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  • Subject: Unexplainable errors in the Halo canon. (Spoilers)
Subject: Unexplainable errors in the Halo canon. (Spoilers)

"What do you hear?"
"Nothing but the rain."
"Then grab your gun and bring in the cat."
"Boom, boom, boom!"

Posted by: EchoGamer
3. You are never too 'busy' to enact Cole Protocol. Not for a month, while you are slowly being overrun by Covenant forces.


From my understanding, the Cole Protocol was still in effect when WINTER CONTINGENCY was declared.

Pulled from here.

Honestly, I don't think the prowler had been docked with the station since WINTER CONTINGENCY was declared. It might have shown up in the later hours of the invasion and docked but then why would you do that if you know Reach is under attack?

If I wanted to take a terrible guess, I'd say that maybe it was an emergency sort of thing. Docked as quick possible but the crews of both ran into some sort of trouble. Sent out the distress call before being killed, which is where Blue Team comes in.

Quickest and dirtiest thing I could come up with. Could use a lot of work too.

  • 04.24.2011 4:47 PM PDT


Posted by: kit_103
Posted by: EchoGamer
3. You are never too 'busy' to enact Cole Protocol. Not for a month, while you are slowly being overrun by Covenant forces.


From my understanding, the Cole Protocol was still in effect when WINTER CONTINGENCY was declared.

Pulled from here.

Honestly, I don't think the prowler had been docked with the station since WINTER CONTINGENCY was declared. It might have shown up in the later hours of the invasion and docked but then why would you do that if you know Reach is under attack?

If I wanted to take a terrible guess, I'd say that maybe it was an emergency sort of thing. Docked as quick possible but the crews of both ran into some sort of trouble. Sent out the distress call before being killed, which is where Blue Team comes in.

Quickest and dirtiest thing I could come up with. Could use a lot of work too.


Check the Fall of Reach. Mainly, check the date Cortana started digging through files to get payback on Ackerson for rigging the Mark V test that John was in.

That is when she stumbled over the ship. That was when ONI isolated it from the station and deleted all records of it.

In an effort to maintain the secrecy of HYPODERMIC, the Prowler was removed from Reach's database after an intrusion into the ONI database by the AI Cortana

[Edited on 04.24.2011 4:56 PM PDT]

  • 04.24.2011 4:54 PM PDT

"What do you hear?"
"Nothing but the rain."
"Then grab your gun and bring in the cat."
"Boom, boom, boom!"

Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron
Check the Fall of Reach. Mainly, check the date Cortana started digging through files to get payback on Ackerson for rigging the Mark V test that John was in.

That is when she stumbled over the ship. That was when ONI isolated it from the station and deleted all records of it.

In an effort to maintain the secrecy of HYPODERMIC, the Prowler was removed from Reach's database after an intrusion into the ONI database by the AI Cortana


Ah ok. It's been a while since I've read through the TFoR.

Makes much more sense, Completely ignore my ramblings about Circumference and Gamma Station. XD

[Edited on 04.24.2011 5:25 PM PDT]

  • 04.24.2011 5:21 PM PDT


Posted by: kit_103
Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron
Check the Fall of Reach. Mainly, check the date Cortana started digging through files to get payback on Ackerson for rigging the Mark V test that John was in.

That is when she stumbled over the ship. That was when ONI isolated it from the station and deleted all records of it.

In an effort to maintain the secrecy of HYPODERMIC, the Prowler was removed from Reach's database after an intrusion into the ONI database by the AI Cortana


Ah ok. It's been a while since I've read through the TFoR.

Makes much more sense, Completely ignore my ramblings about Circumference and Gamma Station. XD


Likewise, nor have I read the re-release versions. But I remembered that detail.

Isn't it creepy how Cortana seeking revenge on Ackerson is indirectly what saved Chief's life at the battle of Reach?

If Chief hadn't have gone to Gamma station, then he would have died there like the rest.

  • 04.24.2011 5:36 PM PDT

Posted by: UL7IM4 G33k
And you can't say they haven't. This kind of argument is futile. What we should be discussing the likelihood and possibility of current events occurring as they did within the new time frame and that likelihood is many times slim or requires great alteration of cannon to accommodate.


No, I can't say that, but what I am saying is that claiming things one way or the other with the lack of evidence is foolish.

Not even ONI would risk the destruction of the human race for random interests.

Read the "Mona Lisa" in Halo Evolutions and then tell me that :P

Lets go through the first situation.

1) How? If the PoA was docked how is Red Team to be dropped from orbit?

2) Why? Why send all of your greatest fighters on an incredibly risky drop mission through a hot zone when you had enough time to distribute them across the surface before it hit the fan?


1). What makes you think that the Autumn was in dry dock in Aszod the whole time? There is nothing to indicate that it was, so it is more prudent to assume that Red Team was sent down in a Pelican and were forced to make a jump from it. Especially since there is a video on Waypoint with a short segment on Red Team's generator defense and landing.

2). Why do you say they had enough time? Things weren't truly dire at Reach until the second Covenant fleet (Fleet of Particular Justice) arrived on the 30th, and that was when Operation RED FLAG was canceled, after the second fleet arrived.

Again, you aren't reading what I'm typing. Beta had ONLY 300 Spatan III's. Tom stated that in training there was only 300 slots for them to fill. Thus, this means that if all 300 Spartan III's save for Tom and Lucy died in TORPEDO then Noble 6 was never a part of that 300 and therefore was never augmented. There is no room for Beta to have extras. Tom's quote makes sure of that.

I am reading what you say/type, however what you are saying is not right, and is refusing to acknowledge new canon information. I do not have GoO with me, so I cannot check information out properly, but from what I remember GoO was incredibly vague on the details of the SIII program and augmentations.

