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  • Subject: Unexplainable errors in the Halo canon. (Spoilers)
Subject: Unexplainable errors in the Halo canon. (Spoilers)
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Posted by: MasterSin

Posted by: Go Vader
Posted by: MasterSin

Posted by: Go Vader
The fact remains, a few errors in one short hardly means Legends failed, especially in comparison to Reach.


Agree, we're back to Halo: Reach...such a disappointment from Bungie...

So you can kindly remove the "until 343 screwed up canon" line from your post. This hatred towards absolutely little canon inconsistency towards 343 pisses me off, especially when I see people who hate 343 giving Bungie a free pass and not condemning their canon errors with Reach. Not particularly you.


I don't remove my comments for Halo Legends, it is an epic fail, and you will keep defending it. But the real problem remains in Halo: Reach inconsistency.

You obviously have no idea what an epic fail is since all you can muster up is about four canon errors and two of them can be debated.

  • 09.20.2010 5:26 PM PDT


Posted by: MasterSin

Posted by: Go Vader
Posted by: MasterSin

Posted by: Go Vader
The fact remains, a few errors in one short hardly means Legends failed, especially in comparison to Reach.


Agree, we're back to Halo: Reach...such a disappointment from Bungie...

So you can kindly remove the "until 343 screwed up canon" line from your post. This hatred towards absolutely little canon inconsistency towards 343 pisses me off, especially when I see people who hate 343 giving Bungie a free pass and not condemning their canon errors with Reach. Not particularly you.


I don't remove my comments for Halo Legends, it is an epic fail, and you will keep defending it. But the real problem remains in Halo: Reach inconsistency.

Well if a few minor oversights in a few of Halo Legends' shorts makes it an epic fail, you must be burning Halo: Reach right now.

  • 09.20.2010 5:26 PM PDT

Et Eärello Endorenna utúlien.
Sinome maruvan ar Hildinyar.
tenn' Ambar-metta!

Whatever makes you happy.

  • 09.20.2010 5:29 PM PDT
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Posted by: Achronos
It isn't our shiznit anymore.

*** Spoilers below ***

Posted by: Hysterical Joker
You seem to assume that Mythic members must have all the answers and are unbiased, objective lorebraries.

That aside, just because I haven't responded to everyone's ideas about how to fix canon, does not mean they are not flawed and correct. So I can't judge and say, because I haven't taken time to sift through every one of them.

Bending canon, to me, means changing the rules of how the universe works. Giving the PoA thrusters to retcon it to be atmosphere capable? That's fine, that's retcon, not canon bending.

Now, since Halo: Reach says Reach takes quite a bit longer to fall, does that mean everything from the books is null and never happened, because the timelines no longer line up?

See, the funny part when you screw up your dates, is that it cascades into an ever growing cluster-blam!- until someone goes back in and fixes it. If Bungie didn't have plans to follow their canon so closely, why bother giving those details?

No, I don't imagine Mythics to be gods, but I do hold them to higher standards than everyone else.

I do agree that the battle has now changed in both length and starting point. I read a post somewhere that had good evidence that the PoA did all of the things it did in tFoR as well as Halo Reach, matching times in both the books and games, but I'll have to check that myself.

Generally, I'm more forgiving when it comes to canon errors. When I spot an error, I say to myself, "Why would Bungie do this?" It seems a lot of people are just stopping here and saying, "Well, Bungie doesn't care anymore, it's not their game! They screwed us over on purpose!!!1!" But what a lot of people need to understand is:

1) No game is perfect. Even if you grabbed all of the "universe elites" and put them in a room together to make a new Halo game, there would still be canon issues. It's unavoidable, so to hate Bungie for a few inconsistencies is dishonest at best. Now, I know you are going to chime in and say, "But these mistakes are huge!", which is where number two comes in.

2) When making a game's plot, there is always a balance between quality and consistency. Quality being how good the campaign is to people in general, and consistency being how canonically correct it is. It is very hard to have a game that is canonically correct and "good" at the same time (this is where retconning as well as personal solutions to canon errors comes in). You are limited by what is already established in the current fictional universe. My example would be adding in Halsey instead of another faceless scientist. Many people know Halsey, mostly through Cortana. Without her, people wouldn't care much for the retconned scientist, and the quality would go down. Another example would be adding Cortana as the AI you have to rescue and escape with. Without Cortana being the AI, you would say "Why am I rescuing this again?" and again, quality suffers.

