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  • Subject: Unexplainable errors in the Halo canon. (Spoilers)
Subject: Unexplainable errors in the Halo canon. (Spoilers)
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got heights from halowiki. not a valuable source but, I'll post them none the less

I believe this is out of their armor because on Emiles wiki page it states his weight in the armor

Carter 208cm (6.83ft)
Kat 205cm (6ft 9.0in)
Jun 210cm (6ft 19.9in)
Emile 208.4 cm (6'10")
Jorge 223 cm (7 ft 4 in)

  • 04.22.2011 9:12 AM PDT
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Deva Path


Posted by: DecepticonCobra

We are all going to get banned aren't we?


Posted by: REDEMPTION T08
got heights from halowiki. not a valuable source but, I'll post them none the less

I believe this is out of their armor because on Emiles wiki page it states his weight in the armor

Carter 208cm (6.83ft)
Kat 205cm (6ft 9.0in)
Jun 210cm (6ft 19.9in)
Emile 208.4 cm (6'10")
Jorge 223 cm (7 ft 4 in)


again this is in there armor seeing how jorge hold be pretty damn tall he he is 7'4 with no armor. he would easily be the tallest human other than sam. Something like that would be noted.

  • 04.22.2011 9:17 AM PDT


Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron
http://www.bungie.net/Stats/Reach/FileDetails.aspx?fid=220701 5

Just saying, that Army trooper looks a good head shorter then Six.


Perspective!

Here is a pic I just took of Six trying to hug an ODST. Taking into account the bulk of MJOLNIR, he's probably only an inch taller than the ODST. Not exactly surprising.

http://www.bungie.net/Stats/Reach/FileDetails.aspx?fid=168368 78&player=RotaryCookie

  • 04.22.2011 9:26 AM PDT


Posted by: RotaryCookie

Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron
http://www.bungie.net/Stats/Reach/FileDetails.aspx?fid=220701 5

Just saying, that Army trooper looks a good head shorter then Six.


Perspective!

Here is a pic I just took of Six trying to hug an ODST. Taking into account the bulk of MJOLNIR, he's probably only an inch taller than the ODST. Not exactly surprising.

http://www.bungie.net/Stats/Reach/FileDetails.aspx?fid=168368 78&player=RotaryCookie


Pose!

Six is still in a light combatish pose, while the ODST is starting to stand fully upright.

  • 04.22.2011 9:33 AM PDT


Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron

Posted by: RotaryCookie

Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron
http://www.bungie.net/Stats/Reach/FileDetails.aspx?fid=220701 5

Just saying, that Army trooper looks a good head shorter then Six.


Perspective!

Here is a pic I just took of Six trying to hug an ODST. Taking into account the bulk of MJOLNIR, he's probably only an inch taller than the ODST. Not exactly surprising.

http://www.bungie.net/Stats/Reach/FileDetails.aspx?fid=168368 78&player=RotaryCookie


Pose!

Six is still in a light combatish pose, while the ODST is starting to stand fully upright.


Uh, no.

Six's head slightly tilted down, yes. However the ODST's knees are significantly bent whereas Six's are close to an upright position, canceling out any "pose" issues.

  • 04.22.2011 9:47 AM PDT


Posted by: RotaryCookie

Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron

Posted by: RotaryCookie

Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron
http://www.bungie.net/Stats/Reach/FileDetails.aspx?fid=220701 5

Just saying, that Army trooper looks a good head shorter then Six.


Perspective!

Here is a pic I just took of Six trying to hug an ODST. Taking into account the bulk of MJOLNIR, he's probably only an inch taller than the ODST. Not exactly surprising.

http://www.bungie.net/Stats/Reach/FileDetails.aspx?fid=168368 78&player=RotaryCookie


Pose!

Six is still in a light combatish pose, while the ODST is starting to stand fully upright.


Uh, no.

Six's head slightly tilted down, yes. However the ODST's knees are significantly bent whereas Six's are close to an upright position, canceling out any "pose" issues.


From what I see, Six's entire torso is titled down.

  • 04.22.2011 9:49 AM PDT

Signatures are for squares.

John is 7 foot, and from what I remember he was an average height spartan. And Sam was a head taller then John, so Sam's about 8 foot.

  • 04.22.2011 10:05 AM PDT

Posted by: UL7IM4 G33K
That isn't the point. The point is that amount of time can be a significant alteration to the overall story and make parts of that story break or change entirely.


Perhaps so, but that is not a definite fact, specifics may possibly have to be changed, but we have very vague information right now, so you cannot state with any degree of certainty that events have changed at all.

This is basically assuming that the ship was immediately abandonded and forgotten about when it docked which I doubt. Someone somewhere knew about the ship and the Cole Protocol is nothing people would disregard in this situation.

