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  • Subject: Unexplainable errors in the Halo canon. (Spoilers)
Subject: Unexplainable errors in the Halo canon. (Spoilers)


Posted by: JobeTheConqueror

Posted by: Hysterical Joker

Posted by: Foley vonAwesom

IIRC no UNSC ships should be capable of interatmosphere flight. Much like in Star Trek, these ships are assembled and maintained in space.
Also, original TFoR circumstances et al; im sure that's been covered before.

We have to accept that they got retconned into being atmosphere capable and move on from there.


In Amber Clad flys in atmosphere on Earth. Forward Unto Dawn flies in atmosphere on the Ark, which also has an atmosphere.
They are rated for atmosphere, originally the PoA was not.

  • 09.20.2010 11:32 AM PDT

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Posted by: Hysterical Joker

Posted by: JobeTheConqueror

Posted by: Hysterical Joker

Posted by: Foley vonAwesom

IIRC no UNSC ships should be capable of interatmosphere flight. Much like in Star Trek, these ships are assembled and maintained in space.
Also, original TFoR circumstances et al; im sure that's been covered before.

We have to accept that they got retconned into being atmosphere capable and move on from there.


In Amber Clad flys in atmosphere on Earth. Forward Unto Dawn flies in atmosphere on the Ark, which also has an atmosphere.
They are rated for atmosphere, originally the PoA was not.


Sorry, misleading quote. I know that. The other dude was saying UNSC ships cannot fly in atmosphere, like Star Trek ships.

A strange statement, seeing as how in 2 games we see it happen first hand. Even stranger because almost every Star Trek series has had a episode where a ship flies in atmosphere for some reason.

  • 09.20.2010 11:45 AM PDT
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Posted by: Achronos
It isn't our shiznit anymore.

Posted by: Hysterical Joker
When you bend the canon, you create larger and more far-reaching inconsistencies.

My definition of "bending the canon" must be off. If you don't mind, what is your definition of canon bending?

My point is, it seems odd when the prominent universe members post threads about canon errors (not just yours Caboose) and a member I've never recognized on the forum before comes up with a decent solution to the error. It makes me think some of the famous universers are either too lazy or don't care about the canon to try to fix it (though I have seen this similar behavior in veteran members who develop an apathy for their old style of helpful and courteous posting). Perhaps it is a side effect of being with B.net for so long. Anyway, this is turning into a topic for another thread.

[Edited on 09.20.2010 12:25 PM PDT]

  • 09.20.2010 12:23 PM PDT
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Thanks for Team Snipers Bungie.
Mythic Member, Legendary Member and back and forth. i just can't make up my mind!
Campaign - Halo C.E.>Halo 2>Halo 3
Multiplayer - Halo 2>Halo 3>Halo C.E.
Just about every thing I post is my opinion and nothing more. Be subjective. Respect other's opinions. Try to understand other's point of view.

What really bothers me is that all of this is so easily avoided. First of all don't use Jorge. Use another SIII or use several Spartan IIs that were sent down to protect the generators. You could say they were separated and given new orders.

Don't use Halsey. You could use one of Ackerson's scientist or heck, Ackerson himself. You wouldn't have to use Cortana then. How hard would it be to make up a new smart A.I.?

The entire PoA thing was completely unnecessary. There's hundreds of ways not to do that. You could simply be trying to get to a Pelican with the information on the newly introduced A.I.

This was just so unnecessary it does make me wonder about the conspiracy theories that Bungie did this on purpose. Then again, would they really screw all of their long term, hardcore fans just to spite Bungie. I wouldn't think so. I just don't understand.

To all of the people yelling "Retcon." Stop. What's the point of having a storyline if every time a new game, book, magazine or cartoon comes out you change EVERYTHING? It's one thing to have the inevitable error here and there or to change some thing small because of lack of foresight but to pretty much make you first three books a farce is unacceptable.

P.S. It wouldn't surprise me if we never see Bungie employee comment on this in the forums. Maybe if they are cornered in an interview. Maybe.