So when I see an error, I first try to fix it. If I can't, I say, "It was in the pursuit of a better campaign experience, and I'm ok wit that."

[Edited on 09.20.2010 5:43 PM PDT]

  • 09.20.2010 5:40 PM PDT

I understand such things, and I believe the way they remedied Halsey and Cortana as sufficient. The thing is, Bungie has always been so keen on details, why only fix some without fixing the rest? It seems haphazard.

In addition, they had a perfectly rich story to work with in the first place, they could've probably told the same story with Noble Team without needing to create so many things that would need to be retconned. In addition, they didn't even need to use Noble Team, there were so many stories that could be told by so many different viewpoints.

I think the general attitude of people upset is this:
- They didn't need to create so many inconsistencies and require so many retcons in the first place, and instead chose to go that route, and chose to insult the hardcore fans who requested for years to see Reach's story be told with the way they went about producing the game.

We're trying to make sense of the butchered story Bungie has given us, because we've been dissecting and nitpicking it for years, it's silly for Bungie to expect us to all of a sudden think "Oh well, don't think about it too hard" now.

  • 09.20.2010 5:51 PM PDT

The Force that was seen prior to the ending of the level Long Night of Solace appeared to be more or less an expeditionary force. It also appears that they were tryin to establish a foothold, which Noble Team and the UNSC Army attacked on the level Tip of the Spear, which would have been the base of operations for the primary attack force.

As was seen in the End Cutscene of the former level, the main fleet didn't arrive until August 12.

  • 09.20.2010 6:06 PM PDT


Posted by: Plasma3150
The Force that was seen prior to the ending of the level Long Night of Solace appeared to be more or less an expeditionary force. It also appears that they were tryin to establish a foothold, which Noble Team and the UNSC Army attacked on the level Tip of the Spear, which would have been the base of operations for the primary attack force.

As was seen in the End Cutscene of the former level, the main fleet didn't arrive until August 12.


There's still the issue of how the supercarrier wasn't discovered before it could deploy and activate the cloaking towers.

  • 09.20.2010 6:08 PM PDT


Posted by: Hysterical Joker

Posted by: Plasma3150
The Force that was seen prior to the ending of the level Long Night of Solace appeared to be more or less an expeditionary force. It also appears that they were tryin to establish a foothold, which Noble Team and the UNSC Army attacked on the level Tip of the Spear, which would have been the base of operations for the primary attack force.

As was seen in the End Cutscene of the former level, the main fleet didn't arrive until August 12.


There's still the issue of how the supercarrier wasn't discovered before it could deploy and activate the cloaking towers.
The towers could have been built beforehand.

Does anyone know the maximum range of those things? This is an honest question. If they do have a long projector range, the ship could just sweep in.

Also, if they are capable of cloaking a ship that is larger than a Starwars Super Star Destroyer, what else are they capable of hiding from the sensors? I mean,they can obviously also cloak the ship's heat emission.

  • 09.20.2010 6:15 PM PDT
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Posted by: Achronos
It isn't our shiznit anymore.

Posted by: Hysterical Joker
I understand such things, and I believe the way they remedied Halsey and Cortana as sufficient. The thing is, Bungie has always been so keen on details, why only fix some without fixing the rest? It seems haphazard.

In addition, they had a perfectly rich story to work with in the first place, they could've probably told the same story with Noble Team without needing to create so many things that would need to be retconned. In addition, they didn't even need to use Noble Team, there were so many stories that could be told by so many different viewpoints.

I think the general attitude of people upset is this:
- They didn't need to create so many inconsistencies and require so many retcons in the first place, and instead chose to go that route, and chose to insult the hardcore fans who requested for years to see Reach's story be told with the way they went about producing the game.

We're trying to make sense of the butchered story Bungie has given us, because we've been dissecting and nitpicking it for years, it's silly for Bungie to expect us to all of a sudden think "Oh well, don't think about it too hard" now.

Meh, I never was a nitpicker. Kelly's got a new hair color? Ok, that's cool.

I think Bungie felt they needed a new group of people for the purpose of being able to personalize each character so much and not be bound by current canon so much. I think the only other viable team to work with would be Red Team (with about two campaign missions max with Blue Team), and they all wore relatively the same armor which wouldn't allow for personalization nor a good campaign experience (Red Team is deployed to camp some generators for a few hours, then die, woohoo).

