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  • Subject: Unexplainable errors in the Halo canon. (Spoilers)
Subject: Unexplainable errors in the Halo canon. (Spoilers)

Signatures are for squares.

Posted by: UL7IM4 G33K
Posted by: privet caboose
I mean, why would the Covenant keep their two strongest species out of the war for 25+ years?

Would you send Marines to kill cockroaches? Because that's essentially what the Covenant's opinion of us was.


Although they were beating us, it wasn't THAT badly. We still put a massive dent in the Covenant forces. The human-Covenant war was the largest loss of Covenant life in any war.

  • 04.13.2011 7:18 PM PDT

Ignore my gamertag. It's actually Dragonzzilla.

77th Page!

  • 04.13.2011 7:37 PM PDT

"Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind." - Albert Einstien

Posted by: privet caboose
Although they were beating us, it wasn't THAT badly. We still put a massive dent in the Covenant forces. The human-Covenant war was the largest loss of Covenant life in any war.

Elites were still be utilized in combat, just mostly as ship masters and special ops (specifically retrieval of Forerunner technology). I will say that "first recorded" is probably a better term. Still, the main reason why these inconsistencies matter is that an earlier appearance of these races mean information would have been made available to Spartan II's earlier and possibly saved more Spartan lives (which I am sure that the UNSC and ONI would have been extremely keen on doing based on their investment in the program).

[Edited on 04.13.2011 10:22 PM PDT]

  • 04.13.2011 10:21 PM PDT
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Posted by: DecepticonCobra

We are all going to get banned aren't we?


Posted by: privet caboose
Posted by: UL7IM4 G33K
Posted by: privet caboose
I mean, why would the Covenant keep their two strongest species out of the war for 25+ years?

Would you send Marines to kill cockroaches? Because that's essentially what the Covenant's opinion of us was.


Although they were beating us, it wasn't THAT badly. We still put a massive dent in the Covenant forces. The human-Covenant war was the largest loss of Covenant life in any war.


The thing with the covenant was their ship tech, sure we won nearly every ground engagement. But they would just run back to the ships and bomb the planet from orbit, the covenant could wait us out but we couldn't out wait them.

  • 04.14.2011 11:56 AM PDT

"Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind." - Albert Einstien

This is where my cockroach analogy works well. Sure the exterminator could come in day after day and spray pesticides and get nowhere, but eventually he'll just wrap up the house and gas bomb the entire thing. It is similar to how the Covenant dealt with us. Send in a ton of Jackals and Grunts to kill us off. If it didn't work then oh well the planet is infested too heavily to save so just glass it into oblivion.

[Edited on 04.14.2011 12:42 PM PDT]

  • 04.14.2011 12:42 PM PDT

I gaze upon the stars and see the majesty that is the universe.


EGO mos bulla astrum.


Posted by: xXFatal v1

Posted by: Vegerot
This is a small problem I have, and I don't know that answer to it!
How the hell is Sprint canon?!
You mean how is it that you need an armor ability to sprint? I don't think any of the armor abilities are canon, they're just gameplay elements.

Actually Bungie admitted that anything in Reach technologically could be wrong because its Reach and prototypes could always be used and lost.

  • 04.15.2011 9:52 PM PDT

Bacon for all !!!!!!!!!!!111111111111

Posted by: ArtooFeva

Posted by: xXFatal v1

Posted by: Vegerot
This is a small problem I have, and I don't know that answer to it!
How the hell is Sprint canon?!
You mean how is it that you need an armor ability to sprint? I don't think any of the armor abilities are canon, they're just gameplay elements.

S3's were a secret program and secret programs can get secret or unavailable technoligy
Actually Bungie admitted that anything in Reach technologically could be wrong because its Reach and prototypes could always be used and lost.

Secret programs can get secret tech. the S3's were secret

[Edited on 04.16.2011 11:09 AM PDT]

  • 04.16.2011 11:08 AM PDT

Posted by: UL7IM4 G33K
That's the point, it conflicts because the new canon is inconsiderate of the old canon. This is exactly what this thread is about. If what you say is true then why even have this thread?


