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This topic has moved here: Subject: Unexplainable errors in the Halo canon. (Spoilers)
  • Subject: Unexplainable errors in the Halo canon. (Spoilers)
Subject: Unexplainable errors in the Halo canon. (Spoilers)
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@privet caboose
No...I think you're still on topic.
Noble Team, despite having MJOLNIR, was unable to survive Reach even though they weren't part of the main offensive. This is why I think it would have been good idea for us to be with Noble Team a few engagements before Reach. Then we could have chalked up this engagement to their luck running out.

A Spartan II would PUKE in his own helmet before taking it off. Completely agree with this. But if I remember correctly, Spartan-IIIs regularly took their helmets off when not in combat...it's how Halsey was able to identify them as Spartan-IIIs after crash-landing (Ghosts of Onyx).

Kat...no explanation for her pointless death. She should have had her shields up. If she had been hit in the head by a Halo 3 covenant sniper rifle, then I could understand...but a needle rifle???

Emile...that Elite should have been invisible. If not, then Emile was just too cocky, careless and stupid to be a Spartan.

Jun...not sure if this is relevant, but if I remember correctly, in one of the extended books it states that Halsey was captured by the Covenant soon after Reach, and that the Covenant had a hard time killing her Spartan protector...

[Edited on 03.27.2011 7:01 AM PDT]

  • 03.27.2011 6:55 AM PDT
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"Time was your ally human. But now it has abandoned you. The Forerunners....have returned. And this tomb... is now yours". - The Didact


Posted by: Astronut7
@privet caboose
No...I think you're still on topic.
Noble Team, despite having MJOLNIR, was unable to survive Reach even though they weren't part of the main offensive. This is why I think it would have been good idea for us to be with Noble Team a few engagements before Reach. Then we could have chalked up this engagement to their luck running out.

A Spartan II would PUKE in his own helmet before taking it off. Completely agree with this. But if I remember correctly, Spartan-IIIs regularly took their helmets off when not in combat...it's how Halsey was able to identify them as Spartan-IIIs after crash-landing (Ghosts of Onyx).

Kat...no explanation for her pointless death. She should have had her shields up. If she had been hit in the head by a Halo 3 covenant sniper rifle, then I could understand...but a needle rifle???

Emile...that Elite should have been invisible. If not, then Emile was just too cocky, careless and stupid to be a Spartan.

Jun...not sure if this is relevant, but if I remember correctly, in one of the extended books it states that Halsey was captured by the Covenant soon after Reach, and that the Covenant had a hard time killing her Spartan protector...


No that was about the battle of Miridem where Sheila got killed,then the package episode of legends starts.

  • 03.27.2011 7:10 AM PDT
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@hotshot revan II
Ah...okay, thanks for clearing that up. That definitely makes a lot more sense than what I was thinking...
So, no, I have no idea what happened to Jun. Very unsatisfying...

  • 03.27.2011 7:20 AM PDT
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"Time was your ally human. But now it has abandoned you. The Forerunners....have returned. And this tomb... is now yours". - The Didact


Posted by: Astronut7
@hotshot revan II
Ah...okay, thanks for clearing that up. That definitely makes a lot more sense than what I was thinking...
So, no, I have no idea what happened to Jun. Very unsatisfying...


I hope 343I gives us a campaign DLC with Jun .

  • 03.27.2011 7:23 AM PDT


Noble Team, despite having MJOLNIR, was unable to survive Reach even though they weren't part of the main offensive.

MJOLNIR does not = Survival. Different situations either way.

A Spartan II would PUKE in his own helmet before taking it off.

Has a Spartan 2 ever received that much damage to their helm? Also I don't remember them being opposed to taking off their helms.

As for Kat's death, the glassing beam was nearby, those things pump out lots of radiation. That would disable the shielding systems.

Emile, might have been slightly cocky, but that doesn't change the fact the elite moved up slowly enough to not show up on motion tracker. Hard to defend against something you don't know it's there right?

  • 03.27.2011 8:59 AM PDT

I don't like cocaine, I just like the way it smells.