I think you are referring to a game version of tFoR (and FS) that follows the plot exactly and maybe fleshes out a few details. That wouldn't exactly be a fun or exciting campaign, since I can predict most of what happens.

There probably were many different options Bungie could use as characters, but would those options be fun to play with/as? Most likely Bungie sorted all these choices out and said, "You know what? Being tied to this canon is restricting. Why don't we just retcon a new Spartan team and tell an amazing story with less restrictions?" *Cue ONI*

And I'm not completely buying your statement of "They didn't need to create so many inconsistencies and require so many retcons in the first place." Talk is cheap. Sure they could have made another campaign with less inconsistencies, but would it be fun?

At the end of it all, I don't look at a game and say, "Well the canon is atrocious, the game is garbage." I say, "The canon could use some work, but the trade off for one of the best campaigns I have played to date is well worth it."

  • 09.20.2010 6:18 PM PDT


Posted by: Plasma3150

Posted by: Hysterical Joker

Posted by: Plasma3150
The Force that was seen prior to the ending of the level Long Night of Solace appeared to be more or less an expeditionary force. It also appears that they were tryin to establish a foothold, which Noble Team and the UNSC Army attacked on the level Tip of the Spear, which would have been the base of operations for the primary attack force.

As was seen in the End Cutscene of the former level, the main fleet didn't arrive until August 12.


There's still the issue of how the supercarrier wasn't discovered before it could deploy and activate the cloaking towers.
The towers could have been built beforehand.

Does anyone know the maximum range of those things? This is an honest question. If they do have a long projector range, the ship could just sweep in.

Also, if they are capable of cloaking a ship that is larger than a Starwars Super Star Destroyer, what else are they capable of hiding from the sensors? I mean,they can obviously also cloak the ship's heat emission.
Those are pretty big towers. The Supercarrier itself would've had to transport the materials.

  • 09.20.2010 6:20 PM PDT
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Posted by: Achronos
It isn't our shiznit anymore.

Posted by: Hysterical Joker
Posted by: Plasma3150
The Force that was seen prior to the ending of the level Long Night of Solace appeared to be more or less an expeditionary force. It also appears that they were tryin to establish a foothold, which Noble Team and the UNSC Army attacked on the level Tip of the Spear, which would have been the base of operations for the primary attack force.

As was seen in the End Cutscene of the former level, the main fleet didn't arrive until August 12.


There's still the issue of how the supercarrier wasn't discovered before it could deploy and activate the cloaking towers.

Ship has its own prototype cloaking device, but it requires the super carrier to disable shields and power down almost all non critical systems. Additionally, this cloaking system only works for little while, and ends up damaging the ship (solving the problem of why didn't the Covenant mass produce this cloaking technology?). The cloaked ship allows ground forces to set up more permanent cloaking towers on the surface.

Done!

  • 09.20.2010 6:23 PM PDT


Posted by: P3P5I
Posted by: Hysterical Joker
I understand such things, and I believe the way they remedied Halsey and Cortana as sufficient. The thing is, Bungie has always been so keen on details, why only fix some without fixing the rest? It seems haphazard.

In addition, they had a perfectly rich story to work with in the first place, they could've probably told the same story with Noble Team without needing to create so many things that would need to be retconned. In addition, they didn't even need to use Noble Team, there were so many stories that could be told by so many different viewpoints.

I think the general attitude of people upset is this:
- They didn't need to create so many inconsistencies and require so many retcons in the first place, and instead chose to go that route, and chose to insult the hardcore fans who requested for years to see Reach's story be told with the way they went about producing the game.

We're trying to make sense of the butchered story Bungie has given us, because we've been dissecting and nitpicking it for years, it's silly for Bungie to expect us to all of a sudden think "Oh well, don't think about it too hard" now.

Meh, I never was a nitpicker. Kelly's got a new hair color? Ok, that's cool.

I think Bungie felt they needed a new group of people for the purpose of being able to personalize each character so much and not be bound by current canon so much. I think the only other viable team to work with would be Red Team (with about two campaign missions max with Blue Team), and they all wore relatively the same armor which wouldn't allow for personalization nor a good campaign experience (Red Team is deployed to camp some generators for a few hours, then die, woohoo).