I take it you think there should never ever be retcons then?
The very nature of a retcon means that it will more often than not conflict with the information it is retconning.

I see nothing conflicting with the new information we've received with Reach concerning the SIII program.

First off, the kids were kidnap with YEARS of planning and observation from non-hostile locations. Kurt was also taken from the AFTERMATH of an accident, again non-hostile situation fabricated by ONI.

Torpedo was not some ONI ruse to steal Spartan III's. It was a serious mission in an extremely dangerous location with high risk of failure. Its easy to say that's when they took them but there was no gaurantee that the ONI corvette attending the Spartans would even survive. Tom even mentions that he's thankful for the fact the ship is still there seeing as it is his and his fellow spartans only way back.


This has nothing to do with the issue, but the incident with Kurt was not an accident, ONI rigged the whole thing so they could kidnap him to command and train the SIIIs.

I did not say TORPEDO was something rigged to kidnap Spartans. I did not even imply that, I merely said that it would not be a stretch for ONI to have taken at most 9 of them for their own, possibly nefarious, purposes. And also, the extraction craft and the one that sent Beta Company there were not the same ship, the one that Tom and Lucy left on was a Prowler, and the ship that sent Beta Company there was some sort of ship of the line like a Friagate or something larger. The ship that sent them there didn't even go to Pegasi Delta, it merely launched them in those Slipspace pods.

Contact Harvest proved to me that they don't care about canon. Halfway through that book and I stopped caring. Events were misplaced and made insignificant by that book.

Um...O_o what? There was nothing at all wrong with Contact Harvest from a canon standpoint, so what the heck are you talking about? O_o

You make it sound as if I refuse to read them. I merely stopped investing time into them because my past time was made irrelevant with the re-publishing of retconned books.

I only made it sound that way because you implied that you did not read anything after Contact Harvest.

Cop out. Again this thread is about discussing what we know, not avoiding the discussion because we "don't know the big picture".

I'm not against discussing what we don't know the answer to and coming up with theories to explain it. However, what I am against is people claiming any part of the story is "incorrect" because it doesn't fit, that is why I threw the "we don't know" bit out there.

  • 04.16.2011 3:19 PM PDT

"Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind." - Albert Einstien

Posted by: OrderedComa
I take it you think there should never ever be retcons then?
The very nature of a retcon means that it will more often than not conflict with the information it is retconning.

Yes, if it can be helped (and in Reach's case and many of the novels it most certainly could have been). THe only retcon I can agree to is one that mends a broken part of existing cannon. A heavy alteration to accomodate new material is NOT a good retcon. Reach practically destroyed the reason for Halo CE even happening. The entire circumstance isn't even there.

Posted by: OrderedComa
I see nothing conflicting with the new information we've received with Reach concerning the SIII program.

The fact that disposable soldiers were being used for in disposable missions? The fact that they were using armor as advanced as MC's and the Spartan II's (which was originaly designed for Spartan II's, not III's seeing as it was Halsey's armor not Ackerson's). Not to mention the book clearly states there were no survivors. The nature of the mission from which you saying these spartans were black bagged is incredibly risky and lacks the conditions needed for such an operation.

Ghosts of Onyx pg.83
"Lets move on to the review of Alpha and Operation PROMETHEUS," the vice Admiral said, and her face darkened.
Colonel Ackerson cleared his throat. "Operation PROMETHEUS occured on the Covenant manufacturing site designated K7-49."
A holographic asteroid materialized drifting over the table, a rock with molten cracks that made a spiderweb pattern over its surface.
"K7-49 was discovered when the prowler Razor's Edge managed to attach a telemetry probe on an enemy frigate during the Battle of New Harmony," Akcerson said. "They followed the craft through Slipspace, the first and only time this technology had actually worked, I might add, and they discovered this rock seventeen light-years past the UNSC outer boundary."


