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  • Subject: Unexplainable errors in the Halo canon. (Spoilers)
Subject: Unexplainable errors in the Halo canon. (Spoilers)

Signatures are for squares.

You're damn lucky I don't have my Ghosts of Oynx(lending it to a friend.)

But during the PROMETHEUS overview Kurt specifically states 300 Spartan III's hit the ground and were part of the operation.

At the start of Torpedo it's stated that all but 13 Beta Spartans were present. (Didn't 4 go MIA in the off limits zone on Oynx? And then the 9 who were MIA after the pods hit the ground.)

  • 04.11.2011 6:15 AM PDT
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Alpha had originally 497 trainees which is stated on page 69.
Then those who stood out from the company were hand-picked during/after their training and subsequently assigned to other units.

  • 04.11.2011 6:59 AM PDT


Posted by: manwith
Posted by: UL7IM4 G33K
Posted by: manwith
You said it yourself. Survivors.

Except that all 300 of each company were sent out on suicide missions and all 600 save for Tom and Lucy were KIA. So unless between leaving Onyx and arriving at their mission they were snatched via an ONI corvette without Kurt's or Ackerson's knowledge it still doesn't make sense.


At no point was it said that every member of the entire company was sent to suicide mission.


It was stated that every member of Alpha who went on their mission died.

Nearly the same with Beta. Heck, if you are raging about Noble Team, rage first about Headhunters, they came from EVERY company.

  • 04.11.2011 7:19 AM PDT

Signatures are for squares.

Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron

Posted by: manwith
Posted by: UL7IM4 G33K
Posted by: manwith
You said it yourself. Survivors.

Except that all 300 of each company were sent out on suicide missions and all 600 save for Tom and Lucy were KIA. So unless between leaving Onyx and arriving at their mission they were snatched via an ONI corvette without Kurt's or Ackerson's knowledge it still doesn't make sense.


At no point was it said that every member of the entire company was sent to suicide mission.


It was stated that every member of Alpha who went on their mission died.

Nearly the same with Beta. Heck, if you are raging about Noble Team, rage first about Headhunters, they came from EVERY company.


The difference is, it's stated that Headhunters were trained in secret. The other III's didn't even know they existed.

  • 04.11.2011 12:20 PM PDT

IRISHWhartHog58

When you say Prototype, I think you are referring to the story in Halo Legends DVD? If so, than yes it was canon absolutely. It ties in with Project Orion, which came before project Spartan. The only thing that is not canon and stated that it isn't was the episode on the DVD that was made from the creators of DBZ, they made it for a spoof.

  • 04.11.2011 12:42 PM PDT


Posted by: privet caboose
Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron

Posted by: manwith
Posted by: UL7IM4 G33K
Posted by: manwith
You said it yourself. Survivors.

Except that all 300 of each company were sent out on suicide missions and all 600 save for Tom and Lucy were KIA. So unless between leaving Onyx and arriving at their mission they were snatched via an ONI corvette without Kurt's or Ackerson's knowledge it still doesn't make sense.


At no point was it said that every member of the entire company was sent to suicide mission.


It was stated that every member of Alpha who went on their mission died.

Nearly the same with Beta. Heck, if you are raging about Noble Team, rage first about Headhunters, they came from EVERY company.


The difference is, it's stated that Headhunters were trained in secret. The other III's didn't even know they existed.


I don't remember that being stated at all.

I remember the recruits were handpicked from the companies and sent to another training camp on the other side of Onyx, which meant that, guess what? The other Spartan IIIs knew the people who went in.

  • 04.11.2011 1:15 PM PDT


Posted by: ExquisiteDragon
Hey, was Prototype canon?


Yes. Every episode in Halo Legends is canon except for Odd One Out.

  • 04.11.2011 1:37 PM PDT

Signatures are for squares.

It was stated in the story that the other III's were unaware of Headhunters existence.

  • 04.11.2011 4:04 PM PDT


Posted by: privet caboose
It was stated in the story that the other III's were unaware of Headhunters existence.


My point is, doesn't it also state the headhunters were picked from the companies during/soon after training and sent to the other training camp?

That means they were 'pulled' from the company before the suicide mission, just like Noble Team and others were as stated by the letter.

  • 04.11.2011 4:16 PM PDT

http://www.halo-forum.com

Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron

Posted by: privet caboose
It was stated in the story that the other III's were unaware of Headhunters existence.