There are innumerable reasons for why it went unwiped, I can't say what exactly, because no reason has been given yet. But I do know this, ONI are not always the most willing to follow the laws or policies laid down by the UNSC, so there could be some completely legitimate (to ONI at least) for not initiating the Cole Protocol.

One I can think of would be that the Circumference was not going to remain at Reach for very long and the data was not wiped for that reason, or the crew was killed off when the Covenant Fleet of Particular Justice joined the attack on Reach and caught the UNSC off guard, leaving no one around to purge the data. Becuase we both know that Doppler (I think that was the AI anyway) couldn't do it because of the ONI lockdown on the ship.

And Red Teams drop from orbit and Blue Team's mission to purge the Circumference did indeed still happen, as one of the recent videos on Halo Waypoint talks about them still happening.

I didn't put words in your mouth, you just aren't getting my implications. If he wasn't a part of TORPEDO then he wasn't among the 300 Beta graduates which means he never received augmentation which means he wasn't a III. As per Tom's comment in Ghosts of Onyx.

The details of why she did not take part in TORPEDO are clearly laid out in canon, you are simply refusing to acknowledge or accept them, I gave them to you, but you wouldn't listen. The same for Kat as well.

And where was this "little planning" abduction carried out? In the middle of a warzone? Hostile Covenant controlled space on a whim? I doubt it. I'm not trying to shut everything down here but sometimes you got to look at all the angles. It just doesn't make sense. Again I say why kidnap something that doesn't exist from a suicide op where anyone alive to know they were kidnapped was going to die anyway?

Like I said, ONI is overcautios quite frequently, they don't want anyone asking "awkward" questions, which is why they operate the way they do. If it was carried out at all it would be wherever the ship was when it launched the Slipspace Pods. And remember, the ship wasn't going anywhere near Pegasi-delta, hence the use of the Slipspace Pods to deliver Beta Company. There would be absolutely no danger, as there would be no Covenant ships present, and the ship wasn't going anywhere near Covenant controlled space.

You are correct, I misread. Either way, average hieght and weight for II's was larger than III's. Most Spartan II's were 7' while with III's there were only a few that actually hit that height.

Where are you getting your facts from, might I ask? I've never seen anything saying that the average SII and average SIII are any different in height or weight.

You don't need to abduct anyone for top-secret ops. Just make them not say anything about the op. Kidnapping them is more suspicious than just doing military work as usual. Secondly, Kurt was abducted because he was meant to lead a PROGRAM that DOESN'T EXIST. That is entirely different than working as a black ops team.

No, actually it's really not, as most black ops teams, to my understanding at least, often do not really exist either.

Washouts can be anything from dead, crippled, insubordinate, etc. Not all of them ended up perfect by the end and whatever ONI did with them it wasn't sending them in as psuedo III's.

Actually the Spartan III program had no fatalities from augmentations due to medical advances made since the days of the SIIs' augmentations, nor were there any washouts due to augmentation failures either for the same reason.

Before the ship rained down fire and death they were having a peace negotiation which turned sour - hence combat. Actually, there were really only two serious combat situations in all of Contact Harvest from what I've heard. This one, and the one you mentioned that I have not gotten to.

And there was hardly any combat, not enough to be able glean any information from it, the Brutes bolted out of there pretty much as soon as things turned aggressive. And as I said with the second one, it was pretty much only the Grunts that they fought on the Tiara with a very brief appearance by Tartarus and the Drones put in toward the end of the conflict.

Spartan Laser, Spartans with shields, Elites being around, Brutes having a main combat force, flood... the list goes on.

Gameplay, which is why Jerome does not have it in the "Monsters" cutscene when Forge kills Moramee; gameplay again, Spartans would not be a very effective special unit if they were very, very, very easy to kill which is what they would be without the shields; Elites being encountered throughout the whole war was retconned long ago, this is not something new that Halo Wars introduced; Brutes had a fighting force all throughout the war, they were just normally not really fielded in active combat roles until nearer the end of the war, and also, the Brutes were only encountered in a small squad on the Shield World once; nothing wrong with the Flood making an appearance either, the Spirit of Fire is MIA because it couldn't make it back to the UNSC due to sacrificing it's Slipspace drive, so no word of the Flood makes it back to the UNSC and then they are "first" discovered on Alpha Halo as per Halo:CE. There is nothing to complain about canon wise regarding Halo Wars.

I'm not picking and choosing. Sure I'm being stingy but that's what cannon is all about really. I understand that Buggers and Halo Wars and Reach are technically cannon, but to me I prefer the canon pre-Contact Harvest when it was actually intact and cohesive. That is my preference. But this discussion is not about preference but erroneous material. And since Contact Harvest that has done nothing but increase.