Does that sound like the optimum kind of place to "spirit away" some Spartans? As far as possible from ONI and UNSC control in a place owned by your enemy? Operation TORPEDO was similar.

Not to mention, the strings Kurt pulled were only pulled ONCE, and that was for Tom and Lucy. He didn't keep them from any missions. He stole Tom from Ackerson (who wanted him for private operations which you could say is Noble but honestly it doesn't fit right. Why take Tom if he already had others before the operation?) and Lucy from psych evaluation. And the only string he was able to pull was by appealing to Vice Admiral Parangosky with the argument "Spartans to train Spartans". This supports my idea of connections not being what you guys are making them out to be.


This has nothing to do with the issue, but the incident with Kurt was not an accident, ONI rigged the whole thing so they could kidnap him to command and train the SIIIs.

I did not say TORPEDO was something rigged to kidnap Spartans. I did not even imply that, I merely said that it would not be a stretch for ONI to have taken at most 9 of them for their own, possibly nefarious, purposes. And also, the extraction craft and the one that sent Beta Company there were not the same ship, the one that Tom and Lucy left on was a Prowler, and the ship that sent Beta Company there was some sort of ship of the line like a Friagate or something larger. The ship that sent them there didn't even go to Pegasi Delta, it merely launched them in those Slipspace pods.

Contradicts with Ackerson's actions post PROMETHEUS. The slipspace pods were ODST pods. Newer ones. They weren't unique.

Ghosts of Onyx p.105
"Yes, sir," Kurt said. "Like a slipspace science probe. I've seen them launched from Station Achimedes. Or the new ODST drop pod that can be fired from a ship still in Slipspace."
Right from Kurt's own mouth.

Not to mention, another quote from Tom indicates that the max number of Spartan candidates was 300 so the "extra spartans" theory makes little sense.

Ghosts of Onyx p.89

"There were 418 candidates, and only three hundred slots. Not all of them could be Spartans."



Um...O_o what? There was nothing at all wrong with Contact Harvest from a canon standpoint, so what the heck are you talking about? O_o

Brutes. Direct conflict with First Strike. This confliction causes a Spartan's death to make no sense. Not to mention I hate buggers but that is my personal preference.

I only made it sound that way because you implied that you did not read anything after Contact Harvest.
I haven't because I have yet to finish it. Unfortunately the book offers little motivation to do so.

I'm not against discussing what we don't know the answer to and coming up with theories to explain it. However, what I am against is people claiming any part of the story is "incorrect" because it doesn't fit, that is why I threw the "we don't know" bit out there.
The same word could be written 50000000000000000 times in a row in that book. But seeing as it is nothing but a figment to us it doesn't count as evidence or proof for any argument. It isn't something we can reference.

  • 04.16.2011 4:03 PM PDT


Posted by: UL7IM4 G33K
This is where my cockroach analogy works well. Sure the exterminator could come in day after day and spray pesticides and get nowhere, but eventually he'll just wrap up the house and gas bomb the entire thing. It is similar to how the Covenant dealt with us. Send in a ton of Jackals and Grunts to kill us off. If it didn't work then oh well the planet is infested too heavily to save so just glass it into oblivion.


If they held the Elites back, then why would they suddenly start fielding them everywhere after Reach? It doesn't sense, they would either have been kept out of the ground combat for the whole war, or they would have been taking part the whole time, suddenly fielding them everywhere for no reason is very weak story telling.

  • 04.16.2011 4:10 PM PDT

"Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind." - Albert Einstien

Posted by: OrderedComa
If they held the Elites back, then why would they suddenly start fielding them everywhere after Reach? It doesn't sense, they would either have been kept out of the ground combat for the whole war, or they would have been taking part the whole time, suddenly fielding them everywhere for no reason is very weak story telling.

They fielded them on planets with Forerunner tech and whenever they had to deal with the Spartans. It took a while for the Prophets to admit that they needed their most prized military units to kill what they felt was nothing more than vermin.