See, this argument has been bugging me alot. You keep telling me ONI can do something cause that's what they do and how they are as if that is evidence. It isn't. ONI doesn't just spend their days kidnapping people and finding crafty ways to do everything in complete secrecy. They are a group of people with ulterior motives and they will go about achieving those goals with the utmost efficiency. Kidnapping and non-existence isn't always their answer.

BTW, the pods were dropped out of slipspace, they did not travel through it on their own power. So the ship would have had to be reasonably close to the planet. What made it safe for them was the fact they didn't have to leave slipspace. Still you have yet to give me evidence beyond one piece of marketing and mounds of conjecture.


I never said they did or that it was always the answer, it is a logical conclusion to make that they would, or could, kidnap someone secretly and effectively make them completely vanish however, as they have done it several times before.

I never said they could get there on their own power, I knew they had to be dropped into Slipspace by a ship. Remember, I said that this wasn't something I actually thought, I merely said it was a possibility.

If you've read the books, you should know that augmentation wasn't the only potentially fatal thing in the program. Training is equally dangerous as is Onyx itself. Over the course of several years of training I am sure a good number of them either cracked mentally, were injured greatly or possibly even died during a training exercise.

None of the Spartans were ever able to manage killing each other during training, their trainers...maybe, but not each other. And the trainers wouldn't kill them either, no matter how much they roughed them up. I don't remember Onyx being a particularly dangerous place, no more dangerous than Reach, well until those Sentinels came along anyway. And the only Spartans we've ever heard of cracking in any way are two fo the ones who escaped in Homecoming, and then committed suicide when they met their clones. If any Spartans cracked, it would have been mentioned in some way somewhere.

A description of strength, height, weight, technology? Any of these would be helpful. Knowing about the potential of an enemy is just as good as knowing exactly what their capable of. Unfortunately, in First Strike the enemy and all details about them were a mystery.

because contact with Brutes had been minimal, it would not surprise me if Chief hadn't fought them before, even though, despite what you seem to wish to think, they were encountered on Harvest at the start of the war.

Yet, for some reason, it cannot send any communique? The ship should have been able to at least send a message to the UNSC even without its Slipspace drive. Halo Wars itself is a huge conundrum because while I agree that, specifically as an RTS, the game required many of those elements it could have easily been in an entirely different time period. But if what happens in-game is so easily disregarded as gameplay based then we could possibly say that in Reach the Spartan III's didn't ahve MJOLNIR nor did they have shields (seeing as Kat died despite having her armor on). Hell, perhaps they aren't even III's seeing as the game doesn't even state they are.

Even if it did send out a message, it would probably take the message almost as long the ship itself to return to UNSC space, the UNSC does not have instantaneous communication, even the messages launched via Slipspace are not instantaneous.
if you said that you would be wrong however, as it has been stated that Noble Team received the Mark V variant of Mjolner Armor. Also, IIRC, it was stated about Halo Wars that content that technology that shouldn't be there at that particular time was merely a gameplay element. Extra material for the game states that they are IIIs though, such as the bios and information regarding Noble Team released on this site.

We don't think, we KNOW. DIRECTLY CONFLICTING STATEMENTS about how long the battle of Reach took place. A group of soldiers that was originally stated as all KIA (the III's) with armor they SHOULD NOT HAVE. These are all DIRECT CONFLICTS with existing storyline. This isn't about "thinking" they don't fit but them actually not fitting.

Well, like it or not, new information regarding canon takes priority over the old and the games take precedence over the books, and no, this was not something Bungie instituted to excuse Reach, this has been in place for quite a while now.And what I said was people are on here -blam!-ing because they either don't like it and are taking the changes almost personally OR they think it doesn't fit, it's one of those two, or a mix of both coming from the people arguing against Reach.

It isn't about it not being the same. It is about it almost completely disregarding the book. I swear it is almost as if they themselves hadn't read the novel with how conflicting it truly is with both FoR and GoO. If anyone is sticking their fingers in their ears its you. I've heard every argument you have stated, asked questions about them and yet you insist on sitting here promising me that "oh, the Halo Bible and Bungie have all the info so in there it MUST make sense!". The fact is it does not.

*sigh* There are almost no conflicts between the game and the books, note I did not say that there weren't any I agree that it conflicts, there are conflicts between Reach and TFoR. However, people are blowing things completely out of proportion and are not even willing to search for ways that it all still works, they are sticking their fingers in their ears and simply not listening! I am perfectly willing to hear what those who do not agree with my opinion have to say, and I am likewise perfectly willing to concede ideas that are weak or agree with them if they say a particular theory is weak. No, you have completely missed what I was saying, what I am saying is that making blanket statements dealing in total absolutes about Halo's canon or story is absurd because we have not seen the Halo Bible, only Bungie and 343i have. Making such statements as "Reach broke canon" or "TFoR is not canon" (yes, I've seen comments like that) or "Reach non-canon" are absurd because we do not know what connections exist, if any, so making such claims as that are absurd. Saying, TFoR and Reach have conflicts between them is ludicrous though, because there are minor conflicts between them, but neither one is non-canon or breaking canon, and claiming that is silly because we don't know how the canon has changed since Halo's inception.

  • 04.24.2011 6:20 PM PDT

"Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind." - Albert Einstien

Posted by: OrderedComa
No, I can't say that, but what I am saying is that claiming things one way or the other with the lack of evidence is foolish.

Then this thread is pointless. I'm trying to tell you this isn't an argument because it is counterproductive in the topic. It is basically an argument against even having the discussion.