Posted by: grey101

Posted by: Astronut7
@privet caboose
Again, gravemind letting Cortana know=very stupid Gravemind. If I remember the Halo Evolutions story correctly, then Cortana was being attacked so much, and so effectively, that it was all she could do to get that message to the Chief, let alone steal the info as another possibility...although, didn't the Gravemind let her do that for some reason?
The gravemind knowing from Medicant Bias makes sense, but I don't think that a) The Gravemind would let Cortana know (no gain) and b) Cortana was far too weak to steal that information from the Gravemind.

Very interesting idea about Cortana lying...it would pose some interesting developement for a sequel Halo 4...


Or the Gravemind overwhelmed her with knowledge inorder to break her and that might have been some info gleamed.And Cortana did get inside the gravemind and get information but i belive that was after the message was sent.

Posted by: OrderedComa

Posted by: grey101
I am surprised nobody has even asked what data cortanan got from the database that was so important. because it wasn't halo's location.


It might have been what allowed her to interpret the Sigma Rock, and may very well have been partially what informed her of the Ark. The Gravemind and the systems of High Charity might have helped some as well.


(Going off memory) i was under the impresssion that the rock was decoded before reach.


Actually I think Cortana NOT lying would be a good plot for Halo 4*. That way, it would mean that there's another Forerunner thing that John has to find.

Also, I know that the Forerunners had withheld information from 343 Guilty Spark, but that would mean that it wouldn't have been in Halo's Control Room. Because in the back of "The Flood", Spark says how bored he was. And guys, you have to think about how long 1,000 years is. I recently tried to contemplate 1,000 years is, and I realized how LONG that was (I then tried to think of 100 years, and saw how long that was too). So in 100,000 years, Spark would have had A LOT of time to contemplate the information on Halo. And considering that Spark is one of the most powerful Ancillas ever; if he couldn't figure all that out in 100,000 YEARS, then Cortana couldn't in 12. Oh yeah, not 12 years; but 12 hours.

*It has been stated by 343 Industries, that the Forerunner Trilogy was going to be a sequel to both Halo 3 and Ghosts of Onyx. So, they might make a game. But the game would be based off of the Forerunner Trilogy book.
Huh, just thought of something. What if Bornstellar hides on Onyx before the Array is fired. And hides himself in a Cryptum. Then "the gang" (Halsey, Mendez and the SPARTAN-IIIs) finds it then they open it. The only problem with this is that only a Forerunner can open a cryptum.

[Edited on 03.27.2011 9:23 AM PDT]

  • 03.27.2011 9:19 AM PDT

I don't like cocaine, I just like the way it smells.


Posted by: grey101

Posted by: Astronut7
@grey101
My original point still stands (I think) because the safest thing for the forerunners to do is to put as little information about the Ark on the Halo Rings as possible.
That's anywhere on the Halo Rings--database or monitor.


The point i am trying to get across is that the forerunners also had to leave information behind for humanity. So the humans find a halo, able to use it and have no explaination why?

Sure installation 5 had an outbreak but that is only 1 case. what if we found that ring and the protocols were still intact (like the other rings) we would be given control of a galaxy killing gun but no reason why?


It's like giving somebody that hates you your house after your death but not explaining why incase your children find out. (or something along thoose lines)

I actually have an explanation :). I think that ALL Halo Installations had an Ancilla like the one on Cold Storage. I also believe that the Ancilla on Cold Storage served a similar purpose to "The Knowing". So humanity would find that Ancilla and it would provide them with any questions they wish to have answered.

  • 03.27.2011 9:42 AM PDT
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Posted by: hotshot revan II
I hope 343I gives us a campaign DLC with Jun.

I'll second this. In fact, any campaign DLC from 343i would be appreciated. I'd pay for it. How about finally giving us those missing levels from Halo 2? Or going on the mission shown in the Deliver Hope Trailer? Or filling in the gaps between the games (for gamers) by adapting First Strike and/or Halo: Uprising?
Ah well, probably too late to do so now...
They'll probably mention Jun's fate in a comic series instead. :(

  • 03.27.2011 9:53 AM PDT

I don't like cocaine, I just like the way it smells.