  • 04.16.2011 4:30 PM PDT

Error: Lack of Orbital MAC's.

Proof: Reach had a number of Orbital MAC's that were used in the battle of Reach. They were present on August 30th, so they should have been present during the mission "Long Night of Solace" in Halo: Reach. Had they been present, they Jorge wouldn't have died. Where were they?

Source: Fall of Reach, First Strike, Halo: Reach

It clearly states in the book that all Orbital MAC's were called over to the space battle. Long Night of Solace could have easily occurred on the other side of the planet.

  • 04.20.2011 7:17 AM PDT
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Posted by: DecepticonCobra

We are all going to get banned aren't we?


Posted by: aidmania
Error: Lack of Orbital MAC's.

Proof: Reach had a number of Orbital MAC's that were used in the battle of Reach. They were present on August 30th, so they should have been present during the mission "Long Night of Solace" in Halo: Reach. Had they been present, they Jorge wouldn't have died. Where were they?

Source: Fall of Reach, First Strike, Halo: Reach

It clearly states in the book that all Orbital MAC's were called over to the space battle. Long Night of Solace could have easily occurred on the other side of the planet.


Save for the Fact you go to both sides on the planet and see nothing. not to mention the covenant jumped right above reach which didn't happen in the book

  • 04.20.2011 7:18 AM PDT

Posted by: grey101

Posted by: aidmania
Error: Lack of Orbital MAC's.

Proof: Reach had a number of Orbital MAC's that were used in the battle of Reach. They were present on August 30th, so they should have been present during the mission "Long Night of Solace" in Halo: Reach. Had they been present, they Jorge wouldn't have died. Where were they?

Source: Fall of Reach, First Strike, Halo: Reach

It clearly states in the book that all Orbital MAC's were called over to the space battle. Long Night of Solace could have easily occurred on the other side of the planet.


Save for the Fact you go to both sides on the planet and see nothing. not to mention the covenant jumped right above reach which didn't happen in the book

Only one ship was on that side though. The point is, the main space battle and this happened in different places.

  • 04.20.2011 7:33 AM PDT
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Deva Path


Posted by: DecepticonCobra

We are all going to get banned aren't we?


Posted by: aidmania
Posted by: grey101

Posted by: aidmania
Error: Lack of Orbital MAC's.

Proof: Reach had a number of Orbital MAC's that were used in the battle of Reach. They were present on August 30th, so they should have been present during the mission "Long Night of Solace" in Halo: Reach. Had they been present, they Jorge wouldn't have died. Where were they?

Source: Fall of Reach, First Strike, Halo: Reach

It clearly states in the book that all Orbital MAC's were called over to the space battle. Long Night of Solace could have easily occurred on the other side of the planet.


Save for the Fact you go to both sides on the planet and see nothing. not to mention the covenant jumped right above reach which didn't happen in the book

Only one ship was on that side though. The point is, the main space battle and this happened in different places.


Two ships were on that side. You start LNoS on the UNSC side of reach and the second part is on covie controlled space.

I've had this argument dozens of times and went back and played the mission. you clearly go to the other full side of the planet in the second half of the mission and there is nothing there. if you fly around you can see where the the line the divides the side that is burned and that isn't.

Not Fleet, No Macs

  • 04.20.2011 7:37 AM PDT

Posted by: grey101

Posted by: aidmania
Posted by: grey101

Posted by: aidmania
Error: Lack of Orbital MAC's.

Proof: Reach had a number of Orbital MAC's that were used in the battle of Reach. They were present on August 30th, so they should have been present during the mission "Long Night of Solace" in Halo: Reach. Had they been present, they Jorge wouldn't have died. Where were they?

Source: Fall of Reach, First Strike, Halo: Reach

It clearly states in the book that all Orbital MAC's were called over to the space battle. Long Night of Solace could have easily occurred on the other side of the planet.


Save for the Fact you go to both sides on the planet and see nothing. not to mention the covenant jumped right above reach which didn't happen in the book

Only one ship was on that side though. The point is, the main space battle and this happened in different places.