1). What makes you think that the Autumn was in dry dock in Aszod the whole time? There is nothing to indicate that it was, so it is more prudent to assume that Red Team was sent down in a Pelican and were forced to make a jump from it. Especially since there is a video on Waypoint with a short segment on Red Team's generator defense and landing.

2). Why do you say they had enough time? Things weren't truly dire at Reach until the second Covenant fleet (Fleet of Particular Justice) arrived on the 30th, and that was when Operation RED FLAG was canceled, after the second fleet arrived.

1) If you notice, the ship could only take of with the help of boosters. It would be EXTREMELY difficult to get that ship to land from space, if not impossible. This suggests that it was just completing its retrofit before taking off. Which means, yes, it was on the surface during the entire battle. That is unless they somehow landed a ship not rated for atmospheric flight on the planet and then had enough time to get it into a drydock and fit it with boosters to launch it again during a global Covenant invasion. Which seems more likely?

2) Why do I say they had enough time? WHY? They had TONS of time and even IF the battle wasn't "dire" do you think the UNSC would allow the II's to sit idly by in orbit and not assist in the defense of the second most important planet in the whole of the UNSC? This is why the time frame itself doesn't make sense when contextualized with the previous events. It destroys the rash actions and urgency of the entire battle and makes many of the decisions being made originally make little sense.


I am reading what you say/type, however what you are saying is not right, and is refusing to acknowledge new canon information. I do not have GoO with me, so I cannot check information out properly, but from what I remember GoO was incredibly vague on the details of the SIII program and augmentations.
HE SAYS IT RIGHT IN THE BOOK! So you are telling me that just because YOU don't have the book and cannot confirm it you're just going to stick your fingers in your ears and yell "la la la!"? Wonderful debate tactic. Is there even a purpose to debating with you? Or are you just going to shut down everything with the evidence of vague memory and mild conjecture?


I never said they did or that it was always the answer, it is a logical conclusion to make that they would, or could, kidnap someone secretly and effectively make them completely vanish however, as they have done it several times before.

Previous action does not prove that that action is the answer for unrelated events. Another fallacy.

Argumentum ad antiquitatem (the argument to antiquity or tradition). This is the familiar argument that some policy, behavior, or practice is right or acceptable because "it's always been done that way." This is an extremely popular fallacy in debate rounds; for example, "Every great civilization in history has provided state subsidies for art and culture!" But that fact does not justify continuing the policy.

I never said they could get there on their own power, I knew they had to be dropped into Slipspace by a ship. Remember, I said that this wasn't something I actually thought, I merely said it was a possibility.
Alright, but then please acknowledge the "possibility" of my arguments.

None of the Spartans were ever able to manage killing each other during training, their trainers...maybe, but not each other. And the trainers wouldn't kill them either, no matter how much they roughed them up. I don't remember Onyx being a particularly dangerous place, no more dangerous than Reach, well until those Sentinels came along anyway. And the only Spartans we've ever heard of cracking in any way are two fo the ones who escaped in Homecoming, and then committed suicide when they met their clones. If any Spartans cracked, it would have been mentioned in some way somewhere.
Death is only one thing on that list. And the GoO book does have an incident where two of the boys ALMOST killed each other in their first mission (alpha company). So yes, it is possible and no the book did not mention what happened to ANY of the washouts.

because contact with Brutes had been minimal, it would not surprise me if Chief hadn't fought them before, even though, despite what you seem to wish to think, they were encountered on Harvest at the start of the war.
Almost every ounce of information was given to MC and his Spartan II's the MOMENT he became involved with the Covenant. There is an entire section on it in FoR where they describe the Grunts and Jackals as well as give information on their technology.

Even if it did send out a message, it would probably take the message almost as long the ship itself to return to UNSC space, the UNSC does not have instantaneous communication, even the messages launched via Slipspace are not instantaneous.
if you said that you would be wrong however, as it has been stated that Noble Team received the Mark V variant of Mjolner Armor. Also, IIRC, it was stated about Halo Wars that content that technology that shouldn't be there at that particular time was merely a gameplay element. Extra material for the game states that they are IIIs though, such as the bios and information regarding Noble Team released on this site.

All your evidence is marketing material, isn't it? Not to mention it has already been discussed and found to not apply anything new to the argument. You are stating the obvious here. BTW, if they sent a slipsace message it would at least GET THERE. I doubt they'd choose to just sit idly and not be picked up by another UNSC ship by sending out communications to the nearest station, outpost or planet. You are again assuming no action in situations that demand action.

Well, like it or not, new information regarding canon takes priority over the old and the games take precedence over the books, and no, this was not something Bungie instituted to excuse Reach, this has been in place for quite a while now.And what I said was people are on here -blam!-ing because they either don't like it and are taking the changes almost personally OR they think it doesn't fit, it's one of those two, or a mix of both coming from the people arguing against Reach.
And no "new" information explains the discrepencies. The current answer is "because they do" and "in the Halo Bible...". BTW, this response in no way addresses the issues present. You merely just again tell me I'm wrong while stating the obvious hoping that it will eventually mean something.

*sigh* There are almost no conflicts between the game and the books, note I did not say that there weren't any I agree that it conflicts, there are conflicts between Reach and TFoR.
So what's the point?


However, people are blowing things completely out of proportion and are not even willing to search for ways that it all still works, they are sticking their fingers in their ears and simply not listening!

And you are the equivalent of that guy who walks up, tells you that you have no reason to be irritated and continues to tell you to stop being so without having a good reason for it. You are hoping I'll accept that Bungie knows what they are doing by stating over and over again that things are perfectly fine when they aren't. You have given no REAL evidince, ignored REAL evidence and consistently denied my opinion outright. And yet you sit here and accuse those without your opinion of not listening?


