Bungie Universe
This topic has moved here: Subject: Unexplainable errors in the Halo canon. (Spoilers)
  • Subject: Unexplainable errors in the Halo canon. (Spoilers)
Subject: Unexplainable errors in the Halo canon. (Spoilers)

"Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind." - Albert Einstien

Posted by: OrderedComa
They are very similar principles meant to achieve the same affect, slowing the descent of a craft coming in from outer space. I know how the shuttle lands, that's why I used the Saturn V as a comparison and not the shuttle.

Except the Saturn V never landed on solid ground. It landed in the ocean (and used parachutes, not thrusters). Unless you mean the Lunar Lander landing on the surface of the moon. The only reason that worked was because of the moon's gravity being so low and the craft being incredibly light.

The PoA is an entirely different beast. I can understand Frigates being able to fly around the surface, but the PoA was a much larger ship.

I very highly doubt that it was thrown in there for no reason at all. And assuming it is important or has any importance is not premature if it is stated in the game that it is of vast importance. And also, we have a trilogy currently going that details many things and solves many mysteries of the Forerunner era. The information under SWORD Base could very easily tie into the Forerunner Trilogy, or build off a development within it to be revealed in either the set of books set after Halo 3 or lead into something important in Halo 4.
There is no Halo 4, first off. Second it is rare that the games lead into the books directly. In fact, they never have. I agree that it may have a purpose but we will have to see if that purpose is realized within the re-creation of Halo CE that 343 is overseeing.

Are you referring to the Long Night of Solace? 'Cause I wasn't, I was talking about the fleet that comes in after it was destroyed. And the UNSC knows the Covenant's limits, they know what they can safely take on and neutralize.
If I were the UNSC, if I saw a Covenant carrier at a key planet I would immediately call back all available ships in anticipation of more Covenant arriving. Better safe than sorry. They know the location of the planet, it is only a matter of time before it gets attacked.

I'm not contradicting myself at all. I don't think that the events of Reach and TFoR can't fit. I'm talking about conflicts in general, meaning if there is no way they can fit. Such as the original release of TFoR saying that Elites were not encountered until Reach and other media portraying Elites being fought throughout the war. That sort of situation would be where the new is the canon and the old is either tweaked or is no longer canon.
It just seems like a waste to throw out old canon. It is basically taking fan effort and flushing it down a toilet and telling them to re-learn what they already know. It just seems that those who write this canon haven't even tried to make things fit.

I'm not saying that it's futile, I'm saying it can't compare to the actual situation or enemy itself. Visual information can indeed be helpful, I'm not disputing that, I'm merely saying that even with visuals of Brutes (which the UNSC had a general lack of intel on) and how they fight the person fighting them would still be at a slight disadvantage.
Well my point is I'm sure the UNSC would do everything in their power to dip the odds as much in their favor as possible.

If one is a higher authority than the other (IE game or new), then it doesn't have to make sense. I think we're both a bit hard headed in this argument :P We've both made arguments that have blown completely over the other's head.
Yes, I admit I am stubborn. But I believe that if you have established a universe that your fanbase has put effort into learning and enjoying you should try as hard as possible to remain true to what they love. Bungie has somewhat failed here.

And as for your analogy, no, if there is a clearly defined process of how things rank, then no, I would not be asking why they did not match. I would not necessarily like it, but I would not question it. I view the Prequel Trilogy of Star Wars much the same way, I dislike what George Lucas did with it, but I don't really question why some things don't entirely match up.
"He who asks a question is a fool for five minutes; he who does not ask a question remains a fool forever" - Chinese Proverb

"You can tell whether a man is clever by his answers. You can tell whether a man is wise by his questions." - Naquib Mahfouz

"The power to question is the basis of all human progress." - Indira Ghandi

"Socrates, you will remember, asked all the important questions - but he never answered any of them" - Dickson Richards

Questions are necessary. There are some things that are out of your hands but fortunately the gaming community does have an influence over the games and lore the developers create. That is how the gaming industry began and it does somewhat operate that way today.

Actually no you really can't, Halsey's Journal fixed whatever would have been a conflict between Reach and Ghosts of Onyx regarding Halsey and Noble Team (unless you are referring to First Strike).
I am referring to First Strike, and no Halsey's Journal didn't really fix much at all.