My point is, doesn't it also state the headhunters were picked from the companies during/soon after training and sent to the other training camp?

That means they were 'pulled' from the company before the suicide mission, just like Noble Team and others were as stated by the letter.

Or another possibility;

Alpha initially had 497 candidates. 300 were used for the main part of Alpha Company, the "disposable heroes" group. This leaves 197 candidates that were not included. What if the Headhunters and other Spec Ops units were drafted from this group of candidates? This would explain how the actual number deployed on PROMETHEUS is 300 despite the fact that Noble Team's IIIs and probably others are still alive. They were part of the "washouts". Imagine a scenario something like this:

Mendez: "After initial screening the following recruits will be continuing training"

*List of recruits to be included in Alpha*

Mendez: "Anyone who has not been called will not be taking part in this program"

*Carter, Emile and Jun walk away with sad faces*

ONI Officer: "Psst, come here. You are going to be trained seperately."

This logic could be used for Beta Company, and explains where the extra numbers for Noble, Echo, Gauntlet and Headhunters came from, as well as how their fellow Spartan IIIs were unaware of their existence, without messing with the actual company's numbers.

[Edited on 04.11.2011 4:46 PM PDT]

  • 04.11.2011 4:29 PM PDT

Hi.

Posted by: switch 104 sv
Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron

Posted by: privet caboose
It was stated in the story that the other III's were unaware of Headhunters existence.


My point is, doesn't it also state the headhunters were picked from the companies during/soon after training and sent to the other training camp?

That means they were 'pulled' from the company before the suicide mission, just like Noble Team and others were as stated by the letter.

Or another possibility;

Alpha initially had 497 candidates. 300 were used for the main part of Alpha Company, the "disposable heroes" group. This leaves 197 candidates that were not included. What if the Headhunters and other Spec Ops units were drafted from this group of candidates? This would explain how the actual number deployed on PROMETHEUS is 300 despite the fact that Noble Team's IIIs and probably others are still alive. They were part of the "washouts". Imagine a scenario something like this:

Mendez: "After initial screening the following recruits will be continuing training"

*List of recruits to be included in Alpha*

Mendez: "Anyone who has not been called will not be taking part in this program"

*Carter, Emile and Jun walk away with sad faces*

ONI Officer: "Psst, come here. You are going to be trained seperately."

This logic could be used for Beta Company, and explains where the extra numbers for Noble, Echo, Gauntlet and Headhunters came from, as well as how their fellow Spartan IIIs were unaware of their existence, without messing with the actual company's numbers.


There were no,"washouts" in SIII's. All of them made it, only to be killed in suicide missions.

  • 04.11.2011 6:51 PM PDT


Posted by: Dorklord81
Posted by: switch 104 sv
Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron

Posted by: privet caboose
It was stated in the story that the other III's were unaware of Headhunters existence.


My point is, doesn't it also state the headhunters were picked from the companies during/soon after training and sent to the other training camp?

That means they were 'pulled' from the company before the suicide mission, just like Noble Team and others were as stated by the letter.

Or another possibility;

Alpha initially had 497 candidates. 300 were used for the main part of Alpha Company, the "disposable heroes" group. This leaves 197 candidates that were not included. What if the Headhunters and other Spec Ops units were drafted from this group of candidates? This would explain how the actual number deployed on PROMETHEUS is 300 despite the fact that Noble Team's IIIs and probably others are still alive. They were part of the "washouts". Imagine a scenario something like this:

Mendez: "After initial screening the following recruits will be continuing training"

*List of recruits to be included in Alpha*

Mendez: "Anyone who has not been called will not be taking part in this program"

*Carter, Emile and Jun walk away with sad faces*

ONI Officer: "Psst, come here. You are going to be trained seperately."

This logic could be used for Beta Company, and explains where the extra numbers for Noble, Echo, Gauntlet and Headhunters came from, as well as how their fellow Spartan IIIs were unaware of their existence, without messing with the actual company's numbers.


There were no,"washouts" in SIII's. All of them made it, only to be killed in suicide missions.


Correction: All of them made it though augmentation, and all those sent on the suicide missions died, bar Tom, Lucy, and the group that were labeled MIA at the start of beta's suicide mission.

