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  • Subject: Unexplainable errors in the Halo canon. (Spoilers)
Subject: Unexplainable errors in the Halo canon. (Spoilers)

Brains beats brawn get used to it

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Variety is the spice of life.
Long live games.
Death to all fanboys.


Posted by: OrderedComa

Posted by: privet caboose
Posted by: Astronut7
Posted by: privet caboose
Since when did we ever consider ViDocs canon? They're the absolute lowest form; marketing.

I had no idea we weren't supposed to consider them canon. I thought they were as long as the information they provide is in-universe...
Does this also apply to articles such as Ten-Twenty and the information about Noble Team/Cole Protocol posted by Bungie on this website?


No, information posted in the weekly updates, such as the conversation 2401 had about the flood outbreak, are canon. The message between Kurt and Mendez, is canon.

Vidocs are marketing, and have always been considered one of the absolute lowest forms of canon. If anything states something that contradicts information in the vidoc, then the original source is canon. If an old book says something in a new vidoc is wrong, the book still takes precedence.


Doesn't new information overwrite old though, whether it's marketing or not? That's how I always interpreted what I heard about "new overwriting old" at least, is that any new information took precedence unless the source was something non-canon of course like Odd One Out.


There was still a ranking to it as Joe Staten stated on HBO. Indeed, if such a ranking system didn't exist then we'd all have to accept that the Chief fought in the second battle of New Mombasa in Halo 3 despite never taking one step into the city since returning to Earth.

  • 03.29.2011 11:13 AM PDT

Signatures are for squares.

There are two parts to the canon integrity.

First:
1. Games
2. Books
3. Marketing

Now, I don't necessarily believe that games are more important than the books, and I put them all the same level. However, it is always accepted that marketing(such as board games, or action figures) are always the absolute lowest tier.

Second:

"New material over-writes the old."

That only applies if say, a new book says something in an old book is wrong. Or if Halo 3 contradicted Halo 2, than Halo 3 takes precedence. If the description for a board game said that Mercy died after Truth, we would just ignore it because the game is a higher tier of canon, even if it's older.

  • 03.29.2011 12:56 PM PDT

Don't -blam!- with Kerser!

the big macs are far enohg to rech the space base i think...

  • 03.30.2011 2:15 AM PDT

GROSSMAN: Do you think of the Culture as a utopia? Would you live in it, if you could?

BANKS: Good grief yes, to both! What's not to like? ...Well, unless you're actually a fascist or a power junkie or sincerely believe that money rather than happiness is what really matters in life. And even people with those bizarre beliefs are catered for in the Culture, albeit in extreme-immersion VR environments.

KOTOR

Posted by: SteroidKloud
the big macs are far enohg to rech the space base i think...


*Has images of a Burger King in space, firing burgers at the Covenant* :D

  • 03.30.2011 8:27 AM PDT
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Regarding the Package...
Does anyone think it is a little odd that both the UNSC and the Covenant would expend so many resources over Halsey?
Did she have the co-ordinates for Earth memorized or something?
Maybe I'm missing something here...just how valuable is Halsey (herself, not her research) to either side?

  • 03.30.2011 9:47 AM PDT
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Deva Path


Posted by: DecepticonCobra

We are all going to get banned aren't we?


Posted by: Astronut7
Regarding the Package...
Does anyone think it is a little odd that both the UNSC and the Covenant would expend so many resources over Halsey?
Did she have the co-ordinates for Earth memorized or something?
Maybe I'm missing something here...just how valuable is Halsey (herself, not her research) to either side?


It isn't odd at all seeing how she pretty much made the SIIs, studied and understands most of covenant tech, able to translate basic forerunner writtings, etc.


She is the Einstein of the war.

  • 03.30.2011 9:50 AM PDT
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Yes, Halsey created the Spartan-II project. Yes, Halsey was behind the Mjolnir armor for the Spartans. But both these projects had been in operation for quite some time before she was captured. How vital was she really to these projects by this time?

Was she really worth risking the capture of some highly advanced prototype weaponry (the spacecraft the Spartans were riding), the advanced technology of the ONI prowler (cloaking), as well as the deployment of FIVE Spartans-IIs?