No, you have completely missed what I was saying, what I am saying is that making blanket statements dealing in total absolutes about Halo's canon or story is absurd because we have not seen the Halo Bible, only Bungie and 343i have.

If there is no point in arguing leave the thread. This part of your argument is void merely by the subject matter herin. I have stated this SEVERAL times yet you INSIST on continuing the "your wrong cause we don't know" BS.

Making such statements as "Reach broke canon" or "TFoR is not canon" (yes, I've seen comments like that) or "Reach non-canon" are absurd because we do not know what connections exist, if any, so making such claims as that are absurd. Saying, TFoR and Reach have conflicts between them is ludicrous though, because there are minor conflicts between them, but neither one is non-canon or breaking canon, and claiming that is silly because we don't know how the canon has changed since Halo's inception.
BTW, the rest of this argument is this:

Red herring. This means exactly what you think it means: introducing irrelevant facts or arguments to distract from the question at hand. For example, "The opposition claims that welfare dependency leads to higher crime rates -- but how are poor people supposed to keep a roof over their heads without our help?" It is perfectly valid to ask this question as part of the broader debate, but to pose it as a response to the argument about welfare leading to crime is fallacious. (There is also an element of ad misericordiam in this example.)

[Edited on 04.24.2011 10:12 PM PDT]

  • 04.24.2011 10:10 PM PDT

SPARTAN TRAP
asking for mods is not a smart idea.
no bumping.

what is your next game going to be Bungie?


Posted by: JDYeash937 MkII
Posted by: kippa
Oh and apparently small craft such as Seraphs and Banshees can exit slipspace without being crushed and destroyed now days. And Phantoms that (I'm assuming hard here) don't have any reinforcement.

ps: why'd i get a thanks? i am flattered, but unsure why.
In Contact Harvest, I'm quite sure Dabab's escape pod has a slipspace drive - he references only being able to make one more 'jump' in it, as opposed to 'trip'.
It MUST have a slipspace drive, page 190 says how the "pod exited its jump smack bang in the middle of a debris field."
I used to agree that small craft couldn't have slipspace drives, but this proves otherwise. As such, while banshees and seraphs could be fitted with SS drives, we still don't know how they could survive a jump. They wouldn't be crushed, IMO kippa - slipspace-normal transitions involve the craft exiting a reduced-volume space and entering a normal volume space. This would involve massive torsion and stresses on the surfaces of the craft - it also requires a massive deceleration from several lightyears per day to velocities of a few thousand kilometres per hour. This would add directional stresses front-to-rear in addition to entire-hull stresses. The craft are more likely to be shorn in half front-to-back upon exit.

A good one to add, Caboose - Jorge's involvement in Noble Team. He's an S-II that was not present for Halsey's briefing. Using the TFOR SPARTAN casualties, there are 3 too distant, 3 KIA and one WIA. Jorge can be neither of them, as all 3 KIA and WIA are accounted for.
There is also the fact that Halsey refuses to talk to Jorge when they meet under SWORD. Can anyone theorise on that? I've places to be unfortunately :(


what about in First Strike where they have to line the Spirit (Covenant Dropship, not the Phantom) with lead, because the (I don't really remember but I think it was deceleration) deceleration would have blown the ship apart if they didn't rein force it with lead.

  • 04.24.2011 10:50 PM PDT

In memory of those fallen in the defense of Earth and her colonies.

March 3, 2553


Posted by: privet caboose
Posted by: cameo_cream
Just thought of a plot hole i believe.

I haven't read FoR in a while so correct me if i am wrong.

To my knowledge Dr. Hasley had no knowledge of the SIII program until they were trapped underground with Kelly. This was obviously later confirmed when she saw Ackersons' handiwork first hand in GoO.

So seeing this as true. How would she have even known about Carter, Kat, Jun and Emile if she had no knowledge of the SIII program? (Saying if they did exist for a second).

I don't know the exact page number in FoR but i bet somebody can find it. Or at least quote me on this.


This error was BARELY excused thanks to Halsey's Journal. In it, she states that she believed Noble team to be from a rival project. Though she did recognize Jorge. She didn't believe them to be Spartan III's.


True. But we know Halsey to be the sort of person that will gain access to classified information, beyond her clearance. If she suspected a rival project, then how didn't she find out about this sooner?

  • 04.25.2011 5:12 AM PDT

Brains beats brawn get used to it

Fear the Red Comet

Variety is the spice of life.
Long live games.
Death to all fanboys.


Posted by: cameo_cream

Posted by: privet caboose
Posted by: cameo_cream
Just thought of a plot hole i believe.

I haven't read FoR in a while so correct me if i am wrong.

To my knowledge Dr. Hasley had no knowledge of the SIII program until they were trapped underground with Kelly. This was obviously later confirmed when she saw Ackersons' handiwork first hand in GoO.

So seeing this as true. How would she have even known about Carter, Kat, Jun and Emile if she had no knowledge of the SIII program? (Saying if they did exist for a second).

I don't know the exact page number in FoR but i bet somebody can find it. Or at least quote me on this.


This error was BARELY excused thanks to Halsey's Journal. In it, she states that she believed Noble team to be from a rival project. Though she did recognize Jorge. She didn't believe them to be Spartan III's.


True. But we know Halsey to be the sort of person that will gain access to classified information, beyond her clearance. If she suspected a rival project, then how didn't she find out about this sooner?


Because ONI did a surprisingly good job trying to compartmentalize everything. Combine that with the fact that Halsey was busy with other projects, and it becomes plausible that it falls under her radar.