Two ships were on that side. You start LNoS on the UNSC side of reach and the second part is on covie controlled space.

I've had this argument dozens of times and went back and played the mission. you clearly go to the other full side of the planet in the second half of the mission and there is nothing there. if you fly around you can see where the the line the divides the side that is burned and that isn't.

Not Fleet, No Macs

Not necessarily, you could go to the East and west sides of the planet, and the battle could have been fought in the north or south.

  • 04.20.2011 7:45 AM PDT
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Posted by: DecepticonCobra

We are all going to get banned aren't we?


They weren't though I don;t really know the correct terms but the Macs were positioned in areas we should have seen them in the games. Atleast 1 Mac should have been visible, period.

And they weren't Over The Poles, because those were Gaps the covenant sent hundreds of dropships to.

  • 04.20.2011 7:48 AM PDT

Posted by: grey101

They weren't though I don;t really know the correct terms but the Macs were positioned in areas we should have seen them in the games. Atleast 1 Mac should have been visible, period.

And they weren't Over The Poles, because those were Gaps the covenant sent hundreds of dropships to.

Fair enough, you have won this debate and proved me wrong.

  • 04.20.2011 8:04 AM PDT
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This is exactly why I treat Reach as "fan-fiction". The story is just too terrible for me to accept.

  • 04.20.2011 2:24 PM PDT


Posted by: grey101

They weren't though I don;t really know the correct terms but the Macs were positioned in areas we should have seen them in the games. Atleast 1 Mac should have been visible, period.

And they weren't Over The Poles, because those were Gaps the covenant sent hundreds of dropships to.


Um, we actually don't know what part of the planet the MACs were over. We simply know they are all at the same point. Also, who is to say the Anchor Nine to LNOS(supercarrier) was that far away? What if they simply went 1/4 around the planet?

  • 04.20.2011 2:34 PM PDT

dont bielive the books someone made them up. just belive what they tell you in the game

  • 04.20.2011 3:59 PM PDT

Life's a game. How do you play?

In all due honesty, let's face it: story has never been the strong suite of Bungie. I remember when I beat the first game on legendary, I believed that I didn't. Even as the credits rolled I didn't. Ever since then, I've relied on the novels and other media, such as Legends and Ensemble's Wars to give me the background on the Haloverse. For crying out loud, the bogus story the guys at Roosterteeth came up with makes as much sense as half the stuff that goes on in Reach. But, we must also remember that fan fiction does not necessarily become canon. Therefore, whatever Bungie has come up with is the official version, no matter what anyone else says. Even when they contradict themselves. Whatever. I'll go play Bioshock when I need an FPS with a coherent story.

  • 04.20.2011 5:38 PM PDT

Posted by: UL7IM4 G33K
Yes, if it can be helped (and in Reach's case and many of the novels it most certainly could have been). THe only retcon I can agree to is one that mends a broken part of existing cannon. A heavy alteration to accomodate new material is NOT a good retcon. Reach practically destroyed the reason for Halo CE even happening. The entire circumstance isn't even there


I disagree, if you ask me the account of the battle in TFoR was very weak story telling and was in dire need of improvement.

The fact that disposable soldiers were being used for in disposable missions? The fact that they were using armor as advanced as MC's and the Spartan II's (which was originaly designed for Spartan II's, not III's seeing as it was Halsey's armor not Ackerson's). Not to mention the book clearly states there were no survivors. The nature of the mission from which you saying these spartans were black bagged is incredibly risky and lacks the conditions needed for such an operation.

Ghosts of Onyx pg.83


The mission in your page citing is not the mission to Pegasi-Delta, you are talking about Opperation PROMETHEUS which was the mission given to Alpha company, not Beta, which is what the 9 SIIIs were missing from and I said it would have been possible to abduct them. Also, if Ackerson was able to steal Halsey's research in order to even make the SIIIs to begin with, he'd be able to steal the research for Mjolner armor as well. And it doesn't matter who Mjolner was designed for, Spartan IIIs are exactly the same as the SIIs strength and skill wise.

