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This topic has moved here: Subject: Unexplainable errors in the Halo canon. (Spoilers)
  • Subject: Unexplainable errors in the Halo canon. (Spoilers)
Subject: Unexplainable errors in the Halo canon. (Spoilers)

Signatures are for squares.

Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron

Posted by: UL7IM4 G33K
Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron
If I may add to Halsey-S3 thing. She did know about them. In the Fall of Reach under castle base she finally uncovered some file folders labeled S3, and other things. When she went to Onyx she specifically was looking for them.

I've heard it mention that when she met the S3's on Onyx she went "This confirms what I suspected."

I don't recall it being mentioned in Fall of Reach but I could be wrong. Although it could also be another retcon with a more recently published book (unfortunately my copy of FoR is MIA at the moment so I cannot check).


I don't have the newer version either. But I remember something about her, in Castle base, finding a file folder labeled "S3" with the medical files of all the Spartan IIs. and something about Mendez.


That happens in First Strike, not Fall of Reach.

  • 04.29.2011 3:29 AM PDT


Posted by: privet caboose
Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron

Posted by: UL7IM4 G33K
Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron
If I may add to Halsey-S3 thing. She did know about them. In the Fall of Reach under castle base she finally uncovered some file folders labeled S3, and other things. When she went to Onyx she specifically was looking for them.

I've heard it mention that when she met the S3's on Onyx she went "This confirms what I suspected."

I don't recall it being mentioned in Fall of Reach but I could be wrong. Although it could also be another retcon with a more recently published book (unfortunately my copy of FoR is MIA at the moment so I cannot check).


I don't have the newer version either. But I remember something about her, in Castle base, finding a file folder labeled "S3" with the medical files of all the Spartan IIs. and something about Mendez.


That happens in First Strike, not Fall of Reach.


It's still during/directly after the battle of Reach.

  • 04.29.2011 5:36 AM PDT

why the hell do people dont get it??

GAMES = CANON
BOOKS AND OTHER STUFF = NOT! CANON

  • 04.29.2011 6:33 AM PDT
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Posted by: kevboard
BOOKS AND OTHER STUFF = NOT! CANON

Prove it.

  • 04.29.2011 6:36 AM PDT


Posted by: kevboard
why the hell do people dont get it??

GAMES = CANON
BOOKS AND OTHER STUFF = NOT! CANON


Because what you said is wrong.

Games = canon.
Books = canon.

Games are higher on the priority list, but they are not the only canon. If so, it'd be a very, very dull universe lore wise.

  • 04.29.2011 6:49 AM PDT
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Deva Path


Posted by: DecepticonCobra

We are all going to get banned aren't we?


Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron

Posted by: kevboard
why the hell do people dont get it??

GAMES = CANON
BOOKS AND OTHER STUFF = NOT! CANON


Because what you said is wrong.

Games = canon.
Books = canon.

Games are higher on the priority list, but they are not the only canon. If so, it'd be a very, very dull universe lore wise.


meh not necessarily.

Games>books when the games are close to "perfect" as can be with little or very minor canonical errors. Examples are Halowars,Halo CE, Halo 2, Halo 3 and Halo ODST.

While they all have errors none of the games have serouse errors that contradicts the established canon with the current retconned material.

Games do not > books when they direct several or major canonical situations in the established canon, examples include Halo:Reach.

Due to it having errors that contradict what we already know we then discuss which one should be followed/allowed in which the general conses has placed the novel over the book as halsey journal and the game itself fail to explain every change in detail.

  • 04.29.2011 10:21 AM PDT

Posted by: UL7IM4 G33K
1. Do you know how physics work? A booster that takes something from the ground into orbit only needs to overcome gravity's effect on it. Something that is entering the atmosphere not only has that force to contend with but all of its kinetic energy as well. For example if you have a stationary car in neutral, you can push it forwards probably by yourself depending on the car. But if that car is rolling backwards at 10 miles an hour I doubt you'll be able to stop it, let alone reverse its direction entirely.

