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This topic has moved here: Subject: Unexplainable errors in the Halo canon. (Spoilers)
  • Subject: Unexplainable errors in the Halo canon. (Spoilers)
Subject: Unexplainable errors in the Halo canon. (Spoilers)

"Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind." - Albert Einstien

Posted by: OrderedComa
1. Why would it be impossible for it to land with the same boosters? If they can lift it off the ground and keep it there 'til it can get off on its own, then why can't they be used to land the ship too? If indeed they were fitted onto the ship while it was still in space in order to allow it to land on the planet, then it would not take much time due to object in space being relatively if not totally weightless. And why should landing in drydock take all that long, it's just a matter of setting the ship down in its cradle.

2. No, I do not think the IIs would be sitting idly in orbit. I think they were helping down on Reach, Jun even mentions Red Team aiding with civilian evac. So obviously they weren't doing anything. And everything still seems pretty urgent to me. The fact that the UNSC stands no chance of pulling off even a loss that could be called a victory and there are still civilians and military personnel on the ground that need evac would seem like they'd be pretty desperate to buy any sort of time they could as quickly as they could. Before the second fleet arrived they probably could have pulled off a dignified loss and saved a great deal of the people on Reach. When the Fleet of Particular Justice arrived, they knew they were completely screwed and needed to buy more time, and that is what the SMACs were doing, they were giving them time.

1.If you notice, the boosters only got it off the ground. The main thrusters pushed it into orbit. A nudge if you will. Unfortunately the boosters on the POA cannot be directed downward to slow decent so it should be physically impossible for a ship of that design to land even with boosters such as the ones used to take off. Not to mention if it had boosters just for landing then there is a whole extra part to this story where they decided to put boosters on it in-orbit during a global invasion to allow it to land, then have more boosters attached to take off just for one damned AI fragment with really inconsequential information for the actual Halo storyline.

2.Then how were they dropped by the PoA if they were helping the entire time? They are either on the PoA in orbit to be dropped or on the surface helping. It seems you can't decide which is which. If they were dropped when the first Covenant cruiser was found then I doubt they would have needed to make such a dangerous descent nor would there be any actual hot zone to fly through. If they were dropped after Winter Contingency then they weren't helping until then. And no, while the urgency is there it is definitely not the same amount nor the same kind.

-.- *sigh* NO! What I am saying is that I cannot properly argue this issue because I cannot check the exact wording and context of what you are talking about. So I cannot form a proper counter argument to your points without looking like a total moron. Try reading what I actually say next time and then think about it and not type up the first response that comes to mind.
You gave me an argument despite not knowing. One that basically said that I was wrong. Don't try to make me the bad guy here when what you said is right here on the same page of the thread:

"I am reading what you say/type, however what you are saying is not right, and is refusing to acknowledge new canon information. I do not have GoO with me, so I cannot check information out properly, but from what I remember GoO was incredibly vague on the details of the SIII program and augmentations."

Actually know, my argument is not a fallacy, it is a perfectly logical deduction. I am not saying they did do it because they kidnapped people in the past. I am saying it is a safe assumption to make going off of ONI's track record.
No, it isn't a safe assumption. It using past actions to justify current ones taking place. That has no basis beyond "they did it before, why not again?". It is not evidence.

I remember the incident you're talking about, but I don't remember them almost killing each other. Remember though, that was before anyone had actually done any training or anything, before they were all Nakama (family). None of the Spartans would kill each other in training.

If the book didn't mention what happened to the supposed washouts (they weren't even really washouts, there just wasn't room for them in the program), then how do you know some them didn't become the Headhunters or other teams of SIIIs?

Mendez clearly states that if they had not stopped the fight they would have killed each other. You are also ruling out training accidents (which do happen). I doubt that all 400+ of the III's in Alpha and 370+ III's in Beta never had an accident. One that may have crippled one of the children.

That is a possibility, but the book itself does not leave room for that. At least not with Beta. Even Kurt's modified Spartans were only from Gamma and were still part of the original number of Gamma Spartans.