That is the very nature of what you are doing! You and many others in this very thread are picking and choosing what you want as canon and disregarding the rest because you either don't like it, or you think it does not fit. The Halo canon is as cohesive as it ever has been. The only item that even fits what you describe is Halo: Reach, and even then people are way overreacting and making absurd claims that have no basis in reality or exercise any rational thought. And what the opposition to Reach really boils down to is "Reach wasn't exactly TFoR, I don't like it, therefore it must not be canon and it has completely destroyed the story laid out for the rest of the Halo universe!" and then they stick their fingers in their ears and won't listen to any opinions stating otherwise, whether they are rationally thought out opinions or the exact opposite!

  • 04.22.2011 7:47 PM PDT

The Circumference was actually wiped from all logs and isolated from the station computer due to Cortana. She was searching on information about Ackerson I believe and stumbled across the prowler. ONI failsafes did that isolation from all other sources.

  • 04.22.2011 8:10 PM PDT

Posted by: Ageless Durandal

Oh and I'm not sure if this counts, but one small thing to add to your list is on top of the PoA being on Reach in Halo: Reach is that John-117 is shown in cryosleep in the bay of the ship. Not only does this not make sense for him to be in cryosleep before the ship has even left, since in tFoR he is only put in cryosleep before they make the jump to slip-space; but also because why in the world would his cryotube be in the docking bay? That doesn't even make sense just using common sense, and thats not even where we start playing as Chief in CE.

Going by that logic, Johnson would have died in Halo and buck eats bugs off of Monkey Men from Halo 3.

[Edited on 04.23.2011 2:11 AM PDT]

  • 04.23.2011 2:10 AM PDT

"Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind." - Albert Einstien

Posted by: OrderedComa
Perhaps so, but that is not a definite fact, specifics may possibly have to be changed, but we have very vague information right now, so you cannot state with any degree of certainty that events have changed at all.

And you can't say they haven't. This kind of argument is futile. What we should be discussing the likelihood and possibility of current events occurring as they did within the new time frame and that likelihood is many times slim or requires great alteration of cannon to accommodate.

There are innumerable reasons for why it went unwiped, I can't say what exactly, because no reason has been given yet. But I do know this, ONI are not always the most willing to follow the laws or policies laid down by the UNSC, so there could be some completely legitimate (to ONI at least) for not initiating the Cole Protocol.

One I can think of would be that the Circumference was not going to remain at Reach for very long and the data was not wiped for that reason, or the crew was killed off when the Covenant Fleet of Particular Justice joined the attack on Reach and caught the UNSC off guard, leaving no one around to purge the data. Becuase we both know that Doppler (I think that was the AI anyway) couldn't do it because of the ONI lockdown on the ship.

Not even ONI would risk the destruction of the human race for random interests.


And Red Teams drop from orbit and Blue Team's mission to purge the Circumference did indeed still happen, as one of the recent videos on Halo Waypoint talks about them still happening.

Lets go through the first situation.

1) How? If the PoA was docked how is Red Team to be dropped from orbit?

2) Why? Why send all of your greatest fighters on an incredibly risky drop mission through a hot zone when you had enough time to distribute them across the surface before it hit the fan?


The details of why she did not take part in TORPEDO are clearly laid out in canon, you are simply refusing to acknowledge or accept them, I gave them to you, but you wouldn't listen. The same for Kat as well.

Again, you aren't reading what I'm typing. Beta had ONLY 300 Spatan III's. Tom stated that in training there was only 300 slots for them to fill. Thus, this means that if all 300 Spartan III's save for Tom and Lucy died in TORPEDO then Noble 6 was never a part of that 300 and therefore was never augmented. There is no room for Beta to have extras. Tom's quote makes sure of that.


Like I said, ONI is overcautios quite frequently, they don't want anyone asking "awkward" questions, which is why they operate the way they do. If it was carried out at all it would be wherever the ship was when it launched the Slipspace Pods. And remember, the ship wasn't going anywhere near Pegasi-delta, hence the use of the Slipspace Pods to deliver Beta Company. There would be absolutely no danger, as there would be no Covenant ships present, and the ship wasn't going anywhere near Covenant controlled space.

See, this argument has been bugging me alot. You keep telling me ONI can do something cause that's what they do and how they are as if that is evidence. It isn't. ONI doesn't just spend their days kidnapping people and finding crafty ways to do everything in complete secrecy. They are a group of people with ulterior motives and they will go about achieving those goals with the utmost efficiency. Kidnapping and non-existence isn't always their answer.