And what significance does Cortana's fragment posses that changes anything? Almost all the events that lead up to Halo CE are completely unrelated to the information that the fragment contained.

2. In Fall of Reach, they were already on their way out of the system starting Red Flag when they were recalled to Reach. If not, then why was Red Flag aborted if not because of the attack on Reach? That was the original reason but in your version it wouldn't have been cancelled till attempting to do it in the middle of Reach being attacked.


My understanding of physics is perfectly fine. The boosters would act very much like the parachutes used on the old Saturn V type rockets the astronauts used in the 60s. The only difference being that they're rockets attached to the lower side of the ship instead of a parachute issuing from the top.

We can only guess right now, but not knowing does not mean it is unimportant, and there nothing introduced to Halo that is seemingly unimportant or disconnected from the story that has not been left unanswered yet. I am perfectly willing to wait and see what comes up later and be satisfied now with the statement by Halsey that the information is a game changer just as important as the invention of the conical bullet and FTL travel.

2. And there is nothing wrong with that. Until the second flet arrived on the 30th the UNSC could have beaten the Covenant back and possibly won the battle, sending the Spartans out on RED FLAG would not have hindered them in anyway significant, especially since they had several SIII teams such as Noble as their disposal who were just about as good as the SIIs. And then they're preparing to leave when Fermion Station detects the Fleet of Particular Justice, and all ships are recalled to Reach. And remember, RED FLAG was not truly scrapped until the Spartans chose to head to the Generators and Reach Station Gamma.

No, its just more wrong than your single .jpg on b.net from the marketing division. The point here isn't about their validity but the facts of them conflicting. Just because one is newer doesn't immediately make it not conflict with older canon.

What .jpg are the you talking about?!? I haven't linked any images, not that I remember, so please inform me of what the hell you're talking about, please.

You're missing the point, if new information conflicts with older information, the new information is what is regarded as valid canon and the older information is either discarded or tweaked to fit in with the new.

Yes, but that amount of time isn't mere days or weeks. But months and years. And in months and years many things can happen.

That is true, but Spartans actually killing each other is not one of them.

First, you are equating visual information to text based information which in and of itself isn't correct. Second, you are forgetting that information is power in the right hands. Spartans are the right hands

I am not really equating them at all. Visual information will be slightly more helpful than written, however neither one can compare to actual experience. And no matter what you've read or watched or how much you have done so you will be at a slight disadvantage when first encountering it. Spartans may be super-human, but they are still human and bound by all human limitations in some way or another.

Order of Canon importance:
1. Games
2. Books
3. Extraneous Fiction (Halo Legends)
4. Marketing

The only weight your marketing material has over my book quotations is how new it is. And even then, they still conflict. This thread, which I have to say again, is not about which canon is better or more right but about if the new canon doesn't fit with the old.


And I've already stated, multiple times in fact, that the new canon outranks the old, meaning that when it comes to conflicts between sources (unless it's a just for fun sort of thing like Odd One Out) released by the developer, or those with ties to them, then the winner of the contention is the new information. New canon does not have to agree with the old because this system is in place. Like for instance in everything after TFoR it was said the Elites and Hunters had been encountered throughout the war, and until the reprint of TFoR, this did not agree with what it said; yet it was the golden standard because it was newer information.

No, it mentions here knowing about Spartans that weren't her Spartans. Still, she shouldn't have known anything about them since she really never came into contact with them nor was she looking for them. On top of that, in GoO she had not met them until she traveled to Onyx with the other Spartan II's. The book clearly indicates this was the first time she had heard anything about them. But I will say it didn't do a horrible job, it just wasn't a very GOOD job either.

From what I've heard about the Journal it never says outright that Halsey knew about other Spartans, until she met Noble Team, and was merely entertaining the suspiscion due to shipments of augmentation supplies and the brief and unexplainable disappearance of that UNSC medical ship. Actually Halsey knew outright what she'd find at Onyx, other Spartans created by Ackerson using her research.