We shouldn't make baseless claims such as "x breaks canon" or "x is non-canon" because there are imagined or actual conflicts with previous sources is what I am saying.
If there is actual conflict, the these claims aren't "baseless".

If things don't fit or don't seem to fit we should be discussing them. And by discussing I mean proposing theories or ideas on how they can be reconciled, not one side saying "there are errors, and there is no way they can match the previously established material" and the other saying "ok, the two conflict, how can they still work", or "ok, these look like they conflict at first glance, but they really don't, there's still a question of how they match though, let's try and figure it out", or a mix of the previous two.

And I am not really using "we don't know the whole picture" as evidence. I am using to show that claims such as "x breaks canon" are baseless assumptions. Because we really don't know how things link. So what may appear to conflict or not be linked may in fact connect very nicely but they only seem to not to because we don't have the whole picture, or they are completely inseparable events.

They aren't baseless. But I understand your point. Just keep in mind that without questions there are no answers and my purpose here is to try and ask the questions you guys can't answer. But instead many of you just glaze over the really hard questions and give half-hearted replies or avoid the questions all together. We know the canon, and we understand that this canon will (hopefully) get mended and smoothed back into a fluid stream of events. What I am wondering is why the current canon has been rewritten. I have checked several times and it could have easily been kept unchanged. Yet here we are with an entirely new book needing to be written and a total of three books disagreeing with the most recent game.

Again, my intent is also not to "crucify" anyone. But you would think that when dealing with more than likely the most closely held Halo book in the saga they would at least read the book recently enough to recall events correctly.

[Edited on 05.03.2011 1:14 PM PDT]

  • 05.03.2011 1:12 PM PDT


Posted by: wswartzendruber
What do people think of this?

How Reach's Story Would've Fit the Canon


I think completely re-writing the story in Reach is not the proper way for the fans to go about reconciling TFoR and Reach. And some of the changes for his timeline don't make sense, for instance, if the Covenant had already obliterated everything in space before Tip of the Spear, there wouldn't have been a massive battle like in that level, the Covenant simply would have gone on a massive glassing spree and the level in New Alexandria would no longer need to take place because it would have already been glassed and gone. And also the Long Night of Solace level would no longer be taking place either as there would be no need to remove the Super Carrier from the equation if Reach is already dead and gone.

And the name of group doesn't really help their case at all, I haven't really explored the site much, but if the name is anything to go by they seem like they are arguing from the standpoint that Reach is not canon and can be completely ignored.

[Edited on 05.03.2011 1:25 PM PDT]

  • 05.03.2011 1:20 PM PDT

Um, Geek just so you know, Halo 4 is far, far more likely then a CE remake. Seeing as 343 and microsoft said remakes didn't interest them, and Frankie outright said 343 would be lazy if they didn't add to the lore of Halo.

  • 05.03.2011 2:34 PM PDT

"Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind." - Albert Einstien

Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron
Um, Geek just so you know, Halo 4 is far, far more likely then a CE remake. Seeing as 343 and microsoft said remakes didn't interest them, and Frankie outright said 343 would be lazy if they didn't add to the lore of Halo.

http://www.computerandvideogames.com/278410/news/343-working-o n-halo-1-remake-report/

It mentions the possibility of a sequel to Halo 3 later in 2012. There are multiple rumors about 343 overseeing a Halo CE remake by another studio.

  • 05.03.2011 10:52 PM PDT
  • gamertag: [none]
  • user homepage:

join Crimson Empire
Your loyalty and skill will be tested



Error: Alpha Company was wiped out completely during Operation: PROMETHEUS in 2537. Carter, Emile, and Jun should not be alive.

Proof: Halo: Ghosts of Onyx goes into quite a bit of detail on Operation: PROMETHEUS. Spartan-III Alpha Company (comprised of 300 Spartans) were sent to K7-49 on a mission to destroy plasma reactors the Covenant were using to liquefy metallurgical components.

The operation was a success, but it is explicitly stated that it cost the lives of every Spartan-III on the asteroid because they got cut off from their Calypso-class Exfiltration crafts and completely lost their unit cohesion.