BTW, the pods were dropped out of slipspace, they did not travel through it on their own power. So the ship would have had to be reasonably close to the planet. What made it safe for them was the fact they didn't have to leave slipspace. Still you have yet to give me evidence beyond one piece of marketing and mounds of conjecture.


Where are you getting your facts from, might I ask? I've never seen anything saying that the average SII and average SIII are any different in height or weight.

It is as simple as looking at their heights and weights, adding them and then dividing by the number. And seeing that a large number of Spartan II's were exactly 7 feet I'm pretty sure the average comes out to 7 feet.


No, actually it's really not, as most black ops teams, to my understanding at least, often do not really exist either.

True, but the difference between 4-8 men and someone who is running an entire operation that is training 300 non-existant people? They do not equate.


Actually the Spartan III program had no fatalities from augmentations due to medical advances made since the days of the SIIs' augmentations, nor were there any washouts due to augmentation failures either for the same reason.

If you've read the books, you should know that augmentation wasn't the only potentially fatal thing in the program. Training is equally dangerous as is Onyx itself. Over the course of several years of training I am sure a good number of them either cracked mentally, were injured greatly or possibly even died during a training exercise.


And there was hardly any combat, not enough to be able glean any information from it, the Brutes bolted out of there pretty much as soon as things turned aggressive. And as I said with the second one, it was pretty much only the Grunts that they fought on the Tiara with a very brief appearance by Tartarus and the Drones put in toward the end of the conflict.

A description of strength, height, weight, technology? Any of these would be helpful. Knowing about the potential of an enemy is just as good as knowing exactly what their capable of. Unfortunately, in First Strike the enemy and all details about them were a mystery.


Gameplay, which is why Jerome does not have it in the "Monsters" cutscene when Forge kills Moramee; gameplay again, Spartans would not be a very effective special unit if they were very, very, very easy to kill which is what they would be without the shields; Elites being encountered throughout the whole war was retconned long ago, this is not something new that Halo Wars introduced; Brutes had a fighting force all throughout the war, they were just normally not really fielded in active combat roles until nearer the end of the war, and also, the Brutes were only encountered in a small squad on the Shield World once; nothing wrong with the Flood making an appearance either, the Spirit of Fire is MIA because it couldn't make it back to the UNSC due to sacrificing it's Slipspace drive, so no word of the Flood makes it back to the UNSC and then they are "first" discovered on Alpha Halo as per Halo:CE. There is nothing to complain about canon wise regarding Halo Wars.

Yet, for some reason, it cannot send any communique? The ship should have been able to at least send a message to the UNSC even without its Slipspace drive. Halo Wars itself is a huge conundrum because while I agree that, specifically as an RTS, the game required many of those elements it could have easily been in an entirely different time period. But if what happens in-game is so easily disregarded as gameplay based then we could possibly say that in Reach the Spartan III's didn't ahve MJOLNIR nor did they have shields (seeing as Kat died despite having her armor on). Hell, perhaps they aren't even III's seeing as the game doesn't even state they are.


That is the very nature of what you are doing! You and many others in this very thread are picking and choosing what you want as canon and disregarding the rest because you either don't like it, or you think it does not fit.

We don't think, we KNOW. DIRECTLY CONFLICTING STATEMENTS about how long the battle of Reach took place. A group of soldiers that was originally stated as all KIA (the III's) with armor they SHOULD NOT HAVE. These are all DIRECT CONFLICTS with existing storyline. This isn't about "thinking" they don't fit but them actually not fitting.


The Halo canon is as cohesive as it ever has been. The only item that even fits what you describe is Halo: Reach, and even then people are way overreacting and making absurd claims that have no basis in reality or exercise any rational thought. And what the opposition to Reach really boils down to is "Reach wasn't exactly TFoR, I don't like it, therefore it must not be canon and it has completely destroyed the story laid out for the rest of the Halo universe!" and then they stick their fingers in their ears and won't listen to any opinions stating otherwise, whether they are rationally thought out opinions or the exact opposite!

It isn't about it not being the same. It is about it almost completely disregarding the book. I swear it is almost as if they themselves hadn't read the novel with how conflicting it truly is with both FoR and GoO. If anyone is sticking their fingers in their ears its you. I've heard every argument you have stated, asked questions about them and yet you insist on sitting here promising me that "oh, the Halo Bible and Bungie have all the info so in there it MUST make sense!". The fact is it does not.