Did I ever say anything was non-canon? No, I said it BREAKS canon. That is not synonymous with it being non-canon. I think you may be misinterpreting me here. I may have mentioned prefering certain parts of canon, but never did I once say that any part of Reach was non-canon, nor anything else.

I am sorry, I am not really trying to imply that you are saying Reach is non-canon. It just so happened to be the argument I used because many of the other people who find fault with Reach say it is non-canon.

I realize the difference, but I do not think either one is a good claim to make.

I don't understand that last part. Conflicting IS breaking canon. Especially if it is a rewriting of past events. That is called a retcon, the equivalent of a patch job to make things fit because the canon has broken into incoherent bits. After Halo Reach, the Halo storyline is in desperate need of such a patch job. But, as many others here feel, I think the game itself needs the patching and not the original novels. I spent many weeks reading into those novels and now what Bungie is asking me to do is repurchase and devote more time to relearning what I already know because they felt like making a story that didn't match up with what they had already done. Those who don't mind this are those who are far more tolerant of wasted time than I am.

I disagree, I do not think conflicting information is necessarily a canon break, because we don't have all the puzzle pieces or the whole picture. Conflicting events can break canon, and that is where a retcon is needed. However, I do not think this is the scenario with Reach. I do not think it breaks canon, because all of the events in the account of the Battle of Reach in TFoR can and still do happen, and on the dates they are on in the book too.

  • 05.01.2011 2:26 PM PDT

"Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind." - Albert Einstien

Posted by: OrderedComa
My understanding of physics is perfectly fine. The boosters would act very much like the parachutes used on the old Saturn V type rockets the astronauts used in the 60s. The only difference being that they're rockets attached to the lower side of the ship instead of a parachute issuing from the top.

Adding in drag is not the same thing as counter-thrust. It is about surface area. A parachute can slow down a landing pod by having a large surface area that catches a sufficient amount of air. A thruster on the other hand would have to produce enough force not only to slow the thing down but to land it. And remember, the parachutes on landing pods allowed the pod to land in the ocean. The Autumn would have to perform something along the lines of a Shuttle landing and the Shuttle uses parachutes to slow it on the runway, not to slow its descent.

We can only guess right now, but not knowing does not mean it is unimportant, and there nothing introduced to Halo that is seemingly unimportant or disconnected from the story that has not been left unanswered yet. I am perfectly willing to wait and see what comes up later and be satisfied now with the statement by Halsey that the information is a game changer just as important as the invention of the conical bullet and FTL travel.
Not knowing means that that there is no reason to assume. Yes, it may be important but how or why is a mystery. Assuming that it has any importance is premature. If the original story remains unaffected whatever the information is will have been unimportant in regards to the main halo storyline. IF it remains unaffected.

2. And there is nothing wrong with that. Until the second flet arrived on the 30th the UNSC could have beaten the Covenant back and possibly won the battle, sending the Spartans out on RED FLAG would not have hindered them in anyway significant, especially since they had several SIII teams such as Noble as their disposal who were just about as good as the SIIs. And then they're preparing to leave when Fermion Station detects the Fleet of Particular Justice, and all ships are recalled to Reach. And remember, RED FLAG was not truly scrapped until the Spartans chose to head to the Generators and Reach Station Gamma.
I doubt that having a Covenant carrier appear out of nowhere would get the reaction "Naw, we got this!" from the UNSC.

What .jpg are the you talking about?!? I haven't linked any images, not that I remember, so please inform me of what the hell you're talking about, please.
I'm sorry if you aren't the one who posted it. I'm referring to an image on the Halo Reach section of this site that is an excerpt from Kurt's journal or something.