Rereading the journal it turns out she actually stumbles upon the workings of the Spartan III project at least three times, but is unable to connect the dots because of ONI being too strict about it and being too busy with the AI project, rehabilitation of S-IIs, and MJOLNIR to divert time to it.

The first time was April 9, 2530. The entry was dedicated to how she is unable to contact or find out what happened with Mendez. She suspects something is up, but has nothing else to go on.

The next entry that is more a probable hint that it relates to the SIII project is the next journal entry dated at July 12, 2531 in which she notes that ONI has specifically set up software that would prevent Halsey herself from sneaking into their files. This makes her curious as to what they're hiding. Of course this could refer to any project, but given its proximity to the last (and next) journal entry as well as the year (the start of the SIII project) makes it likely it's another SIII reference mainly because the immediately entry that follows which is...

January 18, 2532. In that entry she noticed that "several Spartan II augmentation chemical precursors" were being shifted around to various ONI labs across at least three planets. This is a major entry because it's the first time in the journal she outright thinks that ONI could be working on a Spartan project without her guidance, but cannot make any further connections. She does confirm however that whatever is going on does not involve the Spartan II washouts she is trying to rehabilitate.

Another little hint mentioned in the journal was on February 20, 2551 when she noticed that the hospital ship, Hopeful, left on what seemed like shady circumstances. She attempted to get information from the Admiral in charge of the ship in the following journal entry when the ship returned, but got nothing. Of course we know through Ghost of Onyx that the Hopeful was used to augment the S-IIIs. Again, Halsey doesn't truly suspect the entire scope of the events and with good reason as none of them really seem connected from her point of view.

Finally on May 15, 2552 she stumbles upon Beta 5 info thanks to Kalmiya that deal with "service order transfers of existing Spartan II soldiers to highly classified non-Spartan II detachments". She came across a list of names involving the data and mentions that "one particularly obscene man" is at the top of that list. Given the nature of the SIII project it is highly likely that it is a reference to Ackerson. At this point I could guess that this particular journal entry was all Halsey needed to start piecing together clues as to the extent of this Spartan experiment would give further explanation as to why the SIII document and mention of MCOMDZ (or whatever the abriviation was, do correct me if you happen to know it) caught her eye when accessing Ackerson's files in First Strike.

Of course the real final bit is the entry following her actually seeing Noble Team, but since we're dealing with sooner I don't feel that there's need to add the details of that entry in this post.

  • 04.25.2011 2:58 PM PDT

In memory of those fallen in the defense of Earth and her colonies.

March 3, 2553


Posted by: StealthSlasher2

Posted by: cameo_cream

Posted by: privet caboose
Posted by: cameo_cream
Just thought of a plot hole i believe.

I haven't read FoR in a while so correct me if i am wrong.

To my knowledge Dr. Hasley had no knowledge of the SIII program until they were trapped underground with Kelly. This was obviously later confirmed when she saw Ackersons' handiwork first hand in GoO.

So seeing this as true. How would she have even known about Carter, Kat, Jun and Emile if she had no knowledge of the SIII program? (Saying if they did exist for a second).

I don't know the exact page number in FoR but i bet somebody can find it. Or at least quote me on this.


This error was BARELY excused thanks to Halsey's Journal. In it, she states that she believed Noble team to be from a rival project. Though she did recognize Jorge. She didn't believe them to be Spartan III's.


True. But we know Halsey to be the sort of person that will gain access to classified information, beyond her clearance. If she suspected a rival project, then how didn't she find out about this sooner?


Because ONI did a surprisingly good job trying to compartmentalize everything. Combine that with the fact that Halsey was busy with other projects, and it becomes plausible that it falls under her radar.

Rereading the journal it turns out she actually stumbles upon the workings of the Spartan III project at least three times, but is unable to connect the dots because of ONI being too strict about it and being too busy with the AI project, rehabilitation of S-IIs, and MJOLNIR to divert time to it.

The first time was April 9, 2530. The entry was dedicated to how she is unable to contact or find out what happened with Mendez. She suspects something is up, but has nothing else to go on.

The next entry that is more a probable hint that it relates to the SIII project is the next journal entry dated at July 12, 2531 in which she notes that ONI has specifically set up software that would prevent Halsey herself from sneaking into their files. This makes her curious as to what they're hiding. Of course this could refer to any project, but given its proximity to the last (and next) journal entry as well as the year (the start of the SIII project) makes it likely it's another SIII reference mainly because the immediately entry that follows which is...

January 18, 2532. In that entry she noticed that "several Spartan II augmentation chemical precursors" were being shifted around to various ONI labs across at least three planets. This is a major entry because it's the first time in the journal she outright thinks that ONI could be working on a Spartan project without her guidance, but cannot make any further connections. She does confirm however that whatever is going on does not involve the Spartan II washouts she is trying to rehabilitate.

Another little hint mentioned in the journal was on February 20, 2551 when she noticed that the hospital ship, Hopeful, left on what seemed like shady circumstances. She attempted to get information from the Admiral in charge of the ship in the following journal entry when the ship returned, but got nothing. Of course we know through Ghost of Onyx that the Hopeful was used to augment the S-IIIs. Again, Halsey doesn't truly suspect the entire scope of the events and with good reason as none of them really seem connected from her point of view.

Finally on May 15, 2552 she stumbles upon Beta 5 info thanks to Kalmiya that deal with "service order transfers of existing Spartan II soldiers to highly classified non-Spartan II detachments". She came across a list of names involving the data and mentions that "one particularly obscene man" is at the top of that list. Given the nature of the SIII project it is highly likely that it is a reference to Ackerson. At this point I could guess that this particular journal entry was all Halsey needed to start piecing together clues as to the extent of this Spartan experiment would give further explanation as to why the SIII document and mention of MCOMDZ (or whatever the abriviation was, do correct me if you happen to know it) caught her eye when accessing Ackerson's files in First Strike.