[Edited on 04.23.2011 1:09 PM PDT]

  • 04.23.2011 1:09 PM PDT
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I'm gonna finish it. Just like Jigga did to the pyramid.

an Intrepid Mythic member...don't mess...he's ancient, probably took part in the 1st world war

  • 04.23.2011 3:41 PM PDT

you are what you dare.

http://81st-combatbrigade.forumotion.com/
http://forge4life.betaboard.net/

okay to clear up the noble situation, carte, jun, and emile are all from different companies. of the original noble team, carter and kat are the only original members left alive. jun is originally from charlie company, and emile is from delta company. carter and kat re not however, from alpha compny as stated in the original post. i believe they were part of bravo company, as they were never mentionioned in the astroid incident in ghosts of onyx.then theres jorge, who is a SPARTAN-II as noted by his service tag- S-052. he trained with Lt. Kurt Ambrose, S-051, who is a SPARTAN-II as well, and who also trained every genertion of spartans after being abducted.
well, seeing as this is all fiction just like Star Wars and the Stargate universes,and speculation and more fition concerning the halo universe is encouraged. besides, its all science fiction, it isnt supposed to make perfect sense. theres things in both of the other science fiction titles i mentioned that dont make sense and do not all add up.

  • 04.23.2011 8:08 PM PDT

"What do you hear?"
"Nothing but the rain."
"Then grab your gun and bring in the cat."
"Boom, boom, boom!"

Posted by: kurtambrose051
- SNIP -


Carter and Kat are the only two original members of Noble Team, yes. However, Carter, Jun and Emile are from the same company, Alpha. Kat is from Beta.

-Alpha Company-

Carter-A259

Emile-A239

Jun-A266

-Beta Company-

Kat-B320

SPARTAN-B312

As you can see, Carter, Emile and Jun were part of Alpha and probably knew each other from basic. The same could be said about Six and Kat.

The only reason these five survived their suicide missions was because Kurt and Mendez pulled them out. They had the same genetic make-up of the S-IIs or close to it. Hence why they were pulled out and given MJOLNIR. There were no Charlie and Delta companies btw.

Yes, Jorge trained with Kurt during basic. That's it. Nobody knows his story after the augmentation process.

  • 04.24.2011 1:48 AM PDT

In memory of those fallen in the defense of Earth and her colonies.

March 3, 2553


Posted by: Ageless Durandal
One of the Halo: Evolutions stories state that in every company of S-III, they pull some of them out right before primary deployment to be a part of "Headhunter" teams.
It's possible Kurt pulled more of them out for other things before Pegasi.

Source on site: Here. (Although, they say that they rarely get to pull S-III's right after training, in the book they say they do it pretty often. Probably due to Ackerson wanting more "special" Spartans on his own.)

Also, you do realize that the books are "optional" canon and are over-ridden by the game canon, right?


From memory, a SIII only gets to be picked as a headhunter after they compete their first militarized mission.

  • 04.24.2011 6:25 AM PDT

In memory of those fallen in the defense of Earth and her colonies.

March 3, 2553


Posted by: kit_103
Posted by: kurtambrose051
- SNIP -


Carter and Kat are the only two original members of Noble Team, yes. However, Carter, Jun and Emile are from the same company, Alpha. Kat is from Beta.

-Alpha Company-

Carter-A259

Emile-A239

Jun-A266

-Beta Company-

Kat-B320

SPARTAN-B312

As you can see, Carter, Emile and Jun were part of Alpha and probably knew each other from basic. The same could be said about Six and Kat.

The only reason these five survived their suicide missions was because Kurt and Mendez pulled them out. They had the same genetic make-up of the S-IIs or close to it. Hence why they were pulled out and given MJOLNIR. There were no Charlie and Delta companies btw.

Yes, Jorge trained with Kurt during basic. That's it. Nobody knows his story after the augmentation process.


They were chosen because of their outstanding ability in combat and as a result were given MKV. Which outside of training ops, i don't see how they were granted this title.

  • 04.24.2011 6:29 AM PDT

In memory of those fallen in the defense of Earth and her colonies.

March 3, 2553


Posted by: UL7IM4 G33K
Posted by: OrderedComa
Perhaps so, but that is not a definite fact, specifics may possibly have to be changed, but we have very vague information right now, so you cannot state with any degree of certainty that events have changed at all.

And you can't say they haven't. This kind of argument is futile. What we should be discussing the likelihood and possibility of current events occurring as they did within the new time frame and that likelihood is many times slim or requires great alteration of cannon to accommodate.

There are innumerable reasons for why it went unwiped, I can't say what exactly, because no reason has been given yet. But I do know this, ONI are not always the most willing to follow the laws or policies laid down by the UNSC, so there could be some completely legitimate (to ONI at least) for not initiating the Cole Protocol.

One I can think of would be that the Circumference was not going to remain at Reach for very long and the data was not wiped for that reason, or the crew was killed off when the Covenant Fleet of Particular Justice joined the attack on Reach and caught the UNSC off guard, leaving no one around to purge the data. Becuase we both know that Doppler (I think that was the AI anyway) couldn't do it because of the ONI lockdown on the ship.