  • 04.11.2011 6:55 PM PDT

http://www.halo-forum.com

Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron

Posted by: Dorklord81
Posted by: switch 104 sv
Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron

Posted by: privet caboose
It was stated in the story that the other III's were unaware of Headhunters existence.


My point is, doesn't it also state the headhunters were picked from the companies during/soon after training and sent to the other training camp?

That means they were 'pulled' from the company before the suicide mission, just like Noble Team and others were as stated by the letter.

Or another possibility;

Alpha initially had 497 candidates. 300 were used for the main part of Alpha Company, the "disposable heroes" group. This leaves 197 candidates that were not included. What if the Headhunters and other Spec Ops units were drafted from this group of candidates? This would explain how the actual number deployed on PROMETHEUS is 300 despite the fact that Noble Team's IIIs and probably others are still alive. They were part of the "washouts". Imagine a scenario something like this:

Mendez: "After initial screening the following recruits will be continuing training"

*List of recruits to be included in Alpha*

Mendez: "Anyone who has not been called will not be taking part in this program"

*Carter, Emile and Jun walk away with sad faces*

ONI Officer: "Psst, come here. You are going to be trained seperately."

This logic could be used for Beta Company, and explains where the extra numbers for Noble, Echo, Gauntlet and Headhunters came from, as well as how their fellow Spartan IIIs were unaware of their existence, without messing with the actual company's numbers.


There were no,"washouts" in SIII's. All of them made it, only to be killed in suicide missions.


Correction: All of them made it though augmentation, and all those sent on the suicide missions died, bar Tom, Lucy, and the group that were labeled MIA at the start of beta's suicide mission.

Mendez also makes note of a selection process after the initial candidates have been found, narrowing the larger number down to the 300 ish we see.

  • 04.12.2011 2:42 AM PDT

"I may not be perfect, but always been true."

That's a good theory, I can totally see that happening. On a side note, the only inconsistence is that most of the non-recruited candidates became drill instructors for the next Companies, but apart from that, it's totally plausible.

  • 04.12.2011 10:03 AM PDT

(') (')
(0_o) ROAR!!!
(") (")

you sir did some digging...

  • 04.12.2011 12:27 PM PDT

It's simple, Halo takes place in two seperate dimensions. :P
I just tend to keep the books and Reach as two different story lines culminating in the trilogy.

  • 04.12.2011 2:16 PM PDT

http://www.halo-forum.com

Posted by: RKOSNAKE
That's a good theory, I can totally see that happening. On a side note, the only inconsistence is that most of the non-recruited candidates became drill instructors for the next Companies, but apart from that, it's totally plausible.

Most=/=All

Even if only 10% of the non-recruited candidates went into Spec Ops teams that's still around 20 from alpha, and 12 from Beta, not including the recruited candidates Kurt pulled. There are more than enough ways to explain where these "canon breaking" Spartan IIIs came from.

  • 04.12.2011 3:11 PM PDT

"Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind." - Albert Einstien

If I really wanted to argue this I would have to re-read the my Ghosts of Onyx book (and I can guarantee it isn't a retconned version, none of my books are). Still I can distinctly remember the book left no room for these spartans to exist. It just doesn't make sense.

  • 04.12.2011 3:49 PM PDT

http://www.halo-forum.com

Posted by: UL7IM4 G33K
If I really wanted to argue this I would have to re-read the my Ghosts of Onyx book (and I can guarantee it isn't a retconned version, none of my books are). Still I can distinctly remember the book left no room for these spartans to exist. It just doesn't make sense.

Evidently it did. I have explained one possibility above and Kurt's Transmission explains even more.

  • 04.12.2011 3:51 PM PDT

"Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind." - Albert Einstien

Posted by: switch 104 sv
Posted by: UL7IM4 G33K
If I really wanted to argue this I would have to re-read the my Ghosts of Onyx book (and I can guarantee it isn't a retconned version, none of my books are). Still I can distinctly remember the book left no room for these spartans to exist. It just doesn't make sense.

Evidently it did. I have explained one possibility above and Kurt's Transmission explains even more.


My book does not have the section above. In fact, immediately after the introductory night drop mission given to Alpha it immediately jumps to discussion about Beta company and the aftermath of Operation Prometheus (which is no survivors). Also keep in mind that Alpha company was active for 9 months prior to Prometheus, which leaves plenty of room for Spartans to fall. Then you have any washouts (which is also mentioned when discussing Beta company's higher percentage of graduates).