For that matter, why did the Covenant have Halsey alive? What were they planning to do with her? Why did the Covenant sacrifice so much just to kill a couple of Spartans? How did the Covenant know that Spartans would be assigned to rescue Halsey?
Little confused here...am I just missing the obvious?

[Edited on 03.30.2011 10:53 AM PDT]

  • 03.30.2011 10:52 AM PDT


Posted by: grey101

Posted by: Astronut7
Regarding the Package...
Does anyone think it is a little odd that both the UNSC and the Covenant would expend so many resources over Halsey?
Did she have the co-ordinates for Earth memorized or something?
Maybe I'm missing something here...just how valuable is Halsey (herself, not her research) to either side?


It isn't odd at all seeing how she pretty much made the SIIs, studied and understands most of covenant tech, able to translate basic forerunner writtings, etc.


She is the Einstein of the war.


Basically this. I'm not entirely sure what the Covies would desire of her, maybe force her to do operate Forerunner tech that only the Humans can?

But to the UNSC, she is incredibly value, definitely of the same caliber as Einstein, she's an immensely valuable resource in the field of science and technology.

  • 03.30.2011 10:53 AM PDT

Signatures are for squares.

Halsey's the one who created the newest generation of Smart AI's, designed MJOLNIR armor, created the Spartan II project...pretty much the most powerful stuff the UNSC has to use against the covenant. I'm sure the Covenant wanted her out of the question. As to why they simply didn't kill her? That's something else entirely. Maybe the same reason why the Covenant on Alpha Halo didn't kill Captain Keyes.

  • 03.30.2011 10:53 AM PDT
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Deva Path


Posted by: DecepticonCobra

We are all going to get banned aren't we?


Posted by: Astronut7
Little confused here...am I just missing the obvious?


You are, you should read the books again and see the roles she takes.

  • 03.30.2011 11:15 AM PDT
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@grey101
Hey, I'm not trying to dismiss Halsey as unimportant here. I know that Halsey is a genius. But if you look at the Package again, I see a highly advanced ONI stealth ship deployed to rescue Halsey. This stealth ship has some sort of energy bubble cloaking field as well as some unknown highly advanced weaponry. I don't think it would be a very good idea to have this ship fall into Covenant hands. I also don't know how ONI managed to pack so much advanced weaponry into those prototype booster frame things. Would it really be a good idea to have those fall into Covenant hands as well?
On top of that, FIVE highly valuable Spartan-IIs were deployed on this mission...a mission where two of them lost their lives within a couple of minutes of each other.
Maybe Halsey IS worth it. It's just that I would like to know what makes her that valuable...more than just "she's a genius" seeing as I think R&D was probably already well past Halsey's initial contributions to the Mjolnir, Spartan and AI projects. (By now, all of those projects would have TEAMS of people that were at least within sight of Halsey's intelligence).

I still don't understand why the Covenant left Halsey alive. Although that is a good point about Captain Keyes in Halo 1, privet caboose, as well as the marines on Halo 2. Come to think of it...the Covenant don't seem to have too good a track record with prisoners...

Anyway, laying a trap for the Spartans is fine, but how did the Covenant know that Spartans would be deployed to rescue Halsey? Why create such a fiendishly complicated plan, which required so much damage to their own battle cruisers, just on the off chance that they could kill a couple of Spartans?

Again, I know Halsey is important...but is she really THAT essential at the point she was captured?

[Edited on 03.30.2011 12:11 PM PDT]

  • 03.30.2011 12:04 PM PDT
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Deva Path


Posted by: DecepticonCobra

We are all going to get banned aren't we?


Posted by: Astronut7

I still don't understand why the Covenant left Halsey alive.

Also, laying a trap for the Spartans is fine, but how did the Covenant know that Spartans would be deployed to rescue Halsey? Why create such a fiendishly complicated plan, which required so much damage to their own battle cruisers, just on the off chance that they could kill a couple of Spartans?


They wanted her alive so they could use forerunner ruins that can only be used by humans or forerunners, that is the most basic and commen reason. Along with what should be obvious, seeing how Halsey so important they knew spartans were going to be sent; again not really hard to understand.