Posted by: EchoGamer

Posted by: DecepticonCobra
Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron

Posted by: DecepticonCobra
Posted by: privet caboose
I refuse to believe "Noble was the best of the III's" considering how utterly crap they are when compared to Tom, Lucy, Roland, Jonah, Robert, Shane, Ash...hell, ANY other spartan III we've read about completely trumps Noble Team. It's pathetic.

Did any of them match the criteria of abilities matching those of a Spartan-II? Doesn't look like it. Tom was a pretty good leader, Lucy was a mute, Roland and Jonah bite the dust, Shane died, and Ash may very well have had the chances to be part of a Noble like group had things not gone to Hell when Onyx was attacked.


I fail to see how Noble team is "utterly crap" compared to those...

Logic does not work on a fanboy.


I actually quite liked Noble Team. I think it has more to do with the fact that they are the first Spartans we get to see interact in game than it does with their actual personalities or abilities. But that's just me.


I also think that two of the reasons why we were disappointed with Noble Team are because of this.

A) If they were truly SPARTAN-III level. Then they would be running like someone hacked into your game (speed of light!). They would have fast reflexes, doing a bunch of other stuff too.

B). Back to the reflexes goes into my second point. Even if Bungie didn't care about balancing (which they do) they couldn't make Noble Team sPARTAN-III level even if they wanted to! Because if the SPARTANs had super fast reflexes, then they would be nocking weapons out of peoples hands', ripping Grunt's masks off, etc. Which means a bunch of animations that would take years for Bungie to make.
Also, what about the AI's? Humanity currently does not have the technology to make something as smart as a SPARTAN-III. Making decisions, team-work, working together (like one Spartan throwing another SPARTAN to the top of a building or something), etc.

What I'm saying: The main reasons why Noble Team isn't awesome is because of: Balancing and Programming beyond current human limitations.

  • 03.27.2011 10:03 AM PDT
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@Vegerot
Cortana lying to the Chief would still be an interesting plot development...but Cortana NOT lying would probably be more a more exciting one for us, I completely agree.
Good point about Guilty Spark...stuck on Halo with nothing to do for 100,000 years...must have gone insane with boredom. :)
I agree with your assessment that he would have tried to find out about the Ark anyway he could, too.
MAJOR REVELATION: A Forerunner is still alive! :) I guess we'll have to wait until the Forerunner Trilogy is completed to find out...
On a side note...I wonder where Cortana would rank compared to Forerunner AI...

  • 03.27.2011 10:08 AM PDT

I don't like cocaine, I just like the way it smells.


Posted by: privet caboose
Posted by: DecepticonCobra
Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron

Posted by: DecepticonCobra
Posted by: privet caboose
I refuse to believe "Noble was the best of the III's" considering how utterly crap they are when compared to Tom, Lucy, Roland, Jonah, Robert, Shane, Ash...hell, ANY other spartan III we've read about completely trumps Noble Team. It's pathetic.

Did any of them match the criteria of abilities matching those of a Spartan-II? Doesn't look like it. Tom was a pretty good leader, Lucy was a mute, Roland and Jonah bite the dust, Shane died, and Ash may very well have had the chances to be part of a Noble like group had things not gone to Hell when Onyx was attacked.


I fail to see how Noble team is "utterly crap" compared to those...

Logic does not work on a fanboy.


Tom and Lucy survived TORPEDO, and then went on to survive Onyx. They went on a mission to blow up various Sentinel spawning buildings. Blue Team went to destroy one, Saber Team went to destroy one, and Tom and Lucy were sent to the last one.

Despite being in SPI, and despite being just a two man team, they still completed the mission without losing anyone.

Noble Team, despite having MJOLNIR, was unable to survive Reach even though they weren't part of the main offensive. Jorge died like a true spartan. As did Noble Six. But the others? They all made completely rookie mistakes that any other spartan would've never made.