However reading about something, and actually encountering it are totally different things. Like I can read all I want to about lions and how best to fight or kill one, but that won't do me much good if I actually go out to deal with one. Same with the Brutes, they were not encountered much after Harvest so the UNSC would not have very much information on them.
Video logs, personal accounts, audio, extensive visual representations, etc. It wasn't just some biology book readout. And no, your incapability to kill the Lion is not because of the book, but you being unable to perfom the actions necessary. A Spartan is far different from that. If I tell you to shoot someone in the heart I doubt you'll do a good job of that in a real combat situation. But a Spartan? He'll use the skills at his disposal to make it happen. Same with the Covenant. ANY bit of information is helpful.

For Halo Wars? No, I haven't used any marketing material in relation to Halo Wars in this argument at all (not that I know of at least >_> ).
In general. The only evidence you have given here is links to marketing material.

And they might very well have mentioned something about sending a message at the end, I don't really remember as I haven't played Halo Wars in a while.
Still, assuming everything in Halo Wars is non-canon changes nothing, seeing as the general assumption is that the UNSC knows nothing of any of the events that transpired during Halo Wars. Either way, this isn't the main part of the argument. Halo Wars does break canon and it acknowledges that it does so.

Actually yes it does. Have you read Halsey's Journal (or talked to someone who has), it explains a lot of questions raised both with Reach and have been bothering the Halo community for some time. And I didn't say that new information explained things, I said that new information takes precedence over the old. Like if advertising released by Bungie for a new a Halo game said that the events of Halo were all a dream by a gigantic, floating, extra-galactic Soffish living amongst pimps at sea, then that would be canon, until some new information from higher up contradicted it.
I read it thoroughly and it only gets away with a single thing and that's the part about Cortana. Everything else is about 70%. And sure, that advertisement may be canon, but does that mean we have to be happy with its complete disregard for earlier canon? It isn't about canon or non-canon. Its about the current canon making sense with the original canon. Which it pretty much doesn't.

Neither of us has presented "real" evidence, both of us have been arguing from our opinions and using our common sense to back our claims up. And I did not say people couldn't be dissapointed or angry, I said they were blowing things out of proportion and not willing to search for solutions or acknowledge plausible theories from other fellow Halo fans.
You presented a .jpg from the Bungie Website. I not only typed out sections of the books but gave you page numbers. But I guess that isn't "real evidence". You dismissed them merely by not knowing the context of which I intentionally made sure was present.

I never said there was no point in arguing either, I said that making blanket statements like "X Halo game/book breaks canon" are exceedingly foolish because we haven't seen the Halo Bible.
So why discuss it?

I'm fine with arguing with people over supposed inconsistencies between Halo materials, but I draw the line at people calling anything non-canon unless it has specifically stated not to be canon, such as the Halo Legend episode Odd One Out for example, 343i has stated it was a non-canon "just for fun" spoof on Halo. No problem with saying that's non-canon, but saying Reach or TFoR are non-canon because they don't seem to match would be what I find issue with for the reasons listed above.
This is my issue, you entered the thread assuming that the issues with canon were figments of someones imagination, therefore our "supposed" broken canon doesn't REALLY exist. Yet I have given you constant proof of their existence but you still seem to think that they are only minor inconsistencies that MUST be explained in this fantastically amazing book that the devs have that miraculously explains all our problems. I agree that making any claims about it without reading the Halo Bible is pointless. But the POINT of this thread is discussing the inconsistencies of current canon, and unless I missed the publication of the Halo Bible it does not fall into that category and cannot be applied here.

  • 04.27.2011 12:04 PM PDT

If I may ask, how the heck does Halo Wars break canon? And how does it 'admit it'?

Don't bring gameplay elements such as the Spartans having shields into this.

Anyway, Coma is right, sometimes reading the replies against Halo Reach in this topic it comes off as "Halo Reach wasn't exactly what I wanted from the campaign, therefore I must rip it to shreds."

  • 04.27.2011 12:12 PM PDT

Posted by: L0V3LikeRockets
Posted by: Ageless Durandal
Also, you do realize that the books are "optional" canon and are over-ridden by the game canon, right?

This is not true, it has been confirmed by Bungie before that the books were just as much canon as the games have ever been, and the reaffirmed by 343i at comic-con.

Oh and I'm not sure if this counts, but one small thing to add to your list is on top of the PoA being on Reach in Halo: Reach is that John-117 is shown in cryosleep in the bay of the ship. Not only does this not make sense for him to be in cryosleep before the ship has even left, since in tFoR he is only put in cryosleep before they make the jump to slip-space; but also because why in the world would his cryotube be in the docking bay? That doesn't even make sense just using common sense, and thats not even where we start playing as Chief in CE.