Halo Reach chooses to ignore this. Carter (A-259), Emile (A-239), and Jun (A-266) are a part of Noble Team when they should have been dead years ago; Bungie have given us no explanation on how they escaped at all.


didn't it say they were removed from their respective companys before the said operations began

so sorry i disagree with u on that

  • 05.06.2011 11:01 AM PDT

This Is The Show...

Posted by: L0V3LikeRockets
Posted by: Ageless Durandal
Also, you do realize that the books are "optional" canon and are over-ridden by the game canon, right?

This is not true, it has been confirmed by Bungie before that the books were just as much canon as the games have ever been, and the reaffirmed by 343i at comic-con.

Oh and I'm not sure if this counts, but one small thing to add to your list is on top of the PoA being on Reach in Halo: Reach is that John-117 is shown in cryosleep in the bay of the ship. Not only does this not make sense for him to be in cryosleep before the ship has even left, since in tFoR he is only put in cryosleep before they make the jump to slip-space; but also because why in the world would his cryotube be in the docking bay? That doesn't even make sense just using common sense, and thats not even where we start playing as Chief in CE.

And yes I realize this was meant more to be an Easter Egg, but hey its in the game, and its not as if its in background of gameplay way off in the distance or anything. All in all I think Reach just has to be considered non-canon. There are just way to many discrepancies for it to possibly make it all work out. Entertainment wise I very much enjoyed Reach, but canon wise it was very disappointing.


also you forgot to note that in tfor, cortana had been interfaced into john's suit for the mission to capture a covenant ship and move onto capturing a prohpet. at the start of h:ce, she comments that his "architecture is alot like the pillar of autumns", to which john replies "don't get any funny ideas"... this kinda makes it sound like they had never interfaced before...

  • 05.06.2011 9:01 PM PDT

also you forgot to note that in tfor, cortana had been interfaced into john's suit for the mission to capture a covenant ship and move onto capturing a prohpet. at the start of h:ce, she comments that his "architecture is alot like the pillar of autumns", to which john replies "don't get any funny ideas"... this kinda makes it sound like they had never interfaced before...
I took that as her giving him a hard time, otherwise he wouldn't have responded the way he did.

EDIT: She also said before that, "So you did miss me?"

[Edited on 05.07.2011 5:58 PM PDT]

  • 05.07.2011 5:57 PM PDT


Posted by: StiilusOtaku
Posted by: L0V3LikeRockets
Posted by: Ageless Durandal
Also, you do realize that the books are "optional" canon and are over-ridden by the game canon, right?

This is not true, it has been confirmed by Bungie before that the books were just as much canon as the games have ever been, and the reaffirmed by 343i at comic-con.

Oh and I'm not sure if this counts, but one small thing to add to your list is on top of the PoA being on Reach in Halo: Reach is that John-117 is shown in cryosleep in the bay of the ship. Not only does this not make sense for him to be in cryosleep before the ship has even left, since in tFoR he is only put in cryosleep before they make the jump to slip-space; but also because why in the world would his cryotube be in the docking bay? That doesn't even make sense just using common sense, and thats not even where we start playing as Chief in CE.

And yes I realize this was meant more to be an Easter Egg, but hey its in the game, and its not as if its in background of gameplay way off in the distance or anything. All in all I think Reach just has to be considered non-canon. There are just way to many discrepancies for it to possibly make it all work out. Entertainment wise I very much enjoyed Reach, but canon wise it was very disappointing.


also you forgot to note that in tfor, cortana had been interfaced into john's suit for the mission to capture a covenant ship and move onto capturing a prohpet. at the start of h:ce, she comments that his "architecture is alot like the pillar of autumns", to which john replies "don't get any funny ideas"... this kinda makes it sound like they had never interfaced before...


Well before that point she'd never inside a ship before, she'd already been bonded with Chief's suit so to speak, she was merely commenting that his suit wasn't that different from the Autumn after coming out of the ship, which before then she had never been in before.

  • 05.07.2011 6:02 PM PDT

Oh, and something else. If this "definitive edition" comes out next month and affirms the main outline of the previous two editions, then what? Does it override the game because it came out later, or does it remain noncanonical due to it being a book?