Why weren't Kat's shields up? EMP'd you say? No, the Phantom was still flying. Her shields hadn't come back yet? Impossible, they would've recharged in the elevator. The only logical explanation, is that she didn't put her helmet back on fully, or didn't place it properly, or she just didn't have "auto recharging shielding" turned on. This is because, for some damn reason, Noble team loves taking their helmets off. A Spartan II would PUKE in his own helmet before taking it off. New Alexandria was a battlefield. There's no reason they should've been helmet-less in that scene.

Emile's death is chalked down to being too cocky by taking his time to kill the first Elite, and just not watching his motion tracker when the Elite came up behind him.

Jun apparently went into hiding, because he didn't stay with Halsey at Castle, and he's never mentioned again. Maybe he's tunneled up somewhere under Reach and just doesn't want to be found.



Anyway, I'm ranting and completely off topic.


I beg to differ actually. I think that Jorge did NOT die like a SPARTAN-II. Which pissed me SO off after I played that level. SPARTAN-IIs are supposed to survive! To, "Live to fight another day." But Jorge sacrificed himself! It should have been SPARTAN-B312 that should have activated the bomb, a "disposable hero", not a SPARTAN-II!! Who else here was pissed off by that?!?

  • 03.27.2011 10:19 AM PDT
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@Vegerot
I think they probably could make a single AI somewhat like you describe...but the trouble is, would there be enough processing power on the Xbox 360 to handle that, as well as a couple of dozen enemy AI? I don't think so.
Also, I don't think we had any of that with Master Chief, so it shouldn't come as too much of a disappointment...
I think its more of the fact that we spent so little time with them before they started dying...

Btw, who thinks gameplay would have been improved in the campaign had we been able to give simple commands to Noble Team (even very simple ones, like stay here or move out, or why won't you get in the warthog Kat? Get in the Warthog! I'm driving!:)

[Edited on 03.27.2011 10:21 AM PDT]

  • 03.27.2011 10:21 AM PDT
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@Vegerot
I think by this point you (the player) were somehow supposed to feel that you were one of the most vital assets to the war. I didn't feel that, so yes I was annoyed (after getting over Jorge's heroic, but useless sacrifice).

However, Jorge had a choice. He could do his duty, or he could survive. Many Spartans just died. Remember Solomon and Arthur from the Package? They died within a few minutes of each other--both stupid, stupid deaths for a Spartan.
Or, you could remember Sam, who died as a result of a simple plasma pistol bolt.
Or, you could remember Isaac and Vinh, who seemed to get blown up when their own charges detonated prematurely.
In short: I think Jorge died like a Spartan.

[Edited on 03.27.2011 10:39 AM PDT]

  • 03.27.2011 10:34 AM PDT

I don't like cocaine, I just like the way it smells.

No. Too many variables for the anyone to do nowadays. Think about what you just said. You would be making a person inside of a machine, AKA creating an AI, which the humans in the Haloverse only make around the 2500s.
The Problem with the Chief. I figured out that problem while on Factpile.com. The reason why the Chief got toned down is because EVERYTHING ELSE GOT TONED DOWN TOO. So the Elites were weaker, not moving as fast. Plasma weapons didn't have the same power, Flood less strong, Sentinels EXPONENTIALLY less powerful, especially 343 Guilty Sparks power (like seriously, a Monitor tasked with such an important job wouldn't have been that weak), all the enemies not as smart as they would normally be, etc.

And for your last thing, you mean like how you could do in Mass Effect. I was wondering that too! Like you have that while D-pad, but it serves no purpose. The only thing it does is the Night Vision, which honestly, since it doesn't have the same things that the VISOR had in ODST, is kinda pointless. I would much rather have AI controls over night vision.

  • 03.27.2011 10:39 AM PDT
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@Vegerot
Just so you know, I wasn't thinking about them making an AI like Cortana...way, way, way too beyond our capabilities at this point.
I was just thinking that, if Bungie devoted their efforts, they could produce an AI that could do, or at least seem to do, those actions you had described. But an actual intelligent AI on the level of even HAL from 2001: A Space Odyssey---er, no.
Haven't played Mass Effect...I was thinking more along the lines of Star Wars: Republic Commando...same difference to the question I suppose? Good point with the D-pad--I don't even notice that thing whilst playing Halo. I also agree with your points about the Chief, too.