And yes I realize this was meant more to be an Easter Egg, but hey its in the game, and its not as if its in background of gameplay way off in the distance or anything. All in all I think Reach just has to be considered non-canon. There are just way to many discrepancies for it to possibly make it all work out. Entertainment wise I very much enjoyed Reach, but canon wise it was very disappointing.

You guys think way way way way to linearly. He could have easily been moved from the docking bay to the room with the shield testing later, after they took off. It makes sense that he was in the docking bay since he was probably put on recently. And I'm sure Bungie has an explanation for all this stuff.

  • 04.27.2011 12:22 PM PDT

L0V3LikeRockets makes me lol. Taking an easter egg as a canon detail?

Oh wait, he admits it's an easter egg, yet still brings it up in a canon debate? It's an easter egg. Non-canon.

Fine, let's bring up the Elite hugging Johnson outside the PoA, after fighting over an assault rifle?

I mean, it's been stated No Covenant would pick up a human rifle even if it was fully loaded and their weapons were empty. They'd rather fight hand-to-hand. And then hugging Johnson instead of ripping him apart?

[Edited on 04.27.2011 12:26 PM PDT]

  • 04.27.2011 12:24 PM PDT

"Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind." - Albert Einstien

Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron
If I may ask, how the heck does Halo Wars break canon? And how does it 'admit it'?

Don't bring gameplay elements such as the Spartans having shields into this.

But that is exactly the point. It breaks canon but for good reason, to enhance game play. I don't mind that. If I did I would be in here ranting about Armor Abilities. I don't care especially since anything that occurred during Halo Wars never "really" happened in the case of the overall Halo plot. So regardless of how canon breaking the game really is it won't effect anything.

Does this make it a bad game? No. Is Reach a bad game? Nope. Do they break away from established canon? Yes, almost entirely. And that is what we are here to discuss. Not how to patch that up with what if's, maybe's or statements of ignorance. The main difference between the two is that Halo Wars changes nothing, Halo: Reach changes EVERYTHING, directly or indirectly.

[Edited on 04.27.2011 2:34 PM PDT]

  • 04.27.2011 2:31 PM PDT

Posted by: UL7IM4 G33K
1.If you notice, the boosters only got it off the ground. The main thrusters pushed it into orbit. A nudge if you will. Unfortunately the boosters on the POA cannot be directed downward to slow decent so it should be physically impossible for a ship of that design to land even with boosters such as the ones used to take off. Not to mention if it had boosters just for landing then there is a whole extra part to this story where they decided to put boosters on it in-orbit during a global invasion to allow it to land, then have more boosters attached to take off just for one damned AI fragment with really inconsequential information for the actual Halo storyline.

2.Then how were they dropped by the PoA if they were helping the entire time? They are either on the PoA in orbit to be dropped or on the surface helping. It seems you can't decide which is which. If they were dropped when the first Covenant cruiser was found then I doubt they would have needed to make such a dangerous descent nor would there be any actual hot zone to fly through. If they were dropped after Winter Contingency then they weren't helping until then. And no, while the urgency is there it is definitely not the same amount nor the same kind.


1. As I stated in my last post "if they can get it off the ground and hold it there, then why wouldn't the boosters to keep it up in the air while entering atmo be the same as the ones it uses to take off?" How do you know the information from the SWORD Base Artifact is inconsequential and completely unimportant? As a matter of fact, it is actually stated that it is important when Halsey hands it off to Noble Team, so yeah.

2. I didn't say they were helping the entire time, I said they weren't just doing nothing the entire time. Until they were ready to leave for Operation RED FLAG anyway, then they would have boarded the Autumn. Also, it's never stated when exactly the Spartans arrived in system, so some of them may very well have done nothing because of the time of their arrival.

You gave me an argument despite not knowing. One that basically said that I was wrong. Don't try to make me the bad guy here when what you said is right here on the same page of the thread.

I was saying you were wrong because you were not taking new information into account, that's what I meant by you being wrong, I was not saying your source was wrong in any way shape or form.

No, it isn't a safe assumption. It using past actions to justify current ones taking place. That has no basis beyond "they did it before, why not again?". It is not evidence.

