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  • Subject: Unexplainable errors in the Halo canon. (Spoilers)
Subject: Unexplainable errors in the Halo canon. (Spoilers)

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Posted by: UL7IM4 G33K
Posted by: switch 104 sv
Kat (Beta Company)

According to Kurt's Transmission, Kat was not deployed on TORPEDO, due to her being injured during the previous operation, CARTWHEEL. Kurt used her medical recovery time to keep her out of her company' destruction.[/quote]
Judging from Alpha, Kurt was not briefed on the Spartan III's missions until their completion. So I'm not sure how Kurt would have known to keep Kat out of harm's way. And this "transmission" is not present within my book either. While that may be seen as a cop-out the book does not seem to indicate that Kurt was EVER informed of a mission prior to its execution. No drill instructor is. Do you think Mendez was briefed on every Spartan III mission and given the option to withhold troops? I doubt it.

Kat was from Beta, not Alpha. After Alpha's massacre Kurt was told by his superiors that if they were given the opportunity to do a similar thing hey would, hence why he knew to watch out for Beta Company. As for how, GoO explains that Kut developed techniques on keeping track of his Spartans after deployment, the privelages of position/rank or something like that (not a direct quote, I don't have the book here).

Also, the transmission is not in the book. I supplied a link to it for people to read. Ghosts of Onyx is not the sole canon source for the IIIs.

Posted by: switch 104 sv
Noble 6 (Beta Compnay)

"Nine hadn't made it." Ghosts of Onyx, page 14.

Based off this we know that nine Spartans were not present during TORPEDO that Tom was led to believe were deployed. However, his/her Performance Report explains how he/she was affiliated with ONI as an assassin. ONI have a habit of "commandeering" Spartans. It is likely that Noble 6 is one of the nine who "died" on entry.

That is not at all how that quote reads. It is taken horribly out of context.

"Additional dots appeared on his heads-up screen... a dozen, two dozen, and then hundreds. The rest of Beta Company was online. Two hundred and ninety-one of them. Nine hadn't made it, either dead on reentry or killed from the impact or by Covenant forces before they could get out of the pods."

It would be difficult for ONI to black bag anyone MID FLIGHT in Orbital Drop Pods deep within Covenant owned space. That is just beyond farfetched.

I have edited my Noble 6 post, Kurt pulled him straight after taining finished, again stated in the transmission.

You misunderstand, I'm not suggestin that ONI plucked their pods up mid-flight, nor that thye picked them up on the surface of Pegasi. I'm suggesting that they were not sent. So nine nine Spartans got in their pods and and far as the rest of the group knew they launched, but those particular nine pods stayed on the ship. There would be no way fro the rest of them to know this until they landed because they were deployed in slipspace, hence why Tom checked everyone's status whe they hit dirt.

Posted by: switch 104 sv
Carter, Emile, Jun (Alpha Company)

It is now obvious that Kurt withheld numerous Spartan IIIs from their company's final missions. Evidence of this is his transmission regarding Beta Company, but more importantly the existence of the Headhunters. Even if all other eight Beta company "deaths", not including N6, were put into the Headhunter program, this is not enough to make up the numbers. At the program's height there were 6 two-man teams, 12 Spartans, with 17 others rotating into positions when one or more of a team was killed. That is 29 Spartan IIIs needed, and clearly they can't all be Beta Spartans because the numbers don't add up. It is also obvious that Gamma Company cannot be included based on deployment time and age. This means that the others would have to be from from Alpha, and there we have clear evidence that Spartans were witheld from PROMETHEUS, which leaves room to say that Carter, Emile and Jun were also saved.

Read first reply. The book indicates that Kurt was given details on missions POST op. So him keeping Spartan's from participating is extremely unlikely, not to mention in violation of command.

I'm beginning to think you didn't even read his transmission. He explains that he knows he is in violation but that they are being deployed, just not the way Ackerson planned.

Posted by: switch 104 sv
Ghost of Onyx is 100% canon, but the perspective from which the book is written leaves room to allow for the survival of more Spartan IIIs than the novel actually implies. Basically, GoO is right to say that all the Spartan IIIs of Alpha and Beta died But obviously, in actual fact, that is not the case, as I have explained above. Reach, and by extension Evolutions, does not break canon by including the survival of Spartan IIIs from Alpha and Beta Companies.

Your above explanations are invalid by that book you declare 100% cannon. Seeing as Kurt was basically a protagonist and your explanation involves him heavily (yet the book does not echo that involvement) I'm not sure where you want to go with that.

Again, he knew that by redirecting Spartas he was technically in violation but he did it ay way to give them a better chance. As for the perspective argument, I mean that Beta's destruction is seen from Tom's perspective. His first person view can only show so much, whatever the character knows. Like I said, if those nine "dead" Spartans were not launched, he would have no way to know and therefore would not be included in that chapter.

Posted by: switch 104 sv
Now factor in the possibility that some of the non-recruited numbers were used for similar programs/teams as well as "1.08% total strength" (3 Spartans) of Beta that was "absorbed" (read: saved) and the 2 Spatans from Beta sent on "long term reconnaissance", 170 and 091, and there are the potential numbers to fill all these ranks as well as that of Echo, Gauntlet and the original, now deceased, members of Noble which Jun, Emile, Jorge and 6 replaced.