Of course the real final bit is the entry following her actually seeing Noble Team, but since we're dealing with sooner I don't feel that there's need to add the details of that entry in this post.


It makes sense, but for me? Its just one big coverup for the canon. (Which it kinda is).

Oh and im not sure if this is right but is it CPOMENDEZ you were looking for? That doesnt sound right to me anyway.

  • 04.25.2011 5:02 PM PDT

Almost all so called cannon problems can be explained by "oni covered it up"


Happy?

  • 04.25.2011 6:13 PM PDT


Posted by: Docterweegee
Almost all so called cannon problems can be explained by "oni covered it up"


Happy?

Bungie has done that already. That's what is annoying us.

  • 04.25.2011 6:33 PM PDT

Brains beats brawn get used to it

Fear the Red Comet

Variety is the spice of life.
Long live games.
Death to all fanboys.


Posted by: EchoGamer

Posted by: Docterweegee
Almost all so called cannon problems can be explained by "oni covered it up"


Happy?

Bungie has done that already. That's what is annoying us.


Who hasn't used that?

  • 04.25.2011 7:38 PM PDT

"You were weak... and gods must be strong."

Here's my say on the topics...

1) Alpha and Bravo Company S-IIIs

My sources: Halo Evolutions, Halsey's Notebook, Ghosts of Onyx

Halo Evolutions and Halsey's Notebook both explain further how Spartans were taken from their respective companies mere hours or days before the fatal operations began.

As to why Kurt and those he met with seemed to mention how all Spartans in the company died, it's entirely plausible that not everyone present knew of the relocation of a few select members (Noble squadmembers and HeadHunter squadrons)

~~~~~~~

2) Noble Ages

My sources: Ghosts of Onyx

While Ghosts of Onyx states they are largely 4, 5, 6, we know that there were a LOT of candidates to get from a gene pool only so much broader than the original Spartan-II candidates. It's not impossible to believe there were a few rare, older exceptions that were slipped into the program to fill all the slots the budget allotted for.

It would also explain why Carter was naturally the Noble Team leader- if one of the eldest (possibly THE eldest) in the company is significantly older, he commands respect and is naturally followed by his younger comrades. This is one of my more theoretical explanations, but it fits the bill.

~~~~~~~

3) MAC Cannons Above Reach

My Sources: TFoR, H:R

The Fall of Reach mentions there were 20 such SUPER MACS. Hmm... and they managed to coordinate fire to take out Covenant ships in the space battle.