I did not say it was evidence, I said it was logical conclusion to come to and to argue from. And evidence without the logic to back it up is useless, you can have all the evidence in the world for your beliefs, but if you can't formulate logical explanations (which are not evidence themselves) from your evidence, then it is rather useless to you.

Mendez clearly states that if they had not stopped the fight they would have killed each other. You are also ruling out training accidents (which do happen). I doubt that all 400+ of the III's in Alpha and 370+ III's in Beta never had an accident. One that may have crippled one of the children.

That is a possibility, but the book itself does not leave room for that. At least not with Beta. Even Kurt's modified Spartans were only from Gamma and were still part of the original number of Gamma Spartans.


Alright, I didn't remember the part, so I'll take your word for it. However, I still stand by my statement that Spartans would not knowingly kill each other during training as they grow into one big Nakama as time goes on.

Video logs, personal accounts, audio, extensive visual representations, etc. It wasn't just some biology book readout. And no, your incapability to kill the Lion is not because of the book, but you being unable to perfom the actions necessary. A Spartan is far different from that. If I tell you to shoot someone in the heart I doubt you'll do a good job of that in a real combat situation. But a Spartan? He'll use the skills at his disposal to make it happen. Same with the Covenant. ANY bit of information is helpful.

I never said it would just be written information. I didn't say my inability would be from the book, I said that even if I read up on how to hunt lions, even if I already knew how to hunt an animal, I would still not perform properly against one the first time. This is the same scenario with Chief. He'd never fought Brutes before and no matter what information in any form he got, he would still be at a disadvantage against them his first couple times fighting them.

In general. The only evidence you have given here is links to marketing material.

Your point being? Stuff in marketing for the games and books have just as much bearing on canon as the material they're advertising for.

Still, assuming everything in Halo Wars is non-canon changes nothing, seeing as the general assumption is that the UNSC knows nothing of any of the events that transpired during Halo Wars. Either way, this isn't the main part of the argument. Halo Wars does break canon and it acknowledges that it does so.

Yes, if Halo Wars was declared non-canon it wouldn't change much, imo at least, it gave some good insights into the war and more character to the UNSC and the Covenant. Um, no, Halo Wars does not break any canon, and no one has acknowledge it doing so.

read it thoroughly and it only gets away with a single thing and that's the part about Cortana. Everything else is about 70%. And sure, that advertisement may be canon, but does that mean we have to be happy with its complete disregard for earlier canon? It isn't about canon or non-canon. Its about the current canon making sense with the original canon. Which it pretty much doesn't.

I haven't read it so I'm not entirely sure what it covers. I only know what I've heard, and from what I've heard it did a quite adequate job patching things up. Like I know it patched up the supposed breach with Halsey knowing about Spartan IIIs in Reach.

You presented a .jpg from the Bungie Website. I not only typed out sections of the books but gave you page numbers. But I guess that isn't "real evidence". You dismissed them merely by not knowing the context of which I intentionally made sure was present.

Are you sure you're not confusing me with someone else? I didn't link to any pictures on here....not that I remember. Excerpts from the books are indeed real evidence, however you can't use just the books and games while ignore everything else.


So why discuss it?

This is my issue, you entered the thread assuming that the issues with canon were figments of someones imagination, therefore our "supposed" broken canon doesn't REALLY exist. Yet I have given you constant proof of their existence but you still seem to think that they are only minor inconsistencies that MUST be explained in this fantastically amazing book that the devs have that miraculously explains all our problems. I agree that making any claims about it without reading the Halo Bible is pointless. But the POINT of this thread is discussing the inconsistencies of current canon, and unless I missed the publication of the Halo Bible it does not fall into that category and cannot be applied here.


*sigh* *facepalm* No offense, but are you so dense that you cannot understand what I am saying or at least trying to get across?
There is a point to debating canon issues. If something doesn't seem to make sense then people should debate it and try to make sense of it, but claiming that the whole story is non-canon because one detail seems to conflict with something said before, or does contradict it, that is what should not be done.

I did not come in here assuming that anything brought up was a figment of someones imagination. I used the word supposed because not all things people say are breaches are even breaching canon at all, and not everyone agrees on what is an inconsistency even if they agree that Reach or any other piece of Halo media contradicts older information. Claiming two pieces of media contradict is one thing, claiming that it breaks canon is another entirely.