I think you are referring to a game version of tFoR (and FS) that follows the plot exactly and maybe fleshes out a few details. That wouldn't exactly be a fun or exciting campaign, since I can predict most of what happens.

There probably were many different options Bungie could use as characters, but would those options be fun to play with/as? Most likely Bungie sorted all these choices out and said, "You know what? Being tied to this canon is restricting. Why don't we just retcon a new Spartan team and tell an amazing story with less restrictions?" *Cue ONI*

And I'm not completely buying your statement of "They didn't need to create so many inconsistencies and require so many retcons in the first place." Talk is cheap. Sure they could have made another campaign with less inconsistencies, but would it be fun?

At the end of it all, I don't look at a game and say, "Well the canon is atrocious, the game is garbage." I say, "The canon could use some work, but the trade off for one of the best campaigns I have played to date is well worth it."

Bungie could come in and say "You know what, all of TFoR is not canon anymore" and it would work, instead of trying to splice the two together and just create a lot of confusion and uncertainty to the story.

  • 09.20.2010 6:23 PM PDT


Posted by: Hysterical Joker

Posted by: Plasma3150

Posted by: Hysterical Joker

Posted by: Plasma3150
The Force that was seen prior to the ending of the level Long Night of Solace appeared to be more or less an expeditionary force. It also appears that they were tryin to establish a foothold, which Noble Team and the UNSC Army attacked on the level Tip of the Spear, which would have been the base of operations for the primary attack force.

As was seen in the End Cutscene of the former level, the main fleet didn't arrive until August 12.


There's still the issue of how the supercarrier wasn't discovered before it could deploy and activate the cloaking towers.
The towers could have been built beforehand.

Does anyone know the maximum range of those things? This is an honest question. If they do have a long projector range, the ship could just sweep in.

Also, if they are capable of cloaking a ship that is larger than a Starwars Super Star Destroyer, what else are they capable of hiding from the sensors? I mean,they can obviously also cloak the ship's heat emission.
Those are pretty big towers. The Supercarrier itself would've had to transport the materials.
It would have also been able to use thousands Phantoms and Spirits. They have been seen building structures in Halo 3, and they are also able to carry Troopsto work out the finer touches of the construction project.

It also helps that a large portion of Reach is uncolonized.

  • 09.20.2010 6:24 PM PDT
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Posted by: Achronos
It isn't our shiznit anymore.

Posted by: Hysterical Joker
Bungie could come in and say "You know what, all of TFoR is not canon anymore" and it would work, instead of trying to splice the two together and just create a lot of confusion and uncertainty to the story.

Well that's no fun!

  • 09.20.2010 6:32 PM PDT


Posted by: Plasma3150

Posted by: Hysterical Joker

Posted by: Plasma3150

Posted by: Hysterical Joker

Posted by: Plasma3150
The Force that was seen prior to the ending of the level Long Night of Solace appeared to be more or less an expeditionary force. It also appears that they were tryin to establish a foothold, which Noble Team and the UNSC Army attacked on the level Tip of the Spear, which would have been the base of operations for the primary attack force.

As was seen in the End Cutscene of the former level, the main fleet didn't arrive until August 12.


There's still the issue of how the supercarrier wasn't discovered before it could deploy and activate the cloaking towers.
The towers could have been built beforehand.

Does anyone know the maximum range of those things? This is an honest question. If they do have a long projector range, the ship could just sweep in.

Also, if they are capable of cloaking a ship that is larger than a Starwars Super Star Destroyer, what else are they capable of hiding from the sensors? I mean,they can obviously also cloak the ship's heat emission.
Those are pretty big towers. The Supercarrier itself would've had to transport the materials.
It would have also been able to use thousands Phantoms and Spirits. They have been seen building structures in Halo 3, and they are also able to carry Troopsto work out the finer touches of the construction project.

It also helps that a large portion of Reach is uncolonized.

You mean the thousands of Seraphs and Phantoms being carried by the Supercarrier?

It doesn't account for all the orbiting shipyards, MAC platforms, fleet, etc.

  • 09.20.2010 6:39 PM PDT


Posted by: P3P5I
Posted by: Hysterical Joker
Bungie could come in and say "You know what, all of TFoR is not canon anymore" and it would work, instead of trying to splice the two together and just create a lot of confusion and uncertainty to the story.