  • 03.30.2011 12:08 PM PDT
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@grey101
It seems to me that all the Covenant need is a human to activate some forerunner technology. After that, the Covenant seem to be able to use it just fine. They can use any human for that. If that's the only reason, then I think Halsey would be more useful to the Covenant dead.
Halsey might be so important that Spartans would be a preferred asset for the mission. But of course, the Covenant would have to know that the Spartans weren't tied up on other deployments. The UNSC only had a one-shot ten minute window to attack. What if the Spartans just couldn't get there in time?

How long did the Covenant have Halsey, anyway? That must have taken quite a while to rig that trap...unless Covenant ships come with the ability to detach certain sections...?

  • 03.30.2011 12:26 PM PDT

As far as I know, the Assault carriers can do that regardless of situation. Even if they couldn't, that's not something you could jury-rig quickly for a trap and still have slipspace drive capable.

  • 03.30.2011 12:50 PM PDT

I don't like cocaine, I just like the way it smells.

Posted by: Astronut7
@grey101
Hey, I'm not trying to dismiss Halsey as unimportant here. I know that Halsey is a genius. But if you look at the Package again, I see a highly advanced ONI stealth ship deployed to rescue Halsey. This stealth ship has some sort of energy bubble cloaking field as well as some unknown highly advanced weaponry. I don't think it would be a very good idea to have this ship fall into Covenant hands. I also don't know how ONI managed to pack so much advanced weaponry into those prototype booster frame things. Would it really be a good idea to have those fall into Covenant hands as well?
On top of that, FIVE highly valuable Spartan-IIs were deployed on this mission...a mission where two of them lost their lives within a couple of minutes of each other.
Maybe Halsey IS worth it. It's just that I would like to know what makes her that valuable...more than just "she's a genius" seeing as I think R&D was probably already well past Halsey's initial contributions to the Mjolnir, Spartan and AI projects. (By now, all of those projects would have TEAMS of people that were at least within sight of Halsey's intelligence).

I still don't understand why the Covenant left Halsey alive. Although that is a good point about Captain Keyes in Halo 1, privet caboose, as well as the marines on Halo 2. Come to think of it...the Covenant don't seem to have too good a track record with prisoners...

Anyway, laying a trap for the Spartans is fine, but how did the Covenant know that Spartans would be deployed to rescue Halsey? Why create such a fiendishly complicated plan, which required so much damage to their own battle cruisers, just on the off chance that they could kill a couple of Spartans?

Again, I know Halsey is important...but is she really THAT essential at the point she was captured?

Read the back of Halo: The Fall of Reach, 2010 edition.

[Edited on 03.30.2011 1:16 PM PDT]

  • 03.30.2011 1:15 PM PDT

Brains beats brawn get used to it

Fear the Red Comet

Variety is the spice of life.
Long live games.
Death to all fanboys.

For those that haven't read the adjunct at the back of the reissued Fall of Reach here is a very brief summary of the situation.

Halsey was captured because from the Covenant's point of view there was implied importance to her due to the presence of a Spartan (Sheila) protecting her. It is solely this fact alone that they kept her. They don't know why she's important, just that she's important enough to warrant a Spartan bodyguard and therefore worthwhile to keep.

  • 03.30.2011 1:34 PM PDT

Don't -blam!- with Kerser!

Posted by: Orphius_Rex
Posted by: SteroidKloud
the big macs are far enohg to rech the space base i think...


*Has images of a Burger King in space, firing burgers at the Covenant* :D


That was the reply i was hoping for.

  • 03.31.2011 2:01 AM PDT

GROSSMAN: Do you think of the Culture as a utopia? Would you live in it, if you could?

BANKS: Good grief yes, to both! What's not to like? ...Well, unless you're actually a fascist or a power junkie or sincerely believe that money rather than happiness is what really matters in life. And even people with those bizarre beliefs are catered for in the Culture, albeit in extreme-immersion VR environments.

KOTOR

Posted by: SteroidKloud
Posted by: Orphius_Rex
Posted by: SteroidKloud
the big macs are far enohg to rech the space base i think...