  • 04.27.2011 8:02 PM PDT

"Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind." - Albert Einstien

Posted by: OrderedComa
1. As I stated in my last post "if they can get it off the ground and hold it there, then why wouldn't the boosters to keep it up in the air while entering atmo be the same as the ones it uses to take off?" How do you know the information from the SWORD Base Artifact is inconsequential and completely unimportant? As a matter of fact, it is actually stated that it is important when Halsey hands it off to Noble Team, so yeah.

2. I didn't say they were helping the entire time, I said they weren't just doing nothing the entire time. Until they were ready to leave for Operation RED FLAG anyway, then they would have boarded the Autumn. Also, it's never stated when exactly the Spartans arrived in system, so some of them may very well have done nothing because of the time of their arrival.

1. Do you know how physics work? A booster that takes something from the ground into orbit only needs to overcome gravity's effect on it. Something that is entering the atmosphere not only has that force to contend with but all of its kinetic energy as well. For example if you have a stationary car in neutral, you can push it forwards probably by yourself depending on the car. But if that car is rolling backwards at 10 miles an hour I doubt you'll be able to stop it, let alone reverse its direction entirely.

And what significance does Cortana's fragment posses that changes anything? Almost all the events that lead up to Halo CE are completely unrelated to the information that the fragment contained.

2. In Fall of Reach, they were already on their way out of the system starting Red Flag when they were recalled to Reach. If not, then why was Red Flag aborted if not because of the attack on Reach? That was the original reason but in your version it wouldn't have been cancelled till attempting to do it in the middle of Reach being attacked.

I was saying you were wrong because you were not taking new information into account, that's what I meant by you being wrong, I was not saying your source was wrong in any way shape or form.
No, its just more wrong than your single .jpg on b.net from the marketing division. The point here isn't about their validity but the facts of them conflicting. Just because one is newer doesn't immediately make it not conflict with older canon.

I did not say it was evidence, I said it was logical conclusion to come to and to argue from. And evidence without the logic to back it up is useless, you can have all the evidence in the world for your beliefs, but if you can't formulate logical explanations (which are not evidence themselves) from your evidence, then it is rather useless to you.
On the other hand a conclusion with no basis isn't a conclusion at all, but an assumption. Even if your reasoning is flawless you have nothing that supports it.

Alright, I didn't remember the part, so I'll take your word for it. However, I still stand by my statement that Spartans would not knowingly kill each other during training as they grow into one big Nakama as time goes on.
Yes, but that amount of time isn't mere days or weeks. But months and years. And in months and years many things can happen.

I never said it would just be written information. I didn't say my inability would be from the book, I said that even if I read up on how to hunt lions, even if I already knew how to hunt an animal, I would still not perform properly against one the first time. This is the same scenario with Chief. He'd never fought Brutes before and no matter what information in any form he got, he would still be at a disadvantage against them his first couple times fighting them.
First, you are equating visual information to text based information which in and of itself isn't correct. Second, you are forgetting that information is power in the right hands. Spartans are the right hands.

Your point being? Stuff in marketing for the games and books have just as much bearing on canon as the material they're advertising for.
Order of Canon importance:
1. Games
2. Books
3. Extraneous Fiction (Halo Legends)
4. Marketing

The only weight your marketing material has over my book quotations is how new it is. And even then, they still conflict. This thread, which I have to say again, is not about which canon is better or more right but about if the new canon doesn't fit with the old.

I haven't read it so I'm not entirely sure what it covers. I only know what I've heard, and from what I've heard it did a quite adequate job patching things up. Like I know it patched up the supposed breach with Halsey knowing about Spartan IIIs in Reach.
No, it mentions here knowing about Spartans that weren't her Spartans. Still, she shouldn't have known anything about them since she really never came into contact with them nor was she looking for them. On top of that, in GoO she had not met them until she traveled to Onyx with the other Spartan II's. The book clearly indicates this was the first time she had heard anything about them. But I will say it didn't do a horrible job, it just wasn't a very GOOD job either.

Are you sure you're not confusing me with someone else? I didn't link to any pictures on here....not that I remember. Excerpts from the books are indeed real evidence, however you can't use just the books and games while ignore everything else.
I use what I know and have at my disposal. I'm not ignoring anything here. Sure I may be avoiding Headhunters but that is really the only part of the Canon I'm not familiar with beyond Cole Protocol and the newer book.