EDIT: Interesting. Barnes and Noble is stating that the 2010 reprint is the second edition of the book. This makes sense. But they're also saying that the 2011 print is the first edition of its series. This tells me that it contains major changes.

[Edited on 05.07.2011 6:16 PM PDT]

  • 05.07.2011 6:08 PM PDT


Posted by: wswartzendruber
Oh, and something else. If this "definitive edition" comes out next month and affirms the main outline of the previous two editions, then what? Does it override the game because it came out later, or does it remain noncanonical due to it being a book?

EDIT: Interesting. Barnes and Noble is stating that the 2010 reprint is the second edition of the book. This makes sense. But they're also saying that the 2011 print is the first edition of its series. This tells me that it contains major changes.


Why do you think a few date-changes of the battle (The very end of the book) make the entire thing non-canon?

[Edited on 05.07.2011 6:26 PM PDT]

  • 05.07.2011 6:16 PM PDT

I don't understand your question.

EDIT: What do you mean by "the better?"

[Edited on 05.07.2011 6:22 PM PDT]

  • 05.07.2011 6:21 PM PDT


Posted by: wswartzendruber
I don't understand your question.

EDIT: What do you mean by "the better?"


Feh, waking up from nap.

Meant "Battle".

  • 05.07.2011 6:26 PM PDT

While the entire book hasn't been nullified, I would argue that the last 1/3 has. That is what I should've said.

  • 05.07.2011 6:30 PM PDT

Signatures are for squares.

Posted by: wswartzendruber
Oh, and something else. If this "definitive edition" comes out next month and affirms the main outline of the previous two editions, then what? Does it override the game because it came out later, or does it remain noncanonical due to it being a book?

EDIT: Interesting. Barnes and Noble is stating that the 2010 reprint is the second edition of the book. This makes sense. But they're also saying that the 2011 print is the first edition of its series. This tells me that it contains major changes.


Woah, thanks for this link. I was going to go buy the Fall of Reach reprint to complete my collection(it's the last book I need to buy.) Now I'll just wait for this edition, thanks for the save. :P

  • 05.07.2011 7:29 PM PDT

The current edition is fullsize paperback. This upcoming one is mass market paperback (smaller).

  • 05.07.2011 8:11 PM PDT

Signatures are for squares.

Posted by: wswartzendruber
The current edition is fullsize paperback. This upcoming one is mass market paperback (smaller).


Aw damn it.

The whole reason I'm rebuying the first three books is so they match the rest of my collection...

  • 05.07.2011 8:16 PM PDT

The Fall of Reach
1. Large paperback, not "Definitive Edition"
2. Small paperback, "Definitive Edition"

The Flood
1. Large paperback, not "Definitive Edition"

First Strike
1. Large paperback, "Definitive Edition"

It's all screwed up.

  • 05.07.2011 8:36 PM PDT

Who has the Definitive Edition of First Strike? Does it still say that Banshees have pilot seats, and that two SPARTAN-IIs in Mark V armor can fit in one?

  • 05.08.2011 12:02 PM PDT


Posted by: wswartzendruber
Who has the Definitive Edition of First Strike? Does it still say that Banshees have pilot seats, and that two SPARTAN-IIs in Mark V armor can fit in one?


When did it say that?

  • 05.08.2011 12:24 PM PDT

Signatures are for squares.

Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron

Posted by: wswartzendruber
Who has the Definitive Edition of First Strike? Does it still say that Banshees have pilot seats, and that two SPARTAN-IIs in Mark V armor can fit in one?


When did it say that?


During the operation FIRST STRIKE when the chief used a Banshee to Save linda.

But no, it's not pilot seats. It specifically says that linda laid on top of chiefs armor.

  • 05.08.2011 2:12 PM PDT


Posted by: privet caboose
Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron

Posted by: wswartzendruber
Who has the Definitive Edition of First Strike? Does it still say that Banshees have pilot seats, and that two SPARTAN-IIs in Mark V armor can fit in one?


When did it say that?


During the operation FIRST STRIKE when the chief used a Banshee to Save linda.

But no, it's not pilot seats. It specifically says that linda laid on top of chiefs armor.



Oh, that scene.