[Edited on 09.20.2010 1:59 PM PDT]

  • 09.20.2010 1:57 PM PDT
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Posted by: JobeTheConqueror

Posted by: Hysterical Joker

Posted by: JobeTheConqueror

Posted by: Hysterical Joker

Posted by: Foley vonAwesom

IIRC no UNSC ships should be capable of interatmosphere flight. Much like in Star Trek, these ships are assembled and maintained in space.
Also, original TFoR circumstances et al; im sure that's been covered before.

We have to accept that they got retconned into being atmosphere capable and move on from there.


In Amber Clad flys in atmosphere on Earth. Forward Unto Dawn flies in atmosphere on the Ark, which also has an atmosphere.
They are rated for atmosphere, originally the PoA was not.


Sorry, misleading quote. I know that. The other dude was saying UNSC ships cannot fly in atmosphere, like Star Trek ships.

A strange statement, seeing as how in 2 games we see it happen first hand. Even stranger because almost every Star Trek series has had a episode where a ship flies in atmosphere for some reason.

I pulled that from memory.

But it's an idea regarding ship construction. To build interstellar ships, it is not economic or efficient to build them planetside. building them in space, in an atmosphere- less environment would render them impractical for use within atmosphere flight; due to construction methods and environment. I am not sure how to word the exact justification. Im fairly certain it was brought up within one of the halo books.

While we do see ships within Earth's and the Arks atmosphere; it is possible they were rated and built to be able to do that- however it is a stretch (one that can be ignored, but still.)

And to end the stray strand about ST- the actual capital ships are not rated for inter atmosphere transit in most cases. That can be independently researched and discussed outside of this forum.


**********

I'm seeing some discussion about how easy it would have been to avoid cannon errors with this game:

Then there wouldn't have been a game. The battle of Reach was a lightning flash. Something had to change.

If bungie wanted to portray a game that did not interfere with the canon, they would not have much room to give players adequate action and plot development.

  • 09.20.2010 3:08 PM PDT

On hiding dead bodies:
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Inside another dead body. It's the last place they'll look
A corpse within a corpse.
CORPSEPTION.
Win.


Posted by: JobeTheConqueror

Posted by: Hysterical Joker

Posted by: Foley vonAwesom

IIRC no UNSC ships should be capable of interatmosphere flight. Much like in Star Trek, these ships are assembled and maintained in space.
Also, original TFoR circumstances et al; im sure that's been covered before.

We have to accept that they got retconned into being atmosphere capable and move on from there.


In Amber Clad flys in atmosphere on Earth. Forward Unto Dawn flies in atmosphere on the Ark, which also has an atmosphere.
We only see Frigates performing in-atmosphere flight, and only from 2552 onwards. It's reasonable to assume that it is a new Frigate design capable of in-atmosphere (possibly from reverse-engineered Covenant anti-grav drives), and only used on Frigates due to low mass, and/or limited breakthroughs with the anti-grav if that is the case.

The only other UNSC ship in-atmosphere is the Spirit of Fire, a repurposed Colony Ship, which was designed to land on a planet's surface.

EDIT: about the dates - fine, yes, I'm well aware that Bungie had to lengthen the storyline in order the make the game playable.
But why 5 weeks? Surely just 6-8 days would have sufficed? It's less of a massive retcon. Still big though, and still doesn't account for the SPARTANS, but it's less ridiculous.

[Edited on 09.20.2010 3:33 PM PDT]

  • 09.20.2010 3:27 PM PDT


Posted by: P3P5I
Posted by: Hysterical Joker
When you bend the canon, you create larger and more far-reaching inconsistencies.

My definition of "bending the canon" must be off. If you don't mind, what is your definition of canon bending?

My point is, it seems odd when the prominent universe members post threads about canon errors (not just yours Caboose) and a member I've never recognized on the forum before comes up with a decent solution to the error. It makes me think some of the famous universers are either too lazy or don't care about the canon to try to fix it (though I have seen this similar behavior in veteran members who develop an apathy for their old style of helpful and courteous posting). Perhaps it is a side effect of being with B.net for so long. Anyway, this is turning into a topic for another thread.

You seem to assume that Mythic members must have all the answers and are unbiased, objective lorebraries.

That aside, just because I haven't responded to everyone's ideas about how to fix canon, does not mean they are not flawed and correct. So I can't judge and say, because I haven't taken time to sift through every one of them.