You're missing the point, if new information conflicts with older information, the new information is what is regarded as valid canon and the older information is either discarded or tweaked to fit in with the new.
I understand that. But does that change the fact the new information DOESN'T FIT? Can we not discuss the fact they don't fit and not assume that the errors present will just miraculously fix themselves down the line? What about the fact the new information does, as you say, "discard" or completely disregards old canon? Another thing this thread is about. Now you are just contradicting yourself seeing as earlier you were saying that they don't conflict and don't disregard each other yet here you are saying they do.

That is true, but Spartans actually killing each other is not one of them.
Prove it. Assumptions are assumptions, not facts.

I am not really equating them at all. Visual information will be slightly more helpful than written, however neither one can compare to actual experience. And no matter what you've read or watched or how much you have done so you will be at a slight disadvantage when first encountering it. Spartans may be super-human, but they are still human and bound by all human limitations in some way or another.
Visual information can be MOUNDS more helpful. Sure they aren't experience but hell, would you rather go into a warzone not knowing what it looks like or what your up against? Cause you are essentially saying that training someone for X environment is futile unless you put them there.

And I've already stated, multiple times in fact, that the new canon outranks the old, meaning that when it comes to conflicts between sources (unless it's a just for fun sort of thing like Odd One Out) released by the developer, or those with ties to them, then the winner of the contention is the new information. New canon does not have to agree with the old because this system is in place. Like for instance in everything after TFoR it was said the Elites and Hunters had been encountered throughout the war, and until the reprint of TFoR, this did not agree with what it said; yet it was the golden standard because it was newer information.
THIS IS NOT ABOUT WHICH IS RIGHT! ITS ABOUT IF IT MAKES SENSE! DO YOU NOT GET IT? You seem to keep thinking that I'm arguing that new canon is WRONG. I'm not. I am saying it DOESN'T FIT. And it doesn't. Even if the new canon is more right it still doesn't mix with the old canon well. How hard headed can you possibly be?

If I gave you a book where it said the chicken crossed the road. And then published another book that stated that a man saw the chicken crossing the stream. Just because the newer book is the latest form of canon, would you not ask why the chicken is suddenly crossing a stream and not a road? That is what this thread is in essence! Yet you seem to think its about old canon being more right than new canon.

From what I've heard about the Journal it never says outright that Halsey knew about other Spartans, until she met Noble Team, and was merely entertaining the suspiscion due to shipments of augmentation supplies and the brief and unexplainable disappearance of that UNSC medical ship. Actually Halsey knew outright what she'd find at Onyx, other Spartans created by Ackerson using her research.
Yes, which she found AFTER the battle of Reach in the book First Strike. Now we can make this confliction count add up to THREE books.

I am sorry, I am not really trying to imply that you are saying Reach is non-canon. It just so happened to be the argument I used because many of the other people who find fault with Reach say it is non-canon.

I realize the difference, but I do not think either one is a good claim to make.

If we can't make claims then this thread is pointless. This who thread is about the FACTS the canon doesn't add up. Not the if, might be or could be's of future canon and retcons.

I disagree, I do not think conflicting information is necessarily a canon break, because we don't have all the puzzle pieces or the whole picture. Conflicting events can break canon, and that is where a retcon is needed. However, I do not think this is the scenario with Reach. I do not think it breaks canon, because all of the events in the account of the Battle of Reach in TFoR can and still do happen, and on the dates they are on in the book too.
Again, read above. If you assume the whole puzzle isn't present then you have no reason to be in this thread. We all understand the puzzle pieces aren't there. But currently the puzzle given has pieces that don't fit with each other and that is what we are discussing. The fact that they don't fit. So again, I repeat myself, stop using "we don't know the whole picture" as an argument in this thread. It is entirely counterproductive.

  • 05.01.2011 6:19 PM PDT

Um, I'll point out that me, Coma, and I believe cobra (if he's been in this thread) have pointed out things that have been blown out of proportion and how it could work. Near every time (If memory is right) the statements have been ignored/disregarded.