Does that sound like the optimum kind of place to "spirit away" some Spartans? As far as possible from ONI and UNSC control in a place owned by your enemy? Operation TORPEDO was similar.

Not to mention, the strings Kurt pulled were only pulled ONCE, and that was for Tom and Lucy. He didn't keep them from any missions. He stole Tom from Ackerson (who wanted him for private operations which you could say is Noble but honestly it doesn't fit right. Why take Tom if he already had others before the operation?) and Lucy from psych evaluation. And the only string he was able to pull was by appealing to Vice Admiral Parangosky with the argument "Spartans to train Spartans". This supports my idea of connections not being what you guys are making them out to be.


I did not say that the 9 missing IIIs would be taken at Pegasi-delta I said that if they were taken it would have been while the ship was in Slipspace, or wherever it was, and Beta company were being launched.

Noble Team has nothing to do with Ackerson, why would I think he'd want Tom for them? Noble Team is all Kurt and Mendez's doing.

Contradicts with Ackerson's actions post PROMETHEUS. The slipspace pods were ODST pods. Newer ones. They weren't unique.

Even if they are ODST pods, they are still unique due to being able to transition in and out of Slipspace. And to me your evidence with your quote does not have much force to convince me, it sounds very much like the line is based on a certain context, and you don't have the context, so it's not that compelling.

Not to mention, another quote from Tom indicates that the max number of Spartan candidates was 300 so the "extra spartans" theory makes little sense.

And who is the line being said about? If it's Tom saying it then it can't be about Alpha, which is the one with a mention of extras and not having enough slots for them.

Brutes. Direct conflict with First Strike. This confliction causes a Spartan's death to make no sense. Not to mention I hate buggers but that is my personal preference.

IIRC, it doesn't make a mention of Brutes being a new species, it was worded more like Chief had never fought them. And they wouldn't have all that much documentation on the Brutes anyway as they did not take a particularly active part in the war until nearer the end.

The same word could be written 50000000000000000 times in a row in that book. But seeing as it is nothing but a figment to us it doesn't count as evidence or proof for any argument. It isn't something we can reference.

I am not quite sure what you are saying here.

  • 04.20.2011 8:24 PM PDT

"Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind." - Albert Einstien

Posted by: OrderedComa
I disagree, if you ask me the account of the battle in TFoR was very weak story telling and was in dire need of improvement.

Improvement is fine. Completely altering the entire encounter is a different story (no pun intended).

Posted by: OrderedComa
The mission in your page citing is not the mission to Pegasi-Delta, you are talking about Opperation PROMETHEUS which was the mission given to Alpha company, not Beta, which is what the 9 SIIIs were missing from and I said it would have been possible to abduct them. Also, if Ackerson was able to steal Halsey's research in order to even make the SIIIs to begin with, he'd be able to steal the research for Mjolner armor as well. And it doesn't matter who Mjolner was designed for, Spartan IIIs are exactly the same as the SIIs strength and skill wise.

Why does it matter if it was PROMETHEUS. We aren't just discussing Noble 6 here, but all of Noble team. Second you obviously didn't read the quote seeing as it clearly gives you an idea of how difficult it would be to black bag someone during a high risk operation. But I guess you think there is no limit or even logic to ONI's actions. They just black bag people left, right, front and center regardless of location or situation?

And no, he wouldn't steal the info for MJOLNIR, why? Cause he had no use for it in the Spartan III program. If he wanted the MJOLNIR armor he'd of used it on all the III's. And I don't recall him "stealing" the Spartan II research more so than taking the idea and executing it himself.

And no, Spartan II's are larger and stronger than Spartan III's specifically because the Spartan II's got two modifications the III's did not (muscle growth hormone and a spinal nerve growth implant). This is why Spartan II's, as displayed in Reach, are larger than III's. There is also record of Kelly launching a III into a tree in Ghosts of Onyx.