*Has images of a Burger King in space, firing burgers at the Covenant* :D


That was the reply i was hoping for.


Well played sir, well played :D

  • 04.01.2011 1:28 AM PDT


Posted by: ExquisiteDragon
Caboose, here's a challenge for you. Take Halo Reach and squash as many events you can into a 24 hour period. I'm curios to see what you come up with.


Even less actually. The first time we were told information the battle wasn't even a day I believe.

  • 04.01.2011 6:33 AM PDT
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Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron

Posted by: ExquisiteDragon
Caboose, here's a challenge for you. Take Halo Reach and squash as many events you can into a 24 hour period. I'm curios to see what you come up with.


Even less actually. The first time we were told information the battle wasn't even a day I believe.


The space battle was over in two hours. Fighting on the ground continued for weeks.

  • 04.01.2011 6:36 AM PDT
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Posted by: Orphius_Rex
Posted by: SteroidKloud
Posted by: Orphius_Rex
Posted by: SteroidKloud
the big macs are far enohg to rech the space base i think...


*Has images of a Burger King in space, firing burgers at the Covenant* :D


That was the reply i was hoping for.


Well played sir, well played :D


No, that would TOTALLY break canon and ruin EVERYTHING!!! Big Macs are from McDonalds, not Burger King.

  • 04.01.2011 7:43 AM PDT

Signatures are for squares.

Posted by: ExquisiteDragon
Caboose, here's a challenge for you. Take Halo Reach and squash as many events you can into a 24 hour period. I'm curios to see what you come up with.


Mission 1:
Main Character: Fred
Description: ODST style mission where it's an intro cutscene, only difference is there's some actual gameplay. You can maneuver around and look through the sky as you fall from the pelican towards Reach. You'd see your spartan team flying through the sky with you.

Mission 2:
Main Character: Fred
Description: Training-esque mission. The player is forced to play without a gun or shielding while moving through a forest and regrouping with his spartans. Eventually you'd kill something(via melee) and get a plasma pistol from a jackal or grunt. Once you've got a weapon, your objective is to get to Malcolm's armor to salvage a piece of his armor. Once you get to his location, you get shielding again, as Fred's shield generator malfunctioned after the drop. Your final objective is to fight through the rest of the forest and regroup with the surviving spartans.

Mission 3:
Main Character: Fred (Alpha Team)
Description: After a cutscene where the Spartans find the generators, Fred splits his Spartan's into four fire teams, and they all split up. This level follows Alpha Team's assault on the covenant camp. You'd fight Covenant as you make your way to the Banshees. Once in the Banshee, you'd fly over the thousands of Covenant troops below(it's possible, Shishka even said that the portion of Kingdom Hearts II where you fight 1,000 heartless proves it so.) You'd avoid turret fire, other banshees, and shoot at troops below until you reach a certain point under the cruiser, and that's when a cutscene of Kelly throwing the bomb into the gravlift is played. The mission continues as you fly the banshee out of the vally and Josh is shot down. The mission ends as you see the ship explode.

Mission 4:
Main Character: Grace (Gamma Team)
Description: Make your way from the generators to Admiral Whitcomb. There's a lot of freedom for Bungie here, because this part of the story wasn't described. They can move through a town or pretty much anything. So long as the mission ends with Gamma reaching Whitcomb.

Mission 5:
Main Character: William (Delta Team)
Description: Delta Team takes two warthogs and heads towards Castle Base to secure the fallback point. Once again, Bungie has a lot of freedom here as the only thing we know is that all 6 spartans left the generators in two warthogs, and only three of the Spartans made it back to Castle. They could have the team get split up at some point in the mission. Mission ends once Delta Team arrives at Castle Base.