*sigh* *facepalm* No offense, but are you so dense that you cannot understand what I am saying or at least trying to get across?
There is a point to debating canon issues. If something doesn't seem to make sense then people should debate it and try to make sense of it, but claiming that the whole story is non-canon because one detail seems to conflict with something said before, or does contradict it, that is what should not be done.

Did I ever say anything was non-canon? No, I said it BREAKS canon. That is not synonymous with it being non-canon. I think you may be misinterpreting me here. I may have mentioned prefering certain parts of canon, but never did I once say that any part of Reach was non-canon, nor anything else.

I did not come in here assuming that anything brought up was a figment of someones imagination. I used the word supposed because not all things people say are breaches are even breaching canon at all, and not everyone agrees on what is an inconsistency even if they agree that Reach or any other piece of Halo media contradicts older information. Claiming two pieces of media contradict is one thing, claiming that it breaks canon is another entirely.
I don't understand that last part. Conflicting IS breaking canon. Especially if it is a rewriting of past events. That is called a retcon, the equivalent of a patch job to make things fit because the canon has broken into incoherent bits. After Halo Reach, the Halo storyline is in desperate need of such a patch job. But, as many others here feel, I think the game itself needs the patching and not the original novels. I spent many weeks reading into those novels and now what Bungie is asking me to do is repurchase and devote more time to relearning what I already know because they felt like making a story that didn't match up with what they had already done. Those who don't mind this are those who are far more tolerant of wasted time than I am.

  • 04.28.2011 3:21 AM PDT

If I may add to Halsey-S3 thing. She did know about them. In the Fall of Reach under castle base she finally uncovered some file folders labeled S3, and other things. When she went to Onyx she specifically was looking for them.

I've heard it mention that when she met the S3's on Onyx she went "This confirms what I suspected."

  • 04.28.2011 6:32 AM PDT

actually, believe it or not, the Spartans did have shielding in Halo Wars and its fully canonical. They were field test prototypes, and in Halsey's Journal, she states that she never knew how they worked because they had not returned. She also mentions Professor Anders...343 did admit that multiplayer gameplay elements like the AI upgrade were just for gameplay balance.

  • 04.28.2011 6:57 AM PDT


Posted by: N0madik2
actually, believe it or not, the Spartans did have shielding in Halo Wars and its fully canonical. They were field test prototypes, and in Halsey's Journal, she states that she never knew how they worked because they had not returned. She also mentions Professor Anders...343 did admit that multiplayer gameplay elements like the AI upgrade were just for gameplay balance.


I'm curious now, was that mentioned in Halsey's Journal? I've never heard that before, I'd always heard that the HW Red Team having shields was just a gameplay element.

  • 04.28.2011 8:45 AM PDT
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Posted by: DecepticonCobra

We are all going to get banned aren't we?


Posted by: N0madik2
actually, believe it or not, the Spartans did have shielding in Halo Wars and its fully canonical. They were field test prototypes, and in Halsey's Journal, she states that she never knew how they worked because they had not returned. She also mentions Professor Anders...343 did admit that multiplayer gameplay elements like the AI upgrade were just for gameplay balance.


what page was that? because i just fully read the section pertaining to harvest and the armor but didn't see anything like that. i did see her note that shields for Mark V could be possible but nothing on mark IV

  • 04.28.2011 9:15 AM PDT

Brains beats brawn get used to it

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Variety is the spice of life.
Long live games.
Death to all fanboys.


Posted by: N0madik2
actually, believe it or not, the Spartans did have shielding in Halo Wars and its fully canonical. They were field test prototypes, and in Halsey's Journal, she states that she never knew how they worked because they had not returned. She also mentions Professor Anders...343 did admit that multiplayer gameplay elements like the AI upgrade were just for gameplay balance.


I'm going to go with no mainly because the concept of shielding was not even remotely possible until the scientists cracked the secret behind Covenant shield tech, which, was some time after the events in Halo Wars.

Also because the lead developer from Ensemble outright stated that they added shields in as a gameplay mechanic to differentiate Spartans from other units and give them a gameplay twist because health regeneration didn't work well as a gameplay feature.