Sounds to me like there aren't enough to cover the planet and they aren't proliferated enough to do so. So it's entirely possible that they're there... just that the LNoS and Corvettes were probably cowering on the opposite side of the planet from where the MACs were orbiting. That's what I'd do if massive doomsday weapons loomed in space that would tear my poor massive Supercarrier to shreds.

~~~~~~~

4) Pillar of Autumn

Sources: H:R, TFoR, Halsey's Journal

I think it's fair to say that this is perhaps one of the most perilous problems and exceedingly difficult to explain. However, there are instances where there may have been a chance... from what I've gathered, the PoA did an emergency drydock after letting loose Red Team and Blue Team and before picking John-117 and the comatose Linda up.

Honestly I'll either try and explain this one some other time or let you guys do the research on the times/dates of the final mission vs the book chapters, but I believe there were a couple moments where the PoA may have had a chance to slip in and drydock before vacating Reach. After all, that fragment of Cortana led to the discovery of Halo, and Halsey theorized at its importance... Keyes would have docked at her request if given a timeframe. I do believe that out of the timeframe windows open, there was one that was plausible except for the extremely small amount of time the PoA could have been docked.

So again, with a bit of date editing this could even become a plausible merge between the canon sources.

  • 04.25.2011 9:47 PM PDT

I started up the heated debate on whether the SPARTAN-II in the cryo tube near the end of Reach is really Linda.
I created the Moa XING avatar pic.
Also I earned the All Star nameplate with this submission to Week 14 All Stars http://www.bungie.net/images/News/Inline11/bwu_0415/art/likea boss.jpg

I just created a thread like this last week.
I actually found explanations for the errors.
Also notice that FoR had several canon errors in it that were retconned later. The Pillar of Autumn landing back on Reach is a simple retcon.
Here's the thread

  • 04.25.2011 10:05 PM PDT
  • gamertag: [none]
  • user homepage:

Deva Path


Posted by: DecepticonCobra

We are all going to get banned aren't we?


Posted by: ImmortalJoshua
I just created a thread like this last week.
I actually found explanations for the errors.
Also notice that FoR had several canon errors in it that were retconned later. The Pillar of Autumn landing back on Reach is a simple retcon.
Here's the thread


It is not a "simple retcon", majority of the events wouldn't have happened if the PoA had landed back.
Not to mention they were nearly out of the system when the covenant attacked.

  • 04.26.2011 8:42 AM PDT
  • gamertag: [none]
  • user homepage:

I might be wrong, but wasn't the operation on the Covenant processing plant not only a success, but two spartans made it out, Tom, and someone else, unless I am thinking of the prologue

  • 04.26.2011 8:44 AM PDT

Signatures are for squares.

Posted by: Zegrania
I might be wrong, but wasn't the operation on the Covenant processing plant not only a success, but two spartans made it out, Tom, and someone else, unless I am thinking of the prologue


You're correct. 296 or so Spartan III's from Beta company went on an operation at Pegasi Delta, and the only survivors were Tom and Lucy. (Four Spartan III's were lost in that off limits zone on Oynx. Which is where I personally believe Noble 5ix came from. )

  • 04.26.2011 12:48 PM PDT

"You were weak... and gods must be strong."


Posted by: privet caboose
Posted by: Zegrania
I might be wrong, but wasn't the operation on the Covenant processing plant not only a success, but two spartans made it out, Tom, and someone else, unless I am thinking of the prologue


You're correct. 296 or so Spartan III's from Beta company went on an operation at Pegasi Delta, and the only survivors were Tom and Lucy. (Four Spartan III's were lost in that off limits zone on Oynx. Which is where I personally believe Noble 5ix came from. )


I believe Noble 6, like any other member of Noble, was pulled out before the Company's devastating mission(s) took place.

My theory is N6 was a Headhunter of sorts, with the exception being that he went at it alone instead of having a partner.

  • 04.26.2011 4:35 PM PDT

"I may not be perfect, but always been true."

Posted by: Gamma 46

Posted by: privet caboose
Posted by: Zegrania
I might be wrong, but wasn't the operation on the Covenant processing plant not only a success, but two spartans made it out, Tom, and someone else, unless I am thinking of the prologue


You're correct. 296 or so Spartan III's from Beta company went on an operation at Pegasi Delta, and the only survivors were Tom and Lucy. (Four Spartan III's were lost in that off limits zone on Oynx. Which is where I personally believe Noble 5ix came from. )


I believe Noble 6, like any other member of Noble, was pulled out before the Company's devastating mission(s) took place.

My theory is N6 was a Headhunter of sorts, with the exception being that he went at it alone instead of having a partner.


Six was taken out of the company directly after training, and Kat, well she wasn't on Torpedo because of an injury she suffered in Operation Cartwheel.

  • 04.26.2011 4:36 PM PDT

"You were weak... and gods must be strong."


Posted by: RKOSNAKE
Posted by: Gamma 46

Posted by: privet caboose
Posted by: Zegrania
I might be wrong, but wasn't the operation on the Covenant processing plant not only a success, but two spartans made it out, Tom, and someone else, unless I am thinking of the prologue


You're correct. 296 or so Spartan III's from Beta company went on an operation at Pegasi Delta, and the only survivors were Tom and Lucy. (Four Spartan III's were lost in that off limits zone on Oynx. Which is where I personally believe Noble 5ix came from. )


I believe Noble 6, like any other member of Noble, was pulled out before the Company's devastating mission(s) took place.

My theory is N6 was a Headhunter of sorts, with the exception being that he went at it alone instead of having a partner.


Six was taken out of the company directly after training, and Kat, well she wasn't on Torpedo because of an injury she suffered in Operation Cartwheel.


Which still supports my theory- In fact almost reinforces it. He was probably yanked to be part of the Headhunter program.

  • 04.26.2011 4:39 PM PDT

dude, read halo.wikia.... it'd probably solve a LOT of ur canon problems... noble team was pulled out of alpha company just before operation prometheus.

perhaps unsc was too confident that they'd defeat the single carrier? they did have 20 mac stations and at least 1 smac if not more...

  • 04.26.2011 9:46 PM PDT


Posted by: Azn N Proud
dude, read halo.wikia.... it'd probably solve a LOT of ur canon problems... noble team was pulled out of alpha company just before operation prometheus.

perhaps unsc was too confident that they'd defeat the single carrier? they did have 20 mac stations and at least 1 smac if not more...



Huh? Not understanding your second part of the post.

  • 04.26.2011 10:27 PM PDT

Ok I understand some of everyone's points in this thread. But COME ON! Seriously? Half of you seem to have done your research, and I value that, but it's a fact that Bungie goes to stupid lengths to create the universe we all know and love in Halo. The level of detail is practically unrivaled in the gaming industry. The whole timeline spans from the Forerunners through Reach and the Halo rings. Quite possibly further in some unreleased canon that Bungie didn't think needed to see the light of day. So for the people slagging off Bungie's efforts. Back off. If you have so many problems with Bungie's storyline just email them if you care that much. How about YOU go and create a storyline spanning over 100,000,000 years??

Kthnksbye :)

  • 04.27.2011 6:53 AM PDT

Posted by: UL7IM4 G33K
1) If you notice, the ship could only take of with the help of boosters. It would be EXTREMELY difficult to get that ship to land from space, if not impossible. This suggests that it was just completing its retrofit before taking off. Which means, yes, it was on the surface during the entire battle. That is unless they somehow landed a ship not rated for atmospheric flight on the planet and then had enough time to get it into a drydock and fit it with boosters to launch it again during a global Covenant invasion. Which seems more likely?