If we cannot accept that things change over time, then they might as well stop releasing halo lore information.

  • 05.01.2011 6:36 PM PDT

"Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind." - Albert Einstien

Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron
Um, I'll point out that me, Coma, and I believe cobra (if he's been in this thread) have pointed out things that have been blown out of proportion and how it could work. Near every time (If memory is right) the statements have been ignored/disregarded.

If we cannot accept that things change over time, then they might as well stop releasing halo lore information.

We can come up with ways things could work or may work all day long. But that isn't how they are. As it is, the canon has enormous holes and inconsistencies that just don't create a solid canonical universe.

  • 05.02.2011 1:21 AM PDT


Posted by: UL7IM4 G33K
Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron
Um, I'll point out that me, Coma, and I believe cobra (if he's been in this thread) have pointed out things that have been blown out of proportion and how it could work. Near every time (If memory is right) the statements have been ignored/disregarded.

If we cannot accept that things change over time, then they might as well stop releasing halo lore information.

We can come up with ways things could work or may work all day long. But that isn't how they are. As it is, the canon has enormous holes and inconsistencies that just don't create a solid canonical universe.


Yes, if we take what we have as the only information. It's an honest fact we may be missing pieces.

Bungie, and 343, both consider Reach canon. Both groups have shown that they care about the lore greatly. So, when they now say Reach does fit in with the rest they are simply lying?

I mean, if we want to argue if the things appear to 'break' canon at a glance, sure Reach could. But the title of this topic is 'unexplainable'. I'm fairly sure if we can come up with a way it'd work, that's an explanation.

*Sigh* I'm dead serious that half the time it sounds like the people against Reach are simply are ignoring everything in it's 'favor' because they don't like the campaign for some reason, and thus MUST prove it 'breaks canon' so it should not be considered canon.

  • 05.02.2011 2:39 AM PDT

"Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind." - Albert Einstien

Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron
Yes, if we take what we have as the only information. It's an honest fact we may be missing pieces.

Bungie, and 343, both consider Reach canon. Both groups have shown that they care about the lore greatly. So, when they now say Reach does fit in with the rest they are simply lying?

I mean, if we want to argue if the things appear to 'break' canon at a glance, sure Reach could. But the title of this topic is 'unexplainable'. I'm fairly sure if we can come up with a way it'd work, that's an explanation.

*Sigh* I'm dead serious that half the time it sounds like the people against Reach are simply are ignoring everything in it's 'favor' because they don't like the campaign for some reason, and thus MUST prove it 'breaks canon' so it should not be considered canon.

What irritates me most is that they say it fits perfectly with the Fall of Reach book before the retcon was enacted on that book. And it doesn't just conflict with Fall of Reach but Ghosts of Onyx and First Strike. It really does seem like they forgot what their own canon was and now they are rushing to patch it up. I enjoyed Reach's campaign, but it didn't have to be so distant from the original story.

  • 05.02.2011 10:37 AM PDT

Well, us here haven't said they fit perfectly. I'll honestly give you the PoA landing on, that's kinda out-there and such.

  • 05.02.2011 11:02 AM PDT

CABOOSE RULES!!!
Red vs blue fans

For those mentioning Carter, Emile, and Jun being to old to augment are forgetting that S-III are far less invasive than S-II and had a higher survival rate which could allow for augmentation during puberty in a decreased capacity.

  • 05.02.2011 2:22 PM PDT

"Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind." - Albert Einstien

Posted by: madgaurd1989
For those mentioning Carter, Emile, and Jun being to old to augment are forgetting that S-III are far less invasive than S-II and had a higher survival rate which could allow for augmentation during puberty in a decreased capacity.

Actually, IMO that would make far more sense. A section of ONI using the Spartan III process to augment teens, therefore creating Noble. That would allow them to be III's while not being a part of any particular company. Then you would have Alpha, Beta and Gama S-III's for the Noble project.

