) we do know from Reach that there at least exist other types of orbital defenses up above Reach such as the platform that reigns down missile support for anything tagged with the Target Locator. With that said, a new theory could be formed in that ODPs refer to anything and everything up in Reach's space that is used for defensive purposes both in space and on the ground. This sets up the likely possibility then that the Super MAC platforms were located elsewhere on the planet and in geosychronous (sp error no doubt) with the more militarized sections of Reach. Sections, that Noble Team were not stationed at during the duration of the Covenant's assault on Reach.

This would likely solve the discrepancy surrounding the power of the MAC round taking down the Covenant Corvette without damaging the planet, and would simultaneously present a legitimate reason for why the Supercarrier wasn't attacked by such platforms due to the futility of such a strike from a weaker gun. Not to mention would explain the absence of the Super MACs.

There are two problems however. The first of which being that we don't see anything in orbit directly above Sword Base given the cutscene where Jorge asks for its status after seeing explosions high up in orbit. Granted at the same time you don't see the platforms that shoots down missile barrages either, so this may be something chalked up to graphical limitations more than anything. Odd though considering what could be seen in Halo 2...

The second however, is why Reach has a weak defense in the first place though such a question surely existed before the game even came out. Though in regards to this theory, it's odd that for Reach, the UNSC would only invest funds in creating 20 Super MACs to guard a relatively small portion of the planet while leaving everything else vulnerable. It's just asking for the Covenant to by pass it much like the Germans did to the Maginot Line in WWII. Yet suddenly after its fall, the UNSC is able to muster up 300 active MAC platforms covering the entirety of the planet in the course of two weeks. Now of course it's quite possible that all those platforms were regular MACs, which, would explain why and how the carriers were able to get past Cairo Station unscathed despite Cortana focusing all her efforts on it. Yet, why the UNSC would not bolster their military world is a bit of an oddity to me, though there also exists the possibility that after Reach, Earth was truly a last resort stand and thus necessitated such a defense whereas Reach was considered impregnable as is...Hmmm...

Well that does it for my rant if anyone could follow along...

  • 03.25.2011 11:32 AM PDT


Posted by: Astronut7
@Evil Johnny
Going to have to read Ghosts of Onyx again to see if there aren't any loopholes. Be back to you in a couple of days on that one.


Been some time since I read the book, but as far as I remember she was surprised about new Spartans. I also read other members saying this in Reach threads. But I guess actually reading it will tell us whether we have a good memory or not.

  • 03.25.2011 12:15 PM PDT

Concerning the target designator, wasn't it stated that it is based off of artillery strikes, and not an orbital one?

  • 03.25.2011 12:18 PM PDT
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Deva Path


Posted by: DecepticonCobra

We are all going to get banned aren't we?


Posted by: Evil Johnny

Posted by: Astronut7
@Evil Johnny
Going to have to read Ghosts of Onyx again to see if there aren't any loopholes. Be back to you in a couple of days on that one.


Been some time since I read the book, but as far as I remember she was surprised about new Spartans. I also read other members saying this in Reach threads. But I guess actually reading it will tell us whether we have a good memory or not.


She was surprised thought she didn't visably show it. she naturally assumed it was ackerson and wondered at the shortcuts in augmentation he had took.

  • 03.25.2011 12:18 PM PDT

Signatures are for squares.

Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron
Concerning the target designator, wasn't it stated that it is based off of artillery strikes, and not an orbital one?


I believe the target designator is much to week to be an orbital strike.

  • 03.25.2011 12:21 PM PDT

Brains beats brawn get used to it

Fear the Red Comet

Variety is the spice of life.
Long live games.
Death to all fanboys.


Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron
Concerning the target designator, wasn't it stated that it is based off of artillery strikes, and not an orbital one?


I was under the impression from all the old Firefight preview videos that the target locator called in artillery strikes from an orbital platform. I'll go look for the vids in the meantime and post back here.

Edit:


Posted by: privet caboose
Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron
Concerning the target designator, wasn't it stated that it is based off of artillery strikes, and not an orbital one?


I believe the target designator is much to week to be an orbital strike.


If you're thinking of a MAC based orbital strike I am in agreement, but I do believe it's a missile strike from orbit rather than a MAC round or whatever it was that struck down the Corvette over Sword Base.

Edit 2:

Alright so according to this video here at 2:48 Lars Baken describes the TL as a device that calls in an "orbital bombardment".

And here it appears I am mistaken about it coming from a platform. According to Sketch at the :56 mark, the orbital strike is launched from a UNSC ship in orbit.

[Edited on 03.25.2011 12:38 PM PDT]

  • 03.25.2011 12:30 PM PDT

Signatures are for squares.

So are those archer missiles? What other kinds of missiles are kept on ships in orbit?

  • 03.25.2011 12:46 PM PDT
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@Evil Johnny

Okay, the bit that everyone is thinking of runs like this:

Mendez and Colonel Ackerson had had decades to produce and train two or three generations. If this were true, then why had she never heard of these Spartans? Keeping a pilot program secret was one thing; keeping dozens of next-generation Spartans who were likely fighting and winning battles hidden was another matter entirely.
The implications of that silence chilled her to the bone.
..................Since Ackerson could not destroy her Spartan program, he had funded and recruited trainers for his own? It chilled her to think what shortcuts he might be taking and what he might be doing with his own private army of Spartans. (Ghosts of Onyx, Chapter Twenty)

There is also another bit previously in the chapter where Halsey didn't recognise the Spartan-IIIs because they wore SPI armour. Noble Team seemed to wear similar armour to the Spartan-IIs.

HOWEVER, here is another quote:
Dr. Halsey had taken the liberty of rifling Colonel Ackerson's top-secret files on Reach before the Covenant destroyed the facility.......The last bread crumb in this long trail was an encrypted folder in Ackerson's secret files, the one labeled "S-III." In it were extensive medical records on her SPARTAN-IIs.............Ackerson's "S-III." This was an obvious reference to SPARTAN-III. What else could it be with all the Spartan biomedical data he had accumulated in that folder? (Ghosts of Onyx, Chapter Sixteen)
I will keep reading...but so far there doesn't seem to be anything negating the possibility that Halsey met Noble Team.

I really do see how people can remember the quote from chapter twenty and think that Halsey had never even heard of the Spartan-IIIs. I didn't remember either quote, so I guess I just got lucky. :)

[Edited on 03.25.2011 1:08 PM PDT]

  • 03.25.2011 12:51 PM PDT

Brains beats brawn get used to it

Fear the Red Comet

Variety is the spice of life.
Long live games.
Death to all fanboys.


Posted by: privet caboose
So are those archer missiles? What other kinds of missiles are kept on ships in orbit?


It could be some type of lesser missile considering that Archers are meant to do some decent damage to ship based armor, and the size of the missile seems far too small for it to be something designed to damage ships. Course I don't supposed archers sizes were ever described so that's up for grabs...

  • 03.25.2011 1:15 PM PDT

In sword base it sounds more like ground-based Artillery by the banter between Kat and Sword Control...

  • 03.25.2011 1:24 PM PDT


Posted by: privet caboose
Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron
Concerning the target designator, wasn't it stated that it is based off of artillery strikes, and not an orbital one?


I believe the target designator is much to week to be an orbital strike.


I think the Target Locator is supposed to be some form of air support, that could include orbital strikes, but I think they're from the likes of Longswords or whatever other small airships the UNSC might have.

  • 03.25.2011 1:37 PM PDT