This program was about mass producing Spartans. Why syphon them off to other places when their original purpose was en-mass? Why would command be irritated with having "only about 300" if they seemed to have enough left over to send to X,Y and Z secret programs?

And once again, Kurt did it seemingly without authorisation, orat least using loopholes, inorder to give his Spartans a fighting chance.

P.S. Sorry for any spelling mistakes, I'm not used to my girlfriends laptop.

EDIT: Butchered the quoting there but I'm not fixing it. Sorry.

[Edited on 04.12.2011 5:32 PM PDT]

  • 04.12.2011 5:26 PM PDT

"Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind." - Albert Einstien

Posted by: switch 104 sv
Kat was from Beta, not Alpha. After Alpha's massacre Kurt was told by his superiors that if they were given the opportunity to do a similar thing hey would, hence why he knew to watch out for Beta Company. As for how, GoO explains that Kut developed techniques on keeping track of his Spartans after deployment, the privelages of position/rank or something like that (not a direct quote, I don't have the book here).

Where? Alpha and Beta were only a small portion of the book. Nothing about this is mentioned within. At least not in my copy. I also understand that Kat was Beta. Still, point still stands that ONI did not brief Kurt before a mission began. He was nothing but a drill instructor. Once a company shipped out he ceased to be involved. Only reason Tom and Lucy came back was because they weren't fit for active duty.

Posted by: switch 104 sv
Also, the transmission is not in the book. I supplied a link to it for people to read. Ghosts of Onyx is not the sole canon source for the IIIs.

But it was the initial source and this link conflicts with the original telling of these events. Conflicting evidence is not good evidence. AKA - Poor retcon.


Posted by: switch 104 sv
I have edited my Noble 6 post, Kurt pulled him straight after taining finished, again stated in the transmission.

So wait, then where did all this experience come from? And how do you "survive Pegasi" if you didn't even go there? Not to mention your transmission is, again, conflicting with the source material for this part of the cannon. On top of that, its basically marketing.

Posted by: switch 104 sv
You misunderstand, I'm not suggestin that ONI plucked their pods up mid-flight, nor that thye picked them up on the surface of Pegasi. I'm suggesting that they were not sent. So nine nine Spartans got in their pods and and far as the rest of the group knew they launched, but those particular nine pods stayed on the ship. There would be no way fro the rest of them to know this until they landed because they were deployed in slipspace, hence why Tom checked everyone's status whe they hit dirt.

So how can nine not make it if they weren't even sent off? You think a commander would allow himself to leave pods behind? You think Tom wasn't monitoring every pod in its descent? He checked status when they hit the dirt because the landing knocked him and his armor senseless (he mentions blood in his mouth).

Posted by: switch 104 sv
I'm beginning to think you didn't even read his transmission. He explains that he knows he is in violation but that they are being deployed, just not the way Ackerson planned.

Transmission is a moot point. And yes I read it.

Posted by: switch 104 sv
Again, he knew that by redirecting Spartas he was technically in violation but he did it ay way to give them a better chance. As for the perspective argument, I mean that Beta's destruction is seen from Tom's perspective. His first person view can only show so much, whatever the character knows. Like I said, if those nine "dead" Spartans were not launched, he would have no way to know and therefore would not be included in that chapter.

It just makes me wonder how you could not know? I'm pretty sure each and every Spartan III in that company was tracking every other pod as they descended to the surface. If there was even one less then they would have noticed.

Posted by: switch 104 sv
And once again, Kurt did it seemingly without authorisation, orat least using loopholes, inorder to give his Spartans a fighting chance.

What strings can Kurt pull to get members of Alpha and Beta into some black ops team without Ackerson or other members of ONI knowing? He was nothing more than an expensive drill seargent. He had no power beyond his camp.

[Edited on 04.12.2011 5:46 PM PDT]

  • 04.12.2011 5:45 PM PDT

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Posted by: UL7IM4 G33K
Where? Alpha and Beta were only a small portion of the book. Nothing about this is mentioned within. At least not in my copy. I also understand that Kat was Beta. Still, point still stands that ONI did not brief Kurt before a mission began. He was nothing but a drill instructor. Once a company shipped out he ceased to be involved. Only reason Tom and Lucy came back was because they weren't fit for active duty.

Page 88 is where Ackerson and co tell Kurt they would send Beta on a similar mission to Alpha if the opportunity presented itself. Page 81 explains how Kurt, despite being a lowly "drill instructor", had his ways of tracking his deployed Spartans. He had "cultivated intelligence sources outside ONI, Section Three, and Beta-5. Being commandant of Camp Currahee had its privileges, and he learned how to use them."

You don't need to refer to your book as a separate entity to mine. There was no reissue, we have the same book with the same information.


Posted by: UL7IM4 G33K
But it was the initial source and this link conflicts with the original telling of these events. Conflicting evidence is not good evidence. AKA - Poor retcon.

You see conflict, I see addition. There are enough extra numbers given within the book to facilitate the so called "canon breaking" Spartans in Reach. I'm interested to know whether you consider the Headhunters to be canon. By your logic, they shouldn't exist because all the the Spartan IIIs in their respective company's died. Or are they an exception?


Posted by: UL7IM4 G33K
So wait, then where did all this experience come from? And how do you "survive Pegasi" if you didn't even go there? Not to mention your transmission is, again, conflicting with the source material for this part of the cannon. On top of that, its basically marketing.