  • 05.02.2011 3:08 PM PDT

the books are not official GAME canon

  • 05.02.2011 8:51 PM PDT

I apologize for not reading all eighty-two pages of this thread, but I would like to quote something Markus Lheto said on September 15, 2010:

Posted by: Markus Lheto
We did take some liberty. In the book, I believe the Pillar of Autumn is in orbit at a docking station. We talked to [Eric] Nylund [the author of "The Fall of Reach"] about the whole event structure and we got the chronology of it down to where we felt comfortable with the little bends we were taking to make sure it worked best for the game and best for our game's fiction. We've had discrepancies with Nylund on what we believe is canon and what should be made sacred in the canon. But that's always the case when you have others outside of Bungie building the fiction for the "Halo" universe.

  • 05.02.2011 9:05 PM PDT

"Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind." - Albert Einstien

Posted by: Markus Lheto
We did take some liberty. In the book, I believe the Pillar of Autumn is in orbit at a docking station. We talked to [Eric] Nylund [the author of "The Fall of Reach"] about the whole event structure and we got the chronology of it down to where we felt comfortable with the little bends we were taking to make sure it worked best for the game and best for our game's fiction. We've had discrepancies with Nylund on what we believe is canon and what should be made sacred in the canon. But that's always the case when you have others outside of Bungie building the fiction for the "Halo" universe.

Except the PoA wasn't in a docking station, it wasn't even in orbit at the time of Reach's attack. It was practically out of the entire system. Again, this just further proves their ignorance of their own canon.

  • 05.02.2011 9:07 PM PDT


Posted by: UL7IM4 G33K
Posted by: Markus Lheto
We did take some liberty. In the book, I believe the Pillar of Autumn is in orbit at a docking station. We talked to [Eric] Nylund [the author of "The Fall of Reach"] about the whole event structure and we got the chronology of it down to where we felt comfortable with the little bends we were taking to make sure it worked best for the game and best for our game's fiction. We've had discrepancies with Nylund on what we believe is canon and what should be made sacred in the canon. But that's always the case when you have others outside of Bungie building the fiction for the "Halo" universe.

Except the PoA wasn't in a docking station, it wasn't even in orbit at the time of Reach's attack. It was practically out of the entire system. Again, this just further proves their ignorance of their own canon.


Or they are not referencing the time of the 30th. The PoA was in an orbital docking station.

  • 05.02.2011 9:17 PM PDT

"Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind." - Albert Einstien

Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron
Or they are not referencing the time of the 30th. The PoA was in an orbital docking station.

The attack took place on a single day in the book. What other day could they be referring to?

  • 05.02.2011 11:56 PM PDT

"What do you hear?"
"Nothing but the rain."
"Then grab your gun and bring in the cat."
"Boom, boom, boom!"

Posted by: UL7IM4 G33K
Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron
Or they are not referencing the time of the 30th. The PoA was in an orbital docking station.

The attack took place on a single day in the book. What other day could they be referring to?


There's enough of a time-gap between when the PoA was in space and when it docked at the boneyard.

The space OP took place in the early hours of the 30th, between 0500 and 0700.

Noble Team reaches Azod by 1700 hours. Enough time for it to be in both places. The only issue(s) brought up are how it docked and maybe the Chief not rejoining the battle. I do have an idea for the last one.

Chief goes into cryo when Halsey sends the message to Keyes to return to Reach. Chief wouldn't have known that the PoA was going back.

Also Lehto said he believes the ship was docked in an orbital station. He was taking a wild guess and couldn't remember off hand. We've all done that. No need to crucify him for it.

Just my take on the whole thing.

  • 05.03.2011 1:29 AM PDT

Posted by: UL7IM4 G33K
Adding in drag is not the same thing as counter-thrust. It is about surface area. A parachute can slow down a landing pod by having a large surface area that catches a sufficient amount of air. A thruster on the other hand would have to produce enough force not only to slow the thing down but to land it. And remember, the parachutes on landing pods allowed the pod to land in the ocean. The Autumn would have to perform something along the lines of a Shuttle landing and the Shuttle uses parachutes to slow it on the runway, not to slow its descent.