Bending canon, to me, means changing the rules of how the universe works. Giving the PoA thrusters to retcon it to be atmosphere capable? That's fine, that's retcon, not canon bending.

Now, since Halo: Reach says Reach takes quite a bit longer to fall, does that mean everything from the books is null and never happened, because the timelines no longer line up?

See, the funny part when you screw up your dates, is that it cascades into an ever growing cluster-blam!- until someone goes back in and fixes it. If Bungie didn't have plans to follow their canon so closely, why bother giving those details?


[Edited on 09.20.2010 4:10 PM PDT]

  • 09.20.2010 4:02 PM PDT


Posted by: Foley vonAwesom
I'm seeing some discussion about how easy it would have been to avoid cannon errors with this game:

Then there wouldn't have been a game. The battle of Reach was a lightning flash. Something had to change.

If bungie wanted to portray a game that did not interfere with the canon, they would not have much room to give players adequate action and plot development.

Could've told it from multiple points of view, like how they did with ODST, all that happens to his comrades occurs in 6 hours. Just switch viewpoints between Red, Blue, etc.

That aside, I don't mind they told a different story than Red and Blue team, I do mind they decided not to follow their own canon in order to appease the casual fanbase who didn't even request to see the Reach story in game form for years(Like the hardcore fans).

Sure, retcons are cool and all(Noble Team is one big retcon), but it's just annoying that they purposefully did so when they didn't need to. And as such, they didn't cover all their bases and left many inconsistencies here and there that the hardcore fanbase is going to nitpick on, because hey, they've been doing that with the canon for years.

  • 09.20.2010 4:07 PM PDT

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I mean Bungie could have made the Game Halo: Reach a battle of one day instead of a month, although the Dr. Halsey's journal explains some discrepancys.

It bothers me the prescense of the Pillar of Autumn on Reach, and the easteregg of the M.C. in cryosleep, i could think that before they made the jump, the went back to Reach to meet Noble Six for the package. It bothered me from the beginning that this happened. I consider myself a hardcore fan and i used to love the canon until 343 step in and Bungie did this...

The game is awesome, the campaign is awesome, but why they had to change it?

Bungie is proud to say they "listen their fans" but this is not the best proof of it...

[Edited on 09.20.2010 4:13 PM PDT]

  • 09.20.2010 4:10 PM PDT


Posted by: MasterSin
I mean Bungie could have made the Game Halo: Reach a battle of one day instead of a month, although the Dr. Halsey's journal explains some discrepancies.

It bothers me the prescense of the Pillar of Autumn on Reach, and the easteregg of the M.C. in cryosleep, i could think that before they made the jump, the went back to Reach to meet Noble Six for the package. It bothered me from the beginning that this happened. I consider myself a hardcore fan and i used to love the canon until 343 step in and Bungie did this...

The game is awesome, the campaign is awesome, but why they had to change it?

343 hasn't done anything, why the hate?

  • 09.20.2010 4:11 PM PDT
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Posted by: Hysterical Joker

Posted by: MasterSin
I mean Bungie could have made the Game Halo: Reach a battle of one day instead of a month, although the Dr. Halsey's journal explains some discrepancies.

It bothers me the prescense of the Pillar of Autumn on Reach, and the easteregg of the M.C. in cryosleep, i could think that before they made the jump, the went back to Reach to meet Noble Six for the package. It bothered me from the beginning that this happened. I consider myself a hardcore fan and i used to love the canon until 343 step in and Bungie did this...

The game is awesome, the campaign is awesome, but why they had to change it?

343 hasn't done anything, why the hate?

Haters gonna hate my man.

  • 09.20.2010 4:14 PM PDT

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Posted by: Hysterical Joker

Posted by: MasterSin
I mean Bungie could have made the Game Halo: Reach a battle of one day instead of a month, although the Dr. Halsey's journal explains some discrepancies.

It bothers me the prescense of the Pillar of Autumn on Reach, and the easteregg of the M.C. in cryosleep, i could think that before they made the jump, the went back to Reach to meet Noble Six for the package. It bothered me from the beginning that this happened. I consider myself a hardcore fan and i used to love the canon until 343 step in and Bungie did this...