I did not say that the 9 missing IIIs would be taken at Pegasi-delta I said that if they were taken it would have been while the ship was in Slipspace, or wherever it was, and Beta company were being launched.
Yet that still doesn't make sense. If Ackerson wanted to black bag people, why reveal that Tom survived to Kurt at all? It doesn't make any sense. Hell why even try to recruit Tom? Hell why go to such great lengths to steal some Spartan III's when you could probably of snatched a couple II's and had a much higher chance of them surviving their missions? Wait, that already happened! Grey and Black were both that, yet apparently two Spartan II teams weren't enough for Spec Ops/Black Ops missions.

Posted by: OrderedComa
Noble Team has nothing to do with Ackerson, why would I think he'd want Tom for them? Noble Team is all Kurt and Mendez's doing.

Then where the hell did they get MJOLNIR? I thought you said that Ackerson stole MJOLNIR from Halsey yet if Ackerson had nothing to do with Noble then why do they have MJOLNIR?

Even if they are ODST pods, they are still unique due to being able to transition in and out of Slipspace. And to me your evidence with your quote does not have much force to convince me, it sounds very much like the line is based on a certain context, and you don't have the context, so it's not that compelling.
They were the new pod, AKA a mass produced tool used by all UNSC troops. New maybe, but unique? Not in the slightest. If you think my context is off then check yourself. I gave the page number. I looked through the book for a description of their pods but these were all that fit the bill.

And who is the line being said about? If it's Tom saying it then it can't be about Alpha, which is the one with a mention of extras and not having enough slots for them.
It can be assumed it was similar for Alpha. Beta started with 375 candidates and yet they were only going to allow 300 through to augmentation. I doubt that was something new seeing as the previous company had exactly 300 as well.

IIRC, it doesn't make a mention of Brutes being a new species, it was worded more like Chief had never fought them. And they wouldn't have all that much documentation on the Brutes anyway as they did not take a particularly active part in the war until nearer the end.
The original has an entire inner monologue about him not expecting them nor knowing how to handle them precisely because they were new to him. If they weren't then they would have SOME reference of how they fight based on any information gathered from Harvest (which basically means Johnson).

I am not quite sure what you are saying here.
I'm saying don't hold the lack of knowing something as an argument. If we cannot reference the material it has no bearing on what is being discussed.

  • 04.20.2011 9:08 PM PDT

Posted by: UL7IM4 G33K
Improvement is fine. Completely altering the entire encounter is a different story (no pun intended).


And other than extending the timeline a bit nothing is at all altered, all the events of the Battle of Reach can take place exactly as in TFoR with the exception of how the battle started and a bit of the end.

And though you might not see it that way, sometimes completely altering an entire encounter is[/b] an improvement.

Why does it matter if it was PROMETHEUS. We aren't just discussing Noble 6 here, but all of Noble team. Second you obviously didn't read the quote seeing as it clearly gives you an idea of how difficult it would be to black bag someone during a high risk operation. But I guess you think there is no limit or even logic to ONI's actions. They just black bag people left, right, front and center regardless of location or situation?

And no, he wouldn't steal the info for MJOLNIR, why? Cause he had no use for it in the Spartan III program. If he wanted the MJOLNIR armor he'd of used it on all the III's. And I don't recall him "stealing" the Spartan II research more so than taking the idea and executing it himself.

And no, Spartan II's are larger and stronger than Spartan III's specifically because the Spartan II's got two modifications the III's did not (muscle growth hormone and a spinal nerve growth implant). This is why Spartan II's, as displayed in Reach, are larger than III's. There is also record of Kelly launching a III into a tree in Ghosts of Onyx.


The situations on K4-79 and Pegasi-delta are completely different scenarios, it would be no challenge whatsoever to "black bag" as you put, someone from operation TORPEDO. And I never said I thought that Six was abducted from TORPEDO, I know for a fact how she survived the op, she was never even part of the mission to begin with. And yes, I do think ONI can black bag almost whoever the hell they want, there are limits to what they can do, but if they can make a planet completely disappear and kidnap 75+ children and get completely away with it, then abducting Spartans would not be impossible, hell, as I said earlier, they've already done it!