[Edited on 03.27.2011 11:03 AM PDT]

  • 03.27.2011 10:51 AM PDT

I don't like cocaine, I just like the way it smells.

Yeah, but also. The AI ties directly in with the animations. So, making good AI would mean having a lot of animations, which --like I said above-- would take years to make.

  • 03.27.2011 10:53 AM PDT
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@Vegerot
Animations taking years to make...now, that I can agree with. I think they had enough trouble just with the assassinations and the in-game cutscenes...
But, again, your original point was that it was the lack of that which made players feel that Noble Team wasn't that great.
I think it's more of the fact that we spent what? Four missions with all of Noble Team still alive?
Most of the time we weren't even with all of Noble Team. I remember we spent most of Winter Contingency with all of Noble Team except Jun, most of ONI: Sword base with Kat, Nightfall with Jun, and Tip of the Spear with Kat for some and Jorge for some.
In Long Night of Solace, most of the time Jorge wasn't even in sight...and then he died.
It's the same for the rest of the campaign...you're mostly on your own until The Package...then after that your just left with Emile on the PoA.
I don't think we ever even got to spend much time with Carter...
Again, I think Halo: Reach would have really benefited from a longer campaign...

[Edited on 03.27.2011 11:35 AM PDT]

  • 03.27.2011 11:00 AM PDT

Brains beats brawn get used to it

Fear the Red Comet

Variety is the spice of life.
Long live games.
Death to all fanboys.


Posted by: Vegerot
I beg to differ actually. I think that Jorge did NOT die like a SPARTAN-II. Which pissed me SO off after I played that level. SPARTAN-IIs are supposed to survive! To, "Live to fight another day." But Jorge sacrificed himself! It should have been SPARTAN-B312 that should have activated the bomb, a "disposable hero", not a SPARTAN-II!! Who else here was pissed off by that?!?


Not me. What kind of hero goes "Hey I have senority so you go stay behind and die for me while I survive. See ya!"

I mean really, what kind of train of thought is that....

  • 03.27.2011 11:17 AM PDT

I don't like cocaine, I just like the way it smells.

Yeah, I kinda thought that too. But I mean still. You know, that 's a SPARTAN-III job.

  • 03.27.2011 11:21 AM PDT

Brains beats brawn get used to it

Fear the Red Comet

Variety is the spice of life.
Long live games.
Death to all fanboys.


Posted by: Vegerot
Yeah, I kinda thought that too. But I mean still. You know, that 's a SPARTAN-III job.


Just because Command considers them to be "disposable heroes" hardly means that the Spartan IIIs were taught to go automatically jump off a cliff and die the first second they get the opportunity to because it's their "job" as IIIs and not IIs.

[Edited on 03.27.2011 11:25 AM PDT]

  • 03.27.2011 11:25 AM PDT
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Again, short campaign=little development of the characters.
I mean, from the game, I wouldn't even know that Jorge was from Reach. The "Don't deny me this" kind of makes more sense after watching the "A Spartan will rise" trailer...

[Edited on 03.27.2011 11:57 AM PDT]

  • 03.27.2011 11:43 AM PDT


Posted by: StealthSlasher2

Posted by: Vegerot
I beg to differ actually. I think that Jorge did NOT die like a SPARTAN-II. Which pissed me SO off after I played that level. SPARTAN-IIs are supposed to survive! To, "Live to fight another day." But Jorge sacrificed himself! It should have been SPARTAN-B312 that should have activated the bomb, a "disposable hero", not a SPARTAN-II!! Who else here was pissed off by that?!?


Not me. What kind of hero goes "Hey I have senority so you go stay behind and die for me while I survive. See ya!"

I mean really, what kind of train of thought is that....


^This.

Also, Six was just, if not possibly more, valuable an asset as Jorge. You know seeing how Six shares the Hyper Letal Vector rating with Master Chief and all.

  • 03.27.2011 12:19 PM PDT
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CoD is a good game, even if the Halo series are better in some aspects. Anyone who insults either is just bad in that game. Grow up.