2) Why do I say they had enough time? WHY? They had TONS of time and even IF the battle wasn't "dire" do you think the UNSC would allow the II's to sit idly by in orbit and not assist in the defense of the second most important planet in the whole of the UNSC? This is why the time frame itself doesn't make sense when contextualized with the previous events. It destroys the rash actions and urgency of the entire battle and makes many of the decisions being made originally make little sense.


1. Why would it be impossible for it to land with the same boosters? If they can lift it off the ground and keep it there 'til it can get off on its own, then why can't they be used to land the ship too? If indeed they were fitted onto the ship while it was still in space in order to allow it to land on the planet, then it would not take much time due to object in space being relatively if not totally weightless. And why should landing in drydock take all that long, it's just a matter of setting the ship down in its cradle.

2. No, I do not think the IIs would be sitting idly in orbit. I think they were helping down on Reach, Jun even mentions Red Team aiding with civilian evac. So obviously they weren't doing anything. And everything still seems pretty urgent to me. The fact that the UNSC stands no chance of pulling off even a loss that could be called a victory and there are still civilians and military personnel on the ground that need evac would seem like they'd be pretty desperate to buy any sort of time they could as quickly as they could. Before the second fleet arrived they probably could have pulled off a dignified loss and saved a great deal of the people on Reach. When the Fleet of Particular Justice arrived, they knew they were completely screwed and needed to buy more time, and that is what the SMACs were doing, they were giving them time.

HE SAYS IT RIGHT IN THE BOOK! So you are telling me that just because YOU don't have the book and cannot confirm it you're just going to stick your fingers in your ears and yell "la la la!"? Wonderful debate tactic. Is there even a purpose to debating with you? Or are you just going to shut down everything with the evidence of vague memory and mild conjecture?

-.- *sigh* NO! What I am saying is that I cannot properly argue this issue because I cannot check the exact wording and context of what you are talking about. So I cannot form a proper counter argument to your points without looking like a total moron. Try reading what I actually say next time and then think about it and not type up the first response that comes to mind.

Previous action does not prove that that action is the answer for unrelated events. Another fallacy.

Argumentum ad antiquitatem (the argument to antiquity or tradition). This is the familiar argument that some policy, behavior, or practice is right or acceptable because "it's always been done that way." This is an extremely popular fallacy in debate rounds; for example, "Every great civilization in history has provided state subsidies for art and culture!" But that fact does not justify continuing the policy.


Actually know, my argument is not a fallacy, it is a perfectly logical deduction. I am not saying they did do it because they kidnapped people in the past. I am saying it is a safe assumption to make going off of ONI's track record.

Death is only one thing on that list. And the GoO book does have an incident where two of the boys ALMOST killed each other in their first mission (alpha company). So yes, it is possible and no the book did not mention what happened to ANY of the washouts.

I remember the incident you're talking about, but I don't remember them almost killing each other. Remember though, that was before anyone had actually done any training or anything, before they were all Nakama (family). None of the Spartans would kill each other in training.

If the book didn't mention what happened to the supposed washouts (they weren't even really washouts, there just wasn't room for them in the program), then how do you know some them didn't become the Headhunters or other teams of SIIIs?

Almost every ounce of information was given to MC and his Spartan II's the MOMENT he became involved with the Covenant. There is an entire section on it in FoR where they describe the Grunts and Jackals as well as give information on their technology.

I know that, I've read the book. However reading about something, and actually encountering it are totally different things. Like I can read all I want to about lions and how best to fight or kill one, but that won't do me much good if I actually go out to deal with one. Same with the Brutes, they were not encountered much after Harvest so the UNSC would not have very much information on them.

All your evidence is marketing material, isn't it? Not to mention it has already been discussed and found to not apply anything new to the argument. You are stating the obvious here. BTW, if they sent a slipsace message it would at least GET THERE. I doubt they'd choose to just sit idly and not be picked up by another UNSC ship by sending out communications to the nearest station, outpost or planet. You are again assuming no action in situations that demand action.

For Halo Wars? No, I haven't used any marketing material in relation to Halo Wars in this argument at all (not that I know of at least >_> ).

The Slipspace message sending I'm talking about is the one the AI uses in GoO to send a message to Kurt. They're very expensive for the UNSC to make, and were incredibly rare, only Reach, Onyx, and IIRC Earth had them. The Spirit of Fire would most definitely not have one. And they might very well have mentioned something about sending a message at the end, I don't really remember as I haven't played Halo Wars in a while.

And no "new" information explains the discrepencies. The current answer is "because they do" and "in the Halo Bible...". BTW, this response in no way addresses the issues present. You merely just again tell me I'm wrong while stating the obvious hoping that it will eventually mean something.

Actually yes it does. Have you read Halsey's Journal (or talked to someone who has), it explains a lot of questions raised both with Reach and have been bothering the Halo community for some time. And I didn't say that new information explained things, I said that new information takes precedence over the old. Like if advertising released by Bungie for a new a Halo game said that the events of Halo were all a dream by a gigantic, floating, extra-galactic Soffish living amongst pimps at sea, then that would be canon, until some new information from higher up contradicted it.

And you are the equivalent of that guy who walks up, tells you that you have no reason to be irritated and continues to tell you to stop being so without having a good reason for it. You are hoping I'll accept that Bungie knows what they are doing by stating over and over again that things are perfectly fine when they aren't. You have given no REAL evidince, ignored REAL evidence and consistently denied my opinion outright. And yet you sit here and accuse those without your opinion of not listening?

Neither of us has presented "real" evidence, both of us have been arguing from our opinions and using our common sense to back our claims up. And I did not say people couldn't be dissapointed or angry, I said they were blowing things out of proportion and not willing to search for solutions or acknowledge plausible theories from other fellow Halo fans.

If there is no point in arguing leave the thread. This part of your argument is void merely by the subject matter herin. I have stated this SEVERAL times yet you INSIST on continuing the "your wrong cause we don't know" BS.

I never said there was no point in arguing either, I said that making blanket statements like "X Halo game/book breaks canon" are exceedingly foolish because we haven't seen the Halo Bible. I'm fine with arguing with people over supposed inconsistencies between Halo materials, but I draw the line at people calling anything non-canon unless it has specifically stated not to be canon, such as the Halo Legend episode Odd One Out for example, 343i has stated it was a non-canon "just for fun" spoof on Halo. No problem with saying that's non-canon, but saying Reach or TFoR are non-canon because they don't seem to match would be what I find issue with for the reasons listed above.

  • 04.27.2011 7:42 AM PDT