They are very similar principles meant to achieve the same affect, slowing the descent of a craft coming in from outer space. I know how the shuttle lands, that's why I used the Saturn V as a comparison and not the shuttle.

Not knowing means that that there is no reason to assume. Yes, it may be important but how or why is a mystery. Assuming that it has any importance is premature. If the original story remains unaffected whatever the information is will have been unimportant in regards to the main halo storyline. IF it remains unaffected.

I very highly doubt that it was thrown in there for no reason at all. And assuming it is important or has any importance is not premature if it is stated in the game that it is of vast importance. And also, we have a trilogy currently going that details many things and solves many mysteries of the Forerunner era. The information under SWORD Base could very easily tie into the Forerunner Trilogy, or build off a development within it to be revealed in either the set of books set after Halo 3 or lead into something important in Halo 4.

I doubt that having a Covenant carrier appear out of nowhere would get the reaction "Naw, we got this!" from the UNSC.

Are you referring to the Long Night of Solace? 'Cause I wasn't, I was talking about the fleet that comes in after it was destroyed. And the UNSC knows the Covenant's limits, they know what they can safely take on and neutralize.

I'm sorry if you aren't the one who posted it. I'm referring to an image on the Halo Reach section of this site that is an excerpt from Kurt's journal or something.

Oh, ok, I know what you're talking about now. Yeah, I don't think I was the one who linked it, I maybe have referred to it as evidence but I never provided a link to it that I remember.

I understand that. But does that change the fact the new information DOESN'T FIT? Can we not discuss the fact they don't fit and not assume that the errors present will just miraculously fix themselves down the line? What about the fact the new information does, as you say, "discard" or completely disregards old canon? Another thing this thread is about. Now you are just contradicting yourself seeing as earlier you were saying that they don't conflict and don't disregard each other yet here you are saying they do.

I'm not contradicting myself at all. I don't think that the events of Reach and TFoR can't fit. I'm talking about conflicts in general, meaning if there is no way they can fit. Such as the original release of TFoR saying that Elites were not encountered until Reach and other media portraying Elites being fought throughout the war. That sort of situation would be where the new is the canon and the old is either tweaked or is no longer canon.

Visual information can be MOUNDS more helpful. Sure they aren't experience but hell, would you rather go into a warzone not knowing what it looks like or what your up against? Cause you are essentially saying that training someone for X environment is futile unless you put them there.

I'm not saying that it's futile, I'm saying it can't compare to the actual situation or enemy itself. Visual information can indeed be helpful, I'm not disputing that, I'm merely saying that even with visuals of Brutes (which the UNSC had a general lack of intel on) and how they fight the person fighting them would still be at a slight disadvantage.

THIS IS NOT ABOUT WHICH IS RIGHT! ITS ABOUT IF IT MAKES SENSE! DO YOU NOT GET IT? You seem to keep thinking that I'm arguing that new canon is WRONG. I'm not. I am saying it DOESN'T FIT. And it doesn't. Even if the new canon is more right it still doesn't mix with the old canon well. How hard headed can you possibly be?

If I gave you a book where it said the chicken crossed the road. And then published another book that stated that a man saw the chicken crossing the stream. Just because the newer book is the latest form of canon, would you not ask why the chicken is suddenly crossing a stream and not a road? That is what this thread is in essence! Yet you seem to think its about old canon being more right than new canon.


If one is a higher authority than the other (IE game or new), then it doesn't have to make sense. I think we're both a bit hard headed in this argument :P We've both made arguments that have blown completely over the other's head.

And as for your analogy, no, if there is a clearly defined process of how things rank, then no, I would not be asking why they did not match. I would not necessarily like it, but I would not question it. I view the Prequel Trilogy of Star Wars much the same way, I dislike what George Lucas did with it, but I don't really question why some things don't entirely match up.