Beta were deployed in 2544/2445. Reach takes place in 2552. That's at least 7 years of combat experience Noble 6 had. Read his/her performance report and you'll see that after being taken out of the main contingent he was used by ONI for black ops. Jorge's "survive Pegasi" remark was a sarcastic one, making note that all was not as it seemed with Beta Company's destruction. It is indeed marketing, but marketing is still a part of canon and cannot be ignored.

Posted by: UL7IM4 G33K
So how can nine not make it if they weren't even sent off? You think a commander would allow himself to leave pods behind? You think Tom wasn't monitoring every pod in its descent? He checked status when they hit the dirt because the landing knocked him and his armor senseless (he mentions blood in his mouth).

Because as I explained, that particular chapter was written from Tom's perspective. He landed, saw nine Spartans were unaccounted for and made the assumption they died. He would have no way to know if they were taken or not. Again, they were deployed in slipspace. It is entirely possible and likely that a HEV's scanning equipment could be rendered useless in slipspace due to it's complex nature. Alternatively, nine empty pods could have been launched to give the illusion that their Spartans were sent. It's not that far-fetched if you look at ONI's history with making Spartan's disappear: Kurt, Jorge, Black Team. What makes this scenario any less credible?

Posted by: UL7IM4 G33K
It just makes me wonder how you could not know? I'm pretty sure each and every Spartan III in that company was tracking every other pod as they descended to the surface. If there was even one less then they would have noticed.

See my previous answer.

Posted by: UL7IM4 G33K
What strings can Kurt pull to get members of Alpha and Beta into some black ops team without Ackerson or other members of ONI knowing? He was nothing more than an expensive drill seargent. He had no power beyond his camp.

Ghosts of Onyx and the transmission say otherwise, as per my first answer.

It seems that you are determined to make sure that the Spartan IIIs remain an error despite there being a plausible and viable explanation for it all. GoO doesn't directly say anything about withdrawn Spartans, but it also doesn't make it impossible. There were 315 candidates between Alpha and Beta that were unused to be split up between Drill Instructors, 29 Headhunters, three current Noble team members, 4 previous members, and presumably 12 others making up Echo and Gauntlet. More than enough. And that's without counting the theoretical extras I have provided already and the numerous others mention by Kurt. There is an answer if you look for it.

  • 04.13.2011 5:02 AM PDT


Posted by: UL7IM4 G33K
Posted by: switch 104 sv
Kat was from Beta, not Alpha. After Alpha's massacre Kurt was told by his superiors that if they were given the opportunity to do a similar thing hey would, hence why he knew to watch out for Beta Company. As for how, GoO explains that Kut developed techniques on keeping track of his Spartans after deployment, the privelages of position/rank or something like that (not a direct quote, I don't have the book here).

Where? Alpha and Beta were only a small portion of the book. Nothing about this is mentioned within. At least not in my copy. I also understand that Kat was Beta. Still, point still stands that ONI did not brief Kurt before a mission began. He was nothing but a drill instructor. Once a company shipped out he ceased to be involved. Only reason Tom and Lucy came back was because they weren't fit for active duty.

Posted by: switch 104 sv
Also, the transmission is not in the book. I supplied a link to it for people to read. Ghosts of Onyx is not the sole canon source for the IIIs.

But it was the initial source and this link conflicts with the original telling of these events. Conflicting evidence is not good evidence. AKA - Poor retcon.


Posted by: switch 104 sv
I have edited my Noble 6 post, Kurt pulled him straight after taining finished, again stated in the transmission.

So wait, then where did all this experience come from? And how do you "survive Pegasi" if you didn't even go there? Not to mention your transmission is, again, conflicting with the source material for this part of the cannon. On top of that, its basically marketing.

Posted by: switch 104 sv
You misunderstand, I'm not suggestin that ONI plucked their pods up mid-flight, nor that thye picked them up on the surface of Pegasi. I'm suggesting that they were not sent. So nine nine Spartans got in their pods and and far as the rest of the group knew they launched, but those particular nine pods stayed on the ship. There would be no way fro the rest of them to know this until they landed because they were deployed in slipspace, hence why Tom checked everyone's status whe they hit dirt.

So how can nine not make it if they weren't even sent off? You think a commander would allow himself to leave pods behind? You think Tom wasn't monitoring every pod in its descent? He checked status when they hit the dirt because the landing knocked him and his armor senseless (he mentions blood in his mouth).

Posted by: switch 104 sv
I'm beginning to think you didn't even read his transmission. He explains that he knows he is in violation but that they are being deployed, just not the way Ackerson planned.

Transmission is a moot point. And yes I read it.

Posted by: switch 104 sv
Again, he knew that by redirecting Spartas he was technically in violation but he did it ay way to give them a better chance. As for the perspective argument, I mean that Beta's destruction is seen from Tom's perspective. His first person view can only show so much, whatever the character knows. Like I said, if those nine "dead" Spartans were not launched, he would have no way to know and therefore would not be included in that chapter.

It just makes me wonder how you could not know? I'm pretty sure each and every Spartan III in that company was tracking every other pod as they descended to the surface. If there was even one less then they would have noticed.

Posted by: switch 104 sv
And once again, Kurt did it seemingly without authorisation, orat least using loopholes, inorder to give his Spartans a fighting chance.

What strings can Kurt pull to get members of Alpha and Beta into some black ops team without Ackerson or other members of ONI knowing? He was nothing more than an expensive drill seargent. He had no power beyond his camp.