Not even ONI would risk the destruction of the human race for random interests.


And Red Teams drop from orbit and Blue Team's mission to purge the Circumference did indeed still happen, as one of the recent videos on Halo Waypoint talks about them still happening.

Lets go through the first situation.

1) How? If the PoA was docked how is Red Team to be dropped from orbit?

2) Why? Why send all of your greatest fighters on an incredibly risky drop mission through a hot zone when you had enough time to distribute them across the surface before it hit the fan?


The details of why she did not take part in TORPEDO are clearly laid out in canon, you are simply refusing to acknowledge or accept them, I gave them to you, but you wouldn't listen. The same for Kat as well.

Again, you aren't reading what I'm typing. Beta had ONLY 300 Spatan III's. Tom stated that in training there was only 300 slots for them to fill. Thus, this means that if all 300 Spartan III's save for Tom and Lucy died in TORPEDO then Noble 6 was never a part of that 300 and therefore was never augmented. There is no room for Beta to have extras. Tom's quote makes sure of that.


Like I said, ONI is overcautios quite frequently, they don't want anyone asking "awkward" questions, which is why they operate the way they do. If it was carried out at all it would be wherever the ship was when it launched the Slipspace Pods. And remember, the ship wasn't going anywhere near Pegasi-delta, hence the use of the Slipspace Pods to deliver Beta Company. There would be absolutely no danger, as there would be no Covenant ships present, and the ship wasn't going anywhere near Covenant controlled space.

See, this argument has been bugging me alot. You keep telling me ONI can do something cause that's what they do and how they are as if that is evidence. It isn't. ONI doesn't just spend their days kidnapping people and finding crafty ways to do everything in complete secrecy. They are a group of people with ulterior motives and they will go about achieving those goals with the utmost efficiency. Kidnapping and non-existence isn't always their answer.

BTW, the pods were dropped out of slipspace, they did not travel through it on their own power. So the ship would have had to be reasonably close to the planet. What made it safe for them was the fact they didn't have to leave slipspace. Still you have yet to give me evidence beyond one piece of marketing and mounds of conjecture.


Where are you getting your facts from, might I ask? I've never seen anything saying that the average SII and average SIII are any different in height or weight.

It is as simple as looking at their heights and weights, adding them and then dividing by the number. And seeing that a large number of Spartan II's were exactly 7 feet I'm pretty sure the average comes out to 7 feet.


No, actually it's really not, as most black ops teams, to my understanding at least, often do not really exist either.

True, but the difference between 4-8 men and someone who is running an entire operation that is training 300 non-existant people? They do not equate.


Actually the Spartan III program had no fatalities from augmentations due to medical advances made since the days of the SIIs' augmentations, nor were there any washouts due to augmentation failures either for the same reason.

If you've read the books, you should know that augmentation wasn't the only potentially fatal thing in the program. Training is equally dangerous as is Onyx itself. Over the course of several years of training I am sure a good number of them either cracked mentally, were injured greatly or possibly even died during a training exercise.


And there was hardly any combat, not enough to be able glean any information from it, the Brutes bolted out of there pretty much as soon as things turned aggressive. And as I said with the second one, it was pretty much only the Grunts that they fought on the Tiara with a very brief appearance by Tartarus and the Drones put in toward the end of the conflict.

A description of strength, height, weight, technology? Any of these would be helpful. Knowing about the potential of an enemy is just as good as knowing exactly what their capable of. Unfortunately, in First Strike the enemy and all details about them were a mystery.


Gameplay, which is why Jerome does not have it in the "Monsters" cutscene when Forge kills Moramee; gameplay again, Spartans would not be a very effective special unit if they were very, very, very easy to kill which is what they would be without the shields; Elites being encountered throughout the whole war was retconned long ago, this is not something new that Halo Wars introduced; Brutes had a fighting force all throughout the war, they were just normally not really fielded in active combat roles until nearer the end of the war, and also, the Brutes were only encountered in a small squad on the Shield World once; nothing wrong with the Flood making an appearance either, the Spirit of Fire is MIA because it couldn't make it back to the UNSC due to sacrificing it's Slipspace drive, so no word of the Flood makes it back to the UNSC and then they are "first" discovered on Alpha Halo as per Halo:CE. There is nothing to complain about canon wise regarding Halo Wars.

Yet, for some reason, it cannot send any communique? The ship should have been able to at least send a message to the UNSC even without its Slipspace drive. Halo Wars itself is a huge conundrum because while I agree that, specifically as an RTS, the game required many of those elements it could have easily been in an entirely different time period. But if what happens in-game is so easily disregarded as gameplay based then we could possibly say that in Reach the Spartan III's didn't ahve MJOLNIR nor did they have shields (seeing as Kat died despite having her armor on). Hell, perhaps they aren't even III's seeing as the game doesn't even state they are.