He could not have had the SIIIs augmented properly unless he somehow got a hold of Halsey's research, it may not have been him specifically who stole the research, but it would have been done on his orders. So ultimately he did steal it as he is the one responsible for the SIIIs.

The only Spartan II we actually see in Reach is Jorge, and he's bigger than all of the other SIIs except for maybe Sam. So we have no accurate size comparison for SIIs and SIIIs, and I've seen nothing at all to say that they are at all weaker than the SIIs or smaller.

Yet that still doesn't make sense. If Ackerson wanted to black bag people, why reveal that Tom survived to Kurt at all? It doesn't make any sense. Hell why even try to recruit Tom? Hell why go to such great lengths to steal some Spartan III's when you could probably of snatched a couple II's and had a much higher chance of them surviving their missions? Wait, that already happened! Grey and Black were both that, yet apparently two Spartan II teams weren't enough for Spec Ops/Black Ops missions.

Ackerson is not really someone who has been deeply explored, if I knew more about his motivations or his true character I could probably tell, but we don't have that, so I have no answer.

As for the rest of your point her. Why go to the trouble of abducting SIIs when you already have the cream of the crop from your own project, and who are much closer to the SIIs than the rest of the IIIs, easily and readily available? And in case you hadn't forgotten most of the SIIs were dead by that point, and the UNSC lost contact with Grey Team sometime between the Cole Protocol and the end of TFoR. And we don't know where Black Team is, or even if they're still alive.

Then where the hell did they get MJOLNIR? I thought you said that Ackerson stole MJOLNIR from Halsey yet if Ackerson had nothing to do with Noble then why do they have MJOLNIR?

I did not say that Ackerson stole Mjolner, I said he [i]could
have, that is what I meant at least. It could have just as easily been Kurt who got the plans for Mjolner armor, as he spent time forging contacts and using all of his privileges of rank in order to be able to accomplish his own ends rather than Ackerson's when he needed to.

They were the new pod, AKA a mass produced tool used by all UNSC troops. New maybe, but unique? Not in the slightest. If you think my context is off then check yourself. I gave the page number. I looked through the book for a description of their pods but these were all that fit the bill.

I don't have the book, so I cannot look up the context, and until I see it I have no proper answer to your point. And on top of that I simply do not recall it mentioning the Slipspace pods as something mass produced or regularly used at that time. Perhaps working its way there, but it sounds to me like it was more in the prototype/field testing stages.

It can be assumed it was similar for Alpha. Beta started with 375 candidates and yet they were only going to allow 300 through to augmentation. I doubt that was something new seeing as the previous company had exactly 300 as well.

And those guys all had to go somewhere, some are accounted for, yes, as the trainers for the SIIIs, but I highly doubt that there are over 200 trainers, and there would be no real need to replace them either as they're on the front lines or anything of the sort. Some of them either became the Headhunters or were placed in teams like Noble.

The original has an entire inner monologue about him not expecting them nor knowing how to handle them precisely because they were new to him. If they weren't then they would have SOME reference of how they fight based on any information gathered from Harvest (which basically means Johnson).

I only know the original edition of First Strike, so we know the same thing. New to him does not exclude being a new species, and they did not do much fighting with the Brutes or any of the Covenant on Harvest except for the Grunts, and what little intel they had on the Brutes would not be enough for Chief or any Spartan to know how to properly fight them.

'm saying don't hold the lack of knowing something as an argument. If we cannot reference the material it has no bearing on what is being discussed.

My point that claiming anything as drastic as what a lot of this forum is proposing is preposterous still stands. We don't know how they connect, we do know that TFoR and Reach connect because Bungie has said that they do, just because we do not see the connections does not mean that they are not there.

  • 04.20.2011 9:54 PM PDT