Kurt was not just a drill sergeant, he was the one directly in charge of the SIII program, yes there are people over him in the chain of command, but he is the commander of the SIIIs.

The very nature of a retcon means that it will be conflicting with whatever the original material it is retconning, if you think that is a poor retcon because it conflicts with GoO, then all other retcons in anything must be poor as well.

Information released in marketing material is just as much as canon as the information in all the other media until it is contradicted by source higher than marketing. Like for instance stuff back when CE came out said Chief was the last of the Spartans, and until First Strike came along, that was completely true.

  • 04.13.2011 8:16 AM PDT

Indeed, as Coma said, Ackerson picked Kurt to be the director of the S3 program. In a sense, Kurt was to the spartan IIIs what Halsey was to the spartan IIs.

  • 04.13.2011 9:33 AM PDT


Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron
Indeed, as Coma said, Ackerson picked Kurt to be the director of the S3 program. In a sense, Kurt was to the spartan IIIs what Halsey was to the spartan IIs.


Exactly, that's why he had the authority to add the drug that Gamma Company got in addition to the other ones. The one that increased their aggression or endurance or whatever it was.

  • 04.13.2011 9:42 AM PDT


Posted by: OrderedComa

Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron
Indeed, as Coma said, Ackerson picked Kurt to be the director of the S3 program. In a sense, Kurt was to the spartan IIIs what Halsey was to the spartan IIs.


Exactly, that's why he had the authority to add the drug that Gamma Company got in addition to the other ones. The one that increased their aggression or endurance or whatever it was.


Made them able to fight with fatal injuries, suppressed shock I believe. Side effect was it could make them more violent/aggressive, which is why another was added. Point remains, a "Simple/over-glorified Drill Sergeant" wouldn't be able to add two 'illegal augmentations' to the program for Gamma.

  • 04.13.2011 10:11 AM PDT

"Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind." - Albert Einstien

Posted by: switch 104 sv
Page 88 is where Ackerson and co tell Kurt they would send Beta on a similar mission to Alpha if the opportunity presented itself. Page 81 explains how Kurt, despite being a lowly "drill instructor", had his ways of tracking his deployed Spartans. He had "cultivated intelligence sources outside ONI, Section Three, and Beta-5. Being commandant of Camp Currahee had its privileges, and he learned how to use them."

You don't need to refer to your book as a separate entity to mine. There was no reissue, we have the same book with the same information.

How does "we would send them on similar ops" translate to full briefing of which ops are similar? Kurt had no way of knowing which op would be another Prometheus. He could only assume all of them were. That is my point.


You see conflict, I see addition. There are enough extra numbers given within the book to facilitate the so called "canon breaking" Spartans in Reach. I'm interested to know whether you consider the Headhunters to be canon. By your logic, they shouldn't exist because all the the Spartan IIIs in their respective company's died. Or are they an exception?

Unfortunately it isn't that simple. And no I don't necessarily consider them in my arguments either mainly becuase I stopped reading lore after Ghosts of Onyx (the last canon considerate book). Even still the Headhunters were a rotation of Spartans which, from their purpose, seem to die off rather quickly. So it isn't a stretch to say that yes, they are dead too seeing as over time there would be no Spartan III's to replace them.


Beta were deployed in 2544/2445. Reach takes place in 2552. That's at least 7 years of combat experience Noble 6 had. Read his/her performance report and you'll see that after being taken out of the main contingent he was used by ONI for black ops. Jorge's "survive Pegasi" remark was a sarcastic one, making note that all was not as it seemed with Beta Company's destruction. It is indeed marketing, but marketing is still a part of canon and cannot be ignored.

It is the lowest form of canon. It can easily be ignored. Especially when conflicting with a higher level of canon, a novel.


Because as I explained, that particular chapter was written from Tom's perspective. He landed, saw nine Spartans were unaccounted for and made the assumption they died. He would have no way to know if they were taken or not. Again, they were deployed in slipspace. It is entirely possible and likely that a HEV's scanning equipment could be rendered useless in slipspace due to it's complex nature. Alternatively, nine empty pods could have been launched to give the illusion that their Spartans were sent. It's not that far-fetched if you look at ONI's history with making Spartan's disappear: Kurt, Jorge, Black Team. What makes this scenario any less credible?

The only assumption here is that Tom had no idea what was going on between launch and landing. I'm pretty sure that, with things like Halo 3: ODST and other book sources about drop-pod drops it is pretty obvious that you can track and even communicate with other pods during the drop.

Empty pods are also unlikely. Any commander would make sure each and every one of his mean were ready before launching on such a high-risk mission. Especially Spartans seeing as they are like family. You would have to be pretty oblivious to let several men just vanish from your sight during the initiation of a extreme risk mission.


Ghosts of Onyx and the transmission say otherwise, as per my first answer.

It seems that you are determined to make sure that the Spartan IIIs remain an error despite there being a plausible and viable explanation for it all. GoO doesn't directly say anything about withdrawn Spartans, but it also doesn't make it impossible. There were 315 candidates between Alpha and Beta that were unused to be split up between Drill Instructors, 29 Headhunters, three current Noble team members, 4 previous members, and presumably 12 others making up Echo and Gauntlet. More than enough. And that's without counting the theoretical extras I have provided already and the numerous others mention by Kurt. There is an answer if you look for it.