That is the very nature of what you are doing! You and many others in this very thread are picking and choosing what you want as canon and disregarding the rest because you either don't like it, or you think it does not fit.

We don't think, we KNOW. DIRECTLY CONFLICTING STATEMENTS about how long the battle of Reach took place. A group of soldiers that was originally stated as all KIA (the III's) with armor they SHOULD NOT HAVE. These are all DIRECT CONFLICTS with existing storyline. This isn't about "thinking" they don't fit but them actually not fitting.


The Halo canon is as cohesive as it ever has been. The only item that even fits what you describe is Halo: Reach, and even then people are way overreacting and making absurd claims that have no basis in reality or exercise any rational thought. And what the opposition to Reach really boils down to is "Reach wasn't exactly TFoR, I don't like it, therefore it must not be canon and it has completely destroyed the story laid out for the rest of the Halo universe!" and then they stick their fingers in their ears and won't listen to any opinions stating otherwise, whether they are rationally thought out opinions or the exact opposite!

It isn't about it not being the same. It is about it almost completely disregarding the book. I swear it is almost as if they themselves hadn't read the novel with how conflicting it truly is with both FoR and GoO. If anyone is sticking their fingers in their ears its you. I've heard every argument you have stated, asked questions about them and yet you insist on sitting here promising me that "oh, the Halo Bible and Bungie have all the info so in there it MUST make sense!". The fact is it does not.


Fanboys eh?

God i hate them.

  • 04.24.2011 6:38 AM PDT

In memory of those fallen in the defense of Earth and her colonies.

March 3, 2553

Just thought of a plot hole i believe.

I haven't read FoR in a while so correct me if i am wrong.

To my knowledge Dr. Hasley had no knowledge of the SIII program until they were trapped underground with Kelly. This was obviously later confirmed when she saw Ackersons' handiwork first hand in GoO.

So seeing this as true. How would she have even known about Carter, Kat, Jun and Emile if she had no knowledge of the SIII program? (Saying if they did exist for a second).

I don't know the exact page number in FoR but i bet somebody can find it. Or at least quote me on this.

  • 04.24.2011 6:46 AM PDT

Signatures are for squares.

Posted by: cameo_cream
Just thought of a plot hole i believe.

I haven't read FoR in a while so correct me if i am wrong.

To my knowledge Dr. Hasley had no knowledge of the SIII program until they were trapped underground with Kelly. This was obviously later confirmed when she saw Ackersons' handiwork first hand in GoO.

So seeing this as true. How would she have even known about Carter, Kat, Jun and Emile if she had no knowledge of the SIII program? (Saying if they did exist for a second).

I don't know the exact page number in FoR but i bet somebody can find it. Or at least quote me on this.


This error was BARELY excused thanks to Halsey's Journal. In it, she states that she believed Noble team to be from a rival project. Though she did recognize Jorge. She didn't believe them to be Spartan III's.

  • 04.24.2011 7:19 AM PDT
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Posted by: cameo_cream

Posted by: kit_103
Posted by: kurtambrose051
- SNIP -


Carter and Kat are the only two original members of Noble Team, yes. However, Carter, Jun and Emile are from the same company, Alpha. Kat is from Beta.

-Alpha Company-

Carter-A259

Emile-A239

Jun-A266

-Beta Company-

Kat-B320

SPARTAN-B312

As you can see, Carter, Emile and Jun were part of Alpha and probably knew each other from basic. The same could be said about Six and Kat.

The only reason these five survived their suicide missions was because Kurt and Mendez pulled them out. They had the same genetic make-up of the S-IIs or close to it. Hence why they were pulled out and given MJOLNIR. There were no Charlie and Delta companies btw.

Yes, Jorge trained with Kurt during basic. That's it. Nobody knows his story after the augmentation process.


They were chosen because of their outstanding ability in combat and as a result were given MKV. Which outside of training ops, i don't see how they were granted this title.

IIRC Aplha and Beta companies were active for several years after training before they went on their suicide missions. Thats plenty of time for other ops and for distinguished individuals to stand out.

  • 04.24.2011 11:49 AM PDT
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1. mabye by fell, they mean glassed?
2. Emile, Jun and Carter might have been taken out of normal groups and put into NOBLE, like the headhunters
3. ONI might have been busy?
4. same as 2
5. other side of planet?
6. mabye the final level was more important?

i havent read all the books so might not be accurate but it works for me for now

  • 04.24.2011 12:00 PM PDT

"What do you hear?"
"Nothing but the rain."
"Then grab your gun and bring in the cat."
"Boom, boom, boom!"