The game is awesome, the campaign is awesome, but why they had to change it?

343 hasn't done anything, why the hate?


Halo Legends? epic fail?

  • 09.20.2010 4:15 PM PDT
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Posted by: MasterSin

Posted by: Hysterical Joker

Posted by: MasterSin
I mean Bungie could have made the Game Halo: Reach a battle of one day instead of a month, although the Dr. Halsey's journal explains some discrepancies.

It bothers me the prescense of the Pillar of Autumn on Reach, and the easteregg of the M.C. in cryosleep, i could think that before they made the jump, the went back to Reach to meet Noble Six for the package. It bothered me from the beginning that this happened. I consider myself a hardcore fan and i used to love the canon until 343 step in and Bungie did this...

The game is awesome, the campaign is awesome, but why they had to change it?

343 hasn't done anything, why the hate?


Halo Legends? epic fail?

State what they did that seems to eclipse what Bugnie has done.

  • 09.20.2010 4:20 PM PDT


Posted by: MasterSin

Posted by: Hysterical Joker

Posted by: MasterSin
I mean Bungie could have made the Game Halo: Reach a battle of one day instead of a month, although the Dr. Halsey's journal explains some discrepancies.

It bothers me the prescense of the Pillar of Autumn on Reach, and the easteregg of the M.C. in cryosleep, i could think that before they made the jump, the went back to Reach to meet Noble Six for the package. It bothered me from the beginning that this happened. I consider myself a hardcore fan and i used to love the canon until 343 step in and Bungie did this...

The game is awesome, the campaign is awesome, but why they had to change it?

343 hasn't done anything, why the hate?


Halo Legends? epic fail?

What failed in it? Do you just dislike anime?
I mean, anime isn't my thing either, but just because it's anime doesn't mean its epic fail, at least they got the canon correct.

  • 09.20.2010 4:25 PM PDT

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The package:

1. Wrong Dr. Halseys age and look.

2. The Covenant fleet decided to jump to slipspace instead of finishing of the Spartans. When the books had stated several times the Covenant fights to the very end.

3.Any covenant ship use Energy shields. The Spartans never had the problem to border 2 Covenant ships ( lack of energy shields).

4. In the books is John thinks is highly impossible to board a Covenant ship, he question this thought when he is at the meeting with Dr. Cathering Halsey explaining the plan to capture a Prophet in the Fall of Reach. And he already boarded the Covenant flagship to rescue her afte the Battle of Miridem. (Years before the meeting in Reach)

[Edited on 09.20.2010 4:38 PM PDT]

  • 09.20.2010 4:35 PM PDT
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Posted by: MasterSin
The package:

1. Wrong Dr. Halseys age and look.

2. The Covenant fleet decided to jump to slipspace instead of finishing of the Spartans. When the books had stated several times the Covenant fights to the very end.

3.Any covenant ship use Energy shields. The Spartans never had the problem to border 2 Covenant ships ( lack of energy shields).

4. In the books is John thinks is highly impossible to board a Covenant ship, he question this thought when he is at the meeting with Dr. Cathering Halsey explaining the plan to capture a Prophet in the Fall of Reach.

1. Oh teh noes, Halsey is a young looking blond, the canon is completely destroyed!

2. Yes, on the ground. Someone I doubt they would just destroy every one of their ships in an effort to stop three more Spartans.

3. I'll give you this, but it hardly destroys canon.

4. This is before Reach, a lot can change in a few months. Chief was almost killed too, I would think that would weigh on his conscious.

So at best you have four errors on one episode is an 8 episode package. Hardly canon breaking.

  • 09.20.2010 4:39 PM PDT

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In the books is John thinks is highly impossible to board a Covenant ship, he question this thought when he is at the meeting with Dr. Cathering Halsey explaining the plan to capture a Prophet in the Fall of Reach. And he already boarded the Covenant flagship to rescue her afte the Battle of Miridem. (Years before the meeting in Reach)

It wasn't months, years! IT happened 2540 the battle for Reach was in 2552.

[Edited on 09.20.2010 4:45 PM PDT]

  • 09.20.2010 4:44 PM PDT


Posted by: MasterSin
The package:

1. Wrong Dr. Halseys age and look.

2. The Covenant fleet decided to jump to slipspace instead of finishing of the Spartans. When the books had stated several times the Covenant fights to the very end.