197 - washouts - Headhunters. They also stated "leaving us with around 300 Spartans" which indicates that the final number upon going active was only about 300 and a similar number of candidates would be present with the higher success rate and lower number candidates initially. So even if a large number of Spartan III's were selected from that 197 extra children why would they be seeing similar numbers in the next batch?

  • 04.12.2011 4:19 PM PDT

http://www.halo-forum.com

for the time being lets assume that none of the non-recruited candidates took part in other spec Ops missions. Despite this, all of Noble Team can be accounted for. The argument that both Alpha and Beta Company were completely wiped out on their respective missions is flat out wrong. It is true to an extent i.e. all of the Spartan IIIs that were sent on their company's respective suicide OPs died (excluding Tom and Lucy). However, there are explanations for each of the members of Noble still being alive after their company's destruction:

Kat (Beta Company)

According to Kurt's Transmission, Kat was not deployed on TORPEDO, due to her being injured during the previous operation, CARTWHEEL. Kurt used her medical recovery time to keep her out of her company' destruction.

Noble 6 (Beta Compnay)

Kurt states that he was taken out of the main Company directly after training.


Carter, Emile, Jun (Alpha Company)

It is now obvious that Kurt withheld numerous Spartan IIIs from their company's final missions. Evidence of this is his transmission regarding Beta Company, but more importantly the existence of the Headhunters. Even if all other eight Beta company "deaths", not including N6, were put into the Headhunter program, this is not enough to make up the numbers. At the program's height there were 6 two-man teams, 12 Spartans, with 17 others rotating into positions when one or more of a team was killed. That is 29 Spartan IIIs needed, and clearly they can't all be Beta Spartans because the numbers don't add up. It is also obvious that Gamma Company cannot be included based on deployment time and age. This means that the others would have to be from from Alpha, and there we have clear evidence that Spartans were witheld from PROMETHEUS, which leaves room to say that Carter, Emile and Jun were also saved.

Ghost of Onyx is 100% canon, but the perspective from which the book is written leaves room to allow for the survival of more Spartan IIIs than the novel actually implies. Basically, GoO is right to say that all the Spartan IIIs of Alpha and Beta died But obviously, in actual fact, that is not the case, as I have explained above. Reach, and by extension Evolutions, does not break canon by including the survival of Spartan IIIs from Alpha and Beta Companies.

Now factor in the possibility that some of the non-recruited numbers were used for similar programs/teams as well as "1.08% total strength" (3 Spartans) of Beta that was "absorbed" (read: saved) and the 2 Spatans from Beta sent on "long term reconnaissance", 170 and 091, and there are the potential numbers to fill all these ranks as well as that of Echo, Gauntlet and the original, now deceased, members of Noble which Jun, Emile, Jorge and 6 replaced.

EDIT: Since there were at most only 29 Headhunters, then that still leaves 172 Alpha candidates that could potentially be any of the other Spartans, not to mention the 118 leftovers from Beta. Also remmber Beta Company's mission:

"Nine hadn't made it." Ghosts of Onyx, page 14.

Based off this we know that nine Spartans were not present during TORPEDO that Tom was led to believe were deployed. But there is always the possibility that they were never deployed at all, giving anothe nine potential Beta survivors.



[Edited on 04.12.2011 5:05 PM PDT]

  • 04.12.2011 4:32 PM PDT


Posted by: switch 104 sv
Noble 6 (Beta Compnay)

"Nine hadn't made it." Ghosts of Onyx, page 14.

Based off this we know that nine Spartans were not present during TORPEDO that Tom was led to believe were deployed. However, his/her Performance Report explains how he/she was affiliated with ONI as an assassin. ONI have a habit of "commandeering" Spartans. It is likely that Noble 6 is one of the nine who "died" on entry.



I'd agree with that one, if it hadn't been stated in Kurt's letter that Noble Six had been pulled from the rest of the company directly after training and augmentations were complete.

  • 04.12.2011 4:56 PM PDT

http://www.halo-forum.com

Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron

Posted by: switch 104 sv
Noble 6 (Beta Compnay)

"Nine hadn't made it." Ghosts of Onyx, page 14.

Based off this we know that nine Spartans were not present during TORPEDO that Tom was led to believe were deployed. However, his/her Performance Report explains how he/she was affiliated with ONI as an assassin. ONI have a habit of "commandeering" Spartans. It is likely that Noble 6 is one of the nine who "died" on entry.