Yet you seem to be ignoring the fact that despite improved graduate rates there WERE washouts. The book specifically states this and if we continue with how the book reads it would seem that the washout rate was high enough to significantly decrease the number of Spartans to about 300 out of the original 450+. The book then continues to state Beta would have an improved percentage but a lower number of candidates as the ONI guys voice their disdain with again only having around 300 of them for their ops as opposed to the promised 1000.

Yet here we see ONI splashing Spartan III's all over the place like they are candy as if they had more than enough of them to go around. This is why I'm skeptical about the new canon. It doesn't fit well with old canon and completely overwrites certain portions of the story.

Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron
Indeed, as Coma said, Ackerson picked Kurt to be the director of the S3 program. In a sense, Kurt was to the spartan IIIs what Halsey was to the spartan IIs.

You think Directors have control of their units after deployment? Halsey certainly didn't. Keep in mind he was in control of the program, not the soldiers. Once out of training they are no longer his. He moves on to the next batch.

[Edited on 04.13.2011 11:03 AM PDT]

  • 04.13.2011 11:00 AM PDT

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Posted by: UL7IM4 G33K
How does "we would send them on similar ops" translate to full briefing of which ops are similar? Kurt had no way of knowing which op would be another Prometheus. He could only assume all of them were. That is my point.

Did you completely ignore the part where I explained that Kurt found out himself, backed up by a quote of his resources? Yes, he wasn't told what his Spartans were doing, but he knew anyway. He made it his business to know.


Unfortunately it isn't that simple. And no I don't necessarily consider them in my arguments either mainly becuase I stopped reading lore after Ghosts of Onyx (the last canon considerate book).

You can't pick and choose what you include in canon. Non reading the Headhunters story doesn't mean it isn't there. Ignorance is not evidence.

Even still the Headhunters were a rotation of Spartans which, from their purpose, seem to die off rather quickly. So it isn't a stretch to say that yes, they are dead too seeing as over time there would be no Spartan III's to replace them.
The Headhunters were around in 2552. I'm not going to go into the specifics of where I drew this conclusion so as to keep this post on topic. I'll post it later or PM you if you wish.


It is the lowest form of canon. It can easily be ignored. Especially when conflicting with a higher level of canon, a novel.

It doesn't conflict. That's my point. It doesn't have to be ignored.


The only assumption here is that Tom had no idea what was going on between launch and landing. I'm pretty sure that, with things like Halo 3: ODST and other book sources about drop-pod drops it is pretty obvious that you can track and even communicate with other pods during the drop.

We have yet to see how slipspace effects inter-pod communication.

Empty pods are also unlikely. Any commander would make sure each and every one of his mean were ready before launching on such a high-risk mission. Especially Spartans seeing as they are like family. You would have to be pretty oblivious to let several men just vanish from your sight during the initiation of a extreme risk mission.
So it is entirely impossible that these nine Spartans got in their pods, Tom having seen this gets in his own, then they were taken back out and their empty pods launched?


Yet you seem to be ignoring the fact that despite improved graduate rates there WERE washouts. The book specifically states this and if we continue with how the book reads it would seem that the washout rate was high enough to significantly decrease the number of Spartans to about 300 out of the original 450+. The book then continues to state Beta would have an improved percentage but a lower number of candidates as the ONI guys voice their disdain with again only having around 300 of them for their ops as opposed to the promised 1000.

Yet here we see ONI splashing Spartan III's all over the place like they are candy as if they had more than enough of them to go around. This is why I'm skeptical about the new canon. It doesn't fit well with old canon and completely overwrites certain portions of the story.

The washouts were candidates who didn't finish training. They were not washouts from the augments or the drill instructors would have been cripples, which we know they weren't. The DIs were sour and harsh towards recruits because they were never given the chance. I'm not saying all of the washouts from each company were used for Spec Ops teams, just stating that there are sufficient numbers there to fill the teams and the DIs positions.


You think Directors have control of their units after deployment? Halsey certainly didn't. Keep in mind he was in control of the program, not the soldiers. Once out of training they are no longer his. He moves on to the next batch.

The book states that he has contacts outside the program. It isn't impossible that he could have organised the Spartans to be removed from there Companys. It doesn't have to be Kurt directly, but he was certainly moving the pieces.

It seems that you are not going to change your mind despite the fact that explanations are there. I have given my evidence and you can do with it what you will. I won't be taken further part in this discussion.

On a different note, you should give Evolutions another chance. It doesn't damage canon and there are some very good stories in there. Your missing out if you don't.

  • 04.13.2011 11:28 AM PDT

"Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind." - Albert Einstien

Posted by: switch 104 sv
Did you completely ignore the part where I explained that Kurt found out himself, backed up by a quote of his resources? Yes, he wasn't told what his Spartans were doing, but he knew anyway. He made it his business to know.

I won't consider something that is a lower form of canon than the novel just because you want me to. Kurt didn't question his superiors nor did he go behind their backs. In fact, he asked for permission to use the modifications on his select group Spartans to give them enhanced aggression if I remember correctly.


You can't pick and choose what you include in canon. Non reading the Headhunters story doesn't mean it isn't there. Ignorance is not evidence.

Did I say I ignored it? No. I said because I haven't read it I don't include it in my arguments. Doing so would be talking about something I know nothing about beyond wiki articles. SO I'm omitting it. Is that tolerable?