3.Any covenant ship use Energy shields. The Spartans never had the problem to border 2 Covenant ships ( lack of energy shields).

4. In the books is John thinks is highly impossible to board a Covenant ship, he question this thought when he is at the meeting with Dr. Cathering Halsey explaining the plan to capture a Prophet in the Fall of Reach.

1. Alright, I can see that. I mean, not a terrible mistake since it doesn't affect anything or create inconsistencies.

2. Not necessarily

3. There could have been some malfunction, but you're right, it could very well be an oversight. It's a minor detail that could be explained in a number of simple fixes, it doesn't create inconsistencies.

4. That doesn't sound any different, or maybe your wording is giving the wrong idea.

  • 09.20.2010 4:48 PM PDT

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Posted by: Hysterical Joker

Posted by: MasterSin
The package:

1. Wrong Dr. Halseys age and look.

2. The Covenant fleet decided to jump to slipspace instead of finishing of the Spartans. When the books had stated several times the Covenant fights to the very end.

3.Any covenant ship use Energy shields. The Spartans never had the problem to border 2 Covenant ships ( lack of energy shields).

4. In the books is John thinks is highly impossible to board a Covenant ship, he question this thought when he is at the meeting with Dr. Cathering Halsey explaining the plan to capture a Prophet in the Fall of Reach.

1. Alright, I can see that. I mean, not a terrible mistake since it doesn't affect anything or create inconsistencies.

2. Not necessarily

3. There could have been some malfunction, but you're right, it could very well be an oversight. It's a minor detail that could be explained in a number of simple fixes, it doesn't create inconsistencies.

4. That doesn't sound any different, or maybe your wording is giving the wrong idea.


It's not my word, but feel free to re-read the fall of Reach, you'll read John is not happy to board any Covenant ship and he thinks those are long odds even for a Spartan.

But you can always make sure reading it.

  • 09.20.2010 4:51 PM PDT
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The fact remains, a few errors in one short hardly means Legends failed, especially in comparison to Reach.

  • 09.20.2010 4:53 PM PDT

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Posted by: Go Vader
The fact remains, a few errors in one short hardly means Legends failed, especially in comparison to Reach.


Agree, we're back to Halo: Reach...such a disappointment from Bungie...

  • 09.20.2010 4:55 PM PDT


Posted by: MasterSin

Posted by: Go Vader
The fact remains, a few errors in one short hardly means Legends failed, especially in comparison to Reach.


Agree, we're back to Halo: Reach...such a disappointment from Bungie...

I don't see how you got to that point. I was asking why all the hate on 343, and you said it was because Halo Legends was an epic failure.

  • 09.20.2010 4:56 PM PDT
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Posted by: MasterSin

Posted by: Go Vader
The fact remains, a few errors in one short hardly means Legends failed, especially in comparison to Reach.


Agree, we're back to Halo: Reach...such a disappointment from Bungie...

So you can kindly remove the "until 343 screwed up canon" line from your post. This hatred towards absolutely little canon inconsistency towards 343 pisses me off, especially when I see people who hate 343 giving Bungie a free pass and not condemning their canon errors with Reach. Not particularly you.

  • 09.20.2010 4:57 PM PDT
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Most of the Legends mess-ups can be explained by artistic license. And it's obvious that Odd One Out is non-canon. They more or less stuck to the canon.

  • 09.20.2010 5:00 PM PDT

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Posted by: Go Vader
Posted by: MasterSin

Posted by: Go Vader
The fact remains, a few errors in one short hardly means Legends failed, especially in comparison to Reach.


Agree, we're back to Halo: Reach...such a disappointment from Bungie...

So you can kindly remove the "until 343 screwed up canon" line from your post. This hatred towards absolutely little canon inconsistency towards 343 pisses me off, especially when I see people who hate 343 giving Bungie a free pass and not condemning their canon errors with Reach. Not particularly you.


I don't remove my comments for Halo Legends, it is an epic fail, and you will keep defending it. But the real problem remains in Halo: Reach inconsistency.

  • 09.20.2010 5:19 PM PDT