Posted by: cameo_cream
They were chosen because of their outstanding ability in combat


That too.


You know as well as I do that we wind up with some that she would have chosen...



Posted by: Nameless Oracle
IIRC Aplha and Beta companies were active for several years after training before they went on their suicide missions. Thats plenty of time for other ops and for distinguished individuals to stand out.


Exactly. They had more then enough OPs under their belt to be pulled and put elsewhere.

I see it as both ways. Excellent soldiers in the field (surprisingly) and with the way Kurt was talking to Mendez in the letter, the genetics were there.

Honestly, it is up to one on how they view something like that. I wouldn't consider this as off as the PoA being on Reach or something similar.

  • 04.24.2011 12:18 PM PDT


Posted by: THE ROZERS
1. mabye by fell, they mean glassed?
2. Emile, Jun and Carter might have been taken out of normal groups and put into NOBLE, like the headhunters
3. ONI might have been busy?
4. same as 2
5. other side of planet?
6. mabye the final level was more important?

i havent read all the books so might not be accurate but it works for me for now

1. From the first Covenant ship arriving, to total overrun of UNSC forces, the Battle of Reach took a single day, with small pockets of ground forces skirmishing for some time afterwards in tFoR and First Strike.
3. You are never too 'busy' to enact Cole Protocol. Not for a month, while you are slowly being overrun by Covenant forces.
5. Noble's comments in the cutscene for LNOS imply the entire fleet at Reach has been taken out. Were that the case, the Orbital Guns would have been destroyed, and Reach would NEVER have lasted another day. Regardless, the Super Carrier and one or two frigates are the only Covenant ships there, why would the ODP's have been sitting there, doing nothing?
6.I mean no offense, but that is incredibly weak.

[Edited on 04.24.2011 3:35 PM PDT]

  • 04.24.2011 3:32 PM PDT


Posted by: EchoGamer

Posted by: THE ROZERS
1. mabye by fell, they mean glassed?
2. Emile, Jun and Carter might have been taken out of normal groups and put into NOBLE, like the headhunters
3. ONI might have been busy?
4. same as 2
5. other side of planet?
6. mabye the final level was more important?

i havent read all the books so might not be accurate but it works for me for now

1. From the first Covenant ship arriving, to total overrun of UNSC forces, the Battle of Reach took a single day, with small pockets of ground forces skirmishing for some time afterwards in tFoR and First Strike.
3. You are never too 'busy' to enact Cole Protocol. Not for a month, while you are slowly being overrun by Covenant forces.
5. Noble's comments in the cutscene for LNOS imply the entire fleet at Reach has been taken out. Were that the case, the Orbital Guns would have been destroyed, and Reach would NEVER have lasted another day. Regardless, the Super Carrier and one or two frigates are the only Covenant ships there, why would the ODP's have been sitting there, doing nothing?
6.I mean no offense, but that is incredibly weak.


Um, the ODP would be sitting there doing nothing because the enemy ships are out of firing arc?

Aka, other side of the planet. UNSC command would be loath to send an attack which could lose a great number of ships to destroy the super-carrier when they had the plan by Kat made up soon after it appeared.

  • 04.24.2011 3:37 PM PDT


Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron

Posted by: EchoGamer

Posted by: THE ROZERS
1. mabye by fell, they mean glassed?
2. Emile, Jun and Carter might have been taken out of normal groups and put into NOBLE, like the headhunters
3. ONI might have been busy?
4. same as 2
5. other side of planet?
6. mabye the final level was more important?

i havent read all the books so might not be accurate but it works for me for now

1. From the first Covenant ship arriving, to total overrun of UNSC forces, the Battle of Reach took a single day, with small pockets of ground forces skirmishing for some time afterwards in tFoR and First Strike.
3. You are never too 'busy' to enact Cole Protocol. Not for a month, while you are slowly being overrun by Covenant forces.
5. Noble's comments in the cutscene for LNOS imply the entire fleet at Reach has been taken out. Were that the case, the Orbital Guns would have been destroyed, and Reach would NEVER have lasted another day. Regardless, the Super Carrier and one or two frigates are the only Covenant ships there, why would the ODP's have been sitting there, doing nothing?
6.I mean no offense, but that is incredibly weak.


Um, the ODP would be sitting there doing nothing because the enemy ships are out of firing arc?

Aka, other side of the planet. UNSC command would be loath to send an attack which could lose a great number of ships to destroy the super-carrier when they had the plan by Kat made up soon after it appeared.

So, in tFoR, why did the Covenant fly into the ODP's if they could simply circumvent them by going to the other side of the planet?

  • 04.24.2011 3:40 PM PDT