The Headhunters were around in 2552. I'm not going to go into the specifics of where I drew this conclusion so as to keep this post on topic. I'll post it later or PM you if you wish.

Not particularly interested but if you take the time I will read it.


It doesn't conflict. That's my point. It doesn't have to be ignored.

It is stating something that the book makes obviously not the case. It says he knows about the missions his Spartans are going on, yet in the book this isn't true. Even with his sneaky little tracking mechanism that would in no way tell him about what his Spartans were doing. What surprises me is that you really thinkg Kurt would have any form of connections in ONI at all, seeing as even Halsey had a hard time tracking her own Spartans and Cortana was working with her.


We have yet to see how slipspace effects inter-pod communication.

So then lets agree to disagree. Assumptions are nothing but. Still, evidence leans towards the unlikelyhood of a lack of communication. I have yet to see Slipspace hurt comm chatter on ships.


So it is entirely impossible that these nine Spartans got in their pods, Tom having seen this gets in his own, then they were taken back out and their empty pods launched?

Why go to all the trouble for nine dispensable soldiers? What's the logic? Hell the ship could have been destroyed in orbit for all they knew during the mission and their whole secret plan would have been in shambles.


The washouts were candidates who didn't finish training. They were not washouts from the augments or the drill instructors would have been cripples, which we know they weren't. The DIs were sour and harsh towards recruits because they were never given the chance. I'm not saying all of the washouts from each company were used for Spec Ops teams, just stating that there are sufficient numbers there to fill the teams and the DIs positions.

No, they were GENETIC washouts, as in didn't complete the augmentation process. That is what the book is talking about specifically within context. Go ahead and read the portion about the Beta Company during the post-op report on Prometheus. The augmentation process has a washout percentage.


On a different note, you should give Evolutions another chance. It doesn't damage canon and there are some very good stories in there. Your missing out if you don't.

I said I stopped, not that I wasn't interested in reading. Tried to read Contact Harvest but I cannot tolerate buggers or the cannon breaking occurrences therein.

  • 04.13.2011 11:51 AM PDT

From what I've read (On halopedia) and from what I remember, there were NO washouts or Causalities from the S3 augmentations (Washouts are anybody who would have died, been wounded, or unable to do it.)

418 candidates gathered at Camp Currahee, Onyx. The vetting process to select 300 for augmentation was ongoing in 2541.

That line, taken in context with training, means they were not washed out due to genetics. If they were unable to receive them they wouldn't have even been taken to Onyx in the first place, that's why there wasn't 1000 beta company Spartans.

It means, those who didn't receive augmentations did so because they did not complete the training.

The advances in technology between the SPARTAN-II and SPARTAN-III program allowed the casualty rate of the latter to drop to 0%, compared to 56% for the SPARTAN-IIs.

Where my line about no washouts come from.

  • 04.13.2011 12:17 PM PDT

Posted by: UL7IM4 G33K
It is the lowest form of canon. It can easily be ignored. Especially when conflicting with a higher level of canon, a novel.


It is the lowest source of canon, yes, but it does not conflict with GoO in the slightest, and even if it did, it would still take precedence over any conflicts in GoO because it is part of the information released for Reach. New information outranks old, not matter what its source. Now, if some new book or game, or anything else higher than marketing comes along and contradicts the marketing information for Reach, then the information in conflict would no longer be canon. But until then it is just as much a valid source of information as any other Halo media.

The only assumption here is that Tom had no idea what was going on between launch and landing. I'm pretty sure that, with things like Halo 3: ODST and other book sources about drop-pod drops it is pretty obvious that you can track and even communicate with other pods during the drop.

Empty pods are also unlikely. Any commander would make sure each and every one of his mean were ready before launching on such a high-risk mission. Especially Spartans seeing as they are like family. You would have to be pretty oblivious to let several men just vanish from your sight during the initiation of a extreme risk mission.


The pods the Spartan IIIs used at Pegasi Delta. They were a completely different type of pods which we know very little about except that they are stealth pods and can go through Slipspace safely. We know next to nothing about them, we don't know how they operate or anything. I see no problem with ONI having possibly commandeered them, if they can kidnap a bunch of kids and make it look like they never disappeared they can "kidnap" Spartans without anyone being any the wiser.

Hell they already did it with Kurt himself. And as far as I remember it's not stated that Tom was the leader of the operation either, you can correct me if I'm wrong of course, but I don't believe Tom was the leader of Operation: TORPEDO.

Unfortunately it isn't that simple. And no I don't necessarily consider them in my arguments either mainly becuase I stopped reading lore after Ghosts of Onyx (the last canon considerate book). Even still the Headhunters were a rotation of Spartans which, from their purpose, seem to die off rather quickly. So it isn't a stretch to say that yes, they are dead too seeing as over time there would be no Spartan III's to replace them.

Have you even read the other books? How do you know they inconsiderate of canon if you haven't even read them? All of the books after GoO are just as good, if not better, than any of the four earlier ones, by not reading them you are missing out on important pieces of the Haloverse and your knowledge of the series becomes stunted.

We don't know how everything fits together because we're not seeing the big picture, none of us on these forums has seen the Halo Story Bible so we have no idea what it contains or how it connects things that seem unrelated or seem to defy previous canon.

You think Directors have control of their units after deployment? Halsey certainly didn't. Keep in mind he was in control of the program, not the soldiers. Once out of training they are no longer his. He moves on to the next batch.