Well that's no fun!

Why? They aren't using much of TFoR anyway, and not confirming it isn't canon just makes a lot of confusion while people try to figure out what works, what doesn't work, and try to somehow reconcile plot inconsistencies without Bungie officially retconning it.

  • 09.20.2010 6:40 PM PDT

I completely agree that there are several inconsistencies between TFoR and Halo: Reach, however, Nylund himself had stated having the Halo Bible at the ready helped fit his book into the established canon. BUT he also had to bend the bible itself to fit small parts of the book into the bible.

A possible situation is that if the books (suddenly overridden in priority in regards to canon) are to match the games, the books would have to be completely re-written, or Halo: Reach could be written off as a "alternate universe" Star Trek has done this multiple times. Marvel even uses this to expand and tell new stories to flesh out what we already know.

As a closing remark it should be noted that until Bungie gives official statements regarding the state of the universe that Halo: Reach has presented, we have to live with the choices that were taken to make Halo: Reach's story. I'm not exactly sure where I saw this, but I might have seen an article which described 343's intention to craft a story that they felt would be better fitting for the game than the one that was outlined in TFoR. This could be supported by the fact that at the end of the day , Bungie's last involvement in the Halo series had to include a severe amount of change in already established canon. In order to craft a story that they felt proud of, and felt would wrap up THEIR involvement in the franchise. This is all conjecture and opinion however, and I can do little to support the proposed theory with anything other than speculation.

  • 09.20.2010 6:51 PM PDT
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Posted by: Achronos
It isn't our shiznit anymore.

Posted by: Hysterical Joker
Why? They aren't using much of TFoR anyway, and not confirming it isn't canon just makes a lot of confusion while people try to figure out what works, what doesn't work, and try to somehow reconcile plot inconsistencies without Bungie officially retconning it.

I think of it like trying to solve a really hard problem (whether it be math, science, or life in general). There may be one answer, two, a thousand, or none. Simply giving us the answer takes away from the fun of trying to work the problem out.

  • 09.20.2010 6:54 PM PDT


Posted by: P3P5I
Posted by: Hysterical Joker
Posted by: Plasma3150
The Force that was seen prior to the ending of the level Long Night of Solace appeared to be more or less an expeditionary force. It also appears that they were tryin to establish a foothold, which Noble Team and the UNSC Army attacked on the level Tip of the Spear, which would have been the base of operations for the primary attack force.

As was seen in the End Cutscene of the former level, the main fleet didn't arrive until August 12.


There's still the issue of how the supercarrier wasn't discovered before it could deploy and activate the cloaking towers.

Ship has its own prototype cloaking device, but it requires the super carrier to disable shields and power down almost all non critical systems. Additionally, this cloaking system only works for little while, and ends up damaging the ship (solving the problem of why didn't the Covenant mass produce this cloaking technology?). The cloaked ship allows ground forces to set up more permanent cloaking towers on the surface.

Done!

Except canon states the Covenant aren't innovative, all they do is imitate. It was one of the major factors why Humanity was able to win the war, they could adapt, evolve, create new things.

  • 09.20.2010 7:00 PM PDT


Posted by: P3P5I
Posted by: Hysterical Joker
Why? They aren't using much of TFoR anyway, and not confirming it isn't canon just makes a lot of confusion while people try to figure out what works, what doesn't work, and try to somehow reconcile plot inconsistencies without Bungie officially retconning it.

I think of it like trying to solve a really hard problem (whether it be math, science, or life in general). There may be one answer, two, a thousand, or none. Simply giving us the answer takes away from the fun of trying to work the problem out.

The fun comes in finding all the connections Bungie creates, and piecing together the puzzle.
I don't find it very fun trying to mend what they broke and spend all my time trying to have it make sense again just so I can move onto doing what was fun.

  • 09.20.2010 7:02 PM PDT
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Posted by: Achronos
It isn't our shiznit anymore.

Posted by: Hysterical Joker
Posted by: P3P5I
Posted by: Hysterical Joker
Why? They aren't using much of TFoR anyway, and not confirming it isn't canon just makes a lot of confusion while people try to figure out what works, what doesn't work, and try to somehow reconcile plot inconsistencies without Bungie officially retconning it.