Yes, which she found AFTER the battle of Reach in the book First Strike. Now we can make this confliction count add up to THREE books.


Actually no you really can't, Halsey's Journal fixed whatever would have been a conflict between Reach and Ghosts of Onyx regarding Halsey and Noble Team (unless you are referring to First Strike).

If we can't make claims then this thread is pointless. This who thread is about the FACTS the canon doesn't add up. Not the if, might be or could be's of future canon and retcons.

We shouldn't make baseless claims such as "x breaks canon" or "x is non-canon" because there are imagined or actual conflicts with previous sources is what I am saying.

Again, read above. If you assume the whole puzzle isn't present then you have no reason to be in this thread. We all understand the puzzle pieces aren't there. But currently the puzzle given has pieces that don't fit with each other and that is what we are discussing. The fact that they don't fit. So again, I repeat myself, stop using "we don't know the whole picture" as an argument in this thread. It is entirely counterproductive.

If things don't fit or don't seem to fit we should be discussing them. And by discussing I mean proposing theories or ideas on how they can be reconciled, not one side saying "there are errors, and there is no way they can match the previously established material" and the other saying "ok, the two conflict, how can they still work", or "ok, these look like they conflict at first glance, but they really don't, there's still a question of how they match though, let's try and figure it out", or a mix of the previous two.

And I am not really using "we don't know the whole picture" as evidence. I am using to show that claims such as "x breaks canon" are baseless assumptions. Because we really don't know how things link. So what may appear to conflict or not be linked may in fact connect very nicely but they only seem to not to because we don't have the whole picture, or they are completely inseparable events.

  • 05.03.2011 7:54 AM PDT

Coma's final bit is what I've been saying. We have one side going, "Well, this is how they could fit." and the other going "There is no way in hell the two can fit together!"

  • 05.03.2011 8:44 AM PDT


Posted by: kit_103
Posted by: UL7IM4 G33K
Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron
Or they are not referencing the time of the 30th. The PoA was in an orbital docking station.

The attack took place on a single day in the book. What other day could they be referring to?


There's enough of a time-gap between when the PoA was in space and when it docked at the boneyard.

The space OP took place in the early hours of the 30th, between 0500 and 0700.

Noble Team reaches Azod by 1700 hours. Enough time for it to be in both places. The only issue(s) brought up are how it docked and maybe the Chief not rejoining the battle. I do have an idea for the last one.

Chief goes into cryo when Halsey sends the message to Keyes to return to Reach. Chief wouldn't have known that the PoA was going back.

Also Lehto said he believes the ship was docked in an orbital station. He was taking a wild guess and couldn't remember off hand. We've all done that. No need to crucify him for it.

Just my take on the whole thing.


Indeed, quite a few of us trying to make sense of Reach and TFoR have pointed out several times that the events of the space battle take place in the early morning hours on the 30th, and then the final level of Reach takes place late in the afternoon (around 4:00 I believe). That is a pretty big gap of time, quite enough for it to pick up the remnants of Blue Team and the marines present on Station Gamma, and then take the Autumn down to Reach to pick up the Cortana Fragment.

Chief could be in Cryo, but I don't think it likely, he was probably either doing some sort of defense on the other side of the Autumn, or he was ordered by Keyes to remain on the Autumn.

I agree, Lehto was merely mistaken, and he never said that was exactly how it was, he basically said that's what he remembered. And the Autumn was in space dock preparing for RED FLAG, just not during the battle. Definitely no need to crucify him or hate him for not remembering exactly what happened, even my memory's not that good, and I'm a very big Halo fan (otherwise I wouldn't be here, haha).

  • 05.03.2011 9:00 AM PDT

What do people think of this?

How Reach's Story Would've Fit the Canon

  • 05.03.2011 12:49 PM PDT