As Switch has stated, Kurt had other connections he used to keep up on what his Spartans were doing (much like Halsey did). And he has a lot more authority and knowledge as director of the program than you give him credit for. You talked as if he was only a drill instructor in charge of only training the IIIs and nothing else.

  • 04.13.2011 12:36 PM PDT

Concerning Tom, he was leader of one of the squads in the operation, not the entire thing. If memory = correct, then he simply was seeing how many got to the ground.

  • 04.13.2011 12:45 PM PDT

You know you play Halo too much when you hock a lugie in you girlfriends face and scream "BOOM HEADSHOT!" ;)

I say leave Reach out of the equation. While I do agree that the game cannon overrides the book cannon, we shouldn't try to change the story or make pieces fit that don't. Bungie wanted to make a more interesting and tragically heroic story than that of TFoR and Onyx.

  • 04.13.2011 12:58 PM PDT

"Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind." - Albert Einstien

Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron
That line, taken in context with training, means they were not washed out due to genetics. If they were unable to receive them they wouldn't have even been taken to Onyx in the first place, that's why there wasn't 1000 beta company Spartans.

It means, those who didn't receive augmentations did so because they did not complete the training.

The advances in technology between the SPARTAN-II and SPARTAN-III program allowed the casualty rate of the latter to drop to 0%, compared to 56% for the SPARTAN-IIs.

Where my line about no washouts come from.

Will have to wait till I get back home but I'll quote the section in the novel that refers to it. Perhaps I misread but I distinctly remember it being mentioned during the possibility of widening the genetic limitations for the next batch.

Posted by: OrderedComa
It is the lowest source of canon, yes, but it does not conflict with GoO in the slightest, and even if it did, it would still take precedence over any conflicts in GoO because it is part of the information released for Reach. New information outranks old, not matter what its source. Now, if some new book or game, or anything else higher than marketing comes along and contradicts the marketing information for Reach, then the information in conflict would no longer be canon. But until then it is just as much a valid source of information as any other Halo media.

That's the point, it conflicts because the new canon is inconsiderate of the old canon. This is exactly what this thread is about. If what you say is true then why even have this thread?


The pods the Spartan IIIs used at Pegasi Delta. They were a completely different type of pods which we know very little about except that they are stealth pods and can go through Slipspace safely. We know next to nothing about them, we don't know how they operate or anything. I see no problem with ONI having possibly commandeered them, if they can kidnap a bunch of kids and make it look like they never disappeared they can "kidnap" Spartans without anyone being any the wiser.

Hell they already did it with Kurt himself. And as far as I remember it's not stated that Tom was the leader of the operation either, you can correct me if I'm wrong of course, but I don't believe Tom was the leader of Operation: TORPEDO.

First off, the kids were kidnap with YEARS of planning and observation from non-hostile locations. Kurt was also taken from the AFTERMATH of an accident, again non-hostile situation fabricated by ONI.

Torpedo was not some ONI ruse to steal Spartan III's. It was a serious mission in an extremely dangerous location with high risk of failure. Its easy to say that's when they took them but there was no gaurantee that the ONI corvette attending the Spartans would even survive. Tom even mentions that he's thankful for the fact the ship is still there seeing as it is his and his fellow spartans only way back.


Have you even read the other books? How do you know they inconsiderate of canon if you haven't even read them?

Contact Harvest proved to me that they don't care about canon. Halfway through that book and I stopped caring. Events were misplaced and made insignificant by that book.


All of the books after GoO are just as good, if not better, than any of the four earlier ones, by not reading them you are missing out on important pieces of the Haloverse and your knowledge of the series becomes stunted.

You make it sound as if I refuse to read them. I merely stopped investing time into them because my past time was made irrelevant with the re-publishing of retconned books.


We don't know how everything fits together because we're not seeing the big picture, none of us on these forums has seen the Halo Story Bible so we have no idea what it contains or how it connects things that seem unrelated or seem to defy previous canon.

Cop out. Again this thread is about discussing what we know, not avoiding the discussion because we "don't know the big picture".


As Switch has stated, Kurt had other connections he used to keep up on what his Spartans were doing (much like Halsey did). And he has a lot more authority and knowledge as director of the program than you give him credit for. You talked as if he was only a drill instructor in charge of only training the IIIs and nothing else.

The book has him doing nothing else. He trains them, commands them on base and then hears about them afterwards. He has no direct involvement with them once they've left Onyx.

  • 04.13.2011 3:44 PM PDT


Posted by: UL7IM4 G33K

Have you even read the other books? How do you know they inconsiderate of canon if you haven't even read them?

Contact Harvest proved to me that they don't care about canon. Halfway through that book and I stopped caring. Events were misplaced and made insignificant by that book.


Um... what? May I ask what events were misplaced and made insignificant? Because when I read it I didn't come across anything like that.

Likewise, how are these other books "not lining up with previous canon".

  • 04.13.2011 3:58 PM PDT
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Deva Path


Posted by: DecepticonCobra

We are all going to get banned aren't we?


Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron

Posted by: UL7IM4 G33K

Have you even read the other books? How do you know they inconsiderate of canon if you haven't even read them?

Contact Harvest proved to me that they don't care about canon. Halfway through that book and I stopped caring. Events were misplaced and made insignificant by that book.