I think of it like trying to solve a really hard problem (whether it be math, science, or life in general). There may be one answer, two, a thousand, or none. Simply giving us the answer takes away from the fun of trying to work the problem out.

The fun comes in finding all the connections Bungie creates, and piecing together the puzzle.
I don't find it very fun trying to mend what they broke and spend all my time trying to have it make sense again just so I can move onto doing what was fun.

And to each his own.

Posted by: Hysterical Joker
Except canon states the Covenant aren't innovative, all they do is imitate. It was one of the major factors why Humanity was able to win the war, they could adapt, evolve, create new things.

Well that doesn't mean the Covenant sit around the science lab all day going "Duhhhhh". They could have recently found a forerunner artifact off a glassed planet/excavation site on a new planet and reverse engineered the technology and have realized this is the perfect situation to test it out in a battle environment on one of their largest ships.

  • 09.20.2010 7:07 PM PDT


Posted by: P3P5I
Posted by: Hysterical Joker
Posted by: P3P5I
Posted by: Hysterical Joker
Why? They aren't using much of TFoR anyway, and not confirming it isn't canon just makes a lot of confusion while people try to figure out what works, what doesn't work, and try to somehow reconcile plot inconsistencies without Bungie officially retconning it.

I think of it like trying to solve a really hard problem (whether it be math, science, or life in general). There may be one answer, two, a thousand, or none. Simply giving us the answer takes away from the fun of trying to work the problem out.

The fun comes in finding all the connections Bungie creates, and piecing together the puzzle.
I don't find it very fun trying to mend what they broke and spend all my time trying to have it make sense again just so I can move onto doing what was fun.

And to each his own.

Posted by: Hysterical Joker
Except canon states the Covenant aren't innovative, all they do is imitate. It was one of the major factors why Humanity was able to win the war, they could adapt, evolve, create new things.

Well that doesn't mean the Covenant sit around the science lab all day going "Duhhhhh". They could have recently found a forerunner artifact off a glassed planet/excavation site on a new planet and reverse engineered the technology and have realized this is the perfect situation to test it out in a battle environment on one of their largest ships.

Then what's the purpose of laying down the cloaking towers in the first place if they can just cloak(although you mention the damage, they could cloak long enough to have all that stuff constructed, they weren't far off from not needing it anymore).

Another question is why is the supercarrier there in the first place before the fleet?

  • 09.20.2010 7:09 PM PDT

I mean, I really don't see the point of them needing cloaking towers when their ship can cloak in the first place.

Anyway, the concept of them finding super experimental Forerunner technology that doesn't work and injures their ships sounds pretty silly.

But whatever. There's no proof either which way such a thing existed in prior canon

  • 09.20.2010 7:18 PM PDT
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Posted by: Achronos
It isn't our shiznit anymore.

Posted by: Hysterical Joker
Then what's the purpose of laying down the cloaking towers in the first place if they can just cloak(although you mention the damage, they could cloak long enough to have all that stuff constructed, they weren't far off from not needing it anymore).

Another question is why is the supercarrier there in the first place before the fleet?

I'm sure those precious hours/days of extra cloaking were well worth the construction of those towers. Weren't the Covenant there in the first place as an expeditionary force? They attacked Sword Base, where you later find out is above the Forerunner structure. I doubt that is a coincidence.

Edit for your second post: Aww, I was having fun trying to think these things through.

[Edited on 09.20.2010 7:27 PM PDT]

  • 09.20.2010 7:26 PM PDT


Posted by: P3P5I
Posted by: Hysterical Joker
Then what's the purpose of laying down the cloaking towers in the first place if they can just cloak(although you mention the damage, they could cloak long enough to have all that stuff constructed, they weren't far off from not needing it anymore).

Another question is why is the supercarrier there in the first place before the fleet?

I'm sure those precious hours/days of extra cloaking were well worth the construction of those towers. Weren't the Covenant there in the first place as an expeditionary force? They attacked Sword Base, where you later find out is above the Forerunner structure. I doubt that is a coincidence.

If that's the case, they would've been detected because the Visegard Comm Relay would've picked them up on long range sensors(I was assuming its destruction meant that it wouldn't be picked up).

If you're assuming the carrier was a part of the expeditionary, then they would've been detected. Also would've been picked up on orbit by heat emissions and radiation.

On another note, just got done playing Slayer with Ske7h

  • 09.20.2010 7:38 PM PDT