I thought Chief forced the canopy open, and Linda simply held it like that.

  • 05.08.2011 2:18 PM PDT

Signatures are for squares.

Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron

Posted by: privet caboose
Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron

Posted by: wswartzendruber
Who has the Definitive Edition of First Strike? Does it still say that Banshees have pilot seats, and that two SPARTAN-IIs in Mark V armor can fit in one?


When did it say that?


During the operation FIRST STRIKE when the chief used a Banshee to Save linda.

But no, it's not pilot seats. It specifically says that linda laid on top of chiefs armor.



Oh, that scene.

I thought Chief forced the canopy open, and Linda simply held it like that.


Yeah, pretty much.

  • 05.08.2011 2:25 PM PDT
  •  | 
  • Fabled Legendary Member

My 50 alt
Posted by: KIBOSH
They should just make an HLG playlist then you guys can hide against each other and see how much fun it is.

As long as I know, books must follow the game not otherwise.

  • 05.09.2011 2:00 PM PDT
  • gamertag: [none]
  • user homepage:

Member of Bungie.net for nearly three years, still continuing!

Enjoy what you have and live on.

My gamertag is Elder Bias

Indeed, the books must follow the games but, only one game (Halo: Reach) is canon-breaker and should be not be included in the entire halo universe lore.

And older canon and new canon can work together if it can fuse properly without any problems.

I understand that lore had so many holes, etc. It can explained later in the future.

I can give a list that books follows the game's canon and expansion of details/storyline of the Halo.

Before any Halo games
1- Cryptum- New information about Ancient Forerunner race, etc.
Halo: Wars
1- Presequel to Halo Wars and definitive description about early setting of Human-Covenant War is Contact Harvest
2- Between in Halo Wars to Halo: CE is Cole Protocol
Halo: CE
1- Pre-sequel to CE is The Fall of Reach (Second edition)
2- Expansion of CE is The Flood (Second Edition)
Halo: 2
1- it has set up in between of Halo: CE and 2 is First Strike (Second Edition)
2- Between from Halo: CE to Halo 3 is Ghosts of Onyx
Halo: 3

That's my sense of canon followed by the books and games.

Notice I didn't include the Halo: Reach because I believe it broke the main canon with Halo, so I decided to not include it. Halo: Reach is simply designed for all types of fun and only applies to casual players. Personally, I think that 343 Industries will follow the canon of halo strictly during creating new Halo games in the future.

[Edited on 05.09.2011 5:20 PM PDT]

  • 05.09.2011 5:18 PM PDT


Posted by: raganok99
Indeed, the books must follow the games but, only one game (Halo: Reach) is canon-breaker and should be not be included in the entire halo universe lore.

And older canon and new canon can work together if it can fuse properly without any problems.

I understand that lore had so many holes, etc. It can explained later in the future.

I can give a list that books follows the game's canon and expansion of details/storyline of the Halo.

Before any Halo games
1- Cryptum- New information about Ancient Forerunner race, etc.
Halo: Wars
1- Presequel to Halo Wars and definitive description about early setting of Human-Covenant War is Contact Harvest
2- Between in Halo Wars to Halo: CE is Cole Protocol
Halo: CE
1- Pre-sequel to CE is The Fall of Reach (Second edition)
2- Expansion of CE is The Flood (Second Edition)
Halo: 2
1- it has set up in between of Halo: CE and 2 is First Strike (Second Edition)
2- Between from Halo: CE to Halo 3 is Ghosts of Onyx
Halo: 3

That's my sense of canon followed by the books and games.

Notice I didn't include the Halo: Reach because I believe it broke the main canon with Halo, so I decided to not include it. Halo: Reach is simply designed for all types of fun and only applies to casual players. Personally, I think that 343 Industries will follow the canon of halo strictly during creating new Halo games in the future.


Reach and TFoR can be reconciled quite easily. And anyway, as you said, the games take precedence in authority over the books. So it really doesn't matter if Reach and TFoR contradict or not as Reach has higher authority, however the two are completely reconcilable, and a lot of what is seemingly broken between Reach and TFoR was explained in Halsey's Journal or information here on Bungie.net.

  • 05.09.2011 7:34 PM PDT