I'd agree with that one, if it hadn't been stated in Kurt's letter that Noble Six had been pulled from the rest of the company directly after training and augmentations were complete.

I never noticed that. well that just frees up one more Beta suvivor then.

[Edited on 04.12.2011 5:00 PM PDT]

  • 04.12.2011 4:58 PM PDT

"Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind." - Albert Einstien

Posted by: switch 104 sv
Kat (Beta Company)

According to Kurt's Transmission, Kat was not deployed on TORPEDO, due to her being injured during the previous operation, CARTWHEEL. Kurt used her medical recovery time to keep her out of her company' destruction.

Judging from Alpha, Kurt was not briefed on the Spartan III's missions until their completion. So I'm not sure how Kurt would have known to keep Kat out of harm's way. And this "transmission" is not present within my book either. While that may be seen as a cop-out the book does not seem to indicate that Kurt was EVER informed of a mission prior to its execution. No drill instructor is. Do you think Mendez was briefed on every Spartan II mission and given the option to withhold troops? I doubt it.

Posted by: switch 104 sv
Noble 6 (Beta Compnay)

"Nine hadn't made it." Ghosts of Onyx, page 14.

Based off this we know that nine Spartans were not present during TORPEDO that Tom was led to believe were deployed. However, his/her Performance Report explains how he/she was affiliated with ONI as an assassin. ONI have a habit of "commandeering" Spartans. It is likely that Noble 6 is one of the nine who "died" on entry.

That is not at all how that quote reads. It is taken horribly out of context.

"Additional dots appeared on his heads-up screen... a dozen, two dozen, and then hundreds. The rest of Beta Company was online. Two hundred and ninety-one of them. Nine hadn't made it, either dead on reentry or killed from the impact or by Covenant forces before they could get out of the pods."

It would be difficult for ONI to black bag anyone MID FLIGHT in Orbital Drop Pods deep within Covenant owned space. That is just beyond farfetched.

Posted by: switch 104 sv
Carter, Emile, Jun (Alpha Company)

It is now obvious that Kurt withheld numerous Spartan IIIs from their company's final missions. Evidence of this is his transmission regarding Beta Company, but more importantly the existence of the Headhunters. Even if all other eight Beta company "deaths", not including N6, were put into the Headhunter program, this is not enough to make up the numbers. At the program's height there were 6 two-man teams, 12 Spartans, with 17 others rotating into positions when one or more of a team was killed. That is 29 Spartan IIIs needed, and clearly they can't all be Beta Spartans because the numbers don't add up. It is also obvious that Gamma Company cannot be included based on deployment time and age. This means that the others would have to be from from Alpha, and there we have clear evidence that Spartans were witheld from PROMETHEUS, which leaves room to say that Carter, Emile and Jun were also saved.

Read first reply. The book indicates that Kurt was given details on missions POST op. So him keeping Spartan's from participating is extremely unlikely, not to mention in violation of command.

Posted by: switch 104 sv
Ghost of Onyx is 100% canon, but the perspective from which the book is written leaves room to allow for the survival of more Spartan IIIs than the novel actually implies. Basically, GoO is right to say that all the Spartan IIIs of Alpha and Beta died But obviously, in actual fact, that is not the case, as I have explained above. Reach, and by extension Evolutions, does not break canon by including the survival of Spartan IIIs from Alpha and Beta Companies.

Your above explanations are invalid by that book you declare 100% cannon. Seeing as Kurt was basically a protagonist and your explanation involves him heavily (yet the book does not echo that involvement) I'm not sure where you want to go with that.

Posted by: switch 104 sv
Now factor in the possibility that some of the non-recruited numbers were used for similar programs/teams as well as "1.08% total strength" (3 Spartans) of Beta that was "absorbed" (read: saved) and the 2 Spatans from Beta sent on "long term reconnaissance", 170 and 091, and there are the potential numbers to fill all these ranks as well as that of Echo, Gauntlet and the original, now deceased, members of Noble which Jun, Emile, Jorge and 6 replaced.

This program was about mass producing Spartans. Why syphon them off to other places when their original purpose was en-mass? Why would command be irritated with having "only about 300" if they seemed to have enough left over to send to X,Y and Z secret programs?

[Edited on 04.12.2011 5:10 PM PDT]

  • 04.12.2011 5:04 PM PDT