Um... what? May I ask what events were misplaced and made insignificant? Because when I read it I didn't come across anything like that.

Likewise, how are these other books "not lining up with previous canon".


I find that interesting seeing how Contact Harvest was written by joseph staten, a bungie employee.

So if "Games > Books" what does it mean if the book is written by the same person that made the games? isn't that the same direct source that the games provide?

  • 04.13.2011 4:03 PM PDT

"Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind." - Albert Einstien

First Strike - First encounter with Brutes

Contact Harvest - Brutes apparently encountered beforehand, same with Elites.

Many of the recent books have neglected the old book's order of events.

[Edited on 04.13.2011 5:16 PM PDT]

  • 04.13.2011 5:16 PM PDT
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Posted by: DecepticonCobra

We are all going to get banned aren't we?


Posted by: UL7IM4 G33K
First Strike - First encounter with Brutes

Contact Harvest - Brutes apparently encountered beforehand, same with Elites.

Many of the recent books have neglected the old book's order of events.


The explanation for the brutes was after that engagement they were removed from the from lines and put on guard duty.

So Higher personnel could still have knowledge of the brutes while a new recruit would see them as a new enemy.

[Edited on 04.13.2011 5:31 PM PDT]

  • 04.13.2011 5:30 PM PDT

Signatures are for squares.

Posted by: OrderedComa


It is the lowest source of canon, yes, but it does not conflict with GoO in the slightest, and even if it did, it would still take precedence over any conflicts in GoO because it is part of the information released for Reach. New information outranks old, not matter what its source. Now, if some new book or game, or anything else higher than marketing comes along and contradicts the marketing information for Reach, then the information in conflict would no longer be canon. But until then it is just as much a valid source of information as any other Halo media.


Let me step in right quick.

No.

Old Canon still takes precedence over new canon, if the new canon is a lower tier than the original canon.

If the description for a Halo Board game said that there was 50 Spartan II's that were in active duty, we wouldn't regard it as canon, because the books directly state otherwise.

You may be right when you say Marketing is canon, but it is still the absolute lowest form, and EVERYTHING(new and old) will outrank it.

  • 04.13.2011 5:32 PM PDT

Signatures are for squares.

Posted by: UL7IM4 G33K
First Strike - First encounter with Brutes

Contact Harvest - Brutes apparently encountered beforehand, same with Elites.

Many of the recent books have neglected the old book's order of events.


The re-written First Strike omits the lines about it being first contact with Brutes.

Much like how all sources of canon state Humanity encountered Elites, Engineers, and Hunters before 2552, despite fall of Reach listing that year as first encounters for all those species.

  • 04.13.2011 5:33 PM PDT

@accordingto343

Your one stop shop for all of 343's fabulous errors and ridiculous notions in the Halo lore.

Posted by: privet caboose
Posted by: UL7IM4 G33K
First Strike - First encounter with Brutes

Contact Harvest - Brutes apparently encountered beforehand, same with Elites.

Many of the recent books have neglected the old book's order of events.


The re-written First Strike omits the lines about it being first contact with Brutes.

Much like how all sources of canon state Humanity encountered Elites, Engineers, and Hunters before 2552, despite fall of Reach listing that year as first encounters for all those species.

Which is pretty far-fetched to be honest.

  • 04.13.2011 5:34 PM PDT

"Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind." - Albert Einstien

Posted by: privet caboose
The re-written First Strike omits the lines about it being first contact with Brutes.

Much like how all sources of canon state Humanity encountered Elites, Engineers, and Hunters before 2552, despite fall of Reach listing that year as first encounters for all those species.

The first Elite encounter was upon Sigma Octaneas if I remember correctly. Was that also in 2552? Master Cheif didn't fight an Elite head on until Reach in the original novel (he did so in zero-g).

Still, it bugs me that canon must be rewritten when it could easily have been avoided. If Brutes were documented before First Strike I doubt a Spartan would have died. The whole reason that fight ended up like it did was because they weren't sure how to handle them.

  • 04.13.2011 5:52 PM PDT

Signatures are for squares.

Posted by: UL7IM4 G33K
Posted by: privet caboose
The re-written First Strike omits the lines about it being first contact with Brutes.

Much like how all sources of canon state Humanity encountered Elites, Engineers, and Hunters before 2552, despite fall of Reach listing that year as first encounters for all those species.

The first Elite encounter was upon Sigma Octaneas if I remember correctly. Was that also in 2552? Master Cheif didn't fight an Elite head on until Reach in the original novel (he did so in zero-g).

Still, it bugs me that canon must be rewritten when it could easily have been avoided. If Brutes were documented before First Strike I doubt a Spartan would have died. The whole reason that fight ended up like it did was because they weren't sure how to handle them.


Fall of Reach says the first Hunters were encountered on Sigma Octanus. And the first Elites weren't encountered until Harvest.

Yet, every single other piece of canon after Ghosts of Oynx, states that Elites and all other species were encountered MUCH earlier, which makes sense. I mean, why would the Covenant keep their two strongest species out of the war for 25+ years?

  • 04.13.2011 6:45 PM PDT

"Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind." - Albert Einstien

Posted by: privet caboose
I mean, why would the Covenant keep their two strongest species out of the war for 25+ years?

Would you send Marines to kill cockroaches? Because that's essentially what the Covenant's opinion of us was.

  • 04.13.2011 6:53 PM PDT