Posted by: OrderedComa

Posted by: StealthSlasher2

Posted by: Vegerot
I beg to differ actually. I think that Jorge did NOT die like a SPARTAN-II. Which pissed me SO off after I played that level. SPARTAN-IIs are supposed to survive! To, "Live to fight another day." But Jorge sacrificed himself! It should have been SPARTAN-B312 that should have activated the bomb, a "disposable hero", not a SPARTAN-II!! Who else here was pissed off by that?!?


Not me. What kind of hero goes "Hey I have senority so you go stay behind and die for me while I survive. See ya!"

I mean really, what kind of train of thought is that....


^This.

Also, Six was just, if not possibly more, valuable an asset as Jorge. You know seeing how Six shares the Hyper Letal Vector rating with Master Chief and all.

Although I agree with your point here, quit using the "Hyper Lethal Vector" rating as evidence. No one actually knows what it involves and honestly is most likely used for commercial reasons as I said. Game designers obviously want players to think that their character is a big deal. Stop bringing it up.

  • 03.27.2011 1:01 PM PDT

Brains beats brawn get used to it

Fear the Red Comet

Variety is the spice of life.
Long live games.
Death to all fanboys.


Posted by: Beowolfe

Posted by: OrderedComa

Posted by: StealthSlasher2

Posted by: Vegerot
I beg to differ actually. I think that Jorge did NOT die like a SPARTAN-II. Which pissed me SO off after I played that level. SPARTAN-IIs are supposed to survive! To, "Live to fight another day." But Jorge sacrificed himself! It should have been SPARTAN-B312 that should have activated the bomb, a "disposable hero", not a SPARTAN-II!! Who else here was pissed off by that?!?


Not me. What kind of hero goes "Hey I have senority so you go stay behind and die for me while I survive. See ya!"

I mean really, what kind of train of thought is that....


^This.

Also, Six was just, if not possibly more, valuable an asset as Jorge. You know seeing how Six shares the Hyper Letal Vector rating with Master Chief and all.

Although I agree with your point here, quit using the "Hyper Lethal Vector" rating as evidence. No one actually knows what it involves and honestly is most likely used for commercial reasons as I said. Game designers obviously want players to think that their character is a big deal. Stop bringing it up.


No need for the "hyper lethal" factor. Cortana's decision to have Six carry her lets the players know that Six is a big deal compared to the other members of Noble.

  • 03.27.2011 1:09 PM PDT
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CoD is a good game, even if the Halo series are better in some aspects. Anyone who insults either is just bad in that game. Grow up.


Posted by: StealthSlasher2

Posted by: Beowolfe

Posted by: OrderedComa

Posted by: StealthSlasher2

Posted by: Vegerot
I beg to differ actually. I think that Jorge did NOT die like a SPARTAN-II. Which pissed me SO off after I played that level. SPARTAN-IIs are supposed to survive! To, "Live to fight another day." But Jorge sacrificed himself! It should have been SPARTAN-B312 that should have activated the bomb, a "disposable hero", not a SPARTAN-II!! Who else here was pissed off by that?!?


Not me. What kind of hero goes "Hey I have senority so you go stay behind and die for me while I survive. See ya!"

I mean really, what kind of train of thought is that....


^This.

Also, Six was just, if not possibly more, valuable an asset as Jorge. You know seeing how Six shares the Hyper Letal Vector rating with Master Chief and all.

Although I agree with your point here, quit using the "Hyper Lethal Vector" rating as evidence. No one actually knows what it involves and honestly is most likely used for commercial reasons as I said. Game designers obviously want players to think that their character is a big deal. Stop bringing it up.


No need for the "hyper lethal" factor. Cortana's decision to have Six carry her lets the players know that Six is a big deal compared to the other members of Noble.


That doesn't come until you buy the game and play through 80% of it. Hyper lethal is mentioned both by the character info on this site and in the "A Spartan will rise" trailer.

And plus...that part of the story is totally just retcon plot device. Bungie couldn't come up with a separate epic story for Noble 6 so they decided to steal some of the glory from the pre-established hero that is Master Chief.

  • 03.27.2011 1:15 PM PDT