Mission 6:
Main Character: New Spartan (Beta Team)
Description: Firefight style mission where the objective is to assist your fellow spartans in defending the generators for a specified amount of time. There would be turrets set up around the facility, as well as tons of ammo and rockets. You'd have AI Spartans assisting you, and there would be a "health" bar for the generators(much like generator defense.) The mission ends after 10:00-15:00 minutes, and a cutscene plays showing 5 or 6 of the Beta Team spartans dying, and the remaining Beta members retreat as the Covenant overrun the facility. The cutscene ends as one of your spartans sends the transmission: "The generators are over-run, we're falling back-"

Mission 7:
Main Character: Fred (Alpha Team)
Description: The mission begins directly after mission 3 ended. The beginning cutscene shows various Covenant ships breaking orbit as Fred hears Beta Teams final transmission. Kelly says, "That's it, we've lost." Fred replies, "maybe not," and the mission begins. The objective is to fight through heavily populated Covenant territory. Eventually you come across two unmanned wraiths, and use them to push your way towards your fallback point, which is castle base. The mission ends with a cutscene of Fred and Kelly linking up with Delta Team, who then open the door which reveals Halsey.

Mission 8:
Main Character: Beta Team Spartan (Same one you played as in mission 6)
Description: The remaining members of Beta Team attempt to survive and link up with UNSC forces. Bungie has total freedom with this mission, as it's an untold part of the story.

Mission 9:
Main Character: Beta Team Spartan
Description: Once again, Bungie has total freedom as this mission would be a part of Beta's story, which is untold.

Mission 10:
Main Character: Beta Team Spartan
Description: The final mission of the Beta Team story. The final few Beta Team spartans would need to end up dead by the end of the mission, otherwise, Bungie has total freedom with this. They could be trying to evac civilians or anything really.

Mission 11:
Main Character: Master Chief
Description: A cutscene dated weeks after the Battle for Reach is shown. We see the planet on fire(how we see it on Condemned)only a small portion of the planet remains intact. Johnson and the other survivors from Alpha Halo board a Spirit and fly down to the planet. The mission begins as Chief gets a waypoint over a small shelter a few kilometers away after hearing a transmission from Gamma Team. As you pilot the spirit, you fly through burning cities(like New Alexandria) and see various covenant vehicles below. You regroup with Gamma Team, and then head to Castle Base after you're informed that that was the fallback point. You'd then fly the spirit towards Castle and see the enormous camp around the facility. A cutscene plays of you flying inside of it, and then there's a small gameplay segment of you landing and fighting off waves of Covenant as Halsey and the surviving spartans board the Spirit and you fly away. As the spirit gets into the Covenant ship overhead, The Spartans question how Chief got a Covenant ship, to which he replies "it's a long story, lets find a way home." Then the game ends.



This type of story is precisely what Reach should have been. It shows us all the events fans of the book wanted to SEE. It gives us a brand new story with Beta Team, and would explain what finally happened to them. We would see the destruction of Reach and the fall of the Spartan's as they were slaughtered throughout the campaign. And finally, we'd get an ending that's satisfying, and leaves the possibility of a DLC campaign open.

Of course, this story DOESN'T take place in a 24 hour period. It simply starts on the 30th. Also, I debated putting Blue Teams space operation in the start of the story, but I decided not to as I feel like it should focus on Red Team more, and Chief still gets to make his appearance. As does Keyes(at the start of the game.) Halsey, and Johnson.

  • 04.01.2011 7:44 AM PDT

Brains beats brawn get used to it

Fear the Red Comet

Variety is the spice of life.
Long live games.
Death to all fanboys.


Posted by: Nameless Oracle

Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron

Posted by: ExquisiteDragon
Caboose, here's a challenge for you. Take Halo Reach and squash as many events you can into a 24 hour period. I'm curios to see what you come up with.


Even less actually. The first time we were told information the battle wasn't even a day I believe.


The space battle was over in two hours. Fighting on the ground continued for weeks.


The planet was effectively a lost cause after the UNSC was defeated in space. Sure there were guerrilla activities by the Spartans for weeks, but it hardly mattered in terms of the overall outcome of the battle itself as a whole.

In the short run it was a massive crushing victory for the Covenant even without the Forerunner Crystal and losses they took as they decimated the last human military stronghold before Earth and still had a massive amount of resources at their hands. (Even after losing fleet as a result of Operation First Strike) But in the long run, Reach burning eventually forced the Chief to end up at Halo and that just changed the momentum of the war in its entirety.

  • 04.01.2011 7:48 AM PDT