  • 04.28.2011 10:11 AM PDT

on the date January 7th, 2335, in the brackets, it says that [energy shield possible for Mark V? We have no evidence that the early prototypes were useful.] Maybe 343 wanted to incorporate some gameplay elements into canon? This quote doesnt 'exactly' point out that it's talking about Red team in Halo Wars, I just assumed in did because Red Team did have shields and it was in the year 2335, 3 years after The Spirit of Fire was declared "lost with all hands"

  • 04.28.2011 11:39 AM PDT

i could be wrong

  • 04.28.2011 11:49 AM PDT

Don't be silly. You're not wrong because nobody is agreeing with you, you're wrong because your points are weak and poorly supported. The fact that people disagree with you is a symptom of being wrong, not the cause or the proof of it. Canary in the coal mine, so to speak.

I have a very, very small continuity error to contribute, though it's probably not noteworthy enough to add to the OP.

In Halo Legends short The Package, there is an Elite wearing Assault-harness armor under the command of the Shipmaster during the bridge scenes. However Sangheili Assault armor was 'banned' for Elite usage by the prophets for being too scary, LOL. Thus use of the Assault armor did not resume until the secession of the Sangheili from the covenant.

This is also kind of inconsistent since some of the Elite armor sets in Reach (Ultra, Spec Ops, etc.) are debatably much, much scarier than Assault. (I for one had the -blam!- scared out of me by Ultras in my first time through the Reach campaign on a high difficulty).

  • 04.28.2011 12:30 PM PDT
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Posted by: N0madik2
actually, believe it or not, the Spartans did have shielding in Halo Wars and its fully canonical. They were field test prototypes, and in Halsey's Journal, she states that she never knew how they worked because they had not returned. She also mentions Professor Anders...343 did admit that multiplayer gameplay elements like the AI upgrade were just for gameplay balance.

I've never heard that. Ever. The spartans having shields was for gameplay. Well specifically it was a development oversight. Emsemble didn't realize the spartans didn't have shields during that time and didn't have time to remove them after they found out so they came up with a half assed explanation to get around it.

  • 04.28.2011 12:44 PM PDT

"Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind." - Albert Einstien

Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron
If I may add to Halsey-S3 thing. She did know about them. In the Fall of Reach under castle base she finally uncovered some file folders labeled S3, and other things. When she went to Onyx she specifically was looking for them.

I've heard it mention that when she met the S3's on Onyx she went "This confirms what I suspected."

I don't recall it being mentioned in Fall of Reach but I could be wrong. Although it could also be another retcon with a more recently published book (unfortunately my copy of FoR is MIA at the moment so I cannot check).

  • 04.28.2011 12:47 PM PDT

Brains beats brawn get used to it

Fear the Red Comet

Variety is the spice of life.
Long live games.
Death to all fanboys.


Posted by: Nameless Oracle

Posted by: N0madik2
actually, believe it or not, the Spartans did have shielding in Halo Wars and its fully canonical. They were field test prototypes, and in Halsey's Journal, she states that she never knew how they worked because they had not returned. She also mentions Professor Anders...343 did admit that multiplayer gameplay elements like the AI upgrade were just for gameplay balance.

I've never heard that. Ever. The spartans having shields was for gameplay. Well specifically it was a development oversight. Emsemble didn't realize the spartans didn't have shields during that time and didn't have time to remove them after they found out so they came up with a half assed explanation to get around it.


Ensemble knew. The original Spartan models had a regenerative health feature instead, but they felt that it wasn't a clear and iconic enough feature for the Spartan units to posses, hence why they put in shields. It was always for gameplay, and it wasn't an 'oversight' it was intentional.

  • 04.28.2011 12:53 PM PDT

"What do you hear?"
"Nothing but the rain."
"Then grab your gun and bring in the cat."
"Boom, boom, boom!"

Posted by: GEOFORM 187
In Halo Legends short The Package, there is an Elite wearing Assault-harness armor under the command of the Shipmaster during the bridge scenes. However Sangheili Assault armor was 'banned' for Elite usage by the prophets for being too scary, LOL. Thus use of the Assault armor did not resume until the secession of the Sangheili from the covenant.


It's just artistic license and holds no bearing on the canon. Same way with Blue Team's armor and how it resembles the Mark VI in a way.

  • 04.28.2011 1:04 PM PDT


Posted by: UL7IM4 G33K
Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron
If I may add to Halsey-S3 thing. She did know about them. In the Fall of Reach under castle base she finally uncovered some file folders labeled S3, and other things. When she went to Onyx she specifically was looking for them.

I've heard it mention that when she met the S3's on Onyx she went "This confirms what I suspected."

I don't recall it being mentioned in Fall of Reach but I could be wrong. Although it could also be another retcon with a more recently published book (unfortunately my copy of FoR is MIA at the moment so I cannot check).


I don't have the newer version either. But I remember something about her, in Castle base, finding a file folder labeled "S3" with the medical files of all the Spartan IIs. and something about Mendez.

  • 04.28.2011 9:48 PM PDT

"Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind." - Albert Einstien

Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron
I don't have the newer version either. But I remember something about her, in Castle base, finding a file folder labeled "S3" with the medical files of all the Spartan IIs. and something about Mendez.

I think I recall something like that. But do you remember when she found it? Was it during the battle or beforehand?

  • 04.28.2011 10:39 PM PDT

Brains beats brawn get used to it

Fear the Red Comet

Variety is the spice of life.
Long live games.
Death to all fanboys.


Posted by: UL7IM4 G33K
Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron
I don't have the newer version either. But I remember something about her, in Castle base, finding a file folder labeled "S3" with the medical files of all the Spartan IIs. and something about Mendez.

I think I recall something like that. But do you remember when she found it? Was it during the battle or beforehand?


It was after the main battle when she and the remnants of Red Team hide inside Castle Base. That scene remains the same in the reissue. She goes through files for Kelly's operation and stumbles across crossover information that Ackerson has. It interests her and she starts peaking through files and stumbles upon the SIII file which had Mendez's name within it though it was abbrivated to something along the lines of CPOMDZ or something like that.

In any case the info uncovers there leads her to Onyx.

  • 04.28.2011 11:11 PM PDT

"Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind." - Albert Einstien

Posted by: StealthSlasher2
It was after the main battle when she and the remnants of Red Team hide inside Castle Base. That scene remains the same in the reissue. She goes through files for Kelly's operation and stumbles across crossover information that Ackerson has. It interests her and she starts peaking through files and stumbles upon the SIII file which had Mendez's name within it though it was abbrivated to something along the lines of CPOMDZ or something like that.

In any case the info uncovers there leads her to Onyx.

If that is the case then that means she still shouldn't have known about Noble.

  • 04.29.2011 2:13 AM PDT


Posted by: UL7IM4 G33K
Posted by: StealthSlasher2
It was after the main battle when she and the remnants of Red Team hide inside Castle Base. That scene remains the same in the reissue. She goes through files for Kelly's operation and stumbles across crossover information that Ackerson has. It interests her and she starts peaking through files and stumbles upon the SIII file which had Mendez's name within it though it was abbrivated to something along the lines of CPOMDZ or something like that.

In any case the info uncovers there leads her to Onyx.

If that is the case then that means she still shouldn't have known about Noble.


All she knew was it wasn't her Spartans. Simply proof that her suspicions about the resource transfers were correct in a way. Then she found those files, went to Onyx and knew for sure about the Spartan IIIs. I think in Ghosts of Onyx she talks about trying to save the new Spartans before all they know is war.

  • 04.29.2011 2:19 AM PDT

Brains beats brawn get used to it

Fear the Red Comet

Variety is the spice of life.
Long live games.
Death to all fanboys.


Posted by: UL7IM4 G33K
Posted by: StealthSlasher2
It was after the main battle when she and the remnants of Red Team hide inside Castle Base. That scene remains the same in the reissue. She goes through files for Kelly's operation and stumbles across crossover information that Ackerson has. It interests her and she starts peaking through files and stumbles upon the SIII file which had Mendez's name within it though it was abbrivated to something along the lines of CPOMDZ or something like that.

In any case the info uncovers there leads her to Onyx.

If that is the case then that means she still shouldn't have known about Noble.


She didn't know about Noble or the IIIs in general. She just suspected the existence of other Spartans without learning the scope of the project. See my post on the previous page about the journal entries in which she noticed ONI doing strange things involving Spartan records and chemicals used in Spartan augmentations.

  • 04.29.